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Any Informatics Pharmacists out there??
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I thought this was suppose to be a relaxing job...Hell if I know.
If I can take physical chemistry for 1 year (hell)....I can do this rotation for 5 weeks...(actually 3 weeks and 4 days left) so let's just hope I don't faint and die of boredom after this time.
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I think my head just exploded. You took p-chem and yet didn't know the drug issues with tagamet. I think I just switched camps, you have to be a troll.
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I understand it perfectly. The insurance company I was working for however wanted to use this drug b/c there isn't anything that saids it COULD NOT be used in children. Lexicomp even said it could be used in children.
That drug is approve due to cost issues. My preceptor just wanted me to look for information that saids it could NOT be used in children and I couldn't find any.
Money rules.
I am currently taking my prerequisite for the pharmacy school. I want to be a pharmacy informatics, but i don't know what cursus i should follow; should i do a bs in Cs or a Bs in biomedical? are there universities that have pharmacy informatics cursus?
Thank you for your helps
Thank you for your helps
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If anyone is interested I heard about a two hospital Informatics position. They are doing wave f4 of CPOE. They use Meditech. Large facility over 650 beds. PM for contact info
I am glad there are other pharmacy folks interested in the transition to informatics. I am also curious about what I need to do to aid my transition into informatics.
To give a little background about myself, I have been a PharmD in Chicago for 14 years. My experience has been predominately staffing in hospitals and clinical pharmacy work in home care settings.
I caught the informatics bug when I participated in an implementation project for a local hospital system in 2003. The hospital was transitioning over to McKesson Med Manager. Ever since, I have participated in some sort of "IT" related work (e.g. writing "dummy" guides, troubleshooting). Personally, I find IT related activities more challenging and engaging than the pharmacy work LOL!
In the fall of 2012, I enrolled in a online health informatics certificate program. The coursework is challenging (in a good way) and I am doing really well. I currently feel being a pharmacist is not my calling anymore and believe informatics to be a more fulfilling career path.
Besides schooling and the experience I have, are there any things I need to do help secure a job and gain formal experience?
I am also very interested in networking with other members on this board. Please PM me.
Thanks in advance!
To give a little background about myself, I have been a PharmD in Chicago for 14 years. My experience has been predominately staffing in hospitals and clinical pharmacy work in home care settings.
I caught the informatics bug when I participated in an implementation project for a local hospital system in 2003. The hospital was transitioning over to McKesson Med Manager. Ever since, I have participated in some sort of "IT" related work (e.g. writing "dummy" guides, troubleshooting). Personally, I find IT related activities more challenging and engaging than the pharmacy work LOL!
In the fall of 2012, I enrolled in a online health informatics certificate program. The coursework is challenging (in a good way) and I am doing really well. I currently feel being a pharmacist is not my calling anymore and believe informatics to be a more fulfilling career path.
Besides schooling and the experience I have, are there any things I need to do help secure a job and gain formal experience?
I am also very interested in networking with other members on this board. Please PM me.
Thanks in advance!
Sorry to bump an ancient thread, just wondering how that worked out? I'm currently a clinical pharmacist but have been interested in getting into informatics for a while.
Has anyone else had success with a certificate program? How about with a masters degree in informatics? It seems many positions are happy if you just have experience as a hospital pharmacist. Very rarely do I see a requirement for a PGY2 in informatics. Just wondering if one of these training programs would actually be beneficial for both getting and doing the job.
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Would love to network with other informatics pharmacists. I graduated in 2012, hoping to get into a hospital and work my way into informatics. I only found a short term contract. Once it ended and I was between contracts, I enrolled in a master's program in health informatics.
Soon after my program began, I began working at Walgreens and been there since. But I just finished my master's.
Soon after my program began, I began working at Walgreens and been there since. But I just finished my master's.
Getting in is tough, I suggest networking and finding out what systems might be planning an EMR go live soon that havent already, then beg borrow and steal your way in.
Typically they will train from within thier own FTES and then also bring in consultants to help with that process. So getting in from the outside will be an uphill battle, but certainly not impossible. I'd say the Master's in Informatics is nice, but won't help as much as a PGY2 in informatics, which there are few of.
I got in as I had onc experience and the org was implementing Epic, which has the beacon oncology module. They sent me to epic training where I was certified first in Willow then in Beacon Onc. I then built and implemented Willow across many hospitals. After, I designed beacon for the system and brought that up. Implementation experience is very valuable as you start from the ground up and customize the system. I feel that most orgs are already in the process of implementing EMR so that ship has likely sailed.
In the interview I acted like I was some oncology expert in reality I'd only worked in oncology for about 18 months. My skill is designing optimal and efficient workflows for pharmacies in general and seeing errors and ways to improve. YMMV, it seems that any place now wasnts a PGY2 informatics residency before they will consider training you.
Once you have the Epic certification you're golden as you have experience that a fraction of pharmacists have.... the funny thing is most hospitals think certification= expert which couldn't be further from the truth. It takes 2-3 years with you hands in the system AFTER certification to be an even remotely competent analyst.
I have job offers coming at me daily on linked in now so I'd say it was worth it. Currently working at a tertiary academic medical center where I am will consider contract consulting when I get bored here and if the pay is high enough.
Typically they will train from within thier own FTES and then also bring in consultants to help with that process. So getting in from the outside will be an uphill battle, but certainly not impossible. I'd say the Master's in Informatics is nice, but won't help as much as a PGY2 in informatics, which there are few of.
I got in as I had onc experience and the org was implementing Epic, which has the beacon oncology module. They sent me to epic training where I was certified first in Willow then in Beacon Onc. I then built and implemented Willow across many hospitals. After, I designed beacon for the system and brought that up. Implementation experience is very valuable as you start from the ground up and customize the system. I feel that most orgs are already in the process of implementing EMR so that ship has likely sailed.
In the interview I acted like I was some oncology expert in reality I'd only worked in oncology for about 18 months. My skill is designing optimal and efficient workflows for pharmacies in general and seeing errors and ways to improve. YMMV, it seems that any place now wasnts a PGY2 informatics residency before they will consider training you.
Once you have the Epic certification you're golden as you have experience that a fraction of pharmacists have.... the funny thing is most hospitals think certification= expert which couldn't be further from the truth. It takes 2-3 years with you hands in the system AFTER certification to be an even remotely competent analyst.
I have job offers coming at me daily on linked in now so I'd say it was worth it. Currently working at a tertiary academic medical center where I am will consider contract consulting when I get bored here and if the pay is high enough.
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This is an interesting point. When I search for such positions on sites like Indeed, I rarely see PGY2 listed as a requirement. Hell, I rarely see it as a preferred qualification. Maybe there just aren't enough out there to make it a requirement for the majority of hospitals. Still, I don't know if I want to spend two years and another 15k getting a masters degree online if I am just going to get sidelined for not having a PGY2.
It's a shame I didn't graduate a few years earlier. EPIC was a fairly recent addition to my hospital, that would have been a great time to get into the field. As it stands I might just have to convince my director to get me involved with any project that involves implementing technology. Anything I can add to my resume to show competence in that area I suppose.
Dont let it stop you.... I definitely wouldn't waste the money on the MSI degree though unless your institution is footing the bill. Tailor your resume to look technology based then apply to any and all informatics jobs across the country using indeed to find them.
As long as you have hospital pharmacy experience using an EMR as and end user, you might hit, might not, but better than wasting tons of time and money on a degree or residency. If not, you are still a clinical pharmacist which is a good job itself. Personally when it comes to Epic analysts I don't see any advantage to having done residency, its just that my institution places a lot of weight on PGYs and any other letters after your name. Other places might not, and thats where you can get lucky.
As long as you have hospital pharmacy experience using an EMR as and end user, you might hit, might not, but better than wasting tons of time and money on a degree or residency. If not, you are still a clinical pharmacist which is a good job itself. Personally when it comes to Epic analysts I don't see any advantage to having done residency, its just that my institution places a lot of weight on PGYs and any other letters after your name. Other places might not, and thats where you can get lucky.
I'm glad you said this because I've just been looking for an answer one way or the other on the issue. This is such a niche field that there really isn't information out there. Of course every school will proclaim the benefits of their program, but I don't want to waste any more time and money on something I don't need.
At this point I am thinking of meeting with my director to convince him of the need for a dedicated informatics pharmacist within our department. We are part of a fairly large healthcare system and currently utilize an institution wide team, but we are a specialty hospital and could use the expertise of a specialist in our field. I don't know what sort of success I could hope for, perhaps none. If anyone has experience in trying to create your own position please share.
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I am interested in applying for epic position as my hospital is going for transition into EPIC. How much is your salary and what about benefits? Can you PM me?Starsweet - I've already gone through the training and am fully certified
Thank You.
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Just out of curiosity...what kind of salary do informatics RPh's make?
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$120-125,000 up to $135,000 in management role (public info from state university hospital)
The key here is "management role" because I know several informatics people and they make much less than that (mid 90k) because your average of the mill nurses can get these positions.
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Oh wow. That's pretty low. Thank you for sharing.
Bumping once again. I've recently been offered an informatics position, but it would require a cross country move to a less desireable location. I'm trying to decide if it's worth it, since this is the field I've been trying to break into.
For those working in the field, what is job mobility like after a few years of expetience? I really want to get this experience, but I'm also afraid of being locked into one location.
For those working in the field, what is job mobility like after a few years of expetience? I really want to get this experience, but I'm also afraid of being locked into one location.
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Someone has never used CPSI.
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What PIS system? Epic and Cerner are the biggest, while HCA from what I know uses Meditech. Will you have ADC responsibilities? IV pump? The more exposure the more marketability you will have.
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I have been told that I should focus on this field by my professors, I am a last year student and I don't have any experience with informatics.... Any recommendations? Can I contact anyone to learn more about it??
Just went through it. If you are doing Willow, there's two projects and two exams for certification. You will need to visit WI for a total of 3 trips spending 3 days of training at each time. Stay in a hotel in downtown Madison that offers bus trips to Verona where EPIC actually is. Food at EPIC is typically good as they provide breakfast and lunch. Day begins at 8:30am and ends with "lab work" at ~3:30pm.
How does one break into this field? I am very computer literate but have wasted the past 4-5 years in retail and am looking to make a switch but I feel like it's almost impossible. Any suggestions from anyone on here?
That sounds pretty cool. The Epic campus looks like a widwestern Google from what I've seen, so I'm pretty excited. I'm also hoping getting Epic certification and completing a hospital conversion will be a big career boost. I've made a few cross-country moves for jobs since graduating, and so far I keep getting lucky with the opportunities that present themselves!
Hard to give advice, man. I interned at this hospital during school and made some good relationships, after graduation I took a job at an out of state hospital but volunteered for any IT project. When my home state hospital had an informatics job I applied and got right in.
I think someone earlier in this thread mentioned retail informatics, but I can't speak to that. There are probably fewer spots because most big chains have a standard system, right? Most individual hospitals have a custom setup, so there are more opportunities there.
Best bet, based on my experience, is to get some staffing experience at a hospital, volunteer for ANYTHING tech related, be creative with your resume, and get ready to move literally anywhere.
Personally, I'm hoping the next two years of Epic conversion leads to a higher paid position in a larger city, but for now I've got a big project to focus on.
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Late to the party, but informatics pharmacist reporting in: I do Epic Beacon, but I started in Willow. Feel free to PM to network. As to how to "get in":
Students: try to gain some rotational experience (you might have to go out of your way to find them). Then, doing a PGY1/PGY2 is the most straightforward career path, though you might be able to craft a different path, depending on circumstance.
Current pharmacists: harder to transition (I have friends trying to do it). For inpatient folks, I would try to get involved in informatics projects (if you're in an academic setting/big hospital there are committees). For community/retail, it'll be much harder since the demand is mostly inpatient.
Students: try to gain some rotational experience (you might have to go out of your way to find them). Then, doing a PGY1/PGY2 is the most straightforward career path, though you might be able to craft a different path, depending on circumstance.
Current pharmacists: harder to transition (I have friends trying to do it). For inpatient folks, I would try to get involved in informatics projects (if you're in an academic setting/big hospital there are committees). For community/retail, it'll be much harder since the demand is mostly inpatient.
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I'm considering doing a PGY1, but how would that be helpful for getting into informatics?
It would enable you to complete a PGY2 in informatics or make it easier to get a hospital staffing job to get experience and volunteer for IT projects/tailor your resume towards informatics.
Personally, I didn't do a residency at all and broke into informatics after two years of hospital work. Your mileage may vary.
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By what board?
Seems kind of silly, doesn't it? Board certified informatics pharmacist. As if some stodgy academic board has the final say on what makes someone successful in that field? It makes sense for something with recognized standards of care, but when you are utilizing technology it often takes a clever or innovative mind to really excel.
Actually, I take back the statement about it making sense considering some of my most esteemed colleagues have failed the board certification test in their fields. How many of us have been in a situation where we disagreed with the clinical opinion of a colleague? Imagine they were the ones writing the test. It's kind of silly, because there are very few clear cut right answers in healthcare. It can be very subjective, and often times many paths lead the the same destination.
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Informatics is very inpatient-oriented in today's world and you need inpatient experience to establish credibility (for future employers) and to actually understand the workflow/struggles of inpatient professionals. Also, as mentioned above it helps you gateway into a pgy2 - it's possible to get into informatics without a pgy2, but you usually need more work experience (approx 3 years) as a replacement, so a pgy2 is faster imo.
PGY2 is faster, but you'll make a full salary if you can get right into staffing. It really depends on your personal situation though. I'd say this field is not meant for people that have the "I 100% cannot leave my city because X, Y, and Z."
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Starsweet - I've already gone through the training and am fully certified
I currently partaking in a Pharmacy Informatics rotation and am also curious of the salary. I have not actually figured out what I want to do once I graduate but so far this rotation seems to interest me alot! Thank you if you are able to PM me!
Hey guys! Things are about to get started with our Epic implementation. I'm excited but also sorely lacking in details on the process.
Could you explain the key differences between an application coordinator, application analyst, and principal trainer? What are the daily duties of each position? Which would you choose if you had a choice? Is consulting an option for all of them post-implementation?
Epic peeps.. just starting my certification right now. The team is hoping to stick as close to foundation as possible. How workable is it out of the gate? Did you have to make a ton of changes? We are dealing with a very tight timeline and are coming from a Meditech system that was defined by bandaid after bandaid, so we are hoping to stay as close to stock as we can. I appreciate any advice I can get.
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Well with informatics, there aren't really defined roles and roles can vary greatly between organizations. So take this with a slight grain of salt :
Application Coordinator: Most likely a project manager type role. Spearheads development and makes sure everything is on track. Provide insight on deliverables and how they are to be completed. They also make sure all the deliverables are on time and submitted. May or may not be a pharmacist. Good opportunities for growth, but can be frustrating because meeting deadlines is highly dependent on someone else.
Application Analyst: Most common role in informatics. They complete the deliverables for the hospital. For example, IV sets to be built, Protocols to be built, workflow, batches, etc. Most likely a pharmacist. Also good growth. VERY different from hospital or retail pharmacy because now you have deadlines! May need to pull overnighters to complete everything on time, but otherwise pretty flexible schedule (ups and downs).
Principal Trainer: I guess the lead trainer? Most of the lead trainers I've met are pharmacy technicians. Educate on how to use the system. How to use the tools to build, etc. Not very clinical job. They pretty much leave the thinking to the analysts. There's opportunities, but generally the pay is less because it can be done by a tech. Need lots of patience!
HTH!!!
Well crap! I had a weird feeling about being made a principal trainer as a pharmacist. Oh well, at least I'm still getting certified.
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Doe the application analyst, being a pharmacist, expected to program, dice and slice specific modules in EPIC?
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No, and that's a shame. A pharmacist who can deal with Cache objects writes their ticket in the industry, but very few informatics pharmacists are willing to go under the hood at that level. Responding to a different thread, the pay levels for informatics pharmacists in the VA are at minimum a GS-13 level (senior to clinic director grade) and easily track to GS-15. But all of those Epic positions mentioned are not stable ones, they last for about 5-10 years and then the hospital lays them off.
Also, if you paid for your degree (or being asked to) and it is not funded by the NIH-NLM Postdoctoral Fellow program, it's honestly not worth having.
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Maybe it's time for me ramp up my coding skills and try convince them that i'm the right person....
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Well,
https://learning.intersystems.com/course/view.php?id=4#section-2
Having knowledge of Cache objects changed my career trajectory even more than PharmD or graduate training (pretty sad, huh). Mainly because I could convince the civil service that I was of the few that had that skillset at the right time. Within the VA, there are very, very few who have that skillset and have RPh credentials to do cross-programming and logic error correction for pharmacy matters. This is the foundation course if you wanted to know what is going on with any federal system in healthcare (DVA VistA, DoD CHCS II AHLTA, HHS IHS RPMS, HHS BoP BEMR), any federal system concerning banking and the clearinghouse functions (Fedwire), Epic, parts of Misys, and Meditech.
The difference between Cache object script and M is that Cache warns you when your indirect calls are outside local scope. M only works with global variables, so any variable declared anywhere works in any package at any level. I usually use the example of if the National Guard Armory is a program class, then Cache shows you the availability of guns in the armory for a gunfight, but M through indirection allows you to bring a rocket launcher to a gunfight. Bringing something outside scope will work, but it'll also surprise everyone, and after the fight, your allies are going to ask where the heck did that piece come from? They are the same fundamental language, but Cache tries to prevent you from doing overkill. M, not so much.
https://learning.intersystems.com/course/view.php?id=4#section-2
Having knowledge of Cache objects changed my career trajectory even more than PharmD or graduate training (pretty sad, huh). Mainly because I could convince the civil service that I was of the few that had that skillset at the right time. Within the VA, there are very, very few who have that skillset and have RPh credentials to do cross-programming and logic error correction for pharmacy matters. This is the foundation course if you wanted to know what is going on with any federal system in healthcare (DVA VistA, DoD CHCS II AHLTA, HHS IHS RPMS, HHS BoP BEMR), any federal system concerning banking and the clearinghouse functions (Fedwire), Epic, parts of Misys, and Meditech.
The difference between Cache object script and M is that Cache warns you when your indirect calls are outside local scope. M only works with global variables, so any variable declared anywhere works in any package at any level. I usually use the example of if the National Guard Armory is a program class, then Cache shows you the availability of guns in the armory for a gunfight, but M through indirection allows you to bring a rocket launcher to a gunfight. Bringing something outside scope will work, but it'll also surprise everyone, and after the fight, your allies are going to ask where the heck did that piece come from? They are the same fundamental language, but Cache tries to prevent you from doing overkill. M, not so much.
Yikes, what's the story with this? I'm working as an Epic pharmacist now and all I've heard is that the job security is better than other informatics positions because Epic requires so much maintenance. Is that 5-10 year mark typically the time it takes to go from a basic new implementation to all feature complete and capable of working with a skeleton crew?
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Well, yeah, there's an endpoint to development, right? The oldest implementations of Epic - UW, Allina, UMN, and somewhere else went through that cycle. Even when UMN got smart about it and started dragging it's feet, it'll happen. The way it works is that when the development of order sets and protocols more or less ends, they will keep the one, but every other task pretty much is handled by HIMS or alternate work nursing staff (cheaper by far). Some get positions with Verona in the end or with the contractors, there's a group in Minnesota, Allina, that basically outsourced all that maintenance to a consultant company. I'm sure it'll come around once your implentation is mature. Hell, you might start that consulting company yourself!
But yes, don't take my word for it. Ask the long term Epic pharmacists what happens to them. There's 5 and 10 year benchmarks for staffing. This is usually achieved through natural attrition, but if not, what happens depends on how the DoP deals with vestigial personnel (those pharmacokineticists had to go somewhere, right?).
If you are going to make a life in this industry between pharmacy and IT, I would do what the IT old timers do. Work, but use the opportunity to play around and learn the systems such that you have a command over them and not them over you. Leave knowing that part of your compensation is the ability to use the hospital as a test learning lab for technology. If you talk with IT consultants, they will take time to learn on company time. That way, when the inevitable happens, either they are in a position where they have to be suicidal to lay you off or you're comfortable going it alone. That's really true of all pharmacy, but technical pharmacy is one where if you know something, that's what makes you hireable more than a warm body. It's not rent-a-clinical-pharmacist by any stretch.
It makes sense. I just recently had my classes in Verona, and while I was there I spoke with people who worked in departments with several pharmacists. They gave the impression that it required a lot of upkeep and large staffing numbers, but a lot of these hospitals aren't in the mature phase of their Epic implementation.
I took this job for the experience and credentials and was always planning on departing for consulting once it was finished. My hope is that I get a few years of the high-paid consultant life before finding a more permanent informatics position when I was ready or when the right opportunity appeared. Part of this plan was to keep my inpatient work up to date, so I have continued to work a weekend job at a nearby hospital. In an ideal world I could always fall back on that, although the worsening market may make that more difficult than anticipated. Thus far I've been lucky enough to have a high hit rate on job applications and job offers, which I attribute to a solid work history in my field and a decent enough personality to not turn off interviewers, but the future is very uncertain in this field. Not to mention the fact that it would be hard to go back to evenings/weekends/holidays after the cushy job I have now. Hey, worst case, I sell all of my assets and move to Appalachia.
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If it works like Misys or Meditech, there's going to be a rolling period of about 15-20 years that hospitals will adopt the prevailing EHR system, so there is a lock on experienced consultants moving from place to place boostering the hospital and you're in the right timeframe at the moment if Epic becomes the dominant one. I tend to agree with those tech diffusion estimates based on the spread of DB/4 and Oracle when the upstarts Sybase (now Micro$oft SQL Server) and Hyperion Essbase offered something different. If I were going to stick around this industry, I'd have some knowledge of the underlying Intersystems Cache (and make your employer pay for it), and I'd have some knowledge of the HL7 and other message protocol systems like NCPDP.
But, I'm civil service because I don't want to work that hard about maintaining a tech edge. I know what happens to programmers and developers in the private sector all too well to believe that I'd beat the odds. The ones I went to school with in pharmacy are even now better at that aspect than I am, but choose to work pharmacy due to the lack of engagement being a huge plus. IT is always chasing the next technology, why I think it's so sexy to certain people as it promises unlimited growth to those who have the energy to pursue it just like finance.
If you do ever end up in Verona, we should get a couple of drinks together. I'm often there consulting when I don't have my government hat on. It'll be interesting if Epic can put together the bid to take on VA and DoD for an new EHR.
I thought I replied to this last night, but it looks like my account was mistakenly and temporarily banned for suspicion of being a spam bot and now all of my posts have been deleted. Weeeelllll, anyway, I'll definitely take you up on the drink offer if I ever relocate that way. Madison seemed like a really nice town when I visited in July. I'm not sure I could handle it in the winter though. I should spring for the cold-weather package when I get my next car.
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You're value should be in that you are a PHARMACIST and has an understanding of the pharmacy needs and wants. I can't imagine laying off an informatics pharmacist. Who will build new drugs, corrects coding, maintains BOP standards, drives IV innovation(s), medication delivery innovation(s), order set builds, etc
From my understanding informatics is now a PGY2 residency, nearly 30 of them offered in the country.
To be a good informatics pharmacist you first have to be a good pharmacist. Understand workflow, efficiency, safety, and regulatory compliance. Be able to act as a middleman between doctors/nurses/pharmacists and the actual coders. Be able to extract meaningful information from a mountain of data.
To be a good informatics pharmacist you first have to be a good pharmacist. Understand workflow, efficiency, safety, and regulatory compliance. Be able to act as a middleman between doctors/nurses/pharmacists and the actual coders. Be able to extract meaningful information from a mountain of data.
