Any dentists out there struggling with loans?

[Pablo Sanchez]

So with a new week ahead:

1. The confirmed COVID-19 cases will pass 800,000 in the US, deaths will pass 50,000 - meaning 6-7% of confirmed cases die from infection (much higher than the projected 1-2% many models predicted). These are horrible numbers, but that won’t stop some governors from re-opening their states in little over a week from now.

2. Unemployment claims numbers will be close to 30 million over the last 4 weeks. Some states declared they will be out of funds to pay unemployment benefits as early as May/June.

3. The PPE shortage will continue increase as some non-medical businesses start to order them as their employees go back to work on May 1. Creating even more backlog on medical and dental services/offices PPE orders. Specially on the N95 masks, which will not be widely available for the coming months.

4. We could see more protests on state capitols - as Trump rallies more angry people on twitter, to pressure their governors to open their states. Possible early signs of unrest in some parts of the country, as people slowly start to get desperate.

5. Congress will rush to pass more payroll stimulus for small businesses, but again will not be enough and will be depleted within days, as banks will focus on helping the businesses that need large transactions, leaving very small businesses little to borrow - and the final nail in the coffin for them to close for good.

Let’s hope I’m wrong, but this is the direction the country and our economy is heading in the short term.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Be careful! You can't just take the number of deaths and divide it by the number of confirmed cases to calculate the death rate. There are a great deal of people who have not been tested, presumably those who have not had a severe case of the disease. Dr. Fauci, himself, estimates that between 25% and 50% of cases are asymptomatic. The lower death rates you see are coming from mathematic models taking these people into account. We won't truly know the death rate until large scale testing is done to know who has actually had the disease. I assure you the death rate is not 6-7%. There are a decent number of people out there who don't even know that they had covid-19.

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[Cold Front]

Be careful! You can't just take the number of deaths and divide it by the number of confirmed cases to calculate the death rate. There are a great deal of people who have not been tested, presumably those who have not had a severe case of the disease. Dr. Fauci, himself, estimates that between 25% and 50% of cases are asymptomatic. The lower death rates you see are coming from mathematic models taking these people into account. We won't truly know the death rate until large scale testing is done to know who has actually had the disease. I assure you the death rate is not 6-7%. There are a decent number of people out there who don't even know that they had covid-19.

I was just going off the official numbers from John Hopkins. Also, the deaths are based on people who tested positive and then died in a care facility (hospitals, nursing homes, cruise ships, etc). I agree, there are a lot of people who died and were not tested at all - mainly because of the lack of mass testing, and the available/limited test kits being supplied to medical facilities that “requested” them. Every governor keeps saying “we need test kits” every day - basically taking every available test kit and using them for patients at their hospitals. For example, Texas tested only 300 people a week or so ago - at the entire state. For all we know, the dead could be as high as 10 times of what was reported, maybe less. Like you said, will never know the true values of the infected and the dead. Eventually, a range of the infected and the dead will be published.

Just going off the data, and on average, about 20% of the total people tested so far were positive. So if you look at the US population, about 330 million, some 60-70M people could eventually be testing positive. As far as the death numbers, 6-7% of that number would mean about 3-4 millions could be at risk of dying before a vaccine becomes available. This is just a personal early analysis - and I hope I’m wrong.


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[Blueshirts]

I'm in NY, it took 5 weeks for the state to get back to me to get tested for covid. The numbers of infected and therefore mortality rate are EXTREMELY OFF. The testing protocol is not effecient at all. I could do an AMA about all this, but not sure if I want to stay more anonymous, considering it would require it's own thread.

 

[Pablo Sanchez]

I'm in NY, it took 5 weeks for the state to get back to me to get tested for covid. The numbers of infected and therefore mortality rate are EXTREMELY OFF. The testing protocol is not effecient at all. I could do an AMA about all this, but not sure if I want to stay more anonymous, considering it would require it's own thread.

A recent study out of Stanford, still yet to be peer reviewed, suggests a death rate between 0.12% and 0.2%. Much lower than is being reported.

 

[Blueshirts]

A recent study out of Stanford, still yet to be peer reviewed, suggests a death rate between 0.12% and 0.2%. Much lower than is being reported.

I honestly would not be surprised by those numbers at all. I have complex feelings about the situation from having been inundated with press reports, knowing lots of family members who work at the hospitals, and now being personally effected by the virus. It’s difficult to dissect exactly what my final opinion is given that I feel like there is a lot of information that currently exists, and maybe even a lack of information that we have or at least that the public has at this moment. I know of people who through the grapevine who have presumably succumbed to death, but no one personally, so it is possible that my experience is coloring my newfound viewpoint differently than others.

Something that I can say is that I do think that the stigma of being infected with COVID is going to make lots of people not want to share their experience or even report it, or their symptom profile/lack of overwhelming symptoms may make them think it is something else. Overall, this taints the pool of information that we have in general.

 

[P7898]

To add. It is funny that the NY times said dentists and dental hygienists are at most risk for COVID 19. Yet I have failed to find a dentist or a dental hygienist to have had it. Meanwhile there are many other professions that show cases. What is the deal with that? Even in emergencies we use aerosol sprays. Anyways rant over.

 

[AONLINE]

How about Midwest states that are not that heavily affected by the virus? Any speculation about re-opening timeline?

 

[mmc12]

To add. It is funny that the NY times said dentists and dental hygienists are at most risk for COVID 19. Yet I have failed to find a dentist or a dental hygienist to have had it. Meanwhile there are many other professions that show cases. What is the deal with that? Even in emergencies we use aerosol sprays. Anyways rant over.

Just because you don't know anyone who has it doesn't mean that there hasn't been any dentists that have gotten it.

Here's one for you

Ascension doctor dies from suspected COVID-19

Loved ones and co-workers of a doctor employed at Ascension Macomb-Oakland Hospital in Warren are mourning his death from suspected COVID-19.

www.macombdaily.com

 

[P7898]

Just because you don't know anyone who has it doesn't mean that there hasn't been any dentists that have gotten it.

Here's one for you

Ascension doctor dies from suspected COVID-19

Loved ones and co-workers of a doctor employed at Ascension Macomb-Oakland Hospital in Warren are mourning his death from suspected COVID-19.

www.macombdaily.com

Unfortunately that was the only one I have found. Bless him. I am pertaining to private practice setting not in hospitals.

 

[mmc12]

Unfortunately that was the only one I have found. Bless him. I am pertaining to private practice setting not in hospitals.

Go to dentaltown.com and there are several others listed. I also know of a couple of dentists/hygienists that have gotten it.

 

[P7898]

Will certainly look. On the flip side this drug is very promising: Gilead data suggests coronavirus patients are responding to treatment

There will more than likely be drugs on the market in the next 3 months that can manage the symptoms which is why people are dying. If that is the case, then there will be less pressure on a vaccine so maybe they won't skip steps and turn people into zombies (just trying to be positive)!

 

[allantois]

This is absurd. They are throwing every kind of drug at this thing

 

[Blueshirts]

This is absurd. They are throwing every kind of drug at this thing

When you get covid the symptoms aren't consistent every day, it's like having multiple different viruses consecutively, it's very odd in how it presents itself.

 

[cluelessdr]

I think you're looking for personal anecdotes which I can't really provide, but generally speaking student loans are making an enormous impact on new graduates live. Last I heard the ADA published an average new graduate indebtedness of $285k in 2018 -- keep in mind this includes all the people with military scholarships, NHSC scholarships, and parental assistance. There are a huge number of people without any of those three that are graduating with far more than $285k in debt.

Say you're a lucky one and you come out with only $300k in debt at around 6% interest.

You don't have family in dentistry or a practice to walk into, so you get an associate job right out of school that pays you $500/day or a percentage of collections. You're exceeding your daily minimum and averaging $800/day, working 5 days a week and taking 2 weeks vacation a year. Your pre-tax take home is $200k, after taxes it goes to $130k, leaving you about $10,500/month to live on. Your 10-year standard repayment monthly payment is about $3400. Now you have $7000 a month to live on -- rent/mortgage, food, insurance (car, life, disability, home owners, etc), recreation, gifts, cell phone, clothes, etc. And you haven't even contributed to retirement accounts yet.

If your loan indebtedness is $400k, that's $4400/month. $500k, $5500/month. You can see how bleak that scenario is.

Some will say just do IDR, pay the minimum, and wait 20 or 25 years for the loan forgiveness. Invest the difference between your minimum payment and the 10-year standard repayment. Use the invested funds to pay for the eventual "tax bomb."

But there are problems with that -- if you have the devotion to not touch that "extra" money for 25 years, then you have the devotion to make the lifestyle sacrifices to pay off the loan in 10-years. I think the far more likely scenario is that you end up making allowances for yourself over time, and that difference that was supposed to be invested diligently ends up being a down payment on a tesla, or something else you can't afford.

Then there's the psychological strain of having hundreds of thousands of dollars of student loan debt in the back of your mind, constantly growing, that you're relying entirely on the federal government to forgive in 20 or 25 years. That's a long time.

So in my opinion there are only four options for people who only have acceptances to schools that will put them back $400k, 500k+
1. Don't go to dental school, choose a different profession
2. Understand and adhere to the lifestyle sacrifices that are required to pay down the debt on a 10-year standard repayment (or sooner)
3. Be laser focused on buying a general practice where your income can increase dramatically -- this is way easier said than done, I'm sure
4. Specialize after dental school, which automatically increases your income floor

i mean what else would you do if you only got accepted to private school of 100k/year? what other career paths?

 

[deleted972255]

i mean what else would you do if you only got accepted to private school of 100k/year? what other career paths?

Go into computer science-if you are sharp enough to get a job at google or facebook you will make more than most dentists ever will.

 

[wannagiveup]

i mean what else would you do if you only got accepted to private school of 100k/year? what other career paths?

Nursing. CRNAs have it made from what I've read online. I guess a major downside is that you don't have full autonomy and if something happens to your license, no hospital will hire you.

 

[ToothJockey]

Go into computer science-if you are sharp enough to get a job at google or facebook you will make more than most dentists ever will.

No kidding, I had no clue how much those guys made until my some of my CS friends started getting offers at Facebook/Microsoft/Amazon etc.
To be fair my university is ranked top 5 in CS, so I'm dealing with the cream of the crop here

If you wanna see the pay progression:

Levels.fyi | Salaries & Tools to Level Up Your Career

Search 300k+ salaries for different companies, job titles, career levels, and locations. Explore our tools to help you get paid more!

www.levels.fyi

 

[Anondds87]

No kidding, I had no clue how much those guys made until my some of my CS friends started getting offers at Facebook/Microsoft/Amazon etc.
To be fair my university is ranked top 5 in CS, so I'm dealing with the cream of the crop here

If you wanna see the pay progression:

Levels.fyi | Salaries & Tools to Level Up Your Career

Search 300k+ salaries for different companies, job titles, career levels, and locations. Explore our tools to help you get paid more!

www.levels.fyi

It is a joke that people go into so much debt to become dentists looking at this chart. I wish I knew this before dental school and I dont even have much debt

 

[Anondds87]

No kidding, I had no clue how much those guys made until my some of my CS friends started getting offers at Facebook/Microsoft/Amazon etc.
To be fair my university is ranked top 5 in CS, so I'm dealing with the cream of the crop here

If you wanna see the pay progression:

Levels.fyi | Salaries & Tools to Level Up Your Career

Search 300k+ salaries for different companies, job titles, career levels, and locations. Explore our tools to help you get paid more!

www.levels.fyi

What university did you go to?

 

[deleted972255]

It is a joke that people go into so much debt to become dentists looking at this chart. I wish I knew this before dental school and I dont even have much debt

Getting those jobs is not easy, you have to be pretty intelligent-the interview process at google and facebook is pretty challenging. I’m probably going to catch flak for saying this but I’ll say it anyways-most people in dental school are probably not intelligent enough to get those jobs. Now, if we’re talking about those who end up getting into ortho or omfs, then maybe yes those people might have the raw intelligence for it, but those individuals (particularly oral surgeons) end up making quite a lot so it evens out-they basically either match those google or Facebook people or exceed it.

 

[ToothJockey]

Getting those jobs is not easy, you have to be pretty intelligent-the interview process at google and facebook is pretty challenging. I’m probably going to catch flak for saying this but I’ll say it anyways-most people in dental school are probably not intelligent enough to get those jobs. Now, if we’re talking about those who end up getting into ortho or omfs, then maybe yes those people might have the raw intelligence for it, but those individuals (particularly oral surgeons) end up making quite a lot so it evens out-they basically either match those google or Facebook people or exceed it.

Honestly I disagree. I'm actual friends with people who have gotten offers at FAANG+ companies. We are about the same level of intelligence, and I would say we both work equally as hard (they do internships, I do extracirriculars etc.). I actually have a higher GPA than every single one of them, but to be fair CS is a harder major than Biology. I'm sure if I pursued CS -> FAANG with the same intensity that I pursue D School, I would have seen similar levels of success. I also come from a target school so I understand my perspective may be biased.

Remember than only 2% of the US population has a doctorate degree. If someone can get into dental school, they are already more educationally accomplished than 98% of the population.

What university did you go to?

I'll PM you

 

[cluelessdr]

No kidding, I had no clue how much those guys made until my some of my CS friends started getting offers at Facebook/Microsoft/Amazon etc.
To be fair my university is ranked top 5 in CS, so I'm dealing with the cream of the crop here

If you wanna see the pay progression:

Levels.fyi | Salaries & Tools to Level Up Your Career

Search 300k+ salaries for different companies, job titles, career levels, and locations. Explore our tools to help you get paid more!

www.levels.fyi

i already took 2 gap years and feel like im behind in life. im so stressed and havent slept in days because im not sure what to do.

 

[free99]

Nursing. CRNAs have it made from what I've read online. I guess a major downside is that you don't have full autonomy and if something happens to your license, no hospital will hire you.

You're understating how much effort, time, and money goes into becoming a CRNA. By 2025 CRNAs will be required to go through doctoral training for the degree, which also costs a small fortune. They also must first have a certain number of years working as an RN, usually in a critical care environment which can be very taxing. There is no easy path to money except inheritance and luck.

 

[free99]

i mean what else would you do if you only got accepted to private school of 100k/year? what other career paths?

I interviewed at & got into 5 schools when I applied to DS in 2014 - UCSF, UMich, Buffalo, NYU, and LECOM. When I was going through the application process I was shadowing a GP who was a recent graduate from NYU who begged me not to go to DS if NYU was my only option, and this was 6 years ago. He came from humble beginnings - his dad was a postman - and had no familial help just like me. A few weeks later I started shadowing at another place, where it was the same situation - woman graduated from NYU and in so many words told me don't go to DS if private was your only option. I was lucky to get into a "cheap" school, but had private been my only option I honestly can't say I'd have passed on the opportunity. I'd just invested thousands of dollars into preparing to apply, applying, and interviewing. But being on the back end of it all now, even having gone to a public school, I am now the guy begging you to reconsider if $400k, $500k, $600k is your only option. Many will never get out from under that weight.

There's just too much you don't know as a pre-dent to gamble that much money on the career. This is an incredibly specific job, and if you don't like it and are a half million dollars in debt, you're in a very bad position. Even the dental specialties are all fairly similar in the sense that they're all surgical subspecialties in an outpatient setting. So what other jobs? I think medical school is a far safer option. There is such a variety of ways and settings that you can practice medicine that fit a wider array of personalities. If you aren't interested in med school, I think getting a BS in engineering or CS are both good options that lead to good careers with only a bachelors. If I could do it all over from HS, I'd have gotten into a trade like plumbing or electrical and scrapped college entirely. But that ship has long since sailed, and ill be drilling in a different hole for the next few decades. Don't get me wrong - I feel very lucky to have my path. If pvt DS and pvt peds residency was the alternative ($700k+), I'd be feeling pretty hopeless.

 

[wannagiveup]

You're understating how much effort, time, and money goes into becoming a CRNA. By 2025 CRNAs will be required to go through doctoral training for the degree, which also costs a small fortune. They also must first have a certain number of years working as an RN, usually in a critical care environment which can be very taxing. There is no easy path to money except inheritance and luck.

Are you suggesting that becoming a CRNA will cost more financially than dental school's 400k student loan debt? I believe the poster in question was mainly concerned about 400k debt and was looking for a career where he/she wouldn't have to go into such a heavy debt load. Plus when it comes to occupational strain on the body, (general) dentistry isn't far behind nursing. It was never suggested that becoming a CRNA is a walk in the park. Now if you say you will rely on IBR or PSLF programs and become a dentist at any cost, then it becomes a calculated risk.

 

[P7898]

Dudes and Dudets, I will be in $150k of debt and I think that should be the max. You should find a career or something you love doing and make it a career. That should be the first thing... not the potential money. I can find basket weavers that make $1 mill. But if you look at associate starting $150k in my area vs debt, this should be your determining factor. Not what Uncle Jerry the 55 yr old dentist is making.

 

[free99]

Are you suggesting that becoming a CRNA will cost more financially than dental school's 400k student loan debt? I believe the poster in question was mainly concerned about 400k debt and was looking for a career where he/she wouldn't have to go into such a heavy debt load. Plus when it comes to occupational strain on the body, (general) dentistry isn't far behind nursing. It was never suggested that becoming a CRNA is a walk in the park. Now if you say you will rely on IBR or PSLF programs and become a dentist at any cost, then it's becomes a calculated risk.

I'm saying that the difference in both cost and time commitment between the two is negligible. CRNA probably comes out on top both in terms of avg salary and avg cost. I didn't mention physical strain at all in my post, but dentists have it way worse than nurses, and way way way worse than CRNAs. The only time a CRNA cranes their neck is during a 30 second intubation.

In terms of the loan forgiveness programs, very few dental jobs will qualify for PSLF, as most dentists work in private clinics. With regards to IBR, I think going to dental school expecting to have your student loans hanging around for 25! years and banking on the government to forgive it just shows how broken this system is. Totally reckless IMO.

 

[P7898]

CRNA is good. You need a nursing degree 2-3 years of critical care experience after. Oh yeah make sure you have a 3.8 or above GPA in nursing school. Then apply and cross your fingers. Then it is 3-4 more years of school. They start out around what dentists do but hard to move up in income and you aren't treated like an equal in a hospital setting. Have a family friend who is a CRNA at a major teaching hospital. The grass is not always greener my friend.

 

[wannagiveup]

I'm saying that the difference in both cost and time commitment between the two is negligible. CRNA probably comes out on top both in terms of avg salary and avg cost. I didn't mention physical strain at all in my post, but dentists have it way worse than nurses, and way way way worse than CRNAs. The only time a CRNA cranes their neck is during a 30 second intubation.

In terms of the loan forgiveness programs, very few dental jobs will qualify for PSLF, as most dentists work in private clinics. With regards to IBR, I think going to dental school expecting to have your student loans hanging around for 25! years and banking on the government to forgive it just shows how broken this system is. Totally reckless IMO.

Bolded is the gist of my post.

PS Physcial strain comment was in reference to your "working as an RN, usually in a critical care environment which can be very taxing" comment.
PPS I think you are underestimating the number of public health jobs and government jobs that qualify for PSLF.

 

[free99]

Bolded is the gist of my post.

PS Physcial strain comment was in reference to your "working as an RN, usually in a critical care environment which can be very taxing" comment.
PPS I think you are underestimating the number of public health jobs and government jobs that qualify for PSLF.

Gotcha, by taxing I meant weird hours, low on totem pole, stressful, sometimes hard to get jobs. CRNA and dental are both long expensive roads, no doubt. If I'm putting in 4 years undergrad/2-3 years critical care nursing/3 years CRNA, I'd do MD/DO, which I think gives the most flexibility to choose a specialty that fits your personality/interests once you have some experience. Any of these jobs can set you up for a stable financial future - the reason I'm so hesitant to recommend dentistry at such a high cost is because there's no great practical way to know if you'll like doing it until you're in it, so it's a high risk choice.

 

[ToothJockey]

There is no easy path to money except inheritance and luck.

It's funny, wealthy people always attribute their success to luck. Without fail, it's always "luck". But I'll be honest, I don't think it's just luck, I think it's more about capitalizing on opportunity.

Look at an entrepreneur like Zuckerberg. He could have just taken the safe, regular software engineering route. But instead he decided to use his programming/developing skills to make facebook. Is it luck, or did he create an opportunity for himself and capitalized on it? Luck definitely played a part but it's more about taking the risks.

A dental example. A dentist can take the safe route and be an associate for his entire career. Low risk, low reward. Another dentist can create a startup dental practice. High risk, potentially high reward. Now if this dentist ends up creating a $2 million dollar fluorishing dental practice, was he just more lucky than the associate dentist, or did he just take more risks and capitalize on the opportunity? Sure luck played a part, but attributing this dentists success to luck is disingenious.

 

[frentist]

I interviewed at & got into 5 schools when I applied to DS in 2014 - UCSF, UMich, Buffalo, NYU, and LECOM. When I was going through the application process I was shadowing a GP who was a recent graduate from NYU who begged me not to go to DS if NYU was my only option, and this was 6 years ago. He came from humble beginnings - his dad was a postman - and had no familial help just like me. A few weeks later I started shadowing at another place, where it was the same situation - woman graduated from NYU and in so many words told me don't go to DS if private was your only option. I was lucky to get into a "cheap" school, but had private been my only option I honestly can't say I'd have passed on the opportunity. I'd just invested thousands of dollars into preparing to apply, applying, and interviewing. But being on the back end of it all now, even having gone to a public school, I am now the guy begging you to reconsider if $400k, $500k, $600k is your only option. Many will never get out from under that weight.

There's just too much you don't know as a pre-dent to gamble that much money on the career. This is an incredibly specific job, and if you don't like it and are a half million dollars in debt, you're in a very bad position. Even the dental specialties are all fairly similar in the sense that they're all surgical subspecialties in an outpatient setting. So what other jobs? I think medical school is a far safer option. There is such a variety of ways and settings that you can practice medicine that fit a wider array of personalities. If you aren't interested in med school, I think getting a BS in engineering or CS are both good options that lead to good careers with only a bachelors. If I could do it all over from HS, I'd have gotten into a trade like plumbing or electrical and scrapped college entirely. But that ship has long since sailed, and ill be drilling in a different hole for the next few decades. Don't get me wrong - I feel very lucky to have my path. If pvt DS and pvt peds residency was the alternative ($700k+), I'd be feeling pretty hopeless.

hey can I send you a message?

 

[charlestweed]

i already took 2 gap years and feel like im behind in life. im so stressed and havent slept in days because im not sure what to do.

You are indeed behind. Time does fly fast and you cannot turn back the clock. If you read many of my past posts, you know that I don't like taking gap years and I have always been a strong proponent of hard work and making sacrifices early in life so when you are in your 40s, 50s, you won't need to work hard and worry about paying bills...so you can retire early. The reason you see many 40-50 yo dentists who are financially successful but don't need to work very hard is not because didn't have high debt nor because they were spoiled with good economy but because they had worked hard and made a lot of sacrifices when they were in their 20s and 30s. Coldfront took CE classes and planned to start an office while he was still in dental school.... while many of his dental classmates were having fun. Tanman is working on Saturdays and Sundays and invests his hard earned money with the hope that he can retire early (AMA - Practice startups and early retirement).

And there are plenty of people here, who have the exact opposite opinion as mine.....and that is work-life balance. If you belong to this group of people, then I don't think you should pursue dentistry. Then medicine is not for you either because doctors work a lot harder and have much worse work hours than dentists. I don't think it's a good idea to borrow $100k/year to pursue dentistry, if:
- You don't want to work 5-6 days/week and on Saturdays after graduation.
- You are not willing to live like a poor student (ie moving back to live with your parents, driving the same used car) for another 2-3 years after graduation...and use almost all of your income to cut the student loan debt amount in half in 2-3 years. When you choose the IBR repayment option, you kick the can down the road.....and you should never do that.
- If you choose to marry a spouse, who doesn't have a job.

Just keep in mind that if you plan to switch to another career option like computer science, nursing, or PA etc, it will set you back another year to send in applications + at least 2 more years to complete a degree + additional student loan (may not be as high as loan for dentistry but still a significant amount). You've already lost 2 gap years.

 

[mmc12]

And there are plenty of people here, who have the exact opposite opinion as mine.....and that is work-life balance. If you belong to this group people, then I don't think you should pursue dentistry. Then medicine is not for you either because doctors work a lot harder and have much worse work hours than dentists. I don't think it's a good idea to borrow $100k/year to pursue dentistry, if:
- You don't want to work 5-6 days/week and on Saturdays after graduation.
- You are not willing to live like a poor student (ie moving back to live with your parents, driving the same used car) for another 2-3 years after graduation...and use almost all of your income to cut the student loan debt amount in half in 2-3 years.
- If you choose to marry a spouse, who doesn't have a job.

Just keep in mind that if you plan to switch to another career option like computer science, nursing, or PA etc, it will set you back another year to send in applications + at least 2 more years to compete a degree + additional student loan (may not be as high as loan for dentistry but still a significant amount). You've already lost 2 gap years.

That's strange. I thought one of the reasons why A LOT of people pursue dentistry is the ability to have work-life balance.

 

[GoDental101]

You are indeed behind. Time does fly fast and you cannot turn back the clock. If you read many of my past posts, you know that I don't like taking gap years and I have always been a strong proponent of hard work and making sacrifices early in life so when you are in your 40s, 50s, you won't need to work hard and worry about paying bills...so you can retire early. The reason you see many 40-50 yo dentists who are financially successful but don't need work very hard is not because didn't have high debt nor because they were spoiled with good economy but because they had worked hard and made a lot of sacrifices when they were in their 20s and 30s. Coldfront took CE classes and planned to start an office while he was still in dental school.... while many of his dental classmates were having fun. Tanman is working on Saturdays and Sundays and invest his hard earned money with the hope that he can retire early (AMA - Practice startups and early retirement).

And there are plenty of people here, who have the exact opposite opinion as mine.....and that is work-life balance. If you belong to this group people, then I don't think you should pursue dentistry. Then medicine is not for you either because doctors work a lot harder and have much worse work hours than dentists. I don't think it's a good idea to borrow $100k/year to pursue dentistry, if:
- You don't want to work 5-6 days/week and on Saturdays after graduation.
- You are not willing to live like a poor student (ie moving back to live with your parents, driving the same used car) for another 2-3 years after graduation...and use almost all of your income to cut the student loan debt amount in half in 2-3 years.
- If you choose to marry a spouse, who doesn't have a job.

Just keep in mind that if you plan to switch to another career option like computer science, nursing, or PA etc, it will set you back another year to send in applications + at least 2 more years to compete a degree + additional student loan (may not be as high as loan for dentistry but still a significant amount). You've already lost 2 gap years.

That's strange. I thought one of the reasons why A LOT of people pursue dentistry is the ability to have work-life balance.

He works in California which is a more competitive/demanding market...That may be what you gotta do to make it in California, but the dentists in my neck of the woods work about 4 days a week and probably do better than a dentist in Cali working 5 or 6 days a week. So yes tons of people are in dentistry enjoying a nice work-life balance.

 

[Cold Front]

That's strange. I thought one of the reasons why A LOT of people pursue dentistry is the ability to have work-life balance.

That’s the #1 reason I chose dentistry. #2 reason was the income, which is by default. Plenty of jobs and profession that come with great income, but they lack work/life balance.


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[charlestweed]

That's strange. I thought one of the reasons why A LOT of people pursue dentistry is the ability to have work-life balance.

That might be the reason for some people but not for me. I guess that’s why some dentists were disappointed in choosing this profession. Work-life balance was definitely not the reason why I chose dentistry. I chose dentistry (my first choice was to be a doctor but I didn’t have good enough grade to get into med school) because wanted to make a lot of money and I didn’t mind working hard and working on the weekends. Yes, $$$$ was the #1 reason. The second reason I chose dentistry was the job security….one should have zero problem finding associate job even during the economic recessions. At least in dentistry, if you are willing to work hard, you will make a lot of money. But for other jobs, hard work doesn’t guarantee high income.

 

[charlestweed]

He works in California which is a more competitive/demanding market...That may be what you gotta do to make it in California, but the dentists in my neck of the woods work about 4 days a week and probably do better than a dentist in Cali working 5 or 6 days a week. So yes tons of people are in dentistry enjoying a nice work-life balance.

We do not only face tougher competition. CA’s cost of living is also much higher than the national average. Rent, food, gas prices, home prices and taxes are much higher here in CA.

 

[Cold Front]

Yes, $$$$ was the #1 reason.

You are working “really hard” in the wrong field. If all I focused on was hard work - I would be unhappy. I know we all have different limits and have different cultures. But if I’m not at home by 4p, I would not have a good evening. My work-life balance is 8-3 at work (with 1 hr lunch break), then 4-10p living life. If I really wanted money, I would work 8-6p, 6 days a week, and would double my income. But that would probably take 10 quality yrs from my life, plus higher risk of dying early from conditions related to “hard work”.

So yea, if I really wanted the $$$$, I would have been a stock broker, or work for major financial firm, and stay late in my cubicle in an office building after work every day, and make much more money than dentistry. Yes, those are hard jobs to get, but dental school wasn’t easy either - considering all the BS we had to put up with in school and everything else that leads to a successful life. I would probably be a really mean person if I just used “money” as my moral compass in a profession.


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[cluelessdr]

You are working “really hard” in the wrong field. If all I focused on was hard work - I would be unhappy. I know we all have different limits and have different cultures. But if I’m not at home by 4p, I would not have a good evening. My work-life balance is 8-3 at work (with 1 hr lunch break), then 4-10p living life. If I really wanted money, I would work 8-6p, 6 days a week, and would double my income. But that would probably take 10 quality yrs from my life, plus higher risk of dying early from conditions related to “hard work”.

So yea, if I really wanted the $$$$, I would have been a stock broker, or work for major financial firm, and stay late in my cubicle in an office building after work every day, and make much more money than dentistry. Yes, those are hard jobs to get, but dental school wasn’t easy either - considering all the BS we had to put up with in school and everything else that leads to a successful life. I would probably be a really mean person if I just used “money” as my moral compass in a profession.


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how much debt did you graduate with though?

 

[ToothJockey]

You are working “really hard” in the wrong field. If all I focused on was hard work - I would be unhappy. I know we all have different limits and have different cultures. But if I’m not at home by 4p, I would not have a good evening. My work-life balance is 8-3 at work (with 1 hr lunch break), then 4-10p living life. If I really wanted money, I would work 8-6p, 6 days a week, and would double my income. But that would probably take 10 quality yrs from my life, plus higher risk of dying early from conditions related to “hard work”.

So yea, if I really wanted the $$$$, I would have been a stock broker, or work for major financial firm, and stay late in my cubicle in an office building after work every day, and make much more money than dentistry. Yes, those are hard jobs to get, but dental school wasn’t easy either - considering all the BS we had to put up with in school and everything else that leads to a successful life. I would probably be a really mean person if I just used “money” as my moral compass in a profession.


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In Charles' defense, I think what he really means is work hard in the beginning of your career, so you don't have to grind at the end.
While he works 6 days a week, I recall he only works about 35 hours a week.

I plan on grinding my butt off in the beginning of my career so I can catch up on my investments. Building a solid financial foundation for yourself in your 30's will pay off hugely in your 40s and 50s where the power of compounding interest does it's work. A dollar invested in your 30's is more valuable than a dollar invested in your 40's. I remember reading your posts on your RE investments. You're a pretty good investor and I'm guessing you're really glad that you built a solid investment portfolio early in your career because now you're pretty much financially independent in your 40's.

That's also why if you're coming out of school with 500k+ of loans, it really sets you back big time in your life. You can't invest as much when you're young and that makes a huge difference in the amount of money you will have when you're old.

 

[P7898]

My assessment of what I would do for dentistry in terms of good loan amount/investment:

GP ~as low as you can go - $220k (max; need to work 5 days a week) - I believe if you do a solid AEGD/GPR and expand your skill set and work a bunch then $200k could potentially be attainable. I see it as income to debt ratio needs to be 100% for me at least.

Specialist ~as low as you can go - $320k (max; be like charlestweed and work 5-6 days a week because that interest rate is making that loan bigger during residency)

This is all post interest. All reasonable numbers. Don't go over $300k for dental school and don't go over $400k to become a specialist and I think you will be fine. You have to work hard though to pay that debt off quickly if you are at the top end of the debt in my statement (all from experience practitioners and their current finances and thoughts).

 

[charlestweed]

You are working “really hard” in the wrong field. If all I focused on was hard work - I would be unhappy. I know we all have different limits and have different cultures. But if I’m not at home by 4p, I would not have a good evening. My work-life balance is 8-3 at work (with 1 hr lunch break), then 4-10p living life. If I really wanted money, I would work 8-6p, 6 days a week, and would double my income. But that would probably take 10 quality yrs from my life, plus higher risk of dying early from conditions related to “hard work”.

So yea, if I really wanted the $$$$, I would have been a stock broker, or work for major financial firm, and stay late in my cubicle in an office building after work every day, and make much more money than dentistry. Yes, those are hard jobs to get, but dental school wasn’t easy either - considering all the BS we had to put up with in school and everything else that leads to a successful life. I would probably be a really mean person if I just used “money” as my moral compass in a profession.

Yeah, different people view work-life balance differently. As long as I get paid well, I have zero problem with working past 6pm. Before dental school, I worked 2 P/T jobs to pay for my undergrad education so working late hours and on the weekends wasn’t a big deal to me. I never had the thought that "I go to dental school so I don't need to work on the weekends." If I had such thought, I would be very disappointed. My younger brother is a gastroenterologist. He is working 8-10 hours a day. He has to take calls one entire week per month but he is very happy with his job and his income. He wants all his 3 kids to go to med schools. So it’s up to Cluelesssdr to decide. Neither you nor I know his work ethics or what he wants in life. There are not a lot of jobs out there that allow you make a lot of momey with very little effort.... you are not Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, Sundar Pichai, or Mark Zuckerberg etc.

So yea, if I really wanted the $$$$, I would have been a stock broker, or work for major financial firm, and stay late in my cubicle in an office building after work every day, and make much more money than dentistry. Yes, those are hard jobs to get, but dental school wasn’t easy either - considering all the BS we had to put up with in school and everything else that leads to a successful life. I would probably be a really mean person if I just used “money” as my moral compass in a profession.

I think you would be a very successful stock investor if you chose to do so. I don’t have such talent. I am clueless about stock investments and I am afraid to take risks. Therefore, the safer way for me to make money was going to dental school….I don’t need to have good people and business skills….I don’t need to speak perfect English……just hard work in ortho is good enough to put me in the group of the top 1% income earners in the nation.

 

[cluelessdr]

Yeah, different people view work-life balance differently. As long as I get paid well, I have zero problem with working past 6pm. Before dental school, I worked 2 P/T jobs to pay for my undergrad education so working late hours and on the weekends wasn’t a big deal to me. I never had the thought that "I go to dental school so I don't need to work on the weekends." If I had such thought, I would be very disappointed. My younger brother is a gastroenterologist. He is working 8-10 hours a day. He has to take calls one entire week per month but he is very happy with his job and his income. He wants all his 3 kids to go to med schools. So it’s up to Cluelesssdr to decide. Neither you nor I know his work ethics or what he wants in life. There are not a lot of jobs out there that allow you make a lot of momey with little very effort.... you are not Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, Sundar Pichai, or Mark Zuckerberg etc.

I think you would be a very successful stock investor if you choose to do so. I don’t have such talent. I am clueless about stock investments and I am afraid to take risks. Therefore, the safer way for me to make money is going to dental school….I don’t need to have good people and business skills….I don’t need to speak perfect English……just hard work in ortho is good enough to put me in the group of the top 1% income earners in the nation.

see i agree with everything you said. i am a hard worker, and i know any job i have had i ended up getting a managment position or being at the highest I could be. I am clueless in the stock market too. Med school is not for me, and i want to be my own boss so i dont want to do nursing, pa, or pt. i always wanted to go rural because i grew up rural. i just have no clue what i would do other than dentistry?? so stressed

 

[GoDental101]

see i agree with everything you said. i am a hard worker, and i know any job i have had i ended up getting a managment position or being at the highest I could be. I am clueless in the stock market too. Med school is not for me, and i want to be my own boss so i dont want to do nursing, pa, or pt. i always wanted to go rural because i grew up rural. i just have no clue what i would do other than dentistry?? so stressed

Your overthinking it dude, make a choice and don’t look back

 

[charlestweed]

In Charles' defense, I think what he really means is work hard in the beginning of your career, so you don't have to grind at the end.
While he works 6 days a week, I recall he only works about 35 hours a week.

I plan on grinding my butt off in the beginning of my career so I can catch up on my investments. Building a solid financial foundation for yourself in your 30's will pay off hugely in your 40s and 50s where the power of compounding interest does it's work. A dollar invested in your 30's is more valuable than a dollar invested in your 40's. I remember reading your posts on your RE investments. You're a pretty good investor and I'm guessing you're really glad that you built a solid investment portfolio early in your career because now you're pretty much financially independent in your 40's.

That's also why if you're coming out of school with 500k+ of loans, it really sets you back big time in your life. You can't invest as much when you're young and that makes a huge difference in the amount of money you will have when you're old.

33 hours a week to be exact....and this is still considered a lot by many orthodontists. We, orthodontists, are spoiled. In the ortho world, working on the weekends is a taboo. I actually got criticized by some of my colleagues for taking their patients away by offering weekend office hours.

Tooth Jockey, you summarized my viewpoint perfectly. I have never suggested working like a dog for the next 20-30 years after graduation. If you don't control yourself and keep buying things that you can't afford, then you may have to work like that until you are 65 yo. What's so hard about working 5-6 days a week when you are only 26 yo (the year you graduate from D-school if you don't take any gap years)? At that age, you don't have any medical problem that prevents you from working long hours. I know, I know....some people here will say that at 26, I should be traveling and have fun because when I get older, my aging body will not allow to enjoy these. Well, that's the decision you have to make: have fun now and worry about the future retirement later VERSUS work hard now and enjoy life when you are in your 40, 50s. It's hard to have both: enjoy early and want to retire early...not with dentistry, not with medicine, not with computer science major etc.

Coming out with $500k debt definitely sets you back big time. I don't deny this fact. The same thing is true about practicing in oversaturated market (like in CA). Hard work is the only way to overcome all these setbacks. If you discipline yourself and do everything right, by the age of 30, half of your student loan should be paid off with your dental income and you should have more breathing room to start investing. You only need to put down 20% to buy a house and let your tenant pay the mortgage and property tax for you. By the time you retire, 30 years later, you'll have 100% ownership of that investment house.....you can do whatever you want with it....sell it, give it to your kid, or continue to let it serve as a passive retirement income.

 

[Cold Front]

33 hours a week to be exact....and this is still considered a lot by many orthodontists. We, orthodontists, are spoiled. In the ortho world, working on the weekends is a taboo. I actually got criticized by some of my colleagues for taking their patients away by offering weekend office hours.

I work <30 hours as a general dentist. A lot of hustling and stress to get there. Nothing is written in stone that only specialists and some general dentists work close to part-time hours. You play hard early and enjoy life later, or vice versa. Most dentists don’t work all their life under the same schedule.

It took me 10 yrs of setting the foundation of the schedule and life I have now. I consider myself lucky, and even if I had the a chance to do it again, I don’t think the same opportunities would be there. Everything is timing + preparation + luck. You can only control the first 2, the 3rd can only be realized after the fact.


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[charlestweed]

... You play hard early and enjoy life later, or vice versa.....

I completely agree with this statement. You see, I don't disagree with you on everything that you've said.

It took me 10 yrs of setting the foundation of the schedule and life I have now. I consider myself lucky, and even if I had the a chance to do it again, I don’t think the same opportunities would be there. Everything is timing + preparation + luck. You can only control the first 2, the 3rd can only be realized after the fact.

10 years of hard work.....and it wasn't too bad, was it? You would not achieve the same level of success, if you were a today new grad (with much higher debt and zero luck) but I am pretty sure you would still do very well (easily belong to the group of the top 20% income earners in the country, would you agree with me?) because you are a hard working person. I think 10 years of hard work in dentistry can get a person very far if he/she can discipline him/herself (ie continue to live like a poor student or like a medical/dental resident for 2-3 years, don't buy things he/she can't afford, use the debt snowball method to cut the student loan in half in 2-3 years etc). 10 years later, he/she will only be 36-37 years old.....still very young to enjoy life for the next 30+ years of his/her life.

 

[gryffindor]

This is hilarious. My brother barely graduated high school and slid in and graduated from a respectable CS program. He worked for a while at a "stodgy" SV company that was constantly losing young, American-educated employees like him to Facebook, Apple, etc. They gave him crazy perks to stay and bring the average age of their employees down. He eventually left because he didn't like being an employee despite the paycheck so the only other option in that case is the same as dentistry - go out and do your own thing. Or else any of these jobs are just a rat race on someone else's terms.

I think this is a decent field if your loans are under control. And always save for a rainy day. As this current fiasco shows us, even our jobs are not immune to unemployment. I would have never imagined a day where I couldn't practice at all. I always thought even if I couldn't do braces for some reason, I could still pull teeth somewhere and someone would pay me for my DDS license. No so anymore.

 

[Cold Front]

I completely agree with this statement. You see, I don't disagree with you on everything that you've said.

Well, that’s the circle of life. We ran out of topics to disagree on. lol


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