Any dentists out there struggling with loans?

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I wonder when this dental school student debt bubble will burst? It needs to happen, there needs to be a reckoning.

Income-driven repayment plans have propped up professional school tuitions. I think we're going to see major changes in education after this work from home/go to school at home experiment we're in right now is over, but the naivete of pre-med/pre-dental students is a powerful force - o_O. I've been browsing the pre-dental forums lately and there's no mention about deferring acceptance or re-thinking this profession due to COVID-19 which absolutely blows me away.

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My loans after dental school were $430k. However, with IDR payments the unpaid interest is capitalized and increases the loan balance. That is how I have nearly $600k in debt. Students in dental school today with a $600k price tag will see a significantly higher balance upon graduation as some of the loans accumulate interest during dental school. Then if they are doing IDR payments, they will hit $1 mil in no time.
To anybody considering dental school simply for the financial benefits....learn to code.

The unpaid interest is only capitalized under certain circumstances - one of which is graduation. However, you should not be experiencing capitalization regularly, if you are, you need to figure out why that's happening to you.
 
The unpaid interest is only capitalized under certain circumstances - one of which is graduation. However, you should not be experiencing capitalization regularly, if you are, you need to figure out why that's happening to you.
Grad plus loans accumulate interest during dental school and are capitalized annually.After 6 months out from graduation, when interest accrues, the unpaid interest is capitalized annually. This is for the IDR,IBR, REPAYE

I should clarify that I have been out of school 5+ years.
 
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Why are soo many people on this thread in $600k? Did you guys know what you were getting yourselves into? Not trying to bash anyone just wanted to hear your thoughts process.

Most students who attended many of the private schools like those in AZ, PA, MA, CA, FL, UT, etc will find themselves in 600k of debt a few years after they graduate due to cost of tuition + unsub interest accumulation + capitalization at graduation + increased interest accumulation from capitalization + several years of negative amortization after graduation as they build up speed and increase their earned income.

It used to just be specialists who would find themselves in this type of debt (particularly ortho), but it's not surprising anymore to see GP's approaching 600k in 2020. It's pretty sad. Their thought process is that they don't do the math when they apply or they get caught up in this "destined to be a dentist" garbage as if they can't find satisfaction in another line of work. They also get poor advice from older dentists or other pre-health advisors.
 
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Grad plus loans accumulate interest during dental school and are capitalized annually.After 6 months out from graduation, when interest accrues, the unpaid interest is capitalized annually. This is for the IDR,IBR, REPAYE

I should clarify that I have been out of school 5+ years.

Outstanding interest is not capitalized annually on Grad Plus loans. Annual capitalization would only occur if you're in Income Contingent Repayment (ICR), but that program is obsolete. If you're in IBR/PAYE/REPAYE/New IBR, as long as you recertify your income each year, the outstanding interest should not be capitalized on any of your direct loans, including the grad plus loans. Federal student loans under IBR/PAYE/REPAYE accrue simple interest as long as you follow the rules - this is one of their major advantages.
 
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Their thought process is that they don't do the math when they apply or they get caught up in this "destined to be a dentist" garbage as if they can't find satisfaction in another line of work.
It also doesn't help that we're giving essentially children 600k in student loans, no questions asked, when many of them haven't so much as held a full time job or paid taxes. This system is completely immoral. Hopefully the higher education bubble bursts sooner rather than later.
 
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It also doesn't help that we're giving essentially children 600k in student loans, no questions asked, when many of them haven't so much as held a full time job or paid taxes. This system is completely immoral. Hopefully the higher education bubble bursts sooner rather than later.

Absolutely. It's a joke that students and families have access to an almost unlimited unsecured line of credit regardless of their creditworthiness or ability to secure the loan with any collateral. Then, if things go terribly awry in someone's life, the borrower cannot even get rid of the loans during bankruptcy. Many people argue that these programs benefit those of lower socioeconomic status but I think these loans are predatory and create a debt prison for those without financial support as they'll spend 20 to 25 years paying an extra 10% tax on their income and then they get hit with an earned income tax on the forgiven balance. This cripples family finances for many borrowers.
 
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Mike Meru’s story will become increasingly more common, I’m afraid.

Big Hoss
 
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Outstanding interest is not capitalized annually on Grad Plus loans. Annual capitalization would only occur if you're in Income Contingent Repayment (ICR), but that program is obsolete. If you're in IBR/PAYE/REPAYE/New IBR, as long as you recertify your income each year, the outstanding interest should not be capitalized on any of your direct loans, including the grad plus loans. Federal student loans under IBR/PAYE/REPAYE accrue simple interest as long as you follow the rules - this is one of their major advantages.
Thank you for the clarification. I believe my interest was capitalized when I consolidated my loans.
 
It also doesn't help that we're giving essentially children 600k in student loans, no questions asked, when many of them haven't so much as held a full time job or paid taxes. This system is completely immoral. Hopefully the higher education bubble bursts sooner rather than later.

I’m watching what happens to all the coronavirus related “6 months deferrals” for the existing “federal student loans” this October. Unemployment next month will reach 30-40 million Americans, a big majority of that number have student loans - and could remain unemployed by October, and majority will likely default on their student loans. Not to mention the tens of thousands who will graduate this spring, who will enter a “job freeze” market and will also exhaust their 6 months grace period by October. The chicken will finally come to roost on the national student loans crisis.


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I've been browsing the pre-dental forums lately and there's no mention about deferring acceptance or re-thinking this profession due to COVID-19 which absolutely blows me away.

Really curious about your thoughts on this. In your opinion why should people rethink dentistry because of COVID-19? I get that practically all dentists are out of work right now, but what reasons besides this are you thinking of?
 
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Really curious about your thoughts on this. In your opinion why should people rethink dentistry because of COVID-19? I get that practically all dentists are out of work right now, but what reasons besides this are you thinking of?

I am a general dentist, and I really (emphasize really) hope I am wrong about this, but here it goes...

I think our workflow is going to permanently change due to new infection control requirements that would prohibit dentists from seeing multiple patients at the same time if aerosol generating procedures are being completed during the appointment. Like almost every general dentist I know, I work out of multiple rooms and see multiple patients at the same time. If donning and doffing PPE as they like to call it is going to prohibit us from practicing this way, my daily production will probably be cut in half...it may be cut by more, and it will absolutely be cut by more than 50% if you include hygiene production because we’ll lose out on the exams that day.

Maybe, some of the production will be made up for it by working more hours or additional days, but labor laws make that challenging without adding more staff and that might just increase your overhead as a percentage of collections to a point where it’s not worth the extra work...I don’t know, but I can say I am very concerned, and if I was an applicant this cycle, I would wait 12 months and see what happens before moving forward.

Beyond this will be a bit of a rant...

There are many things that may be required that are not currently in place in most offices - like closed/sealed operatories, additional PPE requirements, modifications to HVAC etc. Hopefully we are not told we need negative pressure ops but PA (for whatever reason) originally required that when they rolled out their guidelines for ER treatment last month...they eventually rolled it back but that might be a sign of things to come. AAE also posted their guidelines for treating patients suspected to have COVID that included negative pressure environments too. I do not think negative pressure operatories are going to become a standard requirement, but when you think about practice ownership, any time we get more regulations our costs go up, and they just keep going up. Our overheads are already much higher as a percentage of our production than previous generations of dentists, and insurance shows no signs of increasing reimbursement (in fact, it’s going down). Delta CA recently announced they were decreasing their reimbursement to specialists by 20% in California. These cuts were supposed to go into effect on July 1 2020 if I remember correctly. Since COVID, Delta of CA has graciously decided to delay the cuts until Jan. 1st 2021....They’re not going to magically increase reimbursement for dentists. There are strong deflationary forces in our profession and we’ve lost control of our own fees. As we dig into this recession (it may be a depression) we’re probably going to see more cuts to reimbursement rates from multiple carriers, and our newly unemployed or underemployed patients are going to rely on the discount to get the work done.

Dental care is purchased with discretionary income, and you can see right now how many Americans live month-to-month. More than 30 percent of people didn’t have the money to pay April’s rent, finding an extra grand to buy a crown is going to be a difficult sell.

Without an increase in fees, we’re basically holding our breath hoping the ADA can actually lobby for a separate billable procedure for infection control that at least covers the cost of the equipment and the lost provider time used to put it on and take it off between patients. But it won’t be enough to make up for the lost production of working out of 2 or 3 columns.

Important for students to note - this would be anyone graduating in the next 1-4 years, maybe even 5 years...every associate dentist I know has either been furloughed or fired. The job market after this event is going to be terrible for dentists over the next 12-24 months, and some dentists who are current owners will go under.

Running through an example of why some will be forced to close - one of my previous coworkers (he was 70 years old at the time) was a dentist in Virginia. The town’s economy he practice in was built around coal mining...coal mining fell out of favor, town went bust and practice dried up. He sold the practice for nothing...it was basically worthless. He moved to CA and became an associate dentist never looking back. 2020 - substitute coal mining for tourism/conferences both domestic and international. Many getaway towns or travel heavy cities (like Orlando) are going to be absolutely crushed and those dentists will close and move to urban centers where there’s opportunity...some people will say go rural - when you get burned this badly by relying on a town with a heavy reliance on 1 industry or 1 employer, those I’ve met who have experience this have advised me they’ll never repeat that mistake because the trauma from losing everything is too significant so they practice in areas with a more diversified economy despite the increase in competition.

It is already difficult to find a good job as an associate, and it’s even more difficult to find a good job as an inexperienced associate. When I’m looking at this situation, I am guessing we will see both a decrease in the number of jobs available and we are going to see an increase in the number of experienced dentists looking for associateships for at least a few years. For those that want to own soon, we’ll have to see how banks will evaluate financing dentists in the near term (long term, it will be fine, but over the next 1-3 years we may see banks less eager to lend to young dentists without significant cash savings). So with that, I’m guessing these young grads in the next few years are going to have a very, very difficult time...
 
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I’m watching what happens to all the coronavirus related “6 months deferrals” for the existing “federal student loans” this October. Unemployment next month will reach 30-40 million Americans, a big majority of that number have student loans - and could remain unemployed by October, and majority will likely default on their student loans. Not to mention the tens of thousands who will graduate this spring, who will enter a “job freeze” market and will also exhaust their 6 months grace period by October. The chicken will finally come to roost on the national student loans crisis.


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I think we’ll see the 0% and administrative forbearance extended through the end of 2020. This will be announced by the President closer to the election to help secure some votes IMO.

A massive percentage of the class of 2018, 2019, and 2020 are either going to default if they refinance or don’t know what they’re doing with IDR, or we’ll just see negative amortization all over the place with low payments calculated under IDR that don’t cover the interest.

If there’s ever a time that student loans actually get forgiveness in mass...it’s probably going to be bundled into one of the stimulus packages related to COVID....
 
It also doesn't help that we're giving essentially children 600k in student loans, no questions asked, when many of them haven't so much as held a full time job or paid taxes. This system is completely immoral. Hopefully the higher education bubble bursts sooner rather than later.


Absolutely. It's a joke that students and families have access to an almost unlimited unsecured line of credit regardless of their creditworthiness or ability to secure the loan with any collateral. Then, if things go terribly awry in someone's life, the borrower cannot even get rid of the loans during bankruptcy. Many people argue that these programs benefit those of lower socioeconomic status but I think these loans are predatory and create a debt prison for those without financial support as they'll spend 20 to 25 years paying an extra 10% tax on their income and then they get hit with an earned income tax on the forgiven balance. This cripples family finances for many borrowers.

IF we were to require the schools to co-sign some portion of these loans not only would the this loans to children foolishness end but the sky rocketing tuition costs would come under control.
 
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I can't disagree with all the negative posts re: the dental industry. I'm also not making light of this change on how dentistry infection protocols will change going forward with the associated costs/lost production, etc. etc.. I also agree that it will be difficult for those new dentists graduating now. I also predict lowered salaries for those of us working at DSOs and private offices.

But ..... recessions have come and gone. A bull market has always followed the bears. There will always be a need for dental services.

Regarding additional infection control protocols. When I went to DS .... we did not wear GLOVES. Ortho pliars and instruments were cold sterilized. There was no concern for bugs in the water lines. There were no back flow preventers in the offices. There were NO hippaa requirements. Then the Aids epidemic arrived. Remember LA Laker Magic Johnson? Everything changed after that. Again .... in the late 80's .... gloves were not routinely used. Now ... you had to buy gloves and additional infection protocols. Look at operatories today compared to back in the late 80's. EVERYTHING is covered with throwaway disposables. Pretty sure all that additional infection protocols cost money back then. Ortho offices had to BUY dry heat or autoclave sterilizers which cost additional money. What about the need for sterilizer spore testing. More $. Water line testing. In the old days .... we never tested our water lines. Backflow preventers. This adds additional cost to a build out or to retrofit a dental office. The preventers (in some cities) required annual testing with all the associated fees. Hippa: Think about all the money spent in software and hardware to comply with hippaa. Credit card machines needing update to protect personal info.

See my point? This isn't new. Dental offices will adapt as they have in the past. The curve is flattening. Vaccines will be developed. Life will go on at least until the next disaster arrives.
 
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I can't disagree with all the negative posts re: the dental industry. I'm also not making light of this change on how dentistry infection protocols will change going forward with the associated costs/lost production, etc. etc.. I also agree that it will be difficult for those new dentists graduating now. I also predict lowered salaries for those of us working at DSOs and private offices.

But ..... recessions have come and gone. A bull market has always followed the bears. There will always be a need for dental services.

Regarding additional infection control protocols. When I went to DS .... we did not wear GLOVES. Ortho pliars and instruments were cold sterilized. There was no concern for bugs in the water lines. There were no back flow preventers in the offices. There were NO hippaa requirements. Then the Aids epidemic arrived. Remember LA Laker Magic Johnson? Everything changed after that. Again .... in the late 80's .... gloves were not routinely used. Now ... you had to buy gloves and additional infection protocols. Look at operatories today compared to back in the late 80's. EVERYTHING is covered with throwaway disposables. Pretty sure all that additional infection protocols cost money back then. Ortho offices had to BUY dry heat or autoclave sterilizers which cost additional money. What about the need for sterilizer spore testing. More $. Water line testing. In the old days .... we never tested our water lines. Backflow preventers. This adds additional cost to a build out or to retrofit a dental office. The preventers (in some cities) required annual testing with all the associated fees. Hippa: Think about all the money spent in software and hardware to comply with hippaa. Credit card machines needing update to protect personal info.

See my point? This isn't new. Dental offices will adapt as they have in the past. The curve is flattening. Vaccines will be developed. Life will go on at least until the next disaster arrives.


I can't disagree with all the negative posts re: the dental industry. I'm also not making light of this change on how dentistry infection protocols will change going forward with the associated costs/lost production, etc. etc.. I also agree that it will be difficult for those new dentists graduating now. I also predict lowered salaries for those of us working at DSOs and private offices.

But ..... recessions have come and gone. A bull market has always followed the bears. There will always be a need for dental services.

Regarding additional infection control protocols. When I went to DS .... we did not wear GLOVES. Ortho pliars and instruments were cold sterilized. There was no concern for bugs in the water lines. There were no back flow preventers in the offices. There were NO hippaa requirements. Then the Aids epidemic arrived. Remember LA Laker Magic Johnson? Everything changed after that. Again .... in the late 80's .... gloves were not routinely used. Now ... you had to buy gloves and additional infection protocols. Look at operatories today compared to back in the late 80's. EVERYTHING is covered with throwaway disposables. Pretty sure all that additional infection protocols cost money back then. Ortho offices had to BUY dry heat or autoclave sterilizers which cost additional money. What about the need for sterilizer spore testing. More $. Water line testing. In the old days .... we never tested our water lines. Backflow preventers. This adds additional cost to a build out or to retrofit a dental office. The preventers (in some cities) required annual testing with all the associated fees. Hippa: Think about all the money spent in software and hardware to comply with hippaa. Credit card machines needing update to protect personal info.

See my point? This isn't new. Dental offices will adapt as they have in the past. The curve is flattening. Vaccines will be developed. Life will go on at least until the next disaster arrives.

I really want to agree with you however, those who are trying to get into d-schools now they have a new perspective to weight in whether dentistry is really the way to go. To be honest, if I had a crystal ball that allowed me to see the future, dentistry would not be the calling.
 
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The curve is flattening. Vaccines will be developed. Life will go on at least until the next disaster arrives.
Yes, all those things will happen, but at much slower rate and with a much bigger impact on the economy. Yes, the curve is flattening, but at the summit, with still a high number of hospitalization cases and no dramatic drop of the curve expected in the coming weeks/months.

The president and his medical team said last month “the total virus related deaths in the US will be 200-250,000”. They updated and adjusted that figure down to “60,000” couple of weeks ago. Today, we have about 40,000 dead, and that number is on track to pass 60,000 next weekend. So whatever models the administration is using is way off - and we could be far from normalcy, maybe until the end of the year now. This is a marathon, not a sprint recovery.


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I really want to agree with you however, those who are trying to get into d-schools now they have a new perspective to weight in whether dentistry is really the way to go. To be honest, if I had a crystal ball that allowed me to see the future, dentistry would not be the calling.
Out of curiousity ... then what would be your calling? The grass is always greener seems appropiate on the surface, but further research reveals that every occupation has it's unique pros and cons. Yes. Dentistry is not what it used to be. I whole heartedly agree. I've made it clear with my other anecdotal, non fact based posts lol ..... that dentistry has turned into a commodity business.

Medicine? You go to the hospital for a procedure. Does anyone ask to see the Dr's credentials? Their experience? Where they went to school? Etc. etc. "Most" patients only ask one thing. Is this Dr. in network with my insurance? Medicine is insurance controlled.

Coding? Awesome. :thumbdown: I can't wait to sit in a chair, staring into a monitor all day while pounding Red Bull or Rockstar energy drinks.

Engineering? My nephew is a civil engineer for the state. He doesn't make great money and is always complaining about it.

Nothing is easy.
 
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Why are soo many people on this thread in $600k? Did you guys know what you were getting yourselves into? Not trying to bash anyone just wanted to hear your thoughts process.
When kids finish HS, many of them want to go colleges as far away from their parents as possible because they are getting tired of being told what to do at home. They want freedom. They want to learn to become more mature and independent. Smart kids usually want prestigious colleges because many of their smart HS friends also go to these colleges….peer pressure. They don’t care about cost and student loans because they have never worked and faced the challenge of paying bills before. I have met many of these kids….being an orthodontist, I’ve seen a lot of kids. Their parents want them to go to colleges closer to home but they didn’t listen. I too have advised them to listen to their parents and told them about my painful experience of paying back my student loans but they didn’t listen to me either. As the result, many of them ended up owing $150-200k for their BS degrees. Many of them couldn’t find jobs after college and went on to do more study for MS degrees….more student loan :eek:. It would have been zero debt if they listened and stayed home with their parents.....free rent, free food.

My nephew did OK in HS. He got accepted to a Cal State university (a step below the UC schools in CA). His mom, who didn’t know anything about colleges, asked my wife for advice. My wife told him to save $$$ by going a community college. He got straight As at the community college and after 2 years, he transferred to a university near his house. He will attend dental school this coming fall. He doesn’t lose any year (4 years in undergrad) and his undergrad debt = $0.
 
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I can't disagree with all the negative posts re: the dental industry. I'm also not making light of this change on how dentistry infection protocols will change going forward with the associated costs/lost production, etc. etc.. I also agree that it will be difficult for those new dentists graduating now. I also predict lowered salaries for those of us working at DSOs and private offices.

But ..... recessions have come and gone. A bull market has always followed the bears. There will always be a need for dental services.

Regarding additional infection control protocols. When I went to DS .... we did not wear GLOVES. Ortho pliars and instruments were cold sterilized. There was no concern for bugs in the water lines. There were no back flow preventers in the offices. There were NO hippaa requirements. Then the Aids epidemic arrived. Remember LA Laker Magic Johnson? Everything changed after that. Again .... in the late 80's .... gloves were not routinely used. Now ... you had to buy gloves and additional infection protocols. Look at operatories today compared to back in the late 80's. EVERYTHING is covered with throwaway disposables. Pretty sure all that additional infection protocols cost money back then. Ortho offices had to BUY dry heat or autoclave sterilizers which cost additional money. What about the need for sterilizer spore testing. More $. Water line testing. In the old days .... we never tested our water lines. Backflow preventers. This adds additional cost to a build out or to retrofit a dental office. The preventers (in some cities) required annual testing with all the associated fees. Hippa: Think about all the money spent in software and hardware to comply with hippaa. Credit card machines needing update to protect personal info.

See my point? This isn't new. Dental offices will adapt as they have in the past. The curve is flattening. Vaccines will be developed. Life will go on at least until the next disaster arrives.
Yes. This Covid pandemic will eventually go away and things will be back to normal. This might be worse than the past recessions and the road to recovery might be longer but America will survive this one as well. America will remain the world’s super power. The whole world depends on our country’s economy. America is the land of opportunities. American dentists will always do better than dentists in other countries.
 
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Being bored at home, I’ve been switching back and forth between the 2 news networks and these are what I have heard all day:

Fox News: optimism, reopening the country, remain calm, take proper precautions, and we will get through this.

CNN: we are doomed, there is no hope, the sky is falling, panic, chaos, and the president is crazy etc.
 
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Being bored at home, I’ve been switching back and forth between the 2 news networks and these are what I have heard all day:

Fox News: optimism, reopening the country, remain calm, take proper precautions, and we will get through this.

CNN: we are doomed, there is no hope, the sky is falling, panic, chaos, and the president is crazy etc.

That is so funny. I've been doing the same thing. Great entertainment value on both networks.
 
Being bored at home, I’ve been switching back and forth between the 2 news networks and these are what I have heard all day:

Fox News: optimism, reopening the country, remain calm, take proper precautions, and we will get through this.

CNN: we are doomed, there is no hope, the sky is falling, panic, chaos, and the president is crazy etc.

Sounds about right lol. I just laughed soo hard right now. What is new haha
 
Being bored at home, I’ve been switching back and forth between the 2 news networks and these are what I have heard all day:

Fox News: optimism, reopening the country, remain calm, take proper precautions, and we will get through this.

CNN: we are doomed, there is no hope, the sky is falling, panic, chaos, and the president is crazy etc.

Oh Charles!!!!
That was the best laugh I have had today.
It's funny because it is SO true!
 
Yes. This Covid pandemic will eventually go away and things will be back to normal. This might be worse than the past recessions and the road to recovery might be longer but America will survive this one as well. America will remain the world’s super power. The whole world depends on our country’s economy. America is the land of opportunities. American dentists will always do better than dentists in other countries.
Lol what other country has dentists 600k deep in debt.
 
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Yes. This Covid pandemic will eventually go away and things will be back to normal. This might be worse than the past recessions and the road to recovery might be longer but America will survive this one as well. America will remain the world’s super power. The whole world depends on our country’s economy. America is the land of opportunities. American dentists will always do better than dentists in other countries.

Yes, America is going to be ok. But if one thing that will come out of this crisis, the pandemic is hurting America’s poor and minority far worse than their upper class and ultra rich. There are far less resources and attention in the poor communities to protect them.

So... whenever I hear “America is the greatest country in the world”, that only depends on which side of America you live in or see. Many countries fair better in other measures, and particularly did far better in the battle against covid-19, which helped them save far more lives for “all” their citizens than America did.

[youtube]


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Yes, America is going to be ok. But if one thing that will come out of this crisis, the pandemic is hurting America’s poor and minority far worse than their upper class and ultra rich. There are far less resources and attention in the poor communities to protect them.

So... whenever I hear “America is the greatest country in the world”, that only depends on which side of America you live in or see. Many countries fair better in other measures, and particularly did far better in the battle against covid-19, which helped them save far more lives for “all” their citizens than America did.

[youtube]


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Average income on the island is $2.5 million...wow. Dentists are going to have to up their game. The $150K average salary isn't enough to get on that island and get tested.
 
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Lol what other country has dentists 600k deep in debt.
American dentists with $600k debt are still in much better financial shape than debt-free dentists in other countries. Dentists in other countries don't have good paying jobs and if they have their own practices, they don't have a lot of patients. American people are very vain and they are willing to pay dentists a lot of money to get beautiful smiles. That's why many foreign dentists come to America, pay big $$$ to get education at dental schools that accept foreign trained dentists, and hope that they can stay and work in America after graduation.
 
Average income on the island is $2.5 million...wow. Dentists are going to have to up their game. The $150K average salary isn't enough to get on that island and get tested.

Ha! I know a lot of dentists who are (quietly) on unemployment benefits now and deferred their loans (mortgage, student loans, etc). They are currently going through their savings, and could be out on the street if this pandemic persists through late summer/early fall.

20200401_HPI%20Covid_Feature%20Image_400.jpg


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Yes, America is going to be ok. But if one thing that will come out of this crisis, the pandemic is hurting America’s poor and minority far worse than their upper class and ultra rich. There are far less resources and attention in the poor communities to protect them.

So... whenever I hear “America is the greatest country in the world”, that only depends on which side of America you live in or see. Many countries fair better in other measures, and particularly did far better in the battle against covid-19, which helped them save far more lives for “all” their citizens than America did.

[youtube]


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You can go live in other countries that you think are better than America. I live and will die here in this greatest country in the world. You are right; it sucks being poor. I work hard (4yrs undergrad, 4 years DDS, 2 yrs ortho, working for both corp offices and at my own offices) because I don't want to be poor. To get to live in this expensive island, I am pretty sure those rich folks have worked very hard and made a lot of sacrifices. Nobody can help you. If you rely on others for help, you will be disappointed. You have to take care of yourself and your family.

If I've ever contracted the virus and needed treatment, I'd rather get tx here in America than getting the tx in countries like Italy, England, France, Spain, China, Vietnam etc.
 
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You can go live in other countries that you think are better than America. I live and will die here in this greatest country in the world. You are right; it sucks being poor.

Ok, Charles. I lived in 4 continents in the world and I have been a patient or visited a loved one (in one form or the other) at a hospital in England, Germany, Dubai, Egypt, Kenya and Australia. I have many siblings and relatives who work in US hospitals and healthcare system (including myself as a dentist), and I know first hand - the difference between US healthcare system and the rest of the world (all BS aside).

We can agree to disagree, but American doctors on average are by far “most competent doctors” on the planet. However, from a patient perspective - the access to these “Great American Doctors!” becomes a limited and in many cases restricted to all Americans. The majority of minority Doctors who practice in America (like you and I) accept Medicaid and treat the poor, but the majority of non-minority doctors do not participate or refuse to treat Medicaid and Medicare population based on their insurances. Hence, why medicaid has a bad stigma and is very unpopular for American Doctors and Healthcare System. Medicaid is essentially synonymous with being poor and is frowned upon - something that doesn’t happen in any other nation.

These are just facts and public information. We as a “country” suck at helping our minority, poor and old demographics, but do a great job in helping our wealthy and corporate backed private insurance patients.

I will say it again... American Healthcare is The Worst in The Developed World. Not because of the providers, technology and facilities, but the “system” itself is widely known to have failed in providing access to all “Americans”. If you really stand up for this country to be great, then you must speak from the position of all your fellow “Americans” - where many who would have had better lives in another country for services that are not available or have access to in “America”.

I’m not going to get into the other disparities in this country, I don’t want to offend your utopia version of America.


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You can go live in other countries that you think are better than America. I live and will die here in this greatest country in the world. You are right; it sucks being poor. I work hard (4yrs undergrad, 4 years DDS, 2 yrs ortho, working for both corp offices and at my own offices) because I don't want to be poor. To get to live in this expensive island, I am pretty sure those rich folks have worked very hard and made a lot of sacrifices. Nobody can help you. If you rely on others for help, you will be disappointed. You have take care of yourself and your family.

If I've ever contracted the virus and needed treatment, I'd rather get tx here in America than getting the tx in countries like Italy, England, France, Spain, China, Vietnam etc.

This is akin to some religious mantra. To ignore real issues in our country serves no one any good.
 
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We can agree to disagree, but American doctors on average are by far “most competent doctors” on the planet. However, from a patient perspective - the access to these “Great American Doctors!” becomes a limited and in many cases restricted to all Americans. The majority of minority Doctors who practice in America (like you and I) accept Medicaid and treat the poor, but the majority of non-minority doctors do not participate or refuse to treat Medicaid and Medicare population based on their insurances. Hence, why medicaid has a bad stigma and is very unpopular for American Doctors and Healthcare System. Medicaid is essentially synonymous with being poor and is frowned upon - something that doesn’t happen in any other nation.
It’s true that not a lot private dental practices accept medicaid but there are plenty of dental corp offices that welcome medicaid patients with open arms. And these dental corp offices are everywhere in the country. There are also county hospitals that offer free dental extractions for patients who don’t have insurances and medicaid. According to my brother in law, who is a MD internist, medicaid patients get a lot more treatments for “free” than patients who have insurances. About 7 years ago, I visited the ER for a chest pain (fortunately, it was just a stress-related acid reflux) and I got a bill for $3800 for less than 5 hour stay at a hospital….and I had blue shield PPO plan, which I paid $1200/month. It would have been free if I had medicaid.

These are just facts and public information. We as a “country” suck at helping our minority, poor and old demographics, but do a great job in helping our wealthy and corporate backed private insurance patients.
To me, not denying the minority and the poor the opportunities to become successful should be more than enough to make a country a great one. I am Asian and I had equal access to the American education system as the rich White kids. I still had a green card when I was in HS and in college. I didn’t take an oath to become an American citizen until my 3rd year in college. We had an African American president. And we currently have supreme court justices who are African American and Puerto Rican American.
 
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I heard that dentists in Singapore make similar amount to US dentists. Singapore is also considered one of the richest countries in the world with some of the highest quality of life.
 
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I heard that dentists in Singapore make similar amount to US dentists. Singapore is also considered one of the richest countries in the world with some of the highest quality of life.
We don’t have to look far - Canadian dentists don’t have the absurd level of debt
 
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I heard that dentists in Singapore make similar amount to US dentists. Singapore is also considered one of the richest countries in the world with some of the highest quality of life.
They make about $100K give or take, not quite there yet!
 
Not bad. And much less debt too. I know many general dentists in the USA making only 80-90K full time.
seriously?! Probably in the highly competitive areas or if they are foreign grad?!
 
It's true that Canadian dentists have less student loans but they have to pay slightly higher income and sale taxes. I also heard that it's extremely hard to get into Canadian dental schools. That's why many Canadians have to apply to expensive private dental schools in the US. I also know several Canadian dentists who came to the US for post grad residency trainings.....and a few of them stayed and worked in the US after their trainings. The weather in Canada is too damn cold. I'd much rather live in the US.....lower taxes, better weather, better investment opportunities etc.
 
Ask some associates in highly competitive markets (SF, LA, NYC). You would be surprised.
[/QUOT


$500k in debt with Cali school and working in cali for $90K...... where was the education lost???
 
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Ask some associates in highly competitive markets (SF, LA, NYC). You would be surprised.
Plenty of associateships in NYC pay a daily minimum of $500-$550 (pre-COVID rate of course). If you work 5 days a week at those rates I don’t see how you would make less than $100k a year.
 
Charles Tweed loves America so much he makes Big Hoss question his patriotism LOL
 
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So with a new week ahead:

1. The confirmed COVID-19 cases will pass 800,000 in the US, deaths will pass 50,000 - meaning 6-7% of confirmed cases die from infection (much higher than the projected 1-2% many models predicted). These are horrible numbers, but that won’t stop some governors from re-opening their states in little over a week from now.

2. Unemployment claims numbers will be close to 30 million over the last 4 weeks. Some states declared they will be out of funds to pay unemployment benefits as early as May/June.

3. The PPE shortage will continue increase as some non-medical businesses start to order them as their employees go back to work on May 1. Creating even more backlog on medical and dental services/offices PPE orders. Specially on the N95 masks, which will not be widely available for the coming months.

4. We could see more protests on state capitols - as Trump rallies more angry people on twitter, to pressure their governors to open their states. Possible early signs of unrest in some parts of the country, as people slowly start to get desperate.

5. Congress will rush to pass more payroll stimulus for small businesses, but again will not be enough and will be depleted within days, as banks will focus on helping the businesses that need large transactions, leaving very small businesses little to borrow - and the final nail in the coffin for them to close for good.

Let’s hope I’m wrong, but this is the direction the country and our economy is heading in the short term.


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So with a new week ahead:

1. The confirmed COVID-19 cases will pass 800,000 in the US, deaths will pass 50,000 - meaning 6-7% of confirmed cases die from infection (much higher than the projected 1-2% many models predicted). These are horrible numbers, but that won’t stop some governors from re-opening their states in little over a week from now.

2. Unemployment claims numbers will be close to 30 million over the last 4 weeks. Some states declared they will be out of funds to pay unemployment benefits as early as May/June.

3. The PPP shortage will continue increase as some non-medical businesses start to order them as they start to re-open on May 1. Creating even more backlog on medical and dental services/offices PPE orders. Specially on the N95 masks, which will not be widely available for the coming months.

4. We could see more protests on state capitols - as Trump rallies them on twitter, to pressure their governors to open their states. Possible early signs of unrest in some parts of the country, as people slowly start to get desperate.

5. Congress will rush to pass more payroll stimulus for small business, but again will not enough and will be depleted within days, as banks will focus on helping the businesses that need large transactions, leaving very small businesses little to borrow - and final nail in the coffin for them to close for good.

Let’s hope I’m wrong, but this is the directions the country and our economy is heading in the short term.


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When do you think dentists will start seeing patients again for non elective procedures in hard-hit states like NY, NJ, MA?
 
When do you think dentists will start seeing patients again for non elective procedures in hard-hit states like NY, NJ, MA?

It depends.

1. When they have enough PPE’s - specially N95 masks.

2. When they comply with new dental board guidelines (less workflow in office and number of patients on the schedule).

3. When the curve flattens well below from the current 2,000 new hospitalizations per day to maybe 500 per day.

4. Even if dental offices are asked to re-open, the patients will be asked by the state to not see their dentist for elective cases unless it’s an emergency. As we have seen in Korea and China, business are now back open, but customers and patients are still at home still fearing to come out.

5. Mass testing, mass testing, mass testing... something that will be the Achille’s Heel for back to normalcy for everyone. Unfortunately, we are months away from that point.


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