Another shooting, more riots.

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Unsavory history of policing in the US. It has rarely been about justice or protecting the innocent.


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The data shows that based on population black people commit 3x as much violent crime as white people, but seriously, does that actually support the disproportionate killing of black people by police? Personally I don't think so. Fat people have a higher rate of difficult airway but I don't think every single one of them needs a FOB intubation. Strange argument but I stand by it.

I don’t understand your argument. I honestly don’t follow (about why committing so much more violent crime in proportion to demographics wouldn’t lead to statistically disproportionate deaths at the hands of police).
 
The following figure is from only 2017 where there were approximately 1150 police killings of all-comers including armed and unarmed

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Given that the majority of encounters are for suspected non-violent offenses, I would venture that the vast majority of the 150 unarmed deaths were not justified or were potentially avoidable by using non-lethal force.

maybe I’m not understanding that graph but why does how the encounter started matter at all? I mean, if you run a red light and the police stop you, then you subsequently jump out of the car and attempt to stab the police officer with a large knife and he shoots you dead— wouldnt that fall in your “unjustified” bucket??
 
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maybe I’m not understanding that graph but why does how the encounter started matter at all? I mean, if you run a red light and the police stop you, then you subsequently jump out of the car and attempt to stab the police officer with a large knife and he shoots you dead— wouldnt that fall in your “unjustified” bucket??

I said specifically I “would venture that the vast majority of the 150 unarmed deaths were not justified or were potentially avoidable by using non-lethal force..” It is logical and stands to reason that if the police show up unsolicited or they show up for a report of a non-violent offense and the unarmed suspect ends up dead then something happened that was likely avoidable and very possibly not justified .
 
I think this thread has turned into a lot of mental gymnastics about why we shouldn't hold police to a higher standard and I honestly can't believe that even the white folks on the board shrug off white people being killed by police as, "they likely deserved it." With that attitude there will never be police accountability but it almost sounds like people don't think there needs to be because the police are always correct. Sorry, I just don't buy that notion.
 
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I still think police unions should be abolished, qualified immunity eliminated, no knock warrants banned and a complete overhaul of police training.

Also end the war on drugs and demilitarize all police
 
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I honestly can't believe that even the white folks on the board shrug off white people being killed by police as, "they likely deserved it." With that attitude there will never be police accountability but it almost sounds like people don't think there needs to be because the police are always correct. Sorry, I just don't buy that notion.
I'm white, you're black, but, and I am being quite candid and honest, I'm sorry, I just can't get excited about white folks killed by police. That you can't believe that, I don't know what to say. How many unarmed black folks killed by police are killed by black police officers? Would that affect your beliefs, or change your tune?
 
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I'm white, you're black, but, and I am being quite candid and honest, I'm sorry, I just can't get excited about white folks killed by police. That you can't believe that, I don't know what to say. How many unarmed black folks killed by police are killed by black police officers? Would that affect your beliefs, or change your tune?

I can’t speak for Twig but having a black officer involved in the shooting would only change my perception slightly. I believe @AMEHigh pointed out awhile ago that many black officers wholeheartedly buy into the thin blue line stuff. It is both a police culture problem and racial problem in this country,

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Well again, and I understand you can't answer for white people as a whole, but why aren't white folks as outraged when unarmed white people are killed?
Maybe because most white people don't have a persecution mania, or a victim mentality, the lack of which are almost required for success in life.

And, despite the good intentions in its name, BLM has been muddied up seriously by many of its supporters/founders who wish for a marxist BiPoC apartheid regime (see critical race theory). THAT's what many Trumpists are outraged about. I don't hear many black people, or self-flagellating whites on the left, being against it, as ANY decent person should be.
 
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In 2019:
- 55 UNARMED people were killed by police.
- 25 white (out of 180 million people in USA)
- 14 black (40 million people)
- 11 hispanic (50 million people)

If you are unarmed it is highly highly unlikely you will be killed by the police. Regardless of race. I am almost always unarmed, therefor I do not expect to be killed by the police.

WaPo Shootings databases - scroll to bottom to filter results
 
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In 2019:
- 55 UNARMED people were killed by police.
- 25 white (out of 180 million people in USA)
- 14 black (40 million people)
- 11 hispanic (50 million people)

If you are unarmed it is highly highly unlikely you will be killed by the police. Regardless of race. I am almost always unarmed, therefor I do not expect to be killed by the police.

WaPo Shootings databases - scroll to bottom to filter results
The average physician kills more people a year than the average policeman (by degrees of magnitude, through sheer incompetence - e.g. drowning patients in IV fluids). And we can't even argue self-defense.

This is what happens in a system that is far from a meritocracy, like most of America. Contrast it with the success of highly meritocratic Asian countries. And the *****s on the left want even less merit. It's NOT racism that makes police kill; it's INCOMPETENCE. Incompetent people can make some really big mistakes when under pressure.

Those of us who are so self-righteous, and outraged about the police, had better take a good long look at our own profession, our many iatrogenic mistakes and their consequences.
 
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I think this thread has turned into a lot of mental gymnastics about why we shouldn't hold police to a higher standard
I think everybody has said the opposite

I honestly can't believe that even the white folks on the board shrug off white people being killed by police as, "they likely deserved it."
99,99% of whites (or asians i guess) will never have a police officer pull a gun on them, so yes it's hard to imagine the circumstance where an innocent non violent person ends up shot by the police (even if it happens)

the police are always correct. Sorry, I just don't buy that notion.
Nobody does.
What i (and probably others like me) think is that we avoid any kind of violent encounter with law and order precisely to not get shot at, and that a majority of people who do must have (overwhelmingly) done somthing to provoke the shooting.
 
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In 2019:
- 55 UNARMED people were killed by police.
- 25 white (out of 180 million people in USA)
- 14 black (40 million people)
- 11 hispanic (50 million people)

If you are unarmed it is highly highly unlikely you will be killed by the police. Regardless of race. I am almost always unarmed, therefor I do not expect to be killed by the police.

WaPo Shootings databases - scroll to bottom to filter results

This hits the point on it’s head. Everyone agrees police could always use better training and there are definitely bad apples that deserve prosecution/firing. But what is the MAGNITUDE of the problem? The numerator in unarmed police killings (which I give you, SOME are probably unjustified) is tiny. The denominator is probably many millions of interactions between police and unarmed citizens.

When people are protesting and rioting a case that started this thread (armed black man getting shot while approaching police with a knife and disobeying commands) .... it just makes the whole argument look even weaker!
 
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This hits the point on it’s head. Everyone agrees police could always use better training and there are definitely bad apples that deserve prosecution/firing. But what is the MAGNITUDE of the problem? The numerator in unarmed police killings (which I give you, SOME are probably unjustified) is tiny. The denominator is probably many millions of interactions between police and unarmed citizens.

When people are protesting and rioting a case that started this thread (armed black man getting shot while approaching police with a knife and disobeying commands) .... it just makes the whole argument look even weaker!

This was a bad argument in the previous thread and it’s a bad argument now. The numbers are all relative, and what you think is a subjectively low nominal number is no excuse for the US (even with our unique gun laws) being in the same company police killings-wise as 3rd world countries with rampant crime, corruption, and illegal gun ownership.

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Maybe because most white people don't have a persecution mania, or a victim mentality,

Why would they? For the most part (I.e. the occasional Catholic) white people nor their ancestors have never been persecuted or victimized in this country.
 
Why would they? For the most part (I.e. the occasional Catholic) white people nor their ancestors have ever been persecuted or victimized in this country.
Neither have been blacks in the last 50 years (out of which I have witnessed 20). Most living African Americans don't know what real (systemic) persecution is, because it simply doesn't really exist in this country.

Even 20 years ago, there was more egalitarianism in this country than in many parts of the (developed) world. I'm sure there have been bad apples (and will always be, on BOTH sides), but, if anything, I have seen more positive discrimination (i.e. whites afraid of being accused of racism, males afraid of sexism and heterosexuals accused of homophobia etc.) than the opposite, at least in my neck of woods. I have been stepping on eggshells for 20 years, because the average American is a snowflake, when compared to the average immigrant, even the older ones; one can't even tell a joke, if it's not 100% PC.

There is a huge swath of (black) politicians that's been working hard at trying to invent (racial) conflict, for political reasons. Divide and conquer! That's how one gets the uneducated vote, and even the educated one.

There is also a huge swath of un(der)educated people who tend to confuse class-based discrimination with racism.
 
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Neither have been blacks in the last 50 years (out of which I have witnessed 20).

Even 20 years ago, there was more egalitarianism in this country than in many parts of the world. I'm sure there have been bad apples (and will always be, on BOTH sides), but, if anything, I have seen more positive discrimination (i.e. whites afraid of being accused of racism, males afraid of sexism and heterosexuals accused of homophobia etc.) than the opposite, at least in my neck of woods.

There is a huge swath of (black) politicians that's been working hard at trying to invent racial conflict, for political reasons. Divide and conquer!

We’re obviously not going to agree on the issue but the idea that black people hit equality of opportunity the second lbj signed the civil rights act is nonsense.
 
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We’re obviously not going to agree on the issue but the idea that black people hit equality of opportunity the second lbj signed the civil rights act is nonsense.
Of course not. But poor blacks don't have much less opportunity than poor whites nowadays. If the Obamas could do it (and many other successful black people who grew up poor), even decades ago, any hard-working black child should be able to rise out of poverty today. And they do. Every year it gets easier. If anything, there is positive discrimination in the universities and beyond.

This country has a problem of crony capitalism, not a problem of racism.
 
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White men for 400 years: We are the privileged class and the world is our oyster. Women, black people, indigenous people, etc- you have no rights, and if you ever do get rights you will still never have a seat at the table.

Women, black people, indigenous people, etc for the last 30-50 years: We have fought tooth and nail for rights and a seat at the table, however the legacy of generations of forced inequality means we may need a generation or two of extra help to find that equal footing. We also realize that white folks are not a monolith, but it wold help if they could realize that on average they have benefitted and continue to benefit from a system which has favored them politically and economically.

White men: How dare you point out history to us. Even though jobs, education, and wealth were denied to your parents and grandparents, we expect all of you to bootstrap yourselves into success within 10 years. And even though we still control the vast majority of the Fortune 500 and all levels of government, it is clear that you are now the true oppressors.
 
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This was a bad argument in the previous thread and it’s a bad argument now. The numbers are all relative, and what you think is a subjectively low nominal number is no excuse for the US (even with our unique gun laws) being in the same company police killings-wise as 3rd world countries with rampant crime, corruption, and illegal gun ownership.

View attachment 322032
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your graphs could be evidence of worse policing in the USA than a lot of 3rd world countries. It could also be evidence of a different Sub-culture in response to authority.

I’m pretty sure that most people don’t get away alive in Iran, Egypt and parts of Africa if they approach police waving a knife or gun.

For some reason in the good old USA we have a LOT of illegal guns, combined with some cultures that think being aggressive against police is magically NOT going to result in your own bodily harm....

It’s sort of like masks- if you tell people in the USA to wear one, they are going to say f-you. Same with police- they tell you to stop doing something, more people in the USA than Egypt are going to say “go ahead and shoot me- f-you!”
 
your graphs could be evidence of worse policing on the USA than a lot of 3rd world countries. It could also be evidence of a different Sub-culture in response to authority.

I’m pretty sure that most people don’t get away alive in Iran, Egypt and parts of Africa if they approach police waving a knife or gun.

For some reason in the good old USA we have a LOT of illegal guns, combined with some cultures that think being aggressive against police is not going to result in your own bodily harm....

It’s sort of like masks- if you tell people in the USA to wear one, they are going to say f-you. Same with police- they tell you to stop doing something, more people in the USA than Egypt are going to say “go ahead and shoot me- f-you!”

“Could could could.” Nothing but excuse making for the police and vague speculative victim blaming vis a vis how aggressive you think the American public is vs how compliant you think Egyptians are. Just accept for a moment merely the possibility that there is actually a policing problem in this country.

And btw this was all in reference to you questioning the "magnitude" of the problem, as if we should just ignore police killings. No matter who you want to blame, the problem exists, is significant, and should be addressed.
 
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This country has a problem of crony capitalism, not a problem of racism.
I agree with the former and disagree with the latter. Just because there aren't separate water fountains doesn't mean there isn't a problem with racism especially the more I read the research of people like Michelle Alexander.
 
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I agree with the former and disagree with the latter. Just because there aren't separate water fountains doesn't mean there isn't a problem with racism especially the more I read the research of people like Michelle Alexander.
I haven't read Michelle Alexander, but you'd be surprised how easy it is to brainwash people, especially once an identity theory reaches critical mass. How do you think communist (or other authoritarian) countries appear? Social pressure is a powerful beast.

One thing I do know is that most social "research" cannot be trusted, unfortunately (first of all, because it's really hard to design and execute good quality studies, as a lot of stuff is hard to measure). As in medicine, as long as people are rewarded for putting out garbage, there will be a ton of garbage studies, especially when they are financed by partisan grants.
 
“Could could could.” Nothing but excuse making for the police and vague speculative victim blaming vis a vis how aggressive you think the American public is vs how compliant you think Egyptians are. Just accept for a moment merely the possibility that there is actually a policing problem in this country.

And btw this was all in reference to you questioning the "magnitude" of the problem, as if we should just ignore police killings. No matter who you want to blame, the problem exists, is significant, and should be addressed.
That's what I'm getting at exactly. I'm highlighting that over 400 unarmed white people have been killed by the police and the response I seem to be getting is a collective "Meh". This is explains why a police officer involved in a questionably justifiable killing never faces charges the attitude is "Meh". That is unless....(see post above)
 
I haven't read Michelle Alexander, but you'd be surprised how easy it is to brainwash people, especially once an identity theory reaches critical mass. How do you think communist (or other authoritarian) countries appear? Social pressure is a powerful beast.

One thing I do know is that most social "research" cannot be trusted, unfortunately. As in medicine, as long as people are rewarded for putting out garbage, there will be a ton of garbage studies.
Well maybe you should take a moment and just read half of her book and come back with your thoughts. Even I as I was reading started to have questions and found myself looking up every citation. The easy stance is to be skeptical when your inherent belief is something doesn't exist.
 
Well maybe you should take a moment and just read half of her book and come back with your thoughts. Even I as I was reading started to have questions and found myself looking up every citation. The easy stance is to be skeptical when your inherent belief is something doesn't exist.
My thoughts are that (for example):
1. As individuals, we should all have equal opportunities, independent of race, ethnicity, sexual orientation, and all the other things that are not one's choice/fault.
2. We should all be judged on INDIVIDUAL merit, and little to nothing else, wherever possible (i.e. if current tests are not good enough, develop better ones, instead of replacing tests with subjective political measures). Technocracy, not cronyism. The son should not be punished for the sins of his father, neither rewarded for his achievements.
3. Positive discrimination of a group is the same as negative discrimination of everybody else, and it should be rarely and selectively employed, with very good reason (e.g. to civilize a certain group, and bring it in line with society), not for political purposes.
4. An eye for an eye makes the whole world go blind.
5. All young people should have good opportunities (e.g. all schools are good, all children have food and shelter, the smartest and most hard-working get to go to college regardless of their background etc.). A developed country should make sure that all of its children have a chance to fulfill their true potential. even if it takes putting some children in boarding schools (for economic reasons, the same way we centralize certain blood tests).
6. Once childhood opportunities are taken care of, most adults should be on their own, based on their own merits. No nanny state. Equality of opportunities, not equality of outcomes (the latter is just a form of communism).
7. We shouldn't do onto others what we don't want done unto us (e.g. abolish filibuster, or discriminate, even positively), because tomorrow the roles may reverse.
8. The US has been great historically due to its melting pot, its Western European and Protestant heritage and (meritocratic) values. Take the melting pot away, and you'll get a conflicted country, with few things in common among citizens, possibly not even language and culture. Just look at the chasm between left and right already.
9. Like almost all countries, Americans have persecuted various minorities, overwhelmingly in the past. Historical facts should be taught in an unemotional and unbiased fashion, to avoid repeating the same mistakes. We should focus on the future, not obsess about the past (or present).
10. America is a crony nepotistic society, especially at the top, where group identity matters a lot (e.g. people shamelessly ask virtual strangers where they are from - and not their specialty board scores). At the same time, it's one of the most welcoming to foreigners who can blend in, work hard, keep their heads down, and eat crap with a smile.
11. One can't beat millions of years of Evolution. Humans act a lot based on instincts and incentives, and the best incentive is to have "skin in the game".
12. The strongest human motivator is envy.
13. The countries with the most scientifically-educated citizenry (think STEM, not social "sciences" or other forms of religion or politics) will go the farthest.

Some of these are principles and values that won't be changed, regardless how much brainwash I'm put through, either from the left or right. Others are the result of decades of life experience, hence resistant to change (i.e. one can't teach an old dog new tricks).
 
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My thoughts are that (for example):
1. As individuals, we should all have equal opportunities, independent of race, ethnicity, sexual orientation, and all the other things that are not one's choice/fault.
2. We should all be judged on INDIVIDUAL merit, and little to nothing else, wherever possible (i.e. if current tests are not good enough, develop better ones, instead of replacing tests with subjective political measures). Technocracy, not cronyism. The son should not be punished for the sins of his father, neither rewarded for his achievements.
3. Positive discrimination of a group is the same as negative discrimination of everybody else, and it should be rarely and selectively employed, with very good reason (e.g. to civilize a certain group, and bring it in line with society), not for political purposes.
4. An eye for an eye makes the whole world go blind.
5. All young people should have good opportunities (e.g. all schools are good, all children have food and shelter, the smartest and most hard-working get to go to college regardless of their background etc.). A developed country should make sure that all of its children have a chance to fulfill their true potential. even if it takes putting some children in boarding schools (for economic reasons, the same way we centralize certain blood tests).
6. Once childhood opportunities are taken care of, most adults should be on their own, based on their own merits. No nanny state. Equality of opportunities, not equality of outcomes (the latter is just a form of communism).
7. We shouldn't do onto others what we don't want done unto us (e.g. abolish filibuster, or discriminate, even positively), because tomorrow the roles may reverse.
8. The US has been great historically due to its melting pot, its Western European and Protestant heritage and (meritocratic) values. Take the melting pot away, and you'll get a conflicted country, with few things in common among citizens, possibly not even language and culture. Just look at the chasm between left and right already.
9. Like almost all countries, Americans have persecuted various minorities, overwhelmingly in the past. Historical facts should be taught in an unemotional and unbiased fashion, to avoid repeating the same mistakes. We should focus on the future, not obsess about the past (or present).
10. America is a crony nepotistic society, especially at the top, where group identity matters a lot (e.g. people shamelessly ask virtual strangers where they are from - and not their specialty board scores). At the same time, it's one of the most welcoming to foreigners who can blend in, work hard, keep their heads down, and eat crap with a smile.
11. One can't beat millions of years of Evolution. Humans act a lot based on instincts and incentives, and the best incentive is to have "skin in the game".
12. The strongest human motivator is envy.
13. The countries with the most scientifically-educated citizenry (think STEM, not social "sciences" or other forms of religion or politics) will go the farthest.

Some of these are principles and values that won't be changed, regardless how much brainwash I'm put through, either from the left or right. Others are the result of decades of life experience, hence resistant to change (i.e. one can't teach an old dog new tricks).

Wish I could like this 1000 times.

we are slowly turning from a society of opportunity and hard-work, into a victimhood society where every failing is explained by racism, history from generations ago ... leading to a never ending cycle of increasing government dependence.

despite any good intentions of this world-view we should all have the foresight to know where that ends.
 
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White men for 400 years: We are the privileged class and the world is our oyster. Women, black people, indigenous people, etc- you have no rights, and if you ever do get rights you will still never have a seat at the table.

Women, black people, indigenous people, etc for the last 30-50 years: We have fought tooth and nail for rights and a seat at the table, however the legacy of generations of forced inequality means we may need a generation or two of extra help to find that equal footing. We also realize that white folks are not a monolith, but it wold help if they could realize that on average they have benefitted and continue to benefit from a system which has favored them politically and economically.

White men: How dare you point out history to us. Even though jobs, education, and wealth were denied to your parents and grandparents, we expect all of you to bootstrap yourselves into success within 10 years. And even though we still control the vast majority of the Fortune 500 and all levels of government, it is clear that you are now the true oppressors.
The ones who expect minorities to bootstrap themselves into what they define as "success" (i.e. equality of outcomes) are not the white men.

On the contrary, it's the minorities who tend to forget that one doesn't get to multi-generational success in just one, and want everything NOW. Just listen to the radical left (the kind that's dripping of envy, hence of hate). That's the stuff of revolutions, and usually marxist ones, not of democracies.

Even in meritocracies, successful people stand on the shoulders of (many) previous generations. It's not by chance that most successful people tend to be openly grateful to their parents and families. It's not by chance that single unsupported parents and their children have a harder time. Success takes a lot of smart work and time, and the pauper becomes prince overnight mostly just in fairy tales.
 
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Wish I could like this 1000 times.

we are slowly turning from a society of opportunity and hard-work, into a victimhood society where every failing is explained by racism, history from generations ago ... leading to a never ending cycle of increasing government dependence.

despite any good intentions of this world-view we should all have the foresight to know where that ends.
So you’re saying no one is at fault when it comes to the disparity in public education? Would you send your children to public school in Westchester County or The Bronx, since all things are equal? What about the health care disparity, eg maternal health care, COVID? We all know the criminal justice system is loaded with disparity. None of these things are problems that occurred 50 years ago. They’re happening now. It’s way easier to throw up your hands and say “You minorities don’t know how good you have it” rather than to critically examine a system that does disproportionate effect a community.

This is an Internet forum full of mostly upper middle class to upper class and likely mostly white folks. I quite honestly don’t expect anyone to care, but I mostly take offense at people insulting my intelligence claiming forms of systemic discrimination and racism don’t exist. It’s “victim mentality” because we are victims and I guarantee every black doctor on this forum can give you multiple instances of some form of racism whether systemic or overt that has happened to them in the past 5-10 years.
 
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This is an Internet forum full of mostly upper middle class to upper class and likely mostly white folks. I quite honestly don’t expect anyone to care, but I mostly take offense at people insulting my intelligence claiming forms of systemic discrimination and racism don’t exist. It’s “victim mentality” because we are victims and I guarantee every black doctor on this forum can give you multiple instances of some form of racism whether systemic or overt that has happened to them in the past 5-10 years.
Don't be so sure that WASP males have never been discriminated against, or bullied for being different. No human is perfect, not even minorities. ;)

A lot of passive-aggressive stuff nowadays is probably masked discrimination, and white males get a lot of that, if you pay attention.
 
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Don't be so sure that WASP males have never been discriminated against, or bullied for being different. No human is perfect, not even minorities. ;)

A lot of passive-aggressive stuff nowadays is probably masked discrimination, and white males get a lot of that, if you pay attention.

Look up the definition of equality and equity. Even if you make the laughable notion that racism doesn't exist in the USA you support equality and not equity. I believe in equity. I think affirmative action makes sense. I think white people have a huge burden from their historic oppression of other races. I dont need you to somehow equate passive aggressive stuff towards whites today (seriously?) as equivalent to lynching of blacks back in the day.
 

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Look up the definition of equality and equity. Even if you make the laughable notion that racism doesn't exist in the USA you support equality and not equity. I believe in equity. I think affirmative action makes sense. I think white people have a huge burden from their historic oppression of other races. I dont need you to somehow equate passive aggressive stuff towards whites today (seriously?) as equivalent to lynching of blacks back in the day.
Was that what I said? Not even remotely.

Btw, this is why I don't post on this forum anymore, and why I am afraid for the future of this country. And you were supposed to be among the smart ones, eikenhein.

Personally, I never know whether I'm discriminated against for having an accent, for being male, for my name, for my looks etc. This reminds me of all the idiots who think that rich = happy.

And the reason I don't support "equity" is the same I don't support socialism, or any other form of government-mandated theft. The solution is not to put two boxes under the shortest person and zero under the tall person; the solution is to put enough (and not much different number of) boxes under everybody so that even the shortest person can see.

What you call equity (in that drawing) others would call communism. It was Karl Marx who came up with "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need". That's simply against human nature; there is no successful democratic society which is based on that. It only exists under totalitarian regimes, which sooner or later collapse.
 
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Look up the definition of equality and equity. Even if you make the laughable notion that racism doesn't exist in the USA you support equality and not equity. I believe in equity. I think affirmative action makes sense. I think white people have a huge burden from their historic oppression of other races. I dont need you to somehow equate passive aggressive stuff towards whites as equivalent to lynching of blacks back in the day.

You're making a strawman argument with a silly analogy.

What if there were multiple middle-height guys?
Are there only 3 boxes in the entire stadium?
How much violence are you willing to inflict on the tall guy to get him to give up his box?
Why is no one paying for a ticket?

You believe in equity? Be careful I think we could also draw an equity/equality cartoon with your attending paycheck as the tall guy...
 
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I think the conversation get nowhere because people go off on these wild tangents and never want to address the issues at hand. Lets steer back towards the original topic somewhat. Is the criminal justice system equal and if you think it is explain how so?
 
Look up the definition of equality and equity. Even if you make the laughable notion that racism doesn't exist in the USA you support equality and not equity. I believe in equity. I think affirmative action makes sense. I think white people have a huge burden from their historic oppression of other races. I dont need you to somehow equate passive aggressive stuff towards whites today (seriously?) as equivalent to lynching of blacks back in the day.
I will belly laugh myself stupid if someone can come on here and say something such as public education is equal or equitable.
 
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Look up the definition of equality and equity. Even if you make the laughable notion that racism doesn't exist in the USA you support equality and not equity. I believe in equity. I think affirmative action makes sense. I think white people have a huge burden from their historic oppression of other races. I dont need you to somehow equate passive aggressive stuff towards whites today (seriously?) as equivalent to lynching of blacks back in the day.

So we should have unequal laws, discriminate against people based on race, until we have equal outcomes? Because that is how we would attempt to achieve equity. Will outcomes ever be equal? I’d rather live in a country with equal laws, regardless of race/religion/gender and outcomes may vary.
 
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The ones who expect minorities to bootstrap themselves into what they define as "success" (i.e. equality of outcomes) are not the white men.

On the contrary, it's the minorities who tend to forget

On the whole this is just a plainly false assertion that is not supported by the evidence.


Post-emancipation proclamation, we get 100 years of Jim Crow ensuring that black people do not really have the right to vote, right to attend the same schools, right to hold the same jobs, right to live in the same neighborhoods, and the right to amass an equivalent amount of wealth. Places like Black Wall Street which could've been the start of multigenerational wealth are burned to the ground.

Post-Jim Crow, the politicians who are now using the Southern Strategy to win over former Dixiecrats-now-GOP are forced to use different tactics. Subjugation and disenfranchisement are no longer couched in overt racist language- the policies are more subtle. One more time for the cheap seats, our friend Lee Atwater in 1981:

"You start out in 1954 by saying, “N---, n---, n---.” By 1968 you can’t say “n---”—that hurts you, backfires. So you say stuff like, uh, forced busing, states’ rights, and all that stuff, and you’re getting so abstract. Now, you’re talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you’re talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is, blacks get hurt worse than whites.… “We want to cut this,” is much more abstract than even the busing thing, uh, and a hell of a lot more abstract than “N---, n--”​
And what's the legacy of their policies? In the 60s it is still extraordinarily difficult for black people to find parity in housing, education, and jobs, and by the 70s and then 80s we have Reagan falsely demonizing and stereotyping mechanisms of government which give people a hand up while simultaneously worsening the racist War on Drugs and encouraging harsher sentences for crack cocaine (used predominantly by black people) while powder cocaine (used predominantly by whites) gets a relative slap on the wrist.

Ultimately, you have conservatives doing what? They attempted and continue to attempt to demonize and destroy the public education system which would benefit POC who are less than two generations removed from even being able to attend the same schools as white people. They are anti- free public higher education unlike every other 1st world country. They are anti- medicaid, food stamps, TANF, WIC, and housing assistance, which are things that actually give people the chance to pull themselves out of poverty by being able to focus on betterment vs merely subsistence. They run full steam ahead with our corrupt and draconian criminal justice system which gives black people harsher sentences and more frequently doles out the death penalty for the same crimes. Meanwhile, the system has plenty of examples of redlining mortgages for POC, discriminating against black names when looking at resumes, and continuining to attempt to disenfranchise voters in minority neighborhoods and counties.

The President of the United States of America was just on TV trying to scare suburban women by telling them "Cory Booker and the projects" are coming to their neighborhoods. But it's minorities whose expectations are too high? I don't think so.
 
On the whole this is just a plainly false assertion that is not supported by the evidence.


Post-emancipation proclamation, we get 100 years of Jim Crow ensuring that black people do not really have the right to vote, right to attend the same schools, right to hold the same jobs, right to live in the same neighborhoods, and the right to amass an equivalent amount of wealth. Places like Black Wall Street which could've been the start of multigenerational wealth are burned to the ground.

Post-Jim Crow, the politicians who are now using the Southern Strategy to win over former Dixiecrats-now-GOP are forced to use different tactics. Subjugation and disenfranchisement are no longer couched in overt racist language- the policies are more subtle. One more time for the cheap seats, our friend Lee Atwater in 1981:

"You start out in 1954 by saying, “N---, n---, n---.” By 1968 you can’t say “n---”—that hurts you, backfires. So you say stuff like, uh, forced busing, states’ rights, and all that stuff, and you’re getting so abstract. Now, you’re talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you’re talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is, blacks get hurt worse than whites.… “We want to cut this,” is much more abstract than even the busing thing, uh, and a hell of a lot more abstract than “N---, n--”​
And what's the legacy of their policies? In the 60s it is still extraordinarily difficult for black people to find parity in housing, education, and jobs, and by the 70s and then 80s we have Reagan falsely demonizing and stereotyping mechanisms of government which give people a hand up while simultaneously worsening the racist War on Drugs and encouraging harsher sentences for crack cocaine (used predominantly by black people) while powder cocaine (used predominantly by whites) gets a relative slap on the wrist.

Ultimately, you have conservatives doing what? They attempted and continue to attempt to demonize and destroy the public education system which would benefit POC who are less than two generations removed from even being able to attend the same schools as white people. They are anti- free public higher education unlike every other 1st world country. They are anti- medicaid, food stamps, TANF, WIC, and housing assistance, which are things that actually give people the chance to pull themselves out of poverty by being able to focus on betterment vs merely subsistence. They run full steam ahead with our corrupt and draconian criminal justice system which gives black people harsher sentences and more frequently doles out the death penalty for the same crimes. Meanwhile, the system has plenty of examples of redlining mortgages for POC, discriminating against black names when looking at resumes, and continuining to attempt to disenfranchise voters in minority neighborhoods and counties.

The President of the United States of America was just on TV trying to scare suburban women by telling them "Cory Booker and the projects" are coming to their neighborhoods. But it's minorities whose expectations are too high? I don't think so.
Please explain the existence of many successful POC, in such a draconian society. Please explain all the POC who (want to) immigrate to such an awful place.

I'm sorry, but I'm having trouble blaming only the whites here. Yes, we do need educational and criminal reform, and a better social safety net for the poor, but further inequality and discrimination of any kind (even with the best of intentions) will just fan the flames and destroy the country.

Equity is a losing proposition. No socialist/communist revolution has ever pushed a society forward; most of them almost died of famine and poverty, after killing their revolutionary leaders.
 
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And the reason I don't support "equity" is the same I don't support socialism, or any other form of government-mandated theft. The solution is not to put two boxes under the shortest person and zero under the tall person; the solution is to put enough (and not much different number of) boxes under everybody so that even the shortest person can see.

Don't get me wrong, we are mostly on the same page regarding what this country needs to do with education, but uhhh....doesn't what you wrote here just a wee bit like socialism?

"5. All young people should have good opportunities (e.g. all schools are good, all children have food and shelter, the smartest and most hard-working get to go to college regardless of their background etc.). A developed country should make sure that all of its children have a chance to fulfill their true potential. even if it takes putting some children in boarding schools (for economic reasons, the same way we centralize certain blood tests). "

Or are you saying that everyone should have these opportunities and the schools and colleges should be good but the students still have to pay for it out of pocket or with loans? Because if you're saying that excellent public education from K through college should be free then that is definitely democratic socialism.
 
Please explain the existence of many successful POC, in such a draconian society. Please explain all the POC who (want to) immigrate to such an awful place.

I'm sorry, but I'm having trouble blaming only the whites here. Yes, we do need educational and criminal reform, and a better social safety net for the poor, but further inequality and discrimination of any kind (even with the best of intentions) will just fan the flames and destroy the country.

Equity is a losing proposition. No socialist/communist revolution has ever pushed a society forward; most of them almost died of famine and poverty, after killing their revolutionary leaders.

Jackie Robinson still played in the MLB when Jim Crow was ongoing. With regard to systemic discrimination, just because you can find sporadic examples it does not invalidate the thesis that on a population level, generation to generation, POC have not and still do not have equality of opportunity.

I do not think White People™ bear 100% of the blame for the inequalities we see in today's America. Likewise, I do not think bipoc individuals or individual communities who have not yet reached their potential are entirely without fault. I do think though that white people tend to minimize the historical context which has allowed them to dominate (and continue to dominate) the highest levels of finance, education, government, etc because it's more psychologically soothing to chalk it up solely to "merit"
 
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So we should have unequal laws, discriminate against people based on race, until we have equal outcomes? Because that is how we would attempt to achieve equity. Will outcomes ever be equal? I’d rather live in a country with equal laws, regardless of race/religion/gender and outcomes may vary.
We could have equal laws in this country if things were equal/equitable for everyone. Our country literally had to amend it's constitution and makes acts of Congress because people of a certain skin tone weren't being treated fairly. An strong argument against Affirmative Action would be much more legit if education was equal across the board but we're all smart enough and well read enough to know that's not the case. We can talk about "equal spending per student" all we want but we know the caliber of a public school in say, Irvington, NY isn't the same a public school in the south side of Chicago.

Edit: We actually do have equal laws on paper
 
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Don't get me wrong, we are mostly on the same page regarding what this country needs to do with education, but uhhh....doesn't what you wrote here just a wee bit like socialism?

"5. All young people should have good opportunities (e.g. all schools are good, all children have food and shelter, the smartest and most hard-working get to go to college regardless of their background etc.). A developed country should make sure that all of its children have a chance to fulfill their true potential. even if it takes putting some children in boarding schools (for economic reasons, the same way we centralize certain blood tests). "

Or are you saying that everyone should have these opportunities and the schools and colleges should be good but the students still have to pay for it out of pocket or with loans? Because if you're saying that excellent public education from K through college should be free then that is definitely democratic socialism.
One can't have civilization without a degree of social protection. The debate shouldn't be about if, but about how much. The so-called democratic socialists are anything but democratic; they are more akin to thieves.

I think every civilized society should have good social protections for children. That's a no-brainer. That's investing in the country's future.

Free college is debatable, given that American colleges don't have meritocratic admissions (unlike the European ones), we already have college graduates who take jobs that don't need a college degree (a certain bartender comes to mind), and Americans are not used to the much higher European taxes and much lower European salaries.

Generally, I think adults should have enough "skin in the game", so nothing that costs society a lot should be even close to free for its individual members. People don't appreciate "free", people abuse and waste "free". Like they say in communism: everybody's property is nobody's property (so nobody gives a crap).
 
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We could have equal laws in this country if things were equal/equitable for everyone. Our country literally had to amend it's constitution and makes acts of Congress because people of a certain skin tone weren't being treated fairly. An strong argument against Affirmative Action would be much more legit if education was equal across the board but we're all smart enough and well read enough to know that's not the case. We can talk about "equal spending per student" all we want but we know the caliber of a public school in say, Irvington, NY isn't the same a public school in the south side of Chicago.

I agree education is in no way equal. However, there’s a lot of research out there that dollars spent per student does not correlate with educational outcomes.
For example, D.C. spends $23k/student. That’s essentially same cost as private school and the public schools are terrible.

Parents don’t like to hear it, but kids family and their involvement/view of education likely has the biggest impact in a kids educational success.
 
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We could have equal laws in this country if things were equal/equitable for everyone. Our country literally had to amend it's constitution and makes acts of Congress because people of a certain skin tone weren't being treated fairly. An strong argument against Affirmative Action would be much more legit if education was equal across the board but we're all smart enough and well read enough to know that's not the case. We can talk about "equal spending per student" all we want but we know the caliber of a public school in say, Irvington, NY isn't the same a public school in the south side of Chicago.

Edit: We actually do have equal laws on paper
I hope you do realize that the 3/5 ratio was about limiting Southern political power. Otherwise, the South would have had even more electors and representatives in the House. It was a political compromise, because otherwise we might still say "God Save The Queen", and be about as "rich" as other former British colonies.

Unfortunately, traditions are more important than laws. And while traditions cannot be changed overnight, they ARE changing. Even the blind can see that.

That's also one of the things that seriously bothers politicians. What will they harp about, if they can't scapegoat others anymore? So then they complain that things are not changing enough, or fast enough, or invent problems that don't exist. And the sheep follow them, with their chorus: four feet good, two feet bad!
 
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I hope you do realize that the 3/5 ratio was about limiting Southern political power. Otherwise, the South would have had even more electors and representatives in the House.

It was a political compromise, because otherwise we might still say "God Save The Queen", and be about as "rich" as other former British colonies.
I'm referring to the 14th Amendment's Equal Protection Clause and the Civil Rights Act and Voting Rights Act
 
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And it's actually the 6-3 SCOTUS and the 14th Amendment that will give many anti-Affirmative Action people the win they've been looking for but if anyone thinks they colleges/universities will give on diversity because of it I've got a bridge in New York City to sell you. They'll just remove the language
 
We could have equal laws in this country if things were equal/equitable for everyone. Our country literally had to amend it's constitution and makes acts of Congress because people of a certain skin tone weren't being treated fairly. An strong argument against Affirmative Action would be much more legit if education was equal across the board but we're all smart enough and well read enough to know that's not the case. We can talk about "equal spending per student" all we want but we know the caliber of a public school in say, Irvington, NY isn't the same a public school in the south side of Chicago.

Edit: We actually do have equal laws on paper

I’m all for investing more in early education, public schools and enforcing those “equal laws on paper” - we can all agree on that.

Policies like affirmative action (ie positive discrimination) are terrible. Not only do they create more resentment and polarization of society, they actually hurt those meant to help (ie, black and brown people) because they make other suspicious of the qualifications/merits of those that actually have “made it.”

The opportunity piece is truly hard, because no matter the amount of money you invest into kids, having a single parent household or a cultural upbringing that doesn’t value education make a 10 fold difference compared to the public infrastructure available. This has been shown time and time again. It’s the parents that matter- not the school (and interestingly, biggest factor not being wealth of parents, as poor Asian kids do great). Not sure how to solve this deep issue but what we are doing (ie affirmative action) is making things worse and is an abject failure.
 
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That's always been a lame excuse.

19 year old Marine lance corporals pulling duty in Al Qaim or Kandahar can somehow abide by pretty strict ROE. Lower pay, more dangerous, actual war vs fictitious War On Thing, and yet their ability to assess threats and discourage aggression without opening fire is excellent.

I don't know why the difference in capability is so stark, ..
Answer is simple.

Training. Marines train 95% of the time.

Cops train....well never.
 
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I’m all for investing more in early education, public schools and enforcing those “equal laws on paper” - we can all agree on that.

Policies like affirmative action (ie positive discrimination) are terrible. Not only do they create more resentment and polarization of society, they actually hurt those meant to help (ie, black and brown people) because they make other suspicious of the qualifications/merits of those that actually have “made it.”

The opportunity piece is truly hard, because no matter the amount of money you invest into kids, having a single parent household or a cultural upbringing that doesn’t value education make a 10 fold difference compared to the public infrastructure available. This has been shown time and time again. It’s the parents that matter- not the school (and interestingly, biggest factor not being wealth of parents, as poor Asian kids do great). Not sure how to solve this deep issue but what we are doing (ie affirmative action) is making things worse and is an abject failure.
When one tells poor people to try and learn from the successful minorities, to try and emulate those cultures, they get upset. They also get upset if you point out the parts of their culture that make them prone to failure.

You can give a million dollars to a poor person; that won't make him a millionaire. It will only make him a poor person with a million dollars to waste (see most lottery winners). Then what?

True wealth comes mostly through education and personal/familial growth. There is no shortcut, except through theft (or marriage). What we do need is good education and opportunities for all young people, so that they can focus on their education and not on survival. Except that an educated citizenry is much harder to fool, so both parties are fighting tooth and nail against meaningful reform.
 
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