Another shooting, more riots.

[doctalaughs]

Philadelphia sees more protests and looting as authorities investigate police shooting of Black man with knife

Protesters took to the streets for a second night after officers in Philadelphia shot and killed a Black man who was holding a knife in an encounter city officials say raises questions.

www.cnn.com

I understand *some* of the prior protests but can’t understand this one.... if someone (doesn’t matter race, doesn’t matter mental health issues) comes at you with a big knife as a police officer- a taser or non-lethal force isn't really an option. Does anyone think it is?

Are we rioting and burning random businesses now every time the police kill someone black?

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[Kevin Durant]

Are we rioting and burning random businesses now every time the police kill someone black?

To the low-IQ populace of this country, yes. That's about all the nuance their tiny brains can comprehend.

 

[vector2]

 

[ProRealDoc]

Clearly a double standard.

 

[doctalaughs]

can you post the source and story for the white guy in the video? Watching it, he absolutely 100% should have been shot dead — although context is everything.

 

[ThetisAntithesis]

To the low-IQ populace of this country, yes. That's about all the nuance their tiny brains can comprehend.

Not sure you needed to respond this way. You not agreeing with the reason they protest and they seeing a different angle does not warrant an insult of their intelligence. And given race is involved here, you're treading on dangerous ground with your comment.

 

[vector2]

can you post the source and story for the white guy in the video? Watching it, he absolutely 100% should have been shot dead — although context is everything.

I've been trying to find it but I cant find the original news story. Although I can't imagine any words or context that would mitigate him walking up to that officer at that pace wielding a knife.



Here's another good one

 

[doctalaughs]

I've been trying to find it but I cant find the original news story. Although I can't imagine any words or context that would mitigate him walking up to that officer at that pace wielding a knife.



Here's another good one

I’m not sure that 2nd video makes much of a point because the police rather than shooting repeatedly hit that guy 3-4 times with a car, on purpose, to take him down.... not exactly a viable or standard “non-leathal” option in most cases. I’m pretty sure if he closed distance with any of the 6 officers with drawn guns they would have (justifiably) shot him.

Anyway... my point is that if racial protesters want buy-in from the general populace they should start being more selective with what they protest. I feel that since Floyd (when they had broad support) they have been steadily loosing support over news/protests like one one above.

 

[agammaglobulin]

Facts haven't mattered for a while now (Jacob Blake, Breonna Taylor, Latrell Allen). Black person shot by cops = riots.

 

[vector2]

I’m not sure that 2nd video makes much of a point because the police rather than shooting repeatedly hit that guy 3-4 times with a car, on purpose, to take him down.... not exactly a viable or standard “non-leathal” option in most cases. I’m pretty sure if he closed distance with any of the 6 officers with drawn guns they would have (justifiably) shot him.

Anyway... my point is that if racial protesters want buy-in from the general populace they should start being more selective with what they protest. I feel that since Floyd (when they had broad support) they have been steadily loosing support over news/protests like one one above.

But it was non-lethal and appeared to be intended as such. The point is that there are many instances where police are going out of their way to not fire 25 rounds immediately at a suspect wielding a knife, and more broadly the point is that the police are not applying non-lethal force (or an attempt at non-lethal force) consistently.

 

[Kevin Durant]

Not sure you needed to respond this way. You not agreeing with the reason they protest and they seeing a different angle does not warrant an insult of their intelligence. And given race is involved here, you're treading on dangerous ground with your comment.

BLM rioters and anti-maskers are on opposite ends of the spectrum, but they're all on the spectrum nonetheless.

 

[Twiggidy]

I dunno....I feel like the police have forgotten how to incapacitate someone. Whatever happened to shooting someone in the leg? I’m not a police so it’s easy for me to Monday morning quarterback, but still....

 

[deleted162650]

I dunno....I feel like the police have forgotten how to incapacitate someone. Whatever happened to shooting someone in the leg?

Police are not trained to do this - nor should they be. Cue @pgg for a more eloquently worded explanation of why than I can provide.

 

[Twiggidy]

Police are not trained to do this - nor should they be. Cue @pgg for a more eloquently worded explanation of why than I can provide.

I mean I partially agree they shouldn’t be trained to do so because I would imagine lots of people getting shot in the leg. I will also add I don’t agree with the rioting to add to my opinion

 

[coffeebythelake]

Facts haven't mattered for a while now (Jacob Blake, Breonna Taylor, Latrell Allen). Black person shot by cops = riots.

What does that mean? Facts haven't mattered? You saying that Breonna Taylor somehow threatened a police officer and was justified to be killed? Don't try to minimize the fact that America is a damned racist country, systemic racism is present in many police forces, and Blacks tend to see the brunt of the racism.

 

[agammaglobulin]

I dunno....I feel like the police have forgotten how to incapacitate someone. Whatever happened to shooting someone in the leg? I’m not a police so it’s easy for me to Monday morning quarterback, but still....

It’s hard to be accurate with a gun. Especially pistols. I’ve gone shooting a couple times and trying to hit a 1 foot wide target 10 feet away, that isn’t moving, is surprisingly hard.

What does that mean? Facts haven't mattered? You saying that Breonna Taylor somehow threatened a police officer and was justified to be killed? Don't try to minimize the fact that America is a damned racist country and Blacks tend to see the brunt of the racism.

My point is the population at large doesn’t wait for details (facts) of these cases before deciding to riot and destroy property. Big difference between the Jacob Blake/Latrell Allen cases and George Floyd. I’m not saying the US doesn’t have racism.

edit: re Breonna Taylor, yes she was an innocent bystander in a gun fight with the police. She didn’t deserve to die. But the cops who shot her aren’t racist for returning fire from her boyfriend that ultimately resulted in her getting shot.

 

[coffeebythelake]

My only point is the population at large doesn’t wait for details (facts) of these cases before deciding to riot and destroy property. I’m not saying the US doesn’t have racism.

There are people who take advantage of these circumstances to loot and create havoc. They are not protestors. There is no message they are trying to convey. There is nothing political about their motivations. It is all about destruction and personal enrichment. I live in Chicagoland. When George Floyd was murdered, there were mostly peaceful protests and there were looters (some of which were identified as out-of-town whites).

Still very curious (and suspicious) why you SPECIFICALLY have to mention Breonna Taylor and others when you said facts don't matter. The facts were clearly that she was unarmed, not a threat, and was shot by trigger happy police officer recklessly firing blindly into a dark apartment building. Perhaps you should get YOUR facts straight.

 

[chocomorsel]

can you post the source and story for the white guy in the video? Watching it, he absolutely 100% should have been shot dead — although context is everything.

People are gonna always try to find excuses to excuse clearly biased behavior even when it’s staring them in the face.
SMH

 

[doctalaughs]

People are gonna always try to find excuses to excuse clearly biased behavior even when it’s staring them in the face.
SMH

The two sets of cops in the videos posted side by side were different people and if anything — the ones letting a white guy wave a knife in their faces 3 inches away for several minutes while trying to talk him down were the ones wildly out-of-line... if that video is even real.

I mean, if that’s real, those cops wives and children should be outraged they had no regard for their own lives.

Would you willingly let someone wave a knife around your face/neck not knowing if they were about to stab you? Is it reasonable we ask police to do so?

 

[nimbus]

Not sure what’s going on here. Hard to tell the good guys from the bad. Who’s rioting?

 

[coffeebythelake]

The two sets of cops in the videos posted side by side were different people and if anything — the ones letting a white guy wave a knife in their faces 3 inches away for several minutes while trying to talk him down were the ones wildly out-of-line... if that video is even real.

I mean, if that’s real, those cops wives and children should be outraged they had no regard for their own lives.

Would you willingly let someone wave a knife around your face/neck not knowing if they were about to stab you? Is it reasonable we ask police to do so?

You only present TWO options in your scenario.

Police Shoot Suspect
vs.
Suspect Stabs Police

There are more than TWO options available.
But hey if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail

 

[greatnt249]

Whatever happened to shooting someone in the leg?

A gunshot wound to the leg can be just as lethal as a gunshot wound to the chest, and you are more likely to miss your target trying to do so. Missing your target means the potential for having stray bullets hitting innocent bystanders. Not to mention that if you do hit someone in the leg, that doesn't guarantee the fight is over; people don't just drop after getting shot once (or even several times).

 

[Twiggidy]

I'm sorry but this is not a riot situation in my book. You should know better than to approach the police with a knife. Forget all the "what if he was white?" stuff because we know that's not how the game is played. Unfortunate situation and I have no problem saying that if it were going to happen I wish it would've happened a week later.

 

[Southpaw]

Police are not trained to do this - nor should they be. Cue @pgg for a more eloquently worded explanation of why than I can provide.

you probably don’t want to get into it, and really neither do I because the path of the argument leads to nowhereville. But if fresh high school grads can get on board with a mission in the military that isn’t always shoot to kill, then my guess is police can do the same with proper training.

we can all admit that police by and large aren’t the most open minded people and easiest to deal with, generally speaking. For whatever reason many of them also seem to have thin skin. Yes I am making generalizations based on what I see, hear, and read.

Regardless, more killings lead to more riots leads to more distrust of police in the minority communities. Cycle repeats. It’s a problem America must face and solve without all the emotion present.

and you’re right, @pgg has much better insight into this than most.

 

[Twiggidy]

A gunshot wound the leg can be just as lethal as a gunshot wound to the chest, and you are more likely to miss your target trying to do so. Missing your target means the potential for having stray bullets hitting innocent bystanders. Not to mention that if you do hit someone in the leg, that doesn't guarantee the fight is over; people don't just drop after getting shot once (or even several times).

I do buy into that logic knowing good well if I were in these police shoes I probably would've done the same. You can't be out here waving knives at the police. That's death sentence.

 

[agammaglobulin]

There are people who take advantage of these circumstances to loot and create havoc. They are not protestors. There is no message they are trying to convey. There is nothing political about their motivations. It is all about destruction and personal enrichment. I live in Chicagoland. When George Floyd was murdered, there were mostly peaceful protests and there were looters (some of which were identified as out-of-town whites).

Still very curious (and suspicious) why you SPECIFICALLY have to mention Breonna Taylor and others when you said facts don't matter. The facts were clearly that she was unarmed, not a threat, and was shot by trigger happy police officer recklessly firing blindly into a dark apartment building. Perhaps you should get YOUR facts straight.

Details of Breonna Case. Kentucky paper, seems like a legit source.

From the article:
After about a minute and hearing no response from inside, police use a battering ram to knock in the front door.

Inside, Walker (HER BOYFRIEND) had grabbed his gun as both he and Taylor pulled on clothes and went to answer the door. They left the bedroom and hadn't made it down the hallway before the door "comes off its hinges," he said.

12:42 a.m.: Neighbors in the St. Anthony Garden Apartments call 911 to report gunshots.

Walker says he fires one shot as a warning, aimed at the ground, still unable to see and unclear who is at the door. Mattingly and detectives Myles Cosgrove and Brett Hankison return fire.

12:43 a.m.: Officers on scene call dispatch to report an officer had been shot. Officials say this was the shot Walker fired. Taylor is struck in the return fire by police.

12:47 a.m.: Walker calls 911 and says, "Somebody kicked in the door and shot my girlfriend."

12:48 a.m.: Taylor's official time of death.

End Article quote.

It appears her boyfriend (Walker) shot at the police, hit the police, and the police returned fire. She died. Unfortunate it ended this way, but when you shoot at the police, they are going to shoot back.

 

[ThetisAntithesis]

Its the way american cops are trained. The UK has a problem with knife-injuries but yet have only had 3 fatal police shootings in 2019 (most recent data I found)
The training here does not teach de-escalation at all.

The police here kill more people than in any "developed" country.

 

[coffeebythelake]

Details of Breonna Case. Kentucky paper, seems like a legit source.

From the article:
After about a minute and hearing no response from inside, police use a battering ram to knock in the front door.

Inside, Walker (HER BOYFRIEND) had grabbed his gun as both he and Taylor pulled on clothes and went to answer the door. They left the bedroom and hadn't made it down the hallway before the door "comes off its hinges," he said.

12:42 a.m.: Neighbors in the St. Anthony Garden Apartments call 911 to report gunshots.

Walker says he fires one shot as a warning, aimed at the ground, still unable to see and unclear who is at the door. Mattingly and detectives Myles Cosgrove and Brett Hankison return fire.

12:43 a.m.: Officers on scene call dispatch to report an officer had been shot. Officials say this was the shot Walker fired. Taylor is struck in the return fire by police.

12:47 a.m.: Walker calls 911 and says, "Somebody kicked in the door and shot my girlfriend."

12:48 a.m.: Taylor's official time of death.

End Article quote.

It appears her boyfriend (Walker) shot at the police, hit the police, and the police returned fire. She died. Unfortunate it ended this way, but when you shoot at the police, they are going to shoot back.

Only One Officer Was Charged in Breonna Taylor’s Killing

A member of the grand jury claims they were never given the option to indict the other two officers.

www.thecut.com

This was a botched police raid, with a no-knock warrant for a suspect who didn't live in the house, plainclothes officers, in the middle of the damn night. It is unclear if police actually identified themselves as such (they said they did, but that kind of defeats the purposes of a no-knock warrant and the battering ram huh?), no body cam (so it is he-said she-said). Unarmed bystander is killed by police who "return fire" blindly and recklessly after a person defend themselves from home invasion. No narcotics were ever present on property. The boyfriend was not on the warrant and had no criminal history. Charges against the boyfriend were quickly dismissed. City settled for $12 million. Charges were brought up against the police but were many were dismissed because of what appears to be prosecutorial misconduct / DA-police buddy-buddies.

Your "legit source" doesn't seem quite as "legit" now. If it was it wouldn't be so contentious in its details would it?

I used to give the police the benefit-of-the-doubt given the nature of their work, but every year it gets tougher and tougher to try to defend their actions when **** like this goes down.

 

[gasdoc77]

Its the way american cops are trained. The UK has a problem with knife-injuries but yet have only had 3 fatal police shootings in 2019 (most recent data I found)
The training here does not teach de-escalation at all.

The police here kill more people than in any "developed" country.

The Police mantra in the states is "you will respect my authoraTIE"(cue Cartman voice). It is an ignorant, narrow world view that (with occasional exceptions) attracts ignorant, narrow minded candidates.

 

[AMEHigh]

I'm sorry but this is not a riot situation in my book. You should know better than to approach the police with a knife. Forget all the "what if he was white?" stuff because we know that's not how the game is played. Unfortunate situation and I have no problem saying that if it were going to happen I wish it would've happened a week later.

This person was diagnosed with bipolar disorder and was prescribed lithium per what I’ve read. There are all sorts of things that people "should know better than to do," but don’t do them for a variety of reasons including mental illness. The mentally ill are more likely to be killed by the police, specifically mentally ill men. Somehow the police are able to respond differently to women. It seems this person didn’t need police yelling at him with guns drawn. There have been countless examples of the police not de-escalating the situation when that is warranted.

People with knives (and guns) do exist in other "rich" countries, yet the police in the US have the highest rate of killing people in comparison.

It’s ridiculous and everyone should be pissed and want change.

 

[ThetisAntithesis]

The Police mantra in the states is "you will respect my authoraTIE"(cue Cartman voice). It is an ignorant, narrow world view that (with occasional exceptions) attracts ignorant, narrow minded candidates.

100% agree. The police force seems to be made up of a bunch of bullies with guns who were picked because they were candidates from the class of 1972 'Most like to kill an unarmed civilian'

 

[agammaglobulin]

Only One Officer Was Charged in Breonna Taylor’s Killing

A member of the grand jury claims they were never given the option to indict the other two officers.

www.thecut.com

This was a botched police raid, with a no-knock warrant for a suspect who didn't live in the house, plainclothes officers, in the middle of the damn night. It is unclear if police actually identified themselves as such (they said they did, but that kind of defeats the purposes of a no-knock warrant and the battering ram huh?), no body cam (so it is he-said she-said). Unarmed bystander is killed by police who "return fire" blindly and recklessly after a person defend themselves from home invasion. No narcotics were ever present on property. The boyfriend was not on the warrant. Charges against the boyfriend were quickly dismissed. City settled for $12 million. Charges were brought up against the police but were many were dismissed because of what appears to be prosecutorial misconduct / DA-police buddy-buddies.

Your "legit source" doesn't seem quite as "legit" now. If it was it wouldn't be so contentious in its details would it?

I used to give the police the benefit-of-the-doubt given the nature of their work, but every year it gets tougher and tougher to try to defend their actions.

You realize the info from this site is based off of Taylor's family lawsuit? That's hardly objective.

If you read the article I posted it starts with why Walker's apartment received a warrant. "

In the affidavit for the warrant, Jaynes wrote that:

• Glover's car had made "frequent" trips to Taylor's Springfield Drive apartment.
• Glover walked directly into Taylor's apartment on Jan. 16.
• A U.S. postal inspector verified Glover received packages at Taylor's apartment.
• Taylor's car had been seen in front of Elliott Avenue on "different occasions."

"

Glover's residence was searched at the same time as Taylor's and police found guns, cash and drugs...

Regardless, I'm not trying to defend the police raid of her apartment. I'm not trying to say no knock warrants are a good thing, but they are legal. I'm simply saying when you shoot at the police, they are going to shoot back. Where is the racism or police brutality in this case? Looks to me like a legal warrant served and a innocent bystander getting shot. Vastly different than George Floyd.

 

[Southpaw]

You realize the info from this site is based off of Taylor's family lawsuit? That's hardly objective.

If you read the article I posted it starts with why Walker's apartment received a warrant. "

In the affidavit for the warrant, Jaynes wrote that:

• Glover's car had made "frequent" trips to Taylor's Springfield Drive apartment.
• Glover walked directly into Taylor's apartment on Jan. 16.
• A U.S. postal inspector verified Glover received packages at Taylor's apartment.
• Taylor's car had been seen in front of Elliott Avenue on "different occasions."

"

Glover's residence was searched at the same time as Taylor's and police found guns, cash and drugs...

Regardless, I'm not trying to defend the police raid of her apartment. I'm not trying to say no knock warrants are a good thing, but they are legal. I'm simply saying when you shoot at the police, they are going to shoot back. Where is the racism or police brutality in this case? Looks to me like a legal warrant served and a innocent bystander getting shot. Vastly different than George Floyd.

Breonna Taylor is one more tragedy in our failed war on drugs. @pgg said it best when this was discussed a while back.

 

[Twiggidy]

This person was diagnosed with bipolar disorder and was prescribed lithium per what I’ve read. There are all sorts of things that people "should know better than to do," but don’t do them for a variety of reasons including mental illness. The mentally ill are more likely to be killed by the police, specifically mentally ill men. Somehow the police are able to respond differently to women. It seems this person didn’t need police yelling at him with guns drawn. There have been countless examples of the police not de-escalating the situation when that is warranted.

People with knives (and guns) do exist in other "rich" countries, yet the police in the US have the highest rate of killing people in comparison.

It’s ridiculous and everyone should be pissed and want change.

What you’re saying is absolutely correct but it is also absolutely justified for the police to protect themselves. I will give full disclosure that I haven’t watched the video because I just don’t have the bandwidth at this current moment. From what I know, this isn’t the same as George Floyd which was absolutely a murder.

 

[Twiggidy]

Breonna Taylor is one more tragedy in our failed war on drugs. @pgg said it best when this was discussed a while back.

100% correct. I’m m very tired of the drug war which is more a war on black and brown folks

 

[AMEHigh]

What you’re saying is absolutely correct but it is also absolutely justified for the police to protect themselves. I will give full disclosure that I haven’t watched the video because I just don’t have the bandwidth at this current moment. From what I know, this isn’t the same as George Floyd which was absolutely a murder.

I would recommend to not watch the video. It unfortunately showed up on my twitter feed before I knew what it was. Overall though yes the police should be able to protect themselves but why are police able to do that in other countries without killing people at such a high rate? And why are police able to protect themselves better without killing as many non-mentally ill and white women for example.

 

[drmwvr]

Wonder how anesthesiologists would fare in the court of public opinion if all we had to show for a bad outcome was an 39 second twitter video....

 

[vector2]

Wonder how anesthesiologists would fare in the court of public opinion if all we had to show for a bad outcome was an 39 second twitter video....

Sometimes more context isn't necessarily needed when the available evidence is already revealing enough, i.e. that video of the anesthesiologist letting that kid induce himself, no pre-ox, monitor sound of desat in background, etc

 

[drmwvr]

Sometimes more context isn't necessarily needed when the available evidence is already revealing enough, i.e. that video of the anesthesiologist letting that kid induce himself, no pre-ox, monitor sound of desat in background, etc

What was the conversation between the doctor and patient before the video? Was the kid freaked out by the mask because of a prior traumatic mask induction or some other event involving doctors/hospitals? Was there developmental delay involved? What considerations did that physician take into account when he decided to induce that way? What was his experience and background?

I sure don't know and I can't imagine how you would either. I'm surprised how scientists who will tear a study apart for invalid observations, bias etc. will so willingly suspend their objectivity when a bias of theirs is challenged.

 

[AMEHigh]

Also, let’s remember that W Philly is the location of the MOVE bombing in which the local police dropped a bomb on local residents killing several people, including children. There’s a lot of history there that has caused tension rightfully so and it’s no surprise that people act they way they do when things like this happen.

 

[deleted480308]

I dunno....I feel like the police have forgotten how to incapacitate someone. Whatever happened to shooting someone in the leg? I’m not a police so it’s easy for me to Monday morning quarterback, but still....

That’s movie ridiculousness and not real life. Literally no respected training recommends shooting in the leg.

 

[vector2]

What was the conversation between the doctor and patient before the video? Was the kid freaked out by the mask because of a prior traumatic mask induction or some other event involving doctors/hospitals? Was there developmental delay involved? What considerations did that physician take into account when he decided to induce that way? What was his experience and background?

I sure don't know and I can't imagine how you would either. I'm surprised how scientists who will tear a study apart for invalid observations, bias etc. will so willingly suspend their objectivity when a bias of theirs is challenged.

Oh, you must not have seen this thread with the 2 min viral video

how many mistakes?

How many mistakes do you see during this induction? Are you outpt center guys really this lax?

forums.studentdoctor.net

It's 2 min. There's no background info. It's indefensible.

 

[Apollyon]

What you’re saying is absolutely correct but it is also absolutely justified for the police to protect themselves. I will give full disclosure that I haven’t watched the video because I just don’t have the bandwidth at this current moment. From what I know, this isn’t the same as George Floyd which was absolutely a murder.

Absolutely a homicide. Unless that now-fired officer says, "I planned on killing someone today" or, worse, "If I see George Floyd today, I'm going to kill him", it's not murder. Ask any attorney - getting a conviction for murder in that case would be quite difficult.

 

[Candidate2017]

I dunno....I feel like the police have forgotten how to incapacitate someone. Whatever happened to shooting someone in the leg? I’m not a police so it’s easy for me to Monday morning quarterback, but still....

Because it's difficult to shoot someone in the leg with a pistol and missing means the bullet can kill an innocent, it's extremely difficult to shoot a moving person in the leg, there are major arteries in the leg that will exsanguinate someone quickly, legs don't have enough mass to stop a bullet from taking out an innocent person, and shooting someone's leg doesn't usually make them stop. There are plenty of cases of people killing police officers even after being hit with 10-20 shots. Look at 50 Cent or even one of the popes. They ate 7-10 bullets, unfazed.

Anyway, free Nikes and stuff.

 

[emergentmd]

I would hope most on here are atleast somewhat intelligent and rational but after reading some of these response have shown me there are some real idiots in the medical field.

The white guy waving the knife at the cop should have been shot until he is laying on the ground. It takes a split second for the guy to lunge and stab the cop in the neck = dead cop.

The black guy waving a gun at the police and continues to come at the police should have been shot until he is on the ground. Shoot at the legs? What a really dumb answer. In the heat of the moment high on adrenaline, with limited bullets in the chamber, and you expect a cop to hit him in his legs without having collateral damage? Even if the cop was a sharp shooter, hitting someone in the leg DOES NOT stop them from running at you. You have a limited number of shot, use it all until the guy is on the ground, period. A life of a cop>>>>>1000x these mentally ill or felons. They put their lives on the line to protect us, they should do everything in their powers to go home to their family and continue to protect us.

These rioters are just plain thugs. They don't care about social justice, BLM. This is their excuse to do what is in their DNA. They just want to riot and vandalize. These are the same thugs that have a long rap sheet but can use these police shootings as a cover to steal/loot without reprocussions.

Bottom line is society has turned a difficult job that was looked up to into an impossible job that is looked down on. I am quite sure that all of these rioters and shoot in the leg defenders would never be a cop.

 

[pgg]

Police are not trained to do this - nor should they be. Cue @pgg for a more eloquently worded explanation of why than I can provide.

Others have hit the high points already.

• Legs are small targets. Pistols are difficult to shoot well. People who don't shoot them can be fooled by Hollywood into thinking impossible things are possible, and hard things are easy. The great majority of police officers only fire their weapons annually to qualify. Few of them enjoy shooting recreationally. As an exercise to the reader, I invite everyone to visit a public shooting range and observe an average person shooting a pistol. That person is likely to be terrible at it ... and yet that person will still be better than the average police officer who doesn't voluntarily spend time at a range.
  
  
• It is unreasonable to expect police to be expert marksmen. Shooting people isn't (and shouldn't be!) a core competency for them the way it is for soldiers. One can't bemoan the militarized state of our police and simultaneously wish they would spend more time training to shoot people, to the detriment of all the other training they get, or should get, to be peace officers who serve and protect.
  
  
• Discharging a firearm toward someone should always be understood to be the use of lethal force. A stray shot may be instantly lethal to the intended target or another person. A good shot to a limb can cause death or severe permanent injury/disability.
  
  
• Good cop problem: We don't want the use of a firearm to ever be considered less than lethal force, because that will inevitably result in lowering the officer's decision threshold in favor of using a firearm. Consider this reasonable thought process: "This person isn't enough of an immediate threat to justify lethal force. My Taser is unreliable. I have to get close and accept some risk to use my baton. If I aim for a leg with my gun I'm not using lethal force. Shooting him in the leg is the best answer." More legs will be shot at.
  
  
• Bad cop problem: If "shoot the leg" somehow became an acceptable less-lethal option for police, the bad apples would deliberately shoot people in the chest in situations that required/justified less-lethal response. "Oops, I missed the leg. He was moving fast. It's a regrettable outcome." An authorized action that turns out badly is different than an unauthorized action that turns out badly. More chests will be shot at.

 

[Urzuz]

There are plenty of reasons to riot in regards to the treatment of minorities by law enforcement. This just doesn't happen to be a very good example since there was real harm the victim could have done.

Unfortunately many people will use the riots following this "justified" shooting (if you believe in such a thing, hence why I put it in quotes) to delegitimize the entire idea of holding police officers accountable for their behavior towards minorities.

 

[doctalaughs]

I would recommend to not watch the video. It unfortunately showed up on my twitter feed before I knew what it was. Overall though yes the police should be able to protect themselves but why are police able to do that in other countries without killing people at such a high rate? And why are police able to protect themselves better without killing as many non-mentally ill and white women for example.

Is it possible that people in other countries are not so stupid to think that coming at the police with a lethal weapon somehow will NOT result in their justifiable death (and zero support from society at large)?

 

[AMEHigh]

Is it possible that people in other countries are not so stupid to think that coming at the police with a lethal weapon somehow will NOT result in their justifiable death (and zero support from society at large)?

Not all police in other countries carry guns. And yes there are still people with knives and other weapons in other countries as well. So no I don't think the expectation in other countries is that the police just kill citizens and ask questions later. I've lived in other countries and this is my anecdotal experience and have had people from those countries I've lived in wondering why the police in america are so "trigger happy". Look at Tamir Rice and John Crawford...they didn't have lethal weapons, weren't threatening anyone, didn't have a chance to respond to police, yet the police made assumptions and they were killed. Nor do I think that Mr. Wallace or anyone else with a mental illness is stupid and deserves to be shot to death.

The family called for an ambulance due to his history of mental illness. It only takes common sense to know that rolling up yelling with guns drawn isn't a great tactic to de-escalate a situation, especially if it is someone who is mentally ill or has a disease such as substance abuse. Why couldn't the police stay in their cars? Why couldn't another tactic have been used? Why couldn't someone other than the police respond?

Really all the oppressive nature of the police in this country needs to change for everyone and I really don't understand how people are ok in general with how police do their jobs. The system needs to be overhauled for everyone.

 

[Twiggidy]

Wow. You guys are really running wild with my “shoot the leg comment” I admit I’m a big fan of Det Murtaugh and his policing tactics more than Riggs.

Seriously, I was more a spitballing suggestion then me saying there should be a House measure that police should shoot legs. Anyway, mental illness or not, the guy approaching the police with a knife was going to get killed. I can speculate why a white guy with a knife has better chance of survival but again, I currently don’t have the bandwidth.

Peacefully protesting would be just fine but looting a Walmart does nothing and quite honestly makes it seem like they were waiting for someone to get killed so they could get free stuffs. That won’t fix anything

I’m also not splitting hairs over murder vs homicide. I’m not a lawyer and therefore don’t care. In my book it was a murder (which is why I’d make a horrible juror)