Amount of time a typical post-fellowship DR can spend doing procedures?

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

partypantss

Full Member
7+ Year Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2014
Messages
783
Reaction score
633
I've looked all around the internet for this and can't seem to find good answers. I know it's widely variable but some ballpark ideas/ real-world examples would be helpful for whatever subspecialties you know about. Can a neuro radiologist spent 1/4th of their time doing procedures? What's the most someone wanting to do procedures can realistically do as a DR without going the fullblown IR route (and beyond mammo)

Appreciate any info/ insight!

Members don't see this ad.
 
From everything I read radiology PP groups are starting to get consolodated by larger groups like anesthesia and EM have in the past. Currently they can do some procedures but I bet in the future IR will do basically all the procedures except at tiny practices in the middle of nowhere. If you absolutely want to do procedures radiology might not be to your liking.
 
From everything I read radiology PP groups are starting to get consolodated by larger groups like anesthesia and EM have in the past. Currently they can do some procedures but I bet in the future IR will do basically all the procedures except at tiny practices in the middle of nowhere. If you absolutely want to do procedures radiology might not be to your liking.
Thanks for the info. See if this is true then it's kind of frustrating when I always see people saying "DRs can do plenty of procedures! It's a misconception that they sit in a dark room all day!" If the future is looking this way then people need to stop saying that since it's sort of misleading.

I'm just worried that if I NEVER am out doing any sort of procedure with a patient I won't really feel like a Dr. Hard to say if this is a silly notion that will go away with time or not though. I love the analytical, cerebral part of DR but doing something with my hands every now and then to a human being would be nice as well.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
I am currently a trainee at a big name academic place.

MSK - 1 to 3 procedures daily at each site. Mostly fluoro/US joint injections. Occasionally an ablation.
Neuro - 1 to 3 procedures daily at each site. LPs, steroid injections (epidural, facet, etc), bone biopsy.
Peds - 3 to 7 fluoros daily. Mostly swallow studies. Often upper GIs or enemas. Rare intuss reduction or US biopsy.
Breast - All day every day. US, stereotactic, and MR guided biopsies. They have a trainee and attending assigned to nothing but procedures.
Chest - 1 to 3 procedures daily at each site. Exclusively lung biopsies.
Ultrasound - 3 to 6 procedures daily (funneled into one site). Biopsies of thyroids, lymph nodes, transplants, etc.
Abdomen - Just fluoro (swallows and enemas). Ultrasound and IR do the rest (at my institution). At some institutions the body folks to abscess drains, US biopsies, and even kidney/liver ablations.
IR - speaks for itself

As you already mentioned, the volume varies incredibly based upon a number of factors.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
I am currently a trainee at a big name academic place.

MSK - 1 to 3 procedures daily at each site. Mostly fluoro/US joint injections. Occasionally an ablation.
Neuro - 1 to 3 procedures daily at each site. LPs, steroid injections (epidural, facet, etc), bone biopsy.
Peds - 3 to 7 fluoros daily. Mostly swallow studies. Often upper GIs or enemas. Rare intuss reduction or US biopsy.
Breast - All day every day. US, stereotactic, and MR guided biopsies. They have a trainee and attending assigned to nothing but procedures.
Chest - 1 to 3 procedures daily at each site. Exclusively lung biopsies.
Ultrasound - 3 to 6 procedures daily (funneled into one site). Biopsies of thyroids, lymph nodes, transplants, etc.
Abdomen - Just fluoro (swallows and enemas). Ultrasound and IR do the rest (at my institution). At some institutions the body folks to abscess drains, US biopsies, and even kidney/liver ablations.
IR - speaks for itself

As you already mentioned, the volume varies incredibly based upon a number of factors.
Thank you this is very helpful. Just so I make sure I understand correctly, are you saying this is what a typical attending at your institution is doing?
 
This is the total number of procedures performed at each site, stratified by section. All procedures go through one attending on a given day. The attending supervises a trainee. Usually there are 1 to 3 trainees sharing cases, with the senior getting priority. The extent to which the attending gets his/her hands dirty varies with trainee experience, procedure complexity, and generally decreases as the year goes on.
 
This is the total number of procedures performed at each site, stratified by section. All procedures go through one attending on a given day. The attending supervises a trainee. Usually there are 1 to 3 trainees sharing cases, with the senior getting priority. The extent to which the attending gets his/her hands dirty varies with trainee experience, procedure complexity, and generally decreases as the year goes on.
I see that makes sense, thank you! I know I'm asking questions that are probably annoying but just one more followup; do you have any idea how that compares to what DRs in PP do? Are there jobs that typically have them do similar amounts? Or is this really only the case for academics?
 
No such thing as annoying questions! That's what this forum is for. : )

I don't have personal experience with PP (obviously). I know of former residents that went to smallish groups and do a handful of procedures daily (mix of all of the above). As previously mentioned, in the subspecialized megagroups I think it's more common to do exclusively DR. Then there are all of the groups in between. Unfortunately I don't know how prevalent each type of group is.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
I see that makes sense, thank you! I know I'm asking questions that are probably annoying but just one more followup; do you have any idea how that compares to what DRs in PP do? Are there jobs that typically have them do similar amounts? Or is this really only the case for academics?
Rather than academic vs private practice, think of those numbers as the total number of procedures that need to be done per 1000 bed hospital for like 100 diagnostic radiologists other than dedicated IRs. For a private practice, it'll be some permutation of that based on the size of practice (eg, 4-50 radiologists, covering 1-25 small to medium hospitals and outpatient imaging centers).
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Rather than academic vs private practice, think of those numbers as the total number of procedures that need to be done per 1000 bed hospital for like 100 diagnostic radiologists other than dedicated IRs. For a private practice, it'll be some permutation of that based on the size of practice (eg, 4-50 radiologists, covering 1-25 small to medium hospitals and outpatient imaging centers).
I see, that makes sense.
 
The number of procedures you do will vary based on many factors. In my experence neurorads typically only do LPs. However if you are good at procedures and find a group that needs someone to pick up the slack with paras, thoras, biopsies, and drainages I suppose you could fill that role.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
The number of procedures you do will vary based on many factors. In my experence neurorads typically only do LPs. However if you are good at procedures and find a group that needs someone to pick up the slack with paras, thoras, biopsies, and drainages I suppose you could fill that role.
Thank you for the info. I can't say how procedure-oriented I'll ultimately be 5-6 years down the road, but I know at least right now when deciding on specialty, I definitely want it to be an option. Sounds like it is.
 
Image-guided procedures sound like a lot of fun... until you realize that they're poorly reimbursed for the time expended. I say this as someone who enjoys procedures. In most groups -- academic or PP - people are not fighting for procedures... they're trying to divide the duty up in an equitable way. The more you want to do, the more others will let you do. So -- yes -- if you're in a group that does procedures, don't sweat, you probably can have all the procedures you want.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Image-guided procedures sound like a lot of fun... until you realize that they're poorly reimbursed for the time expended. I say this as someone who enjoys procedures. In most groups -- academic or PP - people are not fighting for procedures... they're trying to divide the duty up in an equitable way. The more you want to do, the more others will let you do. So -- yes -- if you're in a group that does procedures, don't sweat, you probably can have all the procedures you want.

First, I agree 100% with this post. I have been working in general PP x 1.5yrs now in a group of 11. I shared a similar enthusiasm for procedures years ago. I participate in the procedural rotation by choice. We fill the gaps with diagnostic work. I can add a few facets to this.

1) People have a difficult time comparing apples to oranges (IR/DR) and your colleagues may not acknowlege the value provided in doing the procedural work. Hence, if you spend a substantial part of the day not reading cases while managing the inefficiencies inherent to patient care, (consent, waiting on labs, chasing a moving lung nodule, sticking multiple levels of an 87 year old spine, entering orders, writing notes, tracking down outside imaging, discussing cases with ordering providers, waiting for an RN, rad tech, pathologist, walking all over the dept instead of staying in a chair), some colleagues may resent that.

2) This is an undesirable rotation in my group. From my experience, it is most likely due to the frustrations of patient care, delays, frequent add-on cases late in the day, overbooking, unpredictable stop time and a frequently longer day. We have had recruits and partners opt out of procedure duty. Give some thought to how much of this you want in your life (a day a week is plenty for me). If not, you may get assigned a lot more than you'd like. Would expect more pay or vac if I'm consistently working longer than others.

3) Just because you have fellowship experience in anything (DR or IR) does not mean your future job will necessarily make any use of it. Be clear in your interview how much you'll be doing of anything that interests you. That is not necessarily bad, was just kind of unexpected for me. I figured the schedulers would route me things I was really good at. Nope. Scheduling office is in another state and we have multiple sites. The few cases of interest to me that come along go to some other guy. I have adapted to the needs of the practice and take whatever comes in the door.

4) Avg Volume for us is 4 CT/MR cases, 4 US drainages, and 2 LP's/joints. Others done by the IR guys.
 
Top