age at end of medical school

This is not true. I went through a 6 year program but applied out as well to other med schools and was accepted. I applied at the start of my second year (summer between 1st and 2nd year technically) and had enough EC's. It was just about time management, you can find the time to work in a lab, take classes, and volunteer. Is it easy? No. Possible, absolutely.
Which is basically what I said, hence the "except it probably won't [save you two years]."

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Wow, you must be a baller at school and life. (not trying to be sarcastic) I personally only know of two people that got into med school after 3 years of college. I've never met anybody (and you're the first person that I've HEARD of) that did it after 2 years in college!

This is not true. I went through a 6 year program but applied out as well to other med schools and was accepted. I applied at the start of my second year (summer between 1st and 2nd year technically) and had enough EC's. It was just about time management, you can find the time to work in a lab, take classes, and volunteer. Is it easy? No. Possible, absolutely.
 
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Your achievement is much more understandable. I didn't realize that you got into the normal BS/MD 6 year pathway. I had the impression that you went to a non-combined degree college and just applied med schools your second year of college while taking the many pre-med classes and MCAT in your first year of college.

I didn't apply to the BS/MD programs because my ACT score wasn't competitive for the programs. Also, I didn't have a tutor or whatever Princeton Review class to get a higher score. In short, little motivation to get a 33 or 34 ACT to become a competitive applicant.

It use to be much more common but the number of 6 year programs is fairly small now with the only 2 I Know of being UMKC and NEOUCOM (where I went). Finishing school in 2 years isn't that bad then because you go year round and are scheduled preferentially so you can finish in time. As for applying out to get into other medical schools it requires taking the MCAT after 1 year and doing well and trying to cram in a whole lot of EC's quickly.
 
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Teehee!

My favorite part of that movie is watching a much younger Alexander Skarsgard (Eric Northman on True Blood) as Meekus in the opening. HA!

Also, your avatar is probably the hottest picture of Camilla Belle I've ever seen, but I wish she thinned her eyebrows just a little more. They're SO dark.
 
The accelerated BS/MD type programs are actually falling out of favor in the US these days, because the graduates are perceived as less well rounded (you don't have the whole 4 years of college to explore other things before you dive into a med school curriculum), and because accepting someone to med school out of high school doesn't allow for seeing who actually distinguishes themselves in college and through ECs, meaning you don't get the proven superstars. For much the same reason, med schools aren't impressed with folks who rush through college faster and eliminate their ability to rack up impressive ECs. The dude who does 4 years of college, does something impressive and non-medical for a few years (job, military, research, mountain climbing) and then applies after a postbac tends to have a much much easier time with admissions than the dude who rushes through 2-3 years of college with solid grades but only a handful of volunteer hours in terms of ECs.

You have to realize that grades, MCAT and a degree are only PART of what you need to be competitive for med school. The ECs and having something cool and interesting to talk about in interviews and your essays/PS are at least as important. So trying to squeeze these in as an afterthought while you rush through college as fast as you can really just cuts yourself off at the knees. You won't get looked at by as good a grouping of schools. You will be a harder sell at the places that do look at you. You won't have the maturity and experiences of someone who spent more years of their life trying other things and living outside of the library.

But most importantly, you won't have had a good, well rounded college experience. College, for many, can be the best 4 years of your life, if you do it right. You have no responsibility, your schedule is your own, there are social opportunities on a near daily basis, and the academic work isn't all that hard if you aren't a masochist about your schedule. Only a fool would rush through this 4 years. (Sure there are folks with financial issues, but even then I would then do college quick and get a real job to bolster experiences, not rush into med school). The light at the end of the tunnel for a premed is a train. You don't want to rush through the tunnel faster -- the train that is med school will get to you soon enough.

You have to also realize that med school is not the end of the road in terms of learning. You will finish med school, and then launch into residency, which is 3-7 years of intense, long-houred training. You will still have tests (boards, in-service exams), you will still be "graded" ("evaluated", but it's the same idea). You will draw a salary, but considering the hours you work and the loans you will have accumulated, you won't really be excited about it. And then you will in many fields do 1-2 years of fellowship, before you will be an attending-level physician. So the question isn't really how old will you be after med school, but how old will you be after residency, and actually working as a full-fledged attending-level doctor. So basically add 5-6 years to whatever numbers were mentioned above. You will be in your thirties. Saving a year in college so you will finish at 31 instead of 32 is pretty meaningless in terms of life, but meaningful in terms of depriving yourself of being competitive and well rounded for med school.

Sorry for the ramble. Speaking as a nontrad who had another career before medicine (and who sure wouldn't change a thing in my longer than typical path), I really feel strongly that medicine is a better liked and appreciated career for those folks who don't rush into it. And that college is something you are going to look fondly back on if you do it right, or spend your life kicking yourself about if you rush through it. Stop looking at it as a means to an end and look at it as an opportunity to broaden your horizons and grow as a person. Med school will still be there and you will be ten times more competitive if you don't squander college in some foolish rush to get to a finish line that doesn't exist.
 
Age at the end of med school = Old. Very old. With no money :(
 
I know this question is out of place, but its not worth starting a new thread. Can one be both a physician and surgeon at the same time?
 
I know this question is out of place, but its not worth starting a new thread. Can one be both a physician and surgeon at the same time?

Physicians are a kind of surgeon, so yes. During third and fourth year of medical school you will go through clerkships in the hospital for different specialties: internal medicine, general surgery, pediatrics, family practice, ob/gyn, emergency medicine, neurology, anesthesiology and psychiatry and you will have the opportunity to take additional clerkships if you want in other surgical specialties like urology, orthopedics and ophthalmology, or some medical subspecialties that interest you (I think). During that time you'll hopefully figure out what specialty you want to go into.

Podiatrists (DPMs) and dentists/oral surgeons (DDS or DMD) do not go to MD or DO school but also perform surgery.

If you mean if you can both see a lot of patients in your office as well as perform procedures, there are also specialties that do a lot of this. Ob/Gyn is the first one that comes to mind, but there are others. There was a thread about this on Pre-Allo a few months ago.

Someone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on any of this. :)
 
I know this question is out of place, but its not worth starting a new thread. Can one be both a physician and surgeon at the same time?

Technically the term "physician" is now the equivalent of "doctor" and so all surgeons with an MD or DO are physicians (but not vice versa). At one time physician and surgeon were different concepts, which is why some med schools are still called XYZ college of physicians and surgeons, etc. If your question is really can someone be both an internist and a surgeon, I would suggest that it's impractical and unrealistic. The amount of knowledge involved in practicing in a particular field is vast, and the only way to have a modicum of expertise is to specialize. Plus you would have to do two residencies. And further most of the people who like IM won't like surgery and vice versa -- they are very different fields which attract very different personalities.
 
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If you mean if you can both see a lot of patients in your office as well as perform procedures, there are also specialties that do a lot of this.

All surgeons have clinic/office hours and see patients outside of the OR. Lots of pre-op evaluations and post-op follow-up check-ups and visits. However this is hugely different than what internists do.
 
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When you are in high school you have all these ideas that everything has to be done by the time you are 25 since age 30 is super old when you are 18. For me I live a lot before going to medical school and didn't get my bachelor's in 4 yrs like most folks since I was married and worked full time.

Here is my timeline:

Undergrad: age 18-25
One year post bacc: age 29
second post bacc year: age 32
Medical school: age 33-37
Residency: age 37-40

Don't stress about how old you will be. Just take it one step at a time. It will happen when it needs to.


This is almost exactly my timeline, if all pans out well this year. I might or might not do a longer residency/fellowship. So, I'll be ~40-42 when I'm done.

I think there is something to be said for living life a little before med school, although, if I were 22 again I could see myself going for a more demanding profession like neuro surg or Ortho, but at my age I don't really care to go through that kind of hell.
 
Age at the end of med school = Old. Very old. With no money :(


I totally agree with you!!! I think that it is a problem, especially since people in America are graduating from school much later in their lives. People don't get married at 21 anymore, now it's probably around 30 because people take much longer to finish their education and establish themselves financially. And because of this, couples are having kids much later in their lives; which can lead to more complications and less healthy babies. Plus you need a lot of energy and "youth" to raise kids, I hear that it's one hell of a job to be a parent o_O

-I plan on going to dental school XD im a junior in undergrad now.
 
I totally agree with you!!! I think that it is a problem, especially since people in America are graduating from school much later in their lives. People don't get married at 21 anymore, now it's probably around 30 because people take much longer to finish their education and establish themselves financially. And because of this, couples are having kids much later in their lives; which can lead to more complications and less healthy babies. Plus you need a lot of energy and "youth" to raise kids, I hear that it's one hell of a job to be a parent o_O

-I plan on going to dental school XD im a junior in undergrad now.

Oh really? Life gets harder and there's more competition than 20 years ago? Damn, shoudla though about that before going.
 
Oh really? Life gets harder and there's more competition than 20 years ago? Damn, shoudla though about that before going.

lol that's not what I meant, I'm just pointing out the fact that since people are finishing their education later in life, they are having kids at an older age. And more and more people aren't even having kids cause of the complications that arise due to their older age. I was just pointing out a problem that I thought would be relevant for people to keep in mind.

And why do I get a sense of hostility and sarcasm? I was just trying to contribute to this thread. I would think that anyone with a background in sociology would appreciate the point I'm making here.
 
lol that's not what I meant, I'm just pointing out the fact that since people are finishing their education later in life, they are having kids at an older age. And more and more people aren't even having kids cause of the complications that arise due to their older age. I was just pointing out a problem that I thought would be relevant for people to keep in mind.

And why do I get a sense of hostility and sarcasm? I was just trying to contribute to this thread. I would think that anyone with a background in sociology would appreciate the point I'm making here.

Actually, in the US, the women who would be finishing school later in life (PhD's, MD's, etc.) have a fertility rate of about 1. The people who aren't finishing school later in life (just HS diploma, HS dropout, etc.) have the majority of children here.
 
I know this question is out of place, but its not worth starting a new thread. Can one be both a physician and surgeon at the same time?

All surgeon's are physicians. You go to medical school then decide what type of doctor you want to be during that time. Once you decide what type of physician appeals to you: OB/GYN, general surgeon, orthopedic surgeon, family practice, psychiatry, pediatrician, ER, Internal medicine, etc. you apply to that specific residency and go through the training to be that type of doctor.
 
...

1) You finish residency and become making an attending much earlier-Having finished college, med school, and a 5 year residency by age 28 is a huge plus. Many of my colleagues are in their mid 30s meaning i will be out 7-10 years before them allowing me to practice longer and get paid an attendings salary and not at a student/resident salary....

You get your payday a little earlier, but you sacrifice a ton to get it. The reason the BS-MD programs have fallen out of favor is simple -- (1) the folks are entering a profession that prizes maturity, but doing so at a younger age, which is disadvantageous. (2) Accepting someone out of high school into a med school program doesn't allow a med school to see who actually is a superstar, rather than simply a run of the mill pre-med wannabe. So the matriculants are often far less impressive than the folks who had to prove themselves throughout college. (3) The programs that offer the combined accelerated degrees are often not among the upper echelon of med schools. The better schools don't have to use gimmicks to fill their ranks. (4) You end up squandering your college experience. The whole point of the US system being different from the European version (by design) is that you have the opportunity to become well rounded in a 4 year liberal arts education before you focus in on medicine. There is a notion in this country that some of the best physicians are not the ones who never strayed from premed and med school courses, but in fact the ones who broadened their horizons. As a result, the better programs now take a ton of non-sci types to create their ideal class. (5) A lot of the stuff folks do to make themselves appealing to med schools while in college, including volunteering, shadowing, assists in folks actually making sure they want to be a physician. Medicine isn't for everyone, and it's really really important that you know if it's for you before you throw yourself into the long tunnel of sorrow that is med school and residency. If you don't like it, you will be miserable, but will have incurred a lot of debt, making the switch difficult. So med schools "force" you to see if you like it by getting clinical exposure as a premed college student. The accelerated path folks don't do this, and potentially screw themselves out of an opportunity to avoid a huge mistake. (6) Many college premeds do research, which can be a boon to residency applications and is useful in getting into research while in med school. Not having the need to do this to get into med school probably translates to a drop off in competitiveness of many of the accelerated path folks. And so on. The biggest issue is that college is the time when folks are supposed to broaden their horizons, try new things, and gain lifechanging experiences, all while being relatively freed from responsibilities. College can be the best time in your life. No real point trying to rush through it to the train at the end of the tunnel that is med school. Our system basically acknowledges that 16-17 year olds don't need to know what they want to do with their lives, and really should explore options for a while before pulling the trigger. This really isn't a race, and the only finish line is death. So you become an attending at 30 instead of 32. BFD. Means you probably will get your coronary two years earlier. Really not worth the downside IMHO, and in the opinion of most med schools these days (which is why fewer and fewer places offer these accelerated paths each year).
 
The average starting at age at my medical school was 27 yrs old. Many people had doen things between undergrad and medical school like the Peace Corps (moi).
 
...You may believe a BS/MD program is squandering your college experience but I have plenty of friends who actually went through the program who would say differently....

Well, the folks who "went through the program" are poorly situated to know what they squandered. The folks I know who did BS-MD type programs, although many are good doctors, do not carry with them the same kind of experiences that the typical college grad does, and, whether they realize it or not, are worse off for it. They don't look back fondly on their college experience, didn't have that "coming of age" and growth experience many others did, and honestly many really don't have the same level of out-of-medicine balance and exposure that others do.

The European system where you go straight out of high school works fine for them -- they fix the glitches by throwing people out who don't cut it (attrition is very high in many foreign med schools). In the US, we instead opted for a system where folks broadened their horizons in college, gained maturity and experience, and proved themselves as superstars first, before acceptance. As a result, high attrition is not necessary. We chose this system over the European one, which predated ours, and I don't think many feel it was the wrong choice.

I agree that older people are not necessarily more mature, but statistically your odds of being more mature increase with each year you are on the planet. Most folks simply are wiser and make better decisions at 20 than 16, and our system embraces this. Which is why the combined BS-MD programs are falling out of favor, and there will continue to be fewer and fewer such paths until they become nonexistent in a decade.

As for becoming an attending earlier to make money earlier, I would again suggest that you give up a lot more than you get -- money received decades from now doesn't have much value in a net present value analysis, so whether you earn money at 28 or 30 or whatever is pretty meaningless, but investment in your personal growth in college in the near term is immeasurable. And even more important is having that extra few years to realize that maybe medicine isn't really for you -- allowing you to save time, debt, misery, etc. Bear in mind that earning a nice living is and always should be a very secondary goal -- the primary goal has to be to find something you enjoy doing, because you are going to be spending the bulk of your life doing it. And you only make good decisions by taking the time to think things through, to try other things, to broaden your focus. Folks who cut off the time to do this by funneling themselves into medicine earlier give up a lot of opportunities to figure out what they REALLY want to do in life. So they become doctors earlier, but that can really blow if you would have had a more enjoyable life being eg an urban planner. And how would you really know unless you spent time taking diverse classes and socializing with diverse people for a good deal of time.

The most important thing to remember is that 99.9999% of what you think you know about your life, yourself, what you want in a career, what you want in life, relationships, etc when you are IN HIGH SCHOOL is going to be wrong. Folks "mature" over time -- they make better decisions, prioritize differently (and usually better), and they know themselves better. So the person making a career decision at 20 does phenomenally better than the person who makes career decisions at 16. You may think you know what you are doing at 16, but you are an idiot -- we all were at 16. That you might end up in the same career if you chose later is irrelevant -- you would have made the 16 year old decision without all the facts, making it a poorly thought out and poorly reasoned decision. The nontrads tend to be best thought out -- they tried and explored other things first, and really spent the time coming to the decision, and as a result tend to be happier in medicine than most, on average. The trads are a mixed bag, with some having spent more time exploring other options than others. A lot of the whining and complaining you see in medicine tends to come from folks who jumped in with their eyes closed, and were upset when the reality didn't match up with their imagined career.

Medicine is truly not for everyone. So it behooves you (OP) to explore a lot of options before pulling the trigger. The is ESPECIALLY SO if your focus is to get out early and start practicing already, because this is a very very long path full of lifelong learning and tests, and if you are really focused on how quickly you can be done and earning, this is probably not the right career path for you, based on my experience. Physician incomes have taken a hit over the past decade, hours have gone up and we are almost guaranteed to continue that trend. In the decade it's going to take before anyone in high school becomes an attending level physician, it's very conceivable that the financial rewards will not be particularly impressive for physicians as compared to many other professional fields. So I would put financial reasons low on your list of reasons to become a doctor. You may rush through and find that you are earning a crummy salary as a physician at 28 rather than 30, when in either case you probably will watch your non-physician high school classmates earning tons of money doing careers which require far less education or hours. That's pretty common now, and likely to be more common in a decade as physicians are viewed by the government as unreasonably expensive. But I digress.
 
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great info :)

but does age matter? as long as you feel young in the inside you will look young in the outside :D (okay not really but still if you're going to pursue your dream entering the medical field you won't worry about age or years)

all-in-all work hard and study hard and be a great doc :thumbup:
 
I tend to agree with Law2doc - I don't see why anyone would want to replace cherished young adulthood with a high-stress adult job and more responsibilities. Med students/doctors seem to make a big deal about a couple years age difference, especially if they find out that a more senior resident is a year or two older than them. I don't really get it. I think it is part of the whole mentality of super type-A people who feel they win something by being younger and more progressed in the medicine hierarchy. Also I think its a naturally human tendency to try to justify the route you've taken in life, so few people are going wish they'd done differently.

One sort of legitimate reason to try to finish training early at least for women is so that child-bearing does not occur during the most intense yrs. Maybe this is becoming less of an issue as more women go into medicine and residencies learn how to accommodate them (as they should).

Speaking of BA-MD, the top four students in my high school went to med school. Two went the traditional route (including myself), the other two went BA-MD. Of the BA-MD, one dropped out completely and now works in healthcare consulting, the other had a sort of crisis during M3, took time off for a couple yrs to figure out if she wanted to be a photographer, then went back and is now the same age or older than she would have been if she had applied after college. These two were super gung-ho about med school during high school, volunteering and such, whereas I had no interest, thought I would get a phd or something, but came to it later and probably with less drama.
 
I think acherona really hit something on the head while also substantiating L2Ds arguments. Maturity and understanding of your own career goals play an important role in eventually enjoying your career choice. Kids that go straight from high school may have not much experience and true understanding what they want in life. Their own goals somewhat tainted by all the BS medical shows on tv these days and finding out the reality tends to be much less glamorous. Those that go college may realize that their own high school experience with school work is different from med schools consider "studying". Maybe they find out that they hate studying after all. I find myself thinking back to college and realizing how much fun I had while I sit here studying platelet/coagulation disorders for hours on end ON TOP of actual lectures. It truly sucks and to think some people rush through college fun for this? They must be mad. No one truly realizes what they missed until they're confronted with something far worse. lol.
 
I think the person said that they were 16 when they started college.

Some people start college at 16 or 17 either because they do dual enrollment where the last year is done at a college doing college credits for both or due to skipping grades or coming from another country where school started at age 3 and not 5 like India.

I knew a few grads who started college at 16.
Read the post I was quoting.
 
You may believe a BS/MD program is squandering your college experience but I have plenty of friends who actually went through the program who would say differently.
How do they know?

Many of fellow graduates are in competitive specialties at top tier institutions. As for myself, all I could manage was Rad Onc at a Top 20 institution.
*pat on back*
 
So yes, while I might have been stressed a little more early on than my traditional peers, I think it was probably made up by the lack of stress from not having to go through the getting into med school process

The stress I was talking about is the stress of an adult life and job which you would have to deal with at an earlier age. You're basically replacing 2-4 yrs of college or after-college when you are 20-24, probably have few personal or financial responsibilities, have an active social life, with yrs of being an attending physican in effect forced to "grow up" sooner. I think most people who decide to go to med school are going to be stressed about their grades no matter where they are. At my med school there were a lot younger students and we had a true pass-fail system but they still gunned for As anyway because it had been drilled into them for so many yrs. I have a hard time believing the BA-MD students are more "relaxed", if anything I'd think the opposite. They probably start stressing early about doing research and getting into a residency and such (you see the posts frequently on SDN) because they lack perspective about these things.
 
Hopefully, if all goes well...

BS: 3 years (I want summers!)
Med: 4 years
Residency: 5 years

18+12=30. O geeze.
 
I have classmates that matriculated in their 30s and 40s, so I wouldn't worry about graduating at 30...
 
I am not worried at all but I just love to here from d/f peopel d/f kind of information that is all .Thoughter from SdN
 
I'll be 24.

Left high school at 16, went to college full-time.
Already 1 year ahead in college, applying at 19
 
Nice argument for both sides above by L2D and wagy27.

I'll throw in my own two cents. Right now, as a 23 year old intern, I am fairly certain I would not have picked medicine as a career had I gone through four years of university. There are many reasons, but suffice it to say that it is extremely different than popular perception (as most housestaff will tell you).

Still, I wonder if in the long run this will be better for me. I think if everything pans out as planned I will have made enough of an impact on other people's lives to look back and have no regrets.
 
Now, I don't know why people accept taking 4yrs to get a BS. You can start knocking out college credits in you junior year of highschool, CLEP everything that can be CLEP'ed, and take a full class load during the summer instead of going home. That will save you 2 years.

Or you could enjoy the best years of your life and stay in college for 4 years. I could have graduated in 3.5, possibly even 3 years, but stayed around because you can never have those years back. Jesus people, haven't you ever seen Animal House?

I will be 25 when I finish med school next spring. 3-5 more for residency. I'll probably start practicing around 30. Whats the use of ruining the best time of your life just so you can start practicing medicine at 28?


Also, keep in mind that these days there are a large number of non-traditional med students (those who do not go to med school directly after graduating college). Be it a master degree, a couple years working, or even transitioning from a completely different profession. I don't have the numbers to back it up, but I would guess the national average of people graduating from medical school (no including residency) is at least 28.

One more thing, I know a kid who applied to medical school at age 17 (was on pace to graduate with a BS at 18) and did not get accepted to a single medical school, even tho his MCAT was 37 which is very high for those who don't know. He did not get accepted simply because a 17 year old is not emotionally ready for medical school. Doogie Howser was a fictional story.

Just some things to keep in mind....
 
I will be 22 at med school commencement, and ~26 at the end of residency.
 
I thought I was young once I would apply for medical school. I'll be 20 when applying, so 24 at commencement. Can't believe you're likely to graduate from med school when 22, Desimaster, but good for you. The average age of matriculants is 24 I believe.
 
Thanks :) You are definitely young! Personally, I am debating taking some time off and travelling to see if my mind is actually in the right place. We will see though...
 
I will be 22 at med school commencement, and ~26 at the end of residency.

Definitely take your time, speaking from experience if you have the resources and energy take advantage of your youth and travel a bit before residency
 
I will be 22 at med school commencement, and ~26 at the end of residency.

Not to rain on anyone's parade, but unless you are already admitted (I don't see any signs in your profile), you are making a pretty big assumption that you will be admitted to medical school at 18. It has happened but it is definitely not the norm.

Not to mention I'm curious when between getting your drivers license and being able to vote you intend to earn the Bachelors that is expected???
 
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