Advice for an undergraduate considering DVM?

[OneLove1<3]

Hi everyone,

I am an undergraduate senior considering veterinarian medicine for graduate school. I always thought this would be my future career, but I changed my mind some time along the way, and recently have come back to the idea of pursuing this dream. I have a few questions for the veterinary professionals out there!

1.) My undergraduate major is not biology or animal science. It used to be biology but I switched a couple years into my undergraduate. I am still a science major however, it is just more human based. I have completed general chemistry 1&2 with lab, physics 1&2 with lab, biology 1&2 with lab, zoology with lab, as well as several science classes that are human related. I will be coming back after graduation to take my organic chemistry courses, biochemistry, and a few upper level biology courses. My question is, do you think it will lower my chances of being accepted into vet school because I am not a biology or animal science major? I still have good knowledge of science, although it is primarily human related.

2.) Are there any reasons besides the financial strain of DVM school and loans that would make you think twice about this profession? I looked through some of the posts on this forum and I saw one where many vets said they would not choose this profession again, but it was primarily because of debt to income ratio. I understand that this is a huge factor to consider, it is one reason why I contemplated going into a different field. I am still heavily considering the struggle this would place on me. But what I would like to know is are there any veterinarians on here that would not choose this profession again for other reasons that are unrelated to the debt-income ratio?

3.) I have researched the suicide rates, and this alarms me. As professionals in this field, why do you think they are so high for this profession?

Ultimately, my passion is animals. If I choose a career aside from veterinarian medicine, I will still find a way to work with animals. I would love to work as a conservation veterinarian, helping care for endangered species. I just don't know how common this is.

Thanks for reading!

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[CalliopeDVM]

Hi everyone,

I am an undergraduate senior considering veterinarian medicine for graduate school. I always thought this would be my future career, but I changed my mind some time along the way, and recently have come back to the idea of pursuing this dream. I have a few questions for the veterinary professionals out there!

1.) My undergraduate major is not biology or animal science. It used to be biology but I switched a couple years into my undergraduate. I am still a science major however, it is just more human based. I have completed general chemistry 1&2 with lab, physics 1&2 with lab, biology 1&2 with lab, zoology with lab, as well as several science classes that are human related. I will be coming back after graduation to take my organic chemistry courses, biochemistry, and a few upper level biology courses. My question is, do you think it will lower my chances of being accepted into vet school because I am not a biology or animal science major? I still have good knowledge of science, although it is primarily human related.

2.) Are there any reasons besides the financial strain of DVM school and loans that would make you think twice about this profession? I looked through some of the posts on this forum and I saw one where many vets said they would not choose this profession again, but it was primarily because of debt to income ratio. I understand that this is a huge factor to consider, it is one reason why I contemplated going into a different field. I am still heavily considering the struggle this would place on me. But what I would like to know is are there any veterinarians on here that would not choose this profession again for other reasons that are unrelated to the debt-income ratio?

3.) I have researched the suicide rates, and this alarms me. As professionals in this field, why do you think they are so high for this profession?

Ultimately, my passion is animals. If I choose a career aside from veterinarian medicine, I will still find a way to work with animals. I would love to work as a conservation veterinarian, helping care for endangered species. I just don't know how common this is.

Thanks for reading!

1) It doesn't matter what you've majored in, as long as you've got the pre-req courses (and done well enough in them). It will not lower your chances because you have a non-bio/non-animal science major.

2) Mostly, the debt-to-income ratio (in the US) is the primary issue; I know some don't handle the stress of the responsibility (and the potential seriousness of mistakes) very well, and that has led to a few vets I know leaving clinical practice for other areas (industry or academia). Literally holding the difference between life and death in your hands can be daunting (though fortunately it doesn't happen often).

3) A few options: The significance of our responsibility to our patients (see my answer above) and therefor to our clients; the fact that we are often prevented from doing what we think should be done by clients' choices - all the while facing ever-increasing expectations from clients who don't realize the cost of those expectations; frequent long hours (especially if you don't work in an urban practice); and sometimes by our own Type A, perfectionist personalities in a profession that pre-selects for driven, high achieving people. That's too many "p"s in a sentence, but I can't figure out how to re-write it to be any clearer

Then add in facing clients who think they know everything thanks to Dr. Google (not limited to this profession) and the debt to income ratio (particularly in the US).

 

[OneLove1<3]

Then add in facing clients who think they know everything thanks to Dr. Google

This is something I have noticed a lot when shadowing! I can only imagine how frustrating this is when you have dedicated so much time and money to your education.

Would you enter this profession again CalliopeDVM?

 

[CalliopeDVM]

This is something I have noticed a lot when shadowing! I can only imagine how frustrating this is when you have dedicated so much time and money to your education.

Would you enter this profession again CalliopeDVM?

Yup, but not if I faced the debt like that faced by students in US vet schools.......I wouldn't have even done it the first time if it would have cost $200,000 or so.

If you're interested, this site http://iwanttobeaveterinarian.com/ has some good information on being a vet, being a vet student, vet school costs, and loan repayment calculators -- it's a site produced by the charitable arm of the Veterinary Information Network, which is itself is not associated with any veterinary school or veterinary related company (other than itself), so it's pretty unbiased.

 

[KCgophervet]

Hi everyone,

I am an undergraduate senior considering veterinarian medicine for graduate school. I always thought this would be my future career, but I changed my mind some time along the way, and recently have come back to the idea of pursuing this dream. I have a few questions for the veterinary professionals out there!

1.) My undergraduate major is not biology or animal science. It used to be biology but I switched a couple years into my undergraduate. I am still a science major however, it is just more human based. I have completed general chemistry 1&2 with lab, physics 1&2 with lab, biology 1&2 with lab, zoology with lab, as well as several science classes that are human related. I will be coming back after graduation to take my organic chemistry courses, biochemistry, and a few upper level biology courses. My question is, do you think it will lower my chances of being accepted into vet school because I am not a biology or animal science major? I still have good knowledge of science, although it is primarily human related.

2.) Are there any reasons besides the financial strain of DVM school and loans that would make you think twice about this profession? I looked through some of the posts on this forum and I saw one where many vets said they would not choose this profession again, but it was primarily because of debt to income ratio. I understand that this is a huge factor to consider, it is one reason why I contemplated going into a different field. I am still heavily considering the struggle this would place on me. But what I would like to know is are there any veterinarians on here that would not choose this profession again for other reasons that are unrelated to the debt-income ratio?

3.) I have researched the suicide rates, and this alarms me. As professionals in this field, why do you think they are so high for this profession?

Ultimately, my passion is animals. If I choose a career aside from veterinarian medicine, I will still find a way to work with animals. I would love to work as a conservation veterinarian, helping care for endangered species. I just don't know how common this is.

Thanks for reading!

I just came here to say veterinary medicine. Not veterinarian medicine.

 

[Ashgirl]

I just came here to say veterinary medicine. Not veterinarian medicine.

You never know, what if they want to just treat veterinarians?

As for the OP, the only thing I want to add is that any major that allows you to get the pre-reqs in is fine! I have classmates with majors in Spanish, Electrical Eng, and Accounting, so they won't look down on you if you have a different major than the majority.

 

[VetHusband]

My suggestion is to remember that your DVM will be 100% worthless if you can not pass the NAVLE. Let me repeat that, your bachelor's degree and your DVM will be so much waste in the round file if you can not pass that test and you will have accumulated a lot of student debt along the way (at least if you are like most) if you fail to pass it.

Did I mention that you only get 2-5 attempts to take it in many states?

That one exam can ruin your life, be sure you think you can see the goal through because you're playing for ALL the marbles with that one.

 

[OneLove1<3]

I just came here to say veterinary medicine. Not veterinarian medicine.

Typos happen.

As for the OP, the only thing I want to add is that any major that allows you to get the pre-reqs in is fine! I have classmates with majors in Spanish, Electrical Eng, and Accounting, so they won't look down on you if you have a different major than the majority.

Thank you! I have felt a bit discouraged thinking this may hurt my chances. The fact that you are a veterinary student and you know others with various undergraduate degrees is comforting.

My suggestion is to remember that your DVM will be 100% worthless if you can not pass the NAVLE. Let me repeat that, your bachelor's degree and your DVM will be so much waste in the round file if you can not pass that test and you will have accumulated a lot of student debt along the way (at least if you are like most) if you fail to pass it.

Did I mention that you only get 2-5 attempts to take it in many states?

That one exam can ruin your life, be sure you think you can see the goal through because you're playing for ALL the marbles with that one.

While that is a daunting thought, I wont sell myself short in life for fear of failing. My bachelors degree is unrelated, so it really would not be a waste if I were to be in the position where I couldn't pass the NAVLE. I am considering routes besides DVM as well. All of my potential choices require licensing exams too. No matter what, I will be faced with some licensing exam and I definitely intend to pass! With the enormous amount of student loans I will have to take out, I can't see failure as an option. But you are right, it is definitely a good idea to have a clear view of what you are getting into before diving in!

 

[jmo1012]

While that is a daunting thought, I wont sell myself short in life for fear of failing. My bachelors degree is unrelated, so it really would not be a waste if I were to be in the position where I couldn't pass the NAVLE. I am considering routes besides DVM as well. All of my potential choices require licensing exams too. No matter what, I will be faced with some licensing exam and I definitely intend to pass! With the enormous amount of student loans I will have to take out, I can't see failure as an option. But you are right, it is definitely a good idea to have a clear view of what you are getting into before diving in!

"The pass rate for the NAVLE is obscenely high (90-95% depending on year) and you only need to get around between a 55-65% to pass in any given year." quote from WTF in another thread

yes you could fail, yes it could be a real nightmare, BUT as you said, you can't let fear of failure govern your life. can't not go to vet school in the off chance that you are one of the very few who doesn't pass. is it a real nightmare for those who dont pass? i imagine so, but its a rarity that you dont pass after 1 or 2 rounds

 

[CalliopeDVM]

"The pass rate for the NAVLE is obscenely high (90-95% depending on year)

Yes, and several schools even average a 98% pass rate in many years. I think it's pretty rare for someone to have made it through vet school and not pass the Board exam in their first 2 tries.

Actually, we don't have to imagine, because every (AVMA accredited) vet school has to post pass rates publicly. They need a minimum pass rate of 80% to stay accredited, but most are over 90%.

 

[OneLove1<3]

If you're interested, this site http://iwanttobeaveterinarian.com/ has some good information on being a vet, being a vet student, vet school costs, and loan repayment calculators -- it's a site produced by the charitable arm of the Veterinary Information Network, which is itself is not associated with any veterinary school or veterinary related company (other than itself), so it's pretty unbiased.

Thank you for the link! I have yet to come across this site! Super helpful

 

[VetHusband]

Yup, but not if I faced the debt like that faced by students in US vet schools.......I wouldn't have even done it the first time if it would have cost $200,000 or so.

That's the problem. Standard repayment on that is around $2000 or more a month. IBR helps, but it is pegged to your income so every raise you receive gets chipped away until you hit what would normally be the standard repayment amount. If you live in an expensive housing market and have a kid, or kids, in daycare it can be crushing.

It's hard for the average vet to handle, you don't make a king's ransom in the profession relative to other medical professionals, and it's a financial catastrophe for the 2-10% who can't pass the licensing exam.

There is no declaring bankruptcy with student loans.

Choose wisely.

 

[VetHusband]

Just to add to my comment above. Your student debt can affect your ability to buy a house. Even if your spouse applies for the mortgage the banks will look at your student loan repayment amount and might well deny the loan because of it. Particularly government backed home loans. Even a new car is sketchy.

Not accomplishing your dream to be a vet is awful. Facing the debt without a way to pay for it, at least not a way you sacrificed years to train for...

If you go for it, go all in. ALL in.

 

[CalliopeDVM]

That's the problem. Standard repayment on that is around $2000 or more a month. IBR helps, but it is pegged to your income so every raise you receive gets chipped away until you hit what would normally be the standard repayment amount. If you live in an expensive housing market and have a kid, or kids, in daycare it can be crushing..

I'm surprised there are as many applicants and students in the US as there are. And now, with the seemingly endless supply of willing students, they're opening even more schools. (shaking my head in amazement)

 

[OneLove1<3]

I think so many students still enroll in vet school because this is very much a "passion career". Most veterinarians I have spoken with truly have a passion for their career. It is crazy how much school costs! Absolutely ludicrous. But I think a lot of people go into this field regardless because they can't imagine themselves being happy in any other career. It would be awful to not pass the NAVLE and be stuck with so much student loans. But I just can't let fear get in the way from pursuing a career I would truly enjoy. Regardless of which path I choose, I will have a lot of student loans and have to pass licensing exams. I might as well choose the best fit for me!

Are there any other veterinarians on here who would not choose this profession again for reasons other than the financial burden of student debt?

 

[Minnerbelle]

Are there any other veterinarians on here who would not choose this profession again for reasons other than the financial burden of student debt?

A year ago on this very day I probably would have told you that I'd rather drive off a cliff than continue to do what I was doing. But I had a horrendous nightmarish first job. Many many many people do. Bad first, second, maybe even third jobs. There are a lot of horrible vet jobs out there. I know a lot of depressed veterinarians out there and finances and poor job fit are the biggies.

But I've been at a practice now that I love, and I work in an environment where I can be the best veterinarian I can be, I can practice however I please, with a wonderful client base and awesome staff and coworkers, earning more than I ever cared to earn. Life is awesome. I absolutely can't imagine doing anything else that would be more fulfilling.

So finding the right fit within the profession is a huge part. It just seems like most of the job openings are at the bad places, because they cycle through so many doctors. The good ones are few and far in between, especially for newbies.

 

[VetHusband]

Are there any other veterinarians on here who would not choose this profession again for reasons other than the financial burden of student debt?

If you don't like dealing with people this is not the profession for you. The animals don't pay the bills. The animals aren't responsible for taking, or not taking, medications. The animals aren't responsible for stupid things people do. The animals aren't the ones who are going to roast you if something goes wrong or not to someone's liking. The animals don't go to Dr. Google or a breeder and try to lecture you.

There will be days where you put down multiple dogs or cats and you will have to find a way to compartmentalize the emotions that go with that because frequently it will be harder on the owners than the animal. Guess who has to try and do the consoling? There will be days where you have to give them the bill for that and the blow back will be horrendous for you. There will be days where people blame you for the death of the animal because they can't afford to pay for a life saving procedure. There will be days where you want to throttle the owner right then and there (ie- my wife dealt with people on an externship in Detroit who wouldn't even bother to pick up FREE medication for their animal and/or administer it to fight an infection and the dog(s) would die).

Further, while my wife has yet to pass the exam, she has tried to stay active the only way she can by working as a tech and I can tell you based on her stories to me, as well as vet school colleagues of hers who do practice, that one of the things that really leaps out about the profession is that a lot of veterinarians couldn't manage their way out of a paper bag let alone a practice. Supply shortages, staffing problems, poor HR practices, bad accounting, failure to get each others' backs with clients, and more seem to be the common things I hear about both from her and friends in the field.

A lot of doctors would do themselves a favor by hiring a good practice manager to deal with many of the issues while they practice medicine. A lot could use some time in a business school as well.

Also understand that many many many personal relationships (boyfriends/girlfriends, husbands, wives, etc) fail while people are in vet school. I am not necessarily the norm. If you think it is going to be hard, ramp that thought up a magnitude of ten. Then graduate and deal with the public, who doesn't give one rip about what you went through to get there to serve them.

Choose wisely. Some are cut out for this, some aren't. It's more than just the animals and the academics involved to get there.

 

[DVMDream]

My suggestion is to remember that your DVM will be 100% worthless if you can not pass the NAVLE. Let me repeat that, your bachelor's degree and your DVM will be so much waste in the round file if you can not pass that test and you will have accumulated a lot of student debt along the way (at least if you are like most) if you fail to pass it.

Did I mention that you only get 2-5 attempts to take it in many states?

That one exam can ruin your life, be sure you think you can see the goal through because you're playing for ALL the marbles with that one.

I have known this since I was about 14 years old... and most people know this first year of vet school.

There aren't many (if any) professional careers I can think of that allow you to do your job without being licensed. It is kind of important. This isn't just limited to veterinary medicine. It is kind of a known.

I don't see how your bachelor's degree ends up being a waste though... unless you majored in something really stupid like religious studies. A bachelor's degree is an easy way to do something like teach... yeah, you have to get a teaching certificate and stuff, but that isn't too difficult. You can make something out of it if you really need to, but the truth is there are so, so, so few that need to do this it is basically a non-issue....

 

[VetHusband]

I don't see how your bachelor's degree ends up being a waste though... unless you majored in something really stupid like religious studies. A bachelor's degree is an easy way to do something like teach... yeah, you have to get a teaching certificate and stuff, but that isn't too difficult. You can make something out of it if you really need to, but the truth is there are so, so, so few that need to do this it is basically a non-issue....

It's not a non-issue if you're the unicorn in crowd. People don't talk about it, there is no support network, and vet schools effectively cover it up and instead focus on their successes and not their failures.

You're a chump if you don't think the NAVLE isn't anything more than a money making endeavor for the non-governmental third party that produces it. Many professions require licenses yes. They also often don't have anywhere near as tough a set of demands. Don't believe it? Go ask a doctor, dentist, optometrist, or any other medical professional dealing with humans if they needed to know what you do, for multiple species, for the NAVLE in it's current format.

But go ahead, polish that turd if it makes you feel better.

 

[DVMDream]

It's not a non-issue if you're the unicorn in crowd. People don't talk about it, there is no support network, and vet schools effectively cover it up and instead focus on their successes and not their failures.

You're a chump if you don't think the NAVLE isn't anything more than a money making endeavor for the non-governmental third party that produces it. Many professions require licenses yes. They also often don't have anywhere near as tough a set of demands. Don't believe it? Go ask a doctor, dentist, optometrist, or any other medical professional dealing with humans if they needed to know what you do, for multiple species, for the NAVLE in it's current format.

But go ahead, polish that turd if it makes you feel better.

Actually, I have a family member who failed the PT licensing exam multiple times and finally gave up.

And the Step exams to become a doctor are no cake walk. And guarantee their exams go much more in depth while the NAVLE is more broad based.

 

[VetHusband]

Actually, I have a family member who failed the PT licensing exam multiple times and finally gave up.

And the Step exams to become a doctor are no cake walk. And guarantee their exams go much more in depth while the NAVLE is more broad based.

Yes, and there has also been more than one vet med student who flunked out of veterinary school that went on to become a physician.

 

[JosephKnechtDVM]

Just wait until you have to take the NAVLE again in order to get a job in another state. State boards can use NAVLE in anyway that they want to determine your competency even if you may have years of experience in particular aspect of veterinary medcine. Also often times faculty and anyone with a board certification get licenses without any further type of "competency" measurement by boards. Also note that in some states if you are not fully employed for a number of years prior to requesting a license, they can require you to take the NAVLE over, even if you do not want to practice in all of those areas covered by the NAVLE and even though you may still be licensed in good standing in other states. Also some states put a time limit on the age of the NAVLE scores before issuing licenses even if again you have been licensed in other states and are in good standing. Another fact about licensing is that as long as you hold a license and fulfill the yearly requirements of minimum CE and fee payment, you do not have to be practicing in any way for years to maintain the privilege of practicing in that state. I know of a lab scientist with a DVM who moved back into clinical small animal practice after 20 years in industry and no clinical practice after receiving the DVM over twenty years ago. He got licensed , filed it and then just paid the yearly license fees for 20 years until he decided he wanted be a clinical vet in retirement.

 

[Lupin21]

Aren't both of these (Vethusband's wife and JK's Navle abuse) extreme outliers though? I mean, nothing is ever going to be a perfect system. Perfection does not exist. And don't get me wrong, it is awful for those who fall outside the bell curve and have a living hell occur because of the system. I just don't see a proposed fix for it that doesn't incur some high risk of chaos. I am not advocating either way, just objectively asking a question.

 

[dyachei]

Aren't both of these (Vethusband's wife and JK's Navle abuse) extreme outliers though? I mean, nothing is ever going to be a perfect system. Perfection does not exist. And don't get me wrong, it is awful for those who fall outside the bell curve and have a living hell occur because of the system. I just don't see a proposed fix for it that doesn't incur some high risk of chaos. I am not advocating either way, just objectively asking a question.

They are.

Yes, states can use the NAVLE however they want. Just because a student can pass medical exams and not vet med exams doesn't mean that they are easier. It's comparing 2 very different board exams. And their board certification exams can be a nightmare and are much more often, depending on specialty.

 

[CalliopeDVM]

It's not a non-issue if you're the unicorn in crowd. People don't talk about it, there is no support network, and vet schools effectively cover it up and instead focus on their successes and not their failures.

Yup.......unicorns don't get a lot of support. Those of us on the fringes of the bell curve (or off the bell curve) can have a hard time of things sometimes. Get used to it and move on. Been there, done that, have the T-shirt.

You can't expect perfection and total inclusion in anything designed for a large, diverse group.



By the way, how are vet schools covering it up? Their pass rate is publicly listed on their website, usually with stats for the past 5 or 10 years. Everyone can know exactly how many passed and failed. And what's wrong with focusing on their overwhelming success? Any person who scored 96% on an exam shouldn't be focusing on the 4% of the marks they got wrong, they should be celebrating. Any company that sells 98% of their product would be thrilled, not wringing their hands over the 2% of product that didn't leave the shelves. A school that can help 95%+ of their students to pass the licensing exam should be proud of that number.

 

[JosephKnechtDVM]

Actually most of you do not know anything about occupational licensing which is the reason for these tests. The purpose is to protect the public with the idea that the members of the profession being the only ones who can judge quality and establish the scope of what falls under the scope of practice. Thus they write the exams and establish the regulations. In veterinary medicine, the previous NBE and CCT exams were criticized as being overly broad in their scope as far back as the the Ninth Veterinary Educational Symposium in 1987, (JVME Fall, 1987). Similar comments were expressed in the Pew Report on Veterinary Medicine in 1988, edited by William Pritchard, DVM, PhD, JD on licensing and education. Dr Pritchard was Dean at UC Davis and the namesake for the Teaching Hospital.
FYI, several states along with the Federation of State Medical Boards, have an Interstate Licensing Compact that allows physicians to practice in the states party to that compact without requiring licensing in each state. So why is the veterinary licensing system so good that it never needs to change to take account of the need for increased mobility for professionals to move to where there is need for their services exists? Some states only meet every 6 months and require the board members themselves to vote yay/nay on your application (MT for example). This really is a matter of free trade and anti trust laws that keep our economy functioning fairly rather than putting the whims of veterinary medicine ahead of the little laypeople who just do not understand how our profession only has the best intentions for them.

 

[Squeaksmom]

It's not a non-issue if you're the unicorn in crowd. People don't talk about it, there is no support network, and vet schools effectively cover it up and instead focus on their successes and not their failures.

You're a chump if you don't think the NAVLE isn't anything more than a money making endeavor for the non-governmental third party that produces it. Many professions require licenses yes. They also often don't have anywhere near as tough a set of demands. Don't believe it? Go ask a doctor, dentist, optometrist, or any other medical professional dealing with humans if they needed to know what you do, for multiple species, for the NAVLE in it's current format.

But go ahead, polish that turd if it makes you feel better.

To the bold: Human medical professionals don't deal with multiple species, vets do. If the crux of your argument is that it's unfair to ask the multi-species professionals to have a broad knowledge of multiple species, I'm afraid you're making it hard to take your position seriously! Human medical professionals are required to have an in-depth knowledge of the one species they deal with, as is only fair.

 

[dyachei]

Actually most of you do not know anything about occupational licensing which is the reason for these tests. The purpose is to protect the public with the idea that the members of the profession being the only ones who can judge quality and establish the scope of what falls under the scope of practice. Thus they write the exams and establish the regulations. In veterinary medicine, the previous NBE and CCT exams were criticized as being overly broad in their scope as far back as the the Ninth Veterinary Educational Symposium in 1987, (JVME Fall, 1987). Similar comments were expressed in the Pew Report on Veterinary Medicine in 1988, edited by William Pritchard, DVM, PhD, JD on licensing and education. Dr Pritchard was Dean at UC Davis and the namesake for the Teaching Hospital.
FYI, several states along with the Federation of State Medical Boards, have an Interstate Licensing Compact that allows physicians to practice in the states party to that compact without requiring licensing in each state. So why is the veterinary licensing system so good that it never needs to change to take account of the need for increased mobility for professionals to move to where there is need for their services exists? Some states only meet every 6 months and require the board members themselves to vote yay/nay on your application (MT for example). This really is a matter of free trade and anti trust laws that keep our economy functioning fairly rather than putting the whims of veterinary medicine ahead of the little laypeople who just do not understand how our profession only has the best intentions for them.

the majority of states have agreements on licensing with other states. There are exceptions. So this is almost a non-issue. Exceptions include NY and CA if I remember correctly.

 

[CalliopeDVM]

FYI, several states along with the Federation of State Medical Boards, have an Interstate Licensing Compact that allows physicians to practice in the states party to that compact without requiring licensing in each state. So why is the veterinary licensing system so good that it never needs to change to take account of the need for increased mobility for professionals to move to where there is need for their services exists? Some states only meet every 6 months and require the board members themselves to vote yay/nay on your application (MT for example). This really is a matter of free trade and anti trust laws that keep our economy functioning fairly rather than putting the whims of veterinary medicine ahead of the little laypeople who just do not understand how our profession only has the best intentions for them.

No, the Interstate Licensing Compact only allows for an expedited licensing for physicians in the included states - they still have to apply, have all their qualifications verified, and pay the appropriate fees. It's a streamlining issue - and a good one - but it does not remove the need for a license in each state. Honestly, not much different than the way it is for most states regarding veterinary licenses - make an application, submit their qualifications, and pay the fee . And sometimes a vet is granted the limited right to practice while the application is pending.

From the Compact's FAQ: "From the Compact's preamble: "The Compact creates another pathway for licensure and does not otherwise change a state's existing Medical Practice Act.".......A state's existing Medical Practice Act and related regulatory laws apply once a physician obtains state licensure through the Compact. Therefore, a physician licensed by a state via the Compact pathway MUST abide by all of the laws, rules, and regulations of that state where the patient is located and the practice of medicine occurs."

It's a good move, but not any better or faster than what most vets moving between most states will face.

 

[DVMDream]

Yes, and there has also been more than one vet med student who flunked out of veterinary school that went on to become a physician.

Veterinary school does not equal NAVLE...

So, some vet med students flunked out of school, probably re-took some pre-reqs, applied to medical school, got accepted and succeeded. There were also probably at least 1-3 or more years between "flunking out of vet school" and acceptance to med school. Which also brings about more maturity, learning, etc.

Perhaps these very few people who flunk out of vet school and went to med school had any of the following:
1. They weren't ready for vet school. They weren't mature enough/prepared enough/whatever.
2. They had testing anxiety or a learning problem that they identified and got help for
3. Once they started med school, after flunking vet school, they had more of their **** together and knew what they were up against. (See: increased maturity).
4. Maybe they lost interest with vet school/vet med and that is what lead them to fail?

The above statement shows you can't see the disconnect and how that can happen. People sometimes fail at one thing and succeed at another, that doesn't make the second thing "easy". There are many reasons as to why that can happen.

 

[Dr.Nosh]

Dentist use outdated techniques?

 

[battie]

Just to add to my comment above. Your student debt can affect your ability to buy a house. Even if your spouse applies for the mortgage the banks will look at your student loan repayment amount and might well deny the loan because of it. Particularly government backed home loans. Even a new car is sketchy.

What if the spouse bought the house/car without you? My mom isn't on our mortgage or anything and has no control over our house; just my dad. They did this because my mom has absolutely horrible credit.

 

[VetHusband]

What if the spouse bought the house/car without you? My mom isn't on our mortgage or anything and has no control over our house; just my dad. They did this because my mom has absolutely horrible credit.

FHA and USDA loans will require both parties to have their debts and credit history considered. It does not matter if the person without the loans is applying by themselves. The auditors will look at both of you. Conventional loans are more forgiving but the auditors will still see the loan and associated monthly payment and depending on the situation may deny the loan then too. Income Based Repayment on your student loans helps you get around a lot of that. Especially if you both are working.

Car loans are a tad more forgiving but I've even had one of those almost go south because of my wife's loans.

 

[OneLove1<3]

But I've been at a practice now that I love, and I work in an environment where I can be the best veterinarian I can be, I can practice however I please, with a wonderful client base and awesome staff and coworkers, earning more than I ever cared to earn. Life is awesome. I absolutely can't imagine doing anything else that would be more fulfilling.

This is so awesome to hear! Over the course of picking several veterinarian's brains, I have learned that many start in a job they hate. Many of those veterinarians go on to own their own practice. It seems the general consensus is that as a newbie, you will probably have to work in a job that is less than stellar at first, but eventually if you persevere you can land a job you love and that is where it all becomes "worth it".

If you don't like dealing with people this is not the profession for you.

Absolutely. This career is very much a "people person" career. I understand that I would be working with people A LOT. This doesn't bother me. I enjoy working with people and I think veterinary medicine is great because you can work with people and bond over their animals while using your expertise in the sciences to practice medicine. Also, if I don't go into vet med I will be choosing a career in the human medical field. My bachelors is a human related field. I already have some experience working with people one on one, and I enjoy it!

There will be days where you put down multiple dogs or cats and you will have to find a way to compartmentalize the emotions that go with that because frequently it will be harder on the owners than the animal.

This is an area of veterinary medicine I would like to hear more opinions on. Euthanasia can be the greatest gift you can give to a suffering animal. Although I am not a veterinarian, it seems like many tell me this can be a relieving process. Helping an animal pass on comfortably to relieve suffering can be quite the gift. I do wonder about the emotional impact of this though. Although you know you are helping the animal, does it strain you emotionally to deal with death so often? Do you find that you feel depressed because of the loss you have to endure? Is this a contributor to the higher than average suicide rates?

I see that this thread has transformed into a discussion about licensing exams which is not what I intended. I expect to take a licensing exam regardless of whatever profession I decide on. When it comes to school, I am a very dedicated student. I have good study habits, and I do well with tests. It would be an absolute nightmare to not pass a licensing exam after so many years of hard work and so much student debt accumulated but I truly don't think this will happen. I am not going to choose my career based on what licensing exam I think will be easier to pass. I am well aware as an undergraduate student that after graduate school, I will have to prove my capabilities to be a professional within the field I study. Throughout graduate school I intend to truly learn, so that I am well prepared for this test and for the real world.

 

[battie]

FHA and USDA loans will require both parties to have their debts and credit history considered. It does not matter if the person without the loans is applying by themselves. The auditors will look at both of you. Conventional loans are more forgiving but the auditors will still see the loan and associated monthly payment and depending on the situation may deny the loan then too. Income Based Repayment on your student loans helps you get around a lot of that. Especially if you both are working.

Car loans are a tad more forgiving but I've even had one of those almost go south because of my wife's loans.

Then I wonder what my parents did to have my mom's information not considered at all. She was in the same amount of debt, just for a different reason.

 

[VetHusband]

Then I wonder what my parents did to have my mom's information not considered at all. She was in the same amount of debt, just for a different reason.

The debt equation is what changes the stakes with these degrees. It's not as simple as "go to school some more if it doesn't work out." Student debt matters, every additional dollar you pile on does.

 

[dyachei]

This is an area of veterinary medicine I would like to hear more opinions on. Euthanasia can be the greatest gift you can give to a suffering animal. Although I am not a veterinarian, it seems like many tell me this can be a relieving process. Helping an animal pass on comfortably to relieve suffering can be quite the gift. I do wonder about the emotional impact of this though. Although you know you are helping the animal, does it strain you emotionally to deal with death so often? Do you find that you feel depressed because of the loss you have to endure? Is this a contributor to the higher than average suicide rates?

I see that this thread has transformed into a discussion about licensing exams which is not what I intended. I expect to take a licensing exam regardless of whatever profession I decide on. When it comes to school, I am a very dedicated student. I have good study habits, and I do well with tests. It would be an absolute nightmare to not pass a licensing exam after so many years of hard work and so much student debt accumulated but I truly don't think this will happen. I am not going to choose my career based on what licensing exam I think will be easier to pass. I am well aware as an undergraduate student that after graduate school, I will have to prove my capabilities to be a professional within the field I study. Throughout graduate school I intend to truly learn, so that I am well prepared for this test and for the real world.

As a vet, there is an issue of compassion fatigue. Very rarely, for me, is that as a result of euthanasias. There are always some that hit harder than others. Compassion fatigue, for me, is usually as a result of wanting to help animals and the owners not allowing me to. I think that's a higher contributor to suicide rates. It's also that we tend to be type A, driven individuals.

 

[battie]

The debt equation is what changes the stakes with these degrees. It's not as simple as "go to school some more if it doesn't work out." Student debt matters, every additional dollar you pile on does.

I don't understand how that is connected with my statement. My mom was in 250,000 debt because of her business and poor business decisions. There was no "go to school some more if it doesn't work out."

 

[dyachei]

I don't understand how that is connected with my statement. My mom was in 250,000 debt because of her business and poor business decisions. There was no "go to school some more if it doesn't work out."

it's how he responds to everything. He somehow feels misled that vet school doesn't = a job without the NAVLE and that others don't understand the student debt issue.

 

[VetHusband]

I don't understand how that is connected with my statement. My mom was in 250,000 debt because of her business and poor business decisions. There was no "go to school some more if it doesn't work out."

I don't have an answer to your question. I just know, from experience, that auditors will deny you a loan if your debt to income ratio is lopsided and if one half of the party is a vet school grad they will look at their debt negatively. And for most people a $2000-$2700 a month standard repayment amount will keep you out of a house.

That's why I said IBR helps.

 

[VetHusband]

it's how he responds to everything. He somehow feels misled that vet school doesn't = a job without the NAVLE and that others don't understand the student debt issue.

That's because there is no job without the NAVLE in veterinary medicine. Sure, you can work as a tech but those wages are often laughable and I suppose practice management is an avenue, but beyond that...the license is the ticket to all things veterinary. Without it you get a pile of debt and high minded talk from people who don't have to worry about it.

 

[battie]

I don't have an answer to your question. I just know, from experience, that auditors will deny you a loan if your debt to income ratio is lopsided and if one half of the party is a vet school grad they will look at their debt negatively. And for most people a $2000-$2700 a month standard repayment amount will keep you out of a house. That's why I said IBR helps.

I wasn't looking for an answer. I was just replying to your post. But your reply to my reply really doesn't have anything to do with my statement, and that's why I was confused. Now that I know that you weren't really replying to my reply, then it's just another statement to me.

it's how he responds to everything. He somehow feels misled that vet school doesn't = a job without the NAVLE and that others don't understand the student debt issue.

I read the other thread, but this seemed like a safer place. lol.

That's because there is no job without the NAVLE in veterinary medicine. Sure, you can work as a tech but those wages are often laughable and I suppose practice management is an avenue, but beyond that...the license is the ticket to all things veterinary. Without it you get a pile of debt and high minded talk from people who don't have to worry about it.

There probably really shouldn't be a job without the NAVLE. Human doctors can't really practice without a license as far as I know. My boyfriend had to take a 6 hour exam after earning his mechanical engineering undergrad degree in order to be able to use his exam. There's no reason to say that just because you get a degree means that you know the information unless you are forced to use it. People "study and dump" all the time where they study for one test, pass, dump the info, and move on to the next test/project/whatever. The NAVLE is that force for a new grad from that new grad.

 

[OneLove1<3]

As a vet, there is an issue of compassion fatigue. Very rarely, for me, is that as a result of euthanasias. There are always some that hit harder than others. Compassion fatigue, for me, is usually as a result of wanting to help animals and the owners not allowing me to. I think that's a higher contributor to suicide rates. It's also that we tend to be type A, driven individuals.

Does this happen often? Enough to affect your quality of life and happiness?

 

[dyachei]

Does this happen often? Enough to affect your quality of life and happiness?

If you don't have a good work-life balance, absolutely! It can happen quite often. It's one of the downsides of vet med

That's because there is no job without the NAVLE in veterinary medicine. Sure, you can work as a tech but those wages are often laughable and I suppose practice management is an avenue, but beyond that...the license is the ticket to all things veterinary. Without it you get a pile of debt and high minded talk from people who don't have to worry about it.

We've been over this before. There should not have been ANY expectation by your wife that she would be employable without passing this exam. It doesn't make me high-minded. It is a simple fact that most schools repeat on many occasions. And quite honestly, your wife is in a very small percentage of people that have had issue with it. Does that make me feel sorry for her situation? Absolutely. Does it mean that the NAVLE should be done away with? Nope.

 

[KCgophervet]

I don't have an answer to your question. I just know, from experience, that auditors will deny you a loan if your debt to income ratio is lopsided and if one half of the party is a vet school grad they will look at their debt negatively. And for most people a $2000-$2700 a month standard repayment amount will keep you out of a house.

That's why I said IBR helps.

I had heard, through my own research on loans etc, that you should file your taxes separately in order to get the maximum benefit of IBR, because it will only take into account the person with the debt's income info rather than the combo of debtor + spouse's income... therefore end up paying less per month on loans (though that doesn't make the final balance go down any quicker). I just kind of assumed it would be a similar situation with applying for house or car loans? It seems odd to me that they would take into account your spouse's info if you apply for it solo; not all married couples combine finances.

 

[CalliopeDVM]

FHA and USDA loans will require both parties to have their debts and credit history considered. It does not matter if the person without the loans is applying by themselves. The auditors will look at both of you. Conventional loans are more forgiving but the auditors will still see the loan and associated monthly payment and depending on the situation may deny the loan then too. Income Based Repayment on your student loans helps you get around a lot of that. Especially if you both are working.

Car loans are a tad more forgiving but I've even had one of those almost go south because of my wife's loans.

Then I wonder what my parents did to have my mom's information not considered at all. She was in the same amount of debt, just for a different reason.

Maybe they got a loan and/or mortgage through a private source (i.e. banks) and not through a Federal agency.

This is so awesome to hear! Over the course of picking several veterinarian's brains, I have learned that many start in a job they hate. Many of those veterinarians go on to own their own practice. It seems the general consensus is that as a newbie, you will probably have to work in a job that is less than stellar at first, but eventually if you persevere you can land a job you love and that is where it all becomes "worth it".

One of the reasons that it's common for a new grad to not like or not stay at his/her first job is they are hard to "shop for".......it's hard to shop for something you've never bought before. A new grad often doesn't really know what to look for, what to ask, and how to evaluate what they see/hear to compare to what they want - or even what they think they want. Another reason is that the learning curve moves so quickly after graduation that often what a new grad thinks he/she wants turns out to not be what he/she wants 6 months later, and how he/she practices 1 month after graduation is different than how he/she wants to practice 1 year after graduation.

This is an area of veterinary medicine I would like to hear more opinions on. Euthanasia can be the greatest gift you can give to a suffering animal. Although I am not a veterinarian, it seems like many tell me this can be a relieving process. Helping an animal pass on comfortably to relieve suffering can be quite the gift. I do wonder about the emotional impact of this though. Although you know you are helping the animal, does it strain you emotionally to deal with death so often? Do you find that you feel depressed because of the loss you have to endure? Is this a contributor to the higher than average suicide rates?

I think euthanasias are usually not a component of the difficult emotional time many vets have (or even occasionally have) about the job. Certainly a run of many of them at the same time can be emotionally difficult, but they are far from the hardest parts of the job. Compassion fatigue and burn out are real, but euthanasias are often not a big part (or any part) of that. There is definitely a need for a vet to have good outside support, in one of many forms (family, hobbies, sports, etc).

That's because there is no job without the NAVLE in veterinary medicine. Sure, you can work as a tech but those wages are often laughable and I suppose practice management is an avenue, but beyond that...the license is the ticket to all things veterinary. Without it you get a pile of debt and high minded talk from people who don't have to worry about it.

Of course one shouldn't be allowed to practice medicine without a license to practice medicine. Why should it be any other way?

 

[Megrim]

As a vet, there is an issue of compassion fatigue. Very rarely, for me, is that as a result of euthanasias. There are always some that hit harder than others. Compassion fatigue, for me, is usually as a result of wanting to help animals and the owners not allowing me to. I think that's a higher contributor to suicide rates. It's also that we tend to be type A, driven individuals.

I second this. I haven't been in practice long enough to have had lifelong patients, or years+ chronic patients, so I'm sure my feelings about this will change with time. However, right now, euthanasia is one of the easier things I do. It's sad when the owners are deeply affected, and it can keep me up at night thinking to myself if I wasn't sure of my diagnosis, or the owners wanted to put down and I didn't really agree, etc--but for the large part, I saw it coming a mile away, and it's a relief to stop struggling to fix a cat who won't eat and has turned into skin and bones, or let go of a big old dog who can barely walk. Everything I say is scripted, and I always use a sedative so issues with the injection are very rare. It's not like when I go into a room and have no idea how to answer questions or what is wrong with the pet, which happens to me constantly as a new grad and can be far more distressing.

Regarding the suicide rates and compassion fatigue, euthanasia isn't the highest thing on my list. I hear so many people say, "I could never be a vet because I could never put down animals," but honestly it really isn't something that affects me a lot. Like others have said, not being able to help an animal because the owner won't let you is frustrating, especially when the owner is really emotional but has poor compliance and won't follow directions or let you do testing for no rational reason. The hardest ones are the poor people, who deeply love their pets and want to do everything they can and understand everything I'm telling them, but can't afford to do much beyond a course of antibiotics.

As for the original topic of the post - advice for an undergrad considering dvm - I will say make sure you know what you're getting into. Vet school involved way more farm work than I realised, for example. Lots of palpating sheep testicles and lectures on how grass grows, not something I pictured when I was a kid bringing my dog to the vet and asking him what it was like. Also the things I run into day to day on the job, what irritates me or slows me down, are not things I would have predicted.

On an unrelated note, I was really surprised to see the NAVLE fearmongering on this thread. Maybe it's because I was off in NZ, but I've never heard people talk about NAVLE that way. Get VetPrep, study during your whole final year, and you should have NO problem. Pretty much everyone passes, and if not, you can just retake it. One of our clinicians told us that during hers, near the end, she was so burnt out after 6 hours of testing that she pretty much started guessing randomly for the last module, and she passed on her first go just fine. Terrifying students about NAVLE when they haven't even started first year seems ridiculous to me. That should be way low on your priorities right now.

 

[Minnerbelle]

Another large component of compassion fatigue is also not being able to practice the way you want to, or the way you know you should. Sometimes it's not even the owner that's preventing you from what you want to do. Practice management is a huge part of that. Not carrying life saving drugs, or only carrying suboptimal drugs. Needing to refer away cases (particularly to places that the owners cannot afford) that you are 100% capable of handling because there is no time in your schedule to fit a needed procedure. Not being able to appropriately hospitalize patients. Not offering diagnostics that you know you should be offering because the price is ridiculously jacked up. Having old timey vets and practice managers that for some reason will not allow you to practice good medicine even though it is feasible AND profitable. The guilt and sadness of not being able to do the best for your patient when you should be able to. Needing to do something that you know is wrong, even when you shouldn't have to and other alternatives should be readily available. That kills you inside very quickly.

 

[Minnerbelle]

Pre-vets seem to be very hung up on euthanasias and also other things like declaws and tail docking and such, but those are all things that don't bother me all that much or are totally nonissues for me.

 

[VetHusband]

Pre-vets seem to be very hung up on euthanasias and also other things like declaws and tail docking and such, but those are all things that don't bother me all that much or are totally nonissues for me.

A lot of breeders won't go to a vet to have tail docking done anyhow.