Advice about Neuro Res if low step 1 score

[Skepneuro]

I am wondering if someone could help me get a realistic view of my chances of getting into a neurology residency program.

I am a US citizen 3rd year medical student in an international medical school. I passed my Step 1 score with only a 81. I have just recently taken my CS and will be taking my CK in August.

Can some please throw out some feedback to me, if my step 1 score was too low to get into a neuro residency program?

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[LAhottie]

neuro is getting real competitive, especially categorical. good luck,

 

[cyneuron]

neuro is getting real competitive, especially categorical. good luck,

The question is how much competitive ?

Traditionally Neuro has been considered less competitive than IM, but more competitive than Psychiatry & Family Medicine.

(I am not clear about reasons for it. One frequently cited reason is lack of treatment options and procedures and thus less money and interest...any more reasons ?)

So whats the trend now (not just talks, real life trends) ? Is it getting closer to IM, or even crossing it in terms of competitiveness ?

If one cites rising Step 1 and Step 2 scores in Neurology from NRMP data (and well, these scores are increasing in general), I personally think that these figures, though useful, reflect data only, not the real scenario which may involve lots of variation...Every candidate needs just one seat...this is where variability, and not just statistics figures, plays a major role....so I always like to take expert people's opinion, not just figures, on such questions to influence and guide me.

Request if attendings and fellows may kindly chip in here to provide some real life picture....

 

[cyneuron]

I am wondering if someone could help me get a realistic view of my chances of getting into a neurology residency program.
I am a US citizen 3rd year medical student in an international medical school. I passed my Step 1 score with only a 81. I have just recently taken my CS and will be taking my CK in August.
Can some please throw out some feedback to me, if my step 1 score was too low to get into a neuro residency program?

As far as I personally think, Step 1 score of 81 is low but as it is said, USMLE process involves nearly 10 variables, namely USMLE Score Step 1, 2CK, Step 2 CS pass attempt, medical school, clinical experience, research experience, publications, letter of recommendations, your manifest interest in field, personal statement, networking skills and contacts and even Step 3 Score if you decide to give it before applying....

And i would also like to make another distinction in USMLE process...getting interviewing calls and getting matched/pre-matched. The former process, that is getting interview calls, is more affected by scores...few places literally filter applications based on scores (say 80 for AMG and 90 for FMG)...so your final credentials will matter only if you will get the call....but you can use your contacts and networking skills here to cover for some of your deficiencies and increase chances of getting call for interview. (Update - just got feedback from an expert SDNer. This filtering may not be as common as perceived. Read here - 2012 match won't invlove two digit scores in ERAS transcript. )

So i guess you can never give up the hope...btw above said things apply to not just neuro, rather to USMLE in geenral...

And if it helps, 2012 match won't invlove two digit scores in ERAS transcript...read here.....Its a major change...

Changes to USMLE Procedures for Reporting Scores

(posted May 5, 2011)
Starting July 1, 2011, USMLE transcripts reported through the ERAS reporting system will no longer include score results on the two-digit score scale. USMLE results will continue to be reported on the three-digit scale. This affects the Step 1, 2 CK, and 3 examinations only; Step 2 CS will continue to be reported as pass or fail. These changes do not alter the score required to pass or the difficulty of any of the USMLE Step examinations.

don't know how will it affect 2012 match applications, specifically Neuro....(attendings again please chip in here )

 

[95439]

neuro is getting real competitive, especially categorical. good luck,

LAhottie, you've PM'd me for information before. What kind of answer is that?

Anyway, Skepneuro, just pick up the slack and try to do well on Step 2. REALLY well. Do USMLE World questions until you've memorized every answer and alternative answer there is. Focus on IM, Peds, and ObGyn, those are the majority. If you break down IM - it's mainly cardio, then GI, then Neuro, then etc. Questions questions questions..good luck and ignore the haters.

 

[bustbones26]

I am far from racist, but I was the only white guy to show up for my neurology board exam.

Neurology may be slightly more competetive these day than it asy in the past, but I am not sure if I can rightly say that a specialty chock full of FMGs, even to this very day, is really competitive?

Scores are not enough, its the whole picture. You will not be selected/de-selected on scores alone.

 

[cyneuron]

I am far from racist, but I was the only white guy to show up for my neurology board exam.

Definitely not racist, but surely funny to hear that....

I am far from racist, but I was the only white guy to show up for my neurology board exam.

Neurology may be slightly more competetive these day than it asy in the past, but I am not sure if I can rightly say that a specialty chock full of FMGs, even to this very day, is really competitive?

But neurology board exam population should reflect the mixture of candidates who were selected nearly 4-6 years ago...the competition scenario may be different now Sir.

 

[neurolover2013]

good luck to you. my step 1 score was below avg and i matched into a "top 25 program". I think asides form maybe the top 10 or so programs, you still have a shot at matching at a good place

as far as competitiveness, all i can pt to is hearsay and the upward trend in step 1 scores in neuro which really seem on the upswing if you look at the past few years nrmp data...also at most of my interviews (not just top places), there were only a few fmg but mostly amg

i think neuro is getting much more competitive but still is not and may never be as competitive as some of the other specialties..good luck

 

[PMPMD]

Traditionally Neuro has been considered less competitive than IM, but more competitive than Psychiatry & Family Medicine.

....

Depends on how far back you want to go... In my dad's day (60s-70s) neurology was quite competitive, while ortho and some surgical subspecs were among the least competitive. This was before the reimbursement restructuring of the 80s.

 

[BrainBuff]

Hey PMPMD , is your avatar the chick from the film "The Audition"?? I have talked to so many people about that film and no one has seen it..Quiet a find if it is! LOL

 

[sarcoid]

neuro is getting real competitive, especially categorical. good luck,

To belay the point of other posters, Neuro isn't getting very competitive for USMG's. Looking at the NRMP match statistics for Neurology:
% filled by US Seniors:
2011 59%
2010 49%
2009 62%
2008 59%
2007 52%
2006 52%
2005 46%
2004 52%
2003 45%

True, it jumped this last year by 10%, but it still was less than 60% and it doesn't indicate a trend. The only specs with lower USMG %'s are in FM, Peds, pathology, and IM. I don't believe it is getting to be more competitive if you are a US-trained physician. From the calls I've made to some programs, most state that they don't have a cutoff for step 1 scores (or that it needs to be passing). I can see that many more IMG's are applying and therefore programs can be selective and choose those with higher scores and this will raise the step 1 avg, but does not necessarily make it more competitive for USMG's IMO.

 

[bronx43]

Depends on how far back you want to go... In my dad's day (60s-70s) neurology was quite competitive, while ortho and some surgical subspecs were among the least competitive. This was before the reimbursement restructuring of the 80s.

Oh man, I've heard so many older docs lament at what specialties are considered competitive nowadays. Back in the day, gen surg was the king of surgery, orthos were the gen surg rejects, and nobody wanted to go into derm. The health care industry will see sweeping changes once again. This time I'm putting my money on the PCPs.

 

[Mattchiavelli]

I'd like to say that just because someone at the board exam is brown doesn't mean they're foreign... I have a few american born Indian guyfriends that have very Desi names and are going into Neurology.

Anyway bust some butt on CK and you will be doing better- not really because higher numbers make you a better person but a program would be more likely to take you if they though you could pass step 3 and get licensed as opposed to having to deal with a resident retaking step 3 over and over and the administrative headache of trying to maintain coverage with one resident basically dead in the water.

Since you're at an international school I'm not sure what your clerkship arrangements are like but make sure you do at least a month of clinical neurology at US academic institution with a neurology residency program, partly to show you can hack it, partly for a good letter or two, and partly for networking. If you like the place, and you impress them enough, you may have found your residency match.

 

[danielmd06]

Neurology is more competitive than previously, but still very do-able for the scores you've got. Work hard on your rotations, be up front and clear in your residency interviews, and work hard on Step 2. Good luck!

Funny with the other comments. A lower percentage of US med grads are in neuro than some other specialties, but if you look at their numbers alone, they are more competitive people (on average) than IM, anesthesia, or EM over the past year (by overall average USMLE Step 1 and 2).

But what difference does it make? If you want it...go for it. Once you've spent half a month on the wards as a resident, you realize that native intelligence, hard work, and affability take you 100 times farther than that test. Remember the MCAT? How well did that work out for some people once they started medical school? Some of the stand-outs in the class were the people with bottom-of-the-barrel scores who had tried 2 or 3 times to get in. They wanted it more...so they went out and did the job. MCAT scores be darned.

Everything goes in cycles. Just like th above posters mentioned with ortho and general surgery. Wait for insurance to cut reimbursements on coronary catherizations (oh wait, they already did) and watch all those cardiology wanna-be applicants suddenly decide how badly they've *always* wanted to do GI...

Do it for love and you might be surprised at how happy you become...

 

[cyneuron]

To belay the point of other posters, Neuro isn't getting very competitive for USMG's. Looking at the NRMP match statistics for Neurology:
% filled by US Seniors:
2011 59%
2010 49%
2009 62%
2008 59%
2007 52%
2006 52%
2005 46%
2004 52%
2003 45%

True, it jumped this last year by 10%, but it still was less than 60% and it doesn't indicate a trend.

True. It can't be labelled as a trend. For example, from 2009 to 2010 there was a drop of 13 %. How do you explain that in the face of rise of 10 % from 2010 to 2011 ?

So better if one doesn't rely on numbers too much.

 

[cyneuron]

But what difference does it make? If you want it...go for it. Once you've spent half a month on the wards as a resident, you realize that native intelligence, hard work, and affability take you 100 times farther than that test. Remember the MCAT? How well did that work out for some people once they started medical school? Some of the stand-outs in the class were the people with bottom-of-the-barrel scores who had tried 2 or 3 times to get in. They wanted it more...so they went out and did the job. MCAT scores be darned.

Do it for love and you might be surprised at how happy you become...

Truly inspiring Sir...

 

[neurochica]

Just keep in mind that some programs have cut offs scores usually of 85 etc. Good luck

 

[clement]

double post

 

[clement]

sorry haters, neuro is not competitive...anything over a 200 for step 1, if you have decent letters and dedication, will get you a bunch of interviews. I know someone with 200-210 on both steps, no research or pubs, osteopathic, got 18 interview invites out of 30 applications, including one top tier and an ivy. The only thing is, you will need to rock the interviews and really kiss some program butt afterward if you like them.

 

[deleted102545]

sorry haters, neuro is not competitive...anything over a 200 for step 1, if you have decent letters and dedication, will get you a bunch of interviews. I know someone with 200-210 on both steps, no research or pubs, osteopathic, got 18 interview invites out of 30 applications, including one top tier and an ivy. The only thing is, you will need to rock the interviews and really kiss some program butt afterward if you like them.

Agreed completely. It might be "more competitive" now but it's still very non-competitive. I had average step 1 and grades, did slightly better on step 2, decent LORs (nothing great or high powered), zero research and I got way more interviews than I could even think about attending, some at top tier programs. I think if you get enough interviews you will match in your top 3 no matter what.

I still don't really understand why neurology is that way though and why it hasn't attracted that many US grads. It's not like it's a dick-off field, starting salaries aren't terrible, there's lots of fellowship opportunities, seems like a good post-residency job market, and good future prospects. I know it's my bias towards neurology that I don't get everyone else's love for it.

 

[sarcoid]

Oh man, I've heard so many older docs lament at what specialties are considered competitive nowadays. Back in the day, gen surg was the king of surgery, orthos were the gen surg rejects, and nobody wanted to go into derm. The health care industry will see sweeping changes once again. This time I'm putting my money on the PCPs.

Excellent point! Its a good time to 'do what you love.' nobody knows how Obamacare will change things.

As far as neuro goes. I wonder if it will benefit from the 'PCP revival'? It is a specialized field, but I know last year the AAN was pushing the PAC to get it added to the list of the primary care pay increase. Anyone know if this ever made it through?

 

[PMPMD]

Hey PMPMD , is your avatar the chick from the film "The Audition"?? I have talked to so many people about that film and no one has seen it..Quiet a find if it is! LOL

Yeah it is! Good pick up. Its a great movie!
I'm actually a white dude, not a hot Asian woman. Sorry to disappoint my fellow SDNers.