Acupuncture? Is it Quackery? Or did Stephen Barrett go to far?

[CatsandCradles]

So I was exploring some the arguments that Dr Stephen Barrett MD makes against acupuncture. And while I think that there are a lot of things on Quackwatch that correctly point out downright frauds that should be avoided, I was sort of thinking about Dr Barrett's stance on acupuncture and wondering what you guys on SDN think.

In case you don't know what Quackwatch is, it is a website dedicated to exposing medical frauds and people who exploit the general public. I think a lot of the information is good.

The main website: http://www.quackwatch.org/

And the satellite website on acupuncture: http://www.acuwatch.org/

So I visited "Acupuncture Watch" and I was surprised by the papers he has listed on there. For the most part they argue that acupuncture is relatively useless.

Now I'm taken back by this, because I'm one of those people who think, "well if they've been doing it in China for 5,000 years then there's got to be something good about it"

So does anyone on SDN here practice acupuncture? And can you tell us what you think after reading the links?

Honestly my opinion is very bias because my dad does acupuncture for free -and every now and then we get a phone call to our house asking for free acupuncture. Further more, I have a grandfather who tells me he use to have violent sweats and breakouts due to malaria - but after visiting a Buddhist monk and receiving acupuncture from the monk, says to me that he hasn't had any trouble for years. (Allright that was a little bit to far for me, however my grandfather isn't all mentally there)

I did appreciate one of the papers on Quackwatch that pointed out that the National Institute of Health (NIH) did a poor job at examining acupuncture. The NIH panel wasn't extensive enough.

Stephen Barrett also points out that there are not any good studies showing that acupuncture works. And he also points out that there have been studies that show that acupuncture does nothing but harm the patient.

Now granted Barrett does promotes allopathic medicine over anything else in general - and I think in a very few cases he goes to far, but for the most part I think he's right on the ball. But on acupuncture...now I'm having some mixed feelings about his writings.


So what do you think? Is acupuncture just a fashion statement in America? Have I been brainwashed by the alternative medicine camp as Barrett argues?

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[zenman]

Most of the acupuncture taught in America is a watered downed version of the real stuff. I went to an acupuncture school once but found it too complex. However, at the same school I was also learning Zen Shiatsu and found it more to my liking. I went on to teach Zen Shiatsu at the same school so had free access to all the acupuncture I wanted. It's like anything else... sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. I did run into a Korean guy there who was a family trained acupuncturist and was having to go back to school in order to pass the USA exams. I had been suffering from tennis and golfer's elbows for over a year and he knocked out the pain in one elbow in one session and all pain in two. I did secretly agree with him to accept his own style rather than what he was currently learning in school.

Many of the students at the school were also former patients.

 

[CatsandCradles]

Most of the acupuncture taught in America is a watered downed version of the real stuff. I went to an acupuncture school once but found it too complex. However, at the same school I was also learning Zen Shiatsu and found it more to my liking. I went on to teach Zen Shiatsu at the same school so had free access to all the acupuncture I wanted. It's like anything else... sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. I did run into a Korean guy there who was a family trained acupuncturist and was having to go back to school in order to pass the USA exams. I had been suffering from tennis and golfer's elbows for over a year and he knocked out the pain in one elbow in one session and all pain in two. I did secretly agree with him to accept his own style rather than what he was currently learning in school.

Many of the students at the school were also former patients.

Please forgive my ignorance, but what is Zen Shiatsu?

You mentioned your "tennis elbow" and that's something I hear about a lot. Are you sure it wasn't a placebo or something? Barrett is arguing that acupunture is nothing more than a placebo affect.

And so I'm one confused cat.

Thanks

C&C

 

[NonTradMed]

Well, I don't think there's enough evidence to say that acupuncture does anything more than a placebo . However, I'm chinese and from what I've seen of my chinese relatives and my parents' chinese friends, it's pretty popular in China (as you probably guessed) and it's not just something that country bumpkins believe in, a lot of educated city dwellers, including my biologist mom, abides by it and has had it done on them and swears it works. So my conclusion is...there may be something there hasn't been any definitive proof one way or another. The quackwatch guy is gung ho about allo, he also somewhat disses on osteopaths saying people should be cautious about going to see a DO since they may ascribe to OMM.

 

[dilated]

The quackwatch guy is gung ho about allo, he also somewhat disses on osteopaths saying people should be cautious about going to see a DO since they may ascribe to OMM.

So? Some OMM is nonsensical garbage - look up the stuff on cranial manipulation, it's absurd. As for the rest, there is relatively little in the way of reliable research on it, so it's hard to say how useful it is one way or the other.

 

[CatsandCradles]

So? Some OMM is nonsensical garbage - look up the stuff on cranial manipulation, it's absurd. As for the rest, there is relatively little in the way of reliable research on it, so it's hard to say how useful it is one way or the other.

Honestly I don't like cranial manipulation - and I think Barrett is right to have a paper on it called: "The dubious aspects of osteopathy"

But then I get the feeling he picks one thing that very few DOs subsrcibe to and then uses it to paint the entire osteopathic funtion as something to be degraded and stepped upon.

Now to be fair he also attacks his fellow MDs who have written books that advocate CAMs.

In general, he's pointed out a lot of serious fraud and circumstances where the general public is being decieved - but placing acupunture under the catagory of fraud, I feel, is a very big claim on his part.

 

[the alchemist]

from personal experience, i'd have to say that acupuncture def works for ankle sprains. i couldn't do traditional drumming/dance or bow to my grandparents at lunar new year b/c i couldn't bend my ankles w/o pain. my drumming instructor was fed up with it and sent me to get acupuncture with another student while i was in korea. great stuff. when i was in grad school, i went to a seminar from a harvard prof who researched acupuncture and she showed that 1) the meridians (where they stick the needles) are on the nerve conduction pathway through analysis with EMG (which is the way doc's check nerve conduction speed, usually for ppl with carpal tunnel) and 2) that on functional MRI, the occipital lobe (visual cortex) lit up with both stimulation with light in the subject's eyes and with sticking a needle in the "eye" spot. i know a pm&R md that uses acupuncture in her practice as well. so i think that acupuncture does have its uses, it just gets called quackery when ppl claim that it cures everything from x, y, to z. there def is a scientific basis as the harvard researcher saw at least with the variables she was looking at (nerve conduction, visual stimulation)

 

[ask1288]

We actually had a lecture on Complementary and alternative medicine in med school (u of R), and i was pleasantly surprised. i don't recall the exact studies but there are a few studies showing the effectiveness of accupunture mainly in Pain, Nausea (post artum/post surgical) etc. Before dismissing everything CAM (aomplementary and alternative medicine) as quackery, it would be wise to investigate the origins of many of our modern drugs (tamoxifen for cancer prophylaxis-and the Mexican yam, Arsenic trioxide for chemotherapy-and Chinese herbal medicine, Digixin/Digitlis and foxglove etc)...ps a good book on the subject is The Shaman/s apprentice.

ps i have no vesteed interests in promoting CAM- i know a lot of it may be quackery, but some of it works...
Aunali

 

[McDoctor]

The main criticism of acupuncture seems to be that there is a lack of sufficient evidence of benefit. But the same can be said of alot of treatment strategies in allopathic medicine as well. For the longest time we treated LDL cholesterol with Statins before sufficient evidence existed that it resulted in a reduction of cardiovascular events.
Sometimes these practices turn out to be justified, other times not necessarily so as with hormone replacement therapy for reduction of cardiovascular risk (a common strategy for prescribed by allopaths/osteopaths for decades that turned out to cause for harm than good).

I suppose an alternative medicine advocate (something that I have no stake in personally) could easily post a site regarding some dubious aspects of allopathy and describe our once widespread use of COX-2 inhibitors, HRT, thalidomide during pregnancy, and innumerable other catastrophes. Maybe somebody should, if only to keep people like Dr. Barret a little more humble.

I don't think lack of evidence of benefit alone is a justified criticism, as the same can be applied to alot of common medical practices.

 

[CatsandCradles]

McDoctor,

I love your screen name and also your avatar! Then you also have "One Billion Cured"

Makes me want to go out and get breakfast from McDonnalds tommorow morning

 

[NonTradMed]

So? Some OMM is nonsensical garbage - look up the stuff on cranial manipulation, it's absurd. As for the rest, there is relatively little in the way of reliable research on it, so it's hard to say how useful it is one way or the other.

He hints that the entire profession of osteopathy as something questionable. He even says in his paper on the 'dubious aspect of osteopathy' to be careful when looking into a DO physician, because they 'may' practice OMM on you....like the entire profession practices some type of pseudo medicine. The paper essentially reeks of the arrogance that ostepathic physicians has had to endure from some MD old timers.

 

[McDoctor]

McDoctor,

I love your screen name and also your avatar! Then you also have "One Billion Cured"

Makes me want to go out and get breakfast from McDonnalds tommorow morning

I'm glad you appreciate it.
As our hospitals increasingly become obsessed with customer service and offering 15 minute guarantees, room service, and 10 kinds of HBO, the day is coming where we will soon be asking the inevitable question to our patients:
"...and would you like any fries with that?"

 

[zenman]

Please forgive my ignorance, but what is Zen Shiatsu?

It's a Japanese form of bodywork. I work those meridians that aren't there, LOL!

You mentioned your "tennis elbow" and that's something I hear about a lot. Are you sure it wasn't a placebo or something? Barrett is arguing that acupunture is nothing more than a placebo affect.

And so I'm one confused cat.

Thanks

C&C

Might have been placebo effect but why did the pain disappear completely in one elbow after a year of suffering during one session? Why not both at the same time? Much of what happens in allo is also placebo. That's why we need to know how to "invoke" it.

 

[zenman]

Please forgive my ignorance, but what is Zen Shiatsu?

It's a Japanese form of bodywork. I work those meridians that aren't there, LOL!

You mentioned your "tennis elbow" and that's something I hear about a lot. Are you sure it wasn't a placebo or something? Barrett is arguing that acupunture is nothing more than a placebo affect.

And so I'm one confused cat.

Thanks

C&C

Might have been placebo effect but why did the pain disappear completely in one elbow after a year of suffering during one session? Why not both at the same time? Much of what happens in allo is also placebo. That's why we need to know how to "invoke" it.

 

[zenman]

Sorry, double post. Where's the damn delete?

 

[Josh L.Ac.]

Most of the information about acupuncture is a little dated...I once had a layperson use the 1980 position paper against acupuncture as a rebuttal to 2005 study I used. I would consider Mr. Barrett a dogmatic skeptic and while there is some good information on his sites, they are obviously biased.


I do sort-of-know a person that is an advisor for quackwatch, and while he and I go round-and-round quite a bit, I respect his view on many things.




As for acupuncture, if you are interested, I would recommend Clinical Acupuncture: Scientific Basis as a good starting point into the world of acupuncture research.

Oh, and here's another gem - an interview (slightly dated) with the man that discovered the acupuncture-endorphin mechanism:

http://www.medicalacupuncture.org/acu_info/interviews/pomeranzart.html

 

[donnajo]

Please forgive my ignorance, but what is Zen Shiatsu?

You mentioned your "tennis elbow" and that's something I hear about a lot. Are you sure it wasn't a placebo or something? Barrett is arguing that acupunture is nothing more than a placebo affect.

And so I'm one confused cat.

Thanks

C&C

There's definitely no placebo effect to it. I had accupuncture done on one of my horses who had sustained a back injury. I'll be the first to admit that this post sound a bit quackish but within ten minutes of treatment I could pinch all the way down my horse's neck and back and he didn't flinch at all which was why I had called the guy in the first place. I really was amazed and no one will ever convince me there is any placebo effect to accupuncture.

 

[McDoctor]

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/46692

 

[CatsandCradles]

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/46692

Guess someone's getting a little bit greedy.