Academic OMFS

[Prehealthwhatever]

What are the career opportunities in academic OMFS?

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[Ivy.ch]

Most programs are always looking to hire their next attending. Some allow part-time gigs, but not most.

 

[DocMon16]

Most programs are always looking to hire their next attending. Some allow part-time gigs, but not most.

I agree for the most part. Our program is looking for even part time though, so it varies!

 

[nade0016]

As an "academic" what are you particularly looking to know. I can share my experience.

 

[Prehealthwhatever]

As an "academic" what are you particularly looking to know. I can share my experience.

How does one know they want to be involved in academics? What are the positions offered, what’re the responsibilities for each, which position allows for most flexibility with working in private practice? Sorry for being dumb and vague 😵‍💫

 

[dent2018istry]

I think the best way to have these questions answered is through residency where you can see the academic omfs different practice models because some are FT and others range in various degrees of PT

 

[nade0016]

How does one know they want to be involved in academics? What are the positions offered, what’re the responsibilities for each, which position allows for most flexibility with working in private practice? Sorry for being dumb and vague 😵‍💫

Where are you in your training? I can craft or summarize your questions based on that.

 

[1ATM]

As an "academic" what are you particularly looking to know. I can share my experience.

I would like your opinion on what junior faculty can expect for a starting salary in next couple of years? I know you mentioned previously you had a day in private practice once a week, is this a model you would recommend to look for? How long does it take to build a full scope practice? What you wish now you could have asked for when you were starting?

 

[nade0016]

I would like your opinion on what junior faculty can expect for a starting salary in next couple of years? I know you mentioned previously you had a day in private practice once a week, is this a model you would recommend to look for? How long does it take to build a full scope practice? What you wish now you could have asked for when you were starting?

OK, So I currently have a salary of $287,000 base with an augmentation from the OR and for being on call that totals another 100K. So depending on OR production and call frequency I bring in (pre-tax) between 360-390K per year. Then I also have a one day a week in PP with Pacific Dental Services. This add another 200-250K/year pre-tax. So, all told, pretax I am at between 560-740K per year pre-tax and this depends on many factors but last year it was 605K based on my tax return.

As for building the practice that will depend on what type of practice and the location you are at. Example, for hospital based academics it will take a few years if you rely on the hospital system to get you referral and depending on how active you are in soliciting referrals. My experience is hospitals are tougher to develop a practice and referral pattern unless you come into a situation where a surgeon just left and you step into their role. In dental schools the referral pattern is already built in but will generally be more bread and butter OMS. As well, in a SoD you will probably have (get to) teach pre-doc some as well as residents. I get great benefits, significant time off (when I am off, I still get paid) where as when you are in PP if you take a vacation you are not generating revenue. There are so many advantages to the academic route that, for me, those benefits out weighed the additional 200-300K of income. Plus I get to do big cases (what I trained for) and some prestige in the community. I am now involved in committees and task forces that I would never have imagined when I was in residency.

If you are purely concerned about money (loans, etc.) then don't go into academics. It is slower to develop an income stream and you really need patience to work in academics but the reward is awesome. I have been at my University for only about 8 years and the SoD is paying for me to go to grad school and take administration courses so I can pursue becoming a Dean or Hospital administrator. Its an area that would not be an option in PP.

Lastly, you asked if there was something I would have asked for when I initially started in academics. Not really, I have had good mentors that have wanted me to succeed and put me on the path to where I am now. So if you decide to go into academics, make sure you have a good mentor with your career and interests at heart. They should be trying to build you up and get you into their position.

We could also speak about the tenure versus non-tenure differences but that is a much more in depth discussion.

 

[Jaa_]

I also have a one day a week in PP with Pacific Dental Services.

Thank you for all of this information! I am early in my residency (2/6), intending to go the academic route. Do you find that it's difficult to come by a contract that allows you to work one day per week in PP? Or is this relatively common?

 

[ozzyomfs]

OK, So I currently have a salary of $287,000 base with an augmentation from the OR and for being on call that totals another 100K. So depending on OR production and call frequency I bring in (pre-tax) between 360-390K per year. Then I also have a one day a week in PP with Pacific Dental Services. This add another 200-250K/year pre-tax. So, all told, pretax I am at between 560-740K per year pre-tax and this depends on many factors but last year it was 605K based on my tax return.

As for building the practice that will depend on what type of practice and the location you are at. Example, for hospital based academics it will take a few years if you rely on the hospital system to get you referral and depending on how active you are in soliciting referrals. My experience is hospitals are tougher to develop a practice and referral pattern unless you come into a situation where a surgeon just left and you step into their role. In dental schools the referral pattern is already built in but will generally be more bread and butter OMS. As well, in a SoD you will probably have (get to) teach pre-doc some as well as residents. I get great benefits, significant time off (when I am off, I still get paid) where as when you are in PP if you take a vacation you are not generating revenue. There are so many advantages to the academic route that, for me, those benefits out weighed the additional 200-300K of income. Plus I get to do big cases (what I trained for) and some prestige in the community. I am now involved in committees and task forces that I would never have imagined when I was in residency.

If you are purely concerned about money (loans, etc.) then don't go into academics. It is slower to develop an income stream and you really need patience to work in academics but the reward is awesome. I have been at my University for only about 8 years and the SoD is paying for me to go to grad school and take administration courses so I can pursue becoming a Dean or Hospital administrator. Its an area that would not be an option in PP.

Lastly, you asked if there was something I would have asked for when I initially started in academics. Not really, I have had good mentors that have wanted me to succeed and put me on the path to where I am now. So if you decide to go into academics, make sure you have a good mentor with your career and interests at heart. They should be trying to build you up and get you into their position.

We could also speak about the tenure versus non-tenure differences but that is a much more in depth discussion.

Thank you for such a comprehensive answer. I am in a 4 year program and wanted to get your thoughts on if a non-MD OMFS was pursuing your route. Would lack of an MD present with a significant disadvantage?

 

[nade0016]

Thank you for such a comprehensive answer. I am in a 4 year program and wanted to get your thoughts on if a non-MD OMFS was pursuing your route. Would lack of an MD present with a significant disadvantage?

Should not present an issue unless you are performing significantly advanced procedures like microvascular reconstruction. The MD is mostly useful for fellowships.

 

[Silver_arrow]

Thank you for such a comprehensive answer. I am in a 4 year program and wanted to get your thoughts on if a non-MD OMFS was pursuing your route. Would lack of an MD present with a significant disadvantage?

https://www.aaoms.org/docs/education_research/edu_training/aaoms_faculty_resident_summary.pdf

The majority of full time attendings are single degree.

 

[nade0016]

Thank you for all of this information! I am early in my residency (2/6), intending to go the academic route. Do you find that it's difficult to come by a contract that allows you to work one day per week in PP? Or is this relatively common?

Nah, all contracts are usually negotiable. Some large University or hospital institutions will try to limit outside practice but they usually have an inside faculty practice. There is usually some option. It is rare for there to be no options other than work for the hospital but then you have a negotiation tool for increased salary. This year, OMS was the 6th highest paid medical/dental specialty, falling slightly behind vascular surgery. So if you get the old base salary only from a hospital you can ask what the vascular surgeons make and just ask for slightly less than that.

 

[1ATM]

Thank you very much, for your answers and everything you do for our specialty

 

[HockeyDocOMFS]

OK, So I currently have a salary of $287,000 base with an augmentation from the OR and for being on call that totals another 100K. So depending on OR production and call frequency I bring in (pre-tax) between 360-390K per year. Then I also have a one day a week in PP with Pacific Dental Services. This add another 200-250K/year pre-tax. So, all told, pretax I am at between 560-740K per year pre-tax and this depends on many factors but last year it was 605K based on my tax return.

You might be the first OMS who is actually open and honest about their salary - we truly appreciate it. I wish more practitioners and practices were more open and honest about the numbers. It has to come up at some point, and it only helps residents and students get a better grasp on what their future might look like.

 

[702]

Nah, all contracts are usually negotiable. Some large University or hospital institutions will try to limit outside practice but they usually have an inside faculty practice. There is usually some option. It is rare for there to be no options other than work for the hospital but then you have a negotiation tool for increased salary. This year, OMS was the 6th highest paid medical/dental specialty, falling slightly behind vascular surgery. So if you get the old base salary only from a hospital you can ask what the vascular surgeons make and just ask for slightly less than that.

Is the difference really only 200-300k between private practice and academics?

 

[nade0016]

Is the difference really only 200-300k between private practice and academics?

Depends where you are but thats my situation. It didn't start that way but I have worked to get to where I am. I have a feeling that 10 years from now those PP (VC and Corp gigs) are not going to paying out such huge annual salaries. The PP discussion is one of my favorites because the early adopters of the VC/Corp money think its great and they made out like bandits, but long term it will decimate the PP side of our profession. Just look at Dermatology. salaries decreasing, offices booked out for months/years and the "squeeze" being put on to see more patients for the same pay.

 

[jqrsDental]

Ya perio seems to lend itself in more of a private practice setting less VC and corps as we focus on more minute details and our literature surrounds soft tissues and implants rather than being as thinly spread over a huge amount of subjects like in Omfs that aren't used by most dentists completing omfs residency.

 

[Pablo Sanchez]

Ya perio seems to lend itself in more of a private practice setting less VC and corps as we focus on more minute details and our literature surrounds soft tissues and implants rather than being as thinly spread over a huge amount of subjects like in Omfs that aren't used by most dentists completing omfs residency.

This guy is the biggest OMFS troll on this site. Takes balls to post this after recently starting a post with “The days of OMFS are numbered” and seeing how the rest of that thread went 😂

 

[HockeyDocOMFS]

Ya perio seems to lend itself in more of a private practice setting less VC and corps as we focus on more minute details and our literature surrounds soft tissues and implants rather than being as thinly spread over a huge amount of subjects like in Omfs that aren't used by most dentists completing omfs residency.

Thank you for contributing absolutely nothing to a conversation involving OMFS, per usual

 

[Silver_arrow]

Ya perio seems to lend itself in more of a private practice setting less VC and corps as we focus on more minute details and our literature surrounds soft tissues and implants rather than being as thinly spread over a huge amount of subjects like in Omfs that aren't used by most dentists completing omfs residency.

In reality many new perio grads are unable to generate a good referral base and succeed in starting their own practices.
This is because general dentists are now placing simple implant cases. The cases that periodontists historically did.

The hard ones (implant surgery): those requiring sedation, full arch cases, medically compromised patients, high risk cases close to the nerve or sinus, or cases requiring complex bone grafting and large ridge augmentations - these will all go to omfs, as they always have been.

In order for periodontists to survive, they now must travel to gp offices. Yes many travel to 10 if not more offices. There would otherwise be no incentive for the gp to refer to them if they didn’t keep part of the production as a form of passive income.

 

[ozzyomfs]

Nevermind OMFS, perio is going put ENT out of business too. New technology of zapping those tonsils before they even develop.

 

[jqrsDental]

Corporation and dso salaries on the steep decline in 10 years as noted in this thread. If venture capitalists continue squeezing out private practice it's cheaper for patients later.

 

[702]

Corporation and dso salaries on the steep decline in 10 years as noted in this thread. If venture capitalists continue squeezing out private practice it's cheaper for patients later.

I completely disagree. Not cheaper for patients. Just more money to middlemen (insurance companies, and board members and stockholders of DSOs.)

 

[Life of Pablo]

Corporation and dso salaries on the steep decline in 10 years as noted in this thread. If venture capitalists continue squeezing out private practice it's cheaper for patients later.

I'm not saying this isn't true, but why would it be true? A lot of OMFS salary depends on supply/demand. There are in increasing number of general dentists (aka the referrals) graduating each year, but the number of OMFS graduating each year appears to be relatively the same. If DSOs/VCs want to attract OMFS to work for them, they have to be willing to pay them. Unless there is a large increase in OMFS that flood the market, I don't really see this being an issue.

 

[Ivy.ch]

I'm not saying this isn't true, but why would it be true? A lot of OMFS salary depends on supply/demand. There are in increasing number of general dentists (aka the referrals) graduating each year, but the number of OMFS graduating each year appears to be relatively the same. If DSOs/VCs want to attract OMFS to work for them, they have to be willing to pay them. Unless there is a large increase in OMFS that flood the market, I don't really see this being an issue.

I went to ClearChoice dinner last night. I was a little disappointed by their numbers. As they increase their portion of the market more and more, then have more and more leverage to reduce pay to surgeons. The cost of entry to practice is getting so high, a lot of grads have no choice but to go to DSO.

 

[jqrsDental]

I went to ClearChoice dinner last night. I was a little disappointed by their numbers. As they increase their portion of the market more and more, then have more and more leverage to reduce pay to surgeons. The cost of entry to practice is getting so high, a lot of grads have no choice but to go to DSO.

Yes I feel bad for anyone getting into omfs these next few years. All that work to make as much as perio. Dsos, triagenics, anesthesia. Scary world. If you love trauma or jaw surgery it is perfect otherwise perio is eating more and more implants. 😋

 

[HockeyDocOMFS]

Yes I feel bad for anyone getting into omfs these next few years. All that work to make as much as perio. Dsos, triagenics, anesthesia. Scary world. If you love trauma or jaw surgery it is perfect otherwise perio is eating more and more implants.

 

[Life of Pablo]

Yes I feel bad for anyone getting into omfs these next few years. All that work to make as much as perio. Dsos, triagenics, anesthesia. Scary world. If you love trauma or jaw surgery it is perfect otherwise perio is eating more and more implants. 😋

If I had to choose between giving up my dental license or doing periodontics, I might just give up my license.

 

[piratewow]

Yes I feel bad for anyone getting into omfs these next few years. All that work to make as much as perio. Dsos, triagenics, anesthesia. Scary world. If you love trauma or jaw surgery it is perfect otherwise perio is eating more and more implants. 😋

I have some classmates/upperclassmen that went into perio and their starting offers are nowhere close to OMFS, so not really sure what you're talking about? Additionally DSOs= screws over all of dentistry, perio included. Triagenics is nowhere close to FDA approval, it's at least 20+ yrs away, and that's if you actually believe it's applicable to humans and people are willing to try it. Anesthesia? So general dentists are going to hire DAs to sedate patients to do procedures and charge them the same amount of money if not more? If you told me I could get my wisdom teeth out for 2K with a GP + DA or 2k with an oral surgeon...nobody is gonna choose the 1st option.

 

[Allsmiles!]

Yes I feel bad for anyone getting into omfs these next few years. All that work to make as much as perio. Dsos, triagenics, anesthesia. Scary world. If you love trauma or jaw surgery it is perfect otherwise perio is eating more and more implants. 😋

Thanks for you concern…oh, wait, I’m sorry, I can’t find perio on the list!

	Here are the 15 specialties with the highes compensation in 2022:
	1. Neurosurgery - $788,313
	2. Thoracic surgery - $706,775
	3. Orthopaedic surgery - $624,043
	4. Plastic surgery - $571,373
	5. Vascular surgery - $557,632
	6. Oral and maxillofacial surgery - $556,642
	7. Radiation oncology - $547,026
	8. Cardiology - $544,201
	9. Urology - $505,745
	10. Radiology - $503,564
	11. Gastroenterology - $496,667
	12. Otolaryngology (ENT) - $488,536
	13. Dermatology - $468,509
	14. Anesthesiology - $462,506
	15. General surgery - $451,489

 

[702]

Thanks for you concern…oh, wait, I’m sorry, I can’t find pero on the list!

	Here are the 15 specialties with the highes compensation in 2022:
	1. Neurosurgery - $788,313
	2. Thoracic surgery - $706,775
	3. Orthopaedic surgery - $624,043
	4. Plastic surgery - $571,373
	5. Vascular surgery - $557,632
	6. Oral and maxillofacial surgery - $556,642
	7. Radiation oncology - $547,026
	8. Cardiology - $544,201
	9. Urology - $505,745
	10. Radiology - $503,564
	11. Gastroenterology - $496,667
	12. Otolaryngology (ENT) - $488,536
	13. Dermatology - $468,509
	14. Anesthesiology - $462,506
	15. General surgery - $451,489

Source?

 

[Rick Sorkin]

I'm just an extern. I just got back from the hospital. A guy came into the ED after getting chopped to bits by a gang with machetes. Limb + other extremities chopped off. Shoulder completely open. Half his face, ear, and maxilla (yes, bony maxilla was chopped off but still attached via soft tissue) hanging from his widely exposed skull. Ortho bros working on his right upper limb. Plastics his left. OMFS at the head putting his face back together. The patient goes into pulseless vtach two hours into surgery and codes. OMFS attending immediately jumps into chest compressions and switches back and forth with ortho. After 7 minutes of no pulse and an on and off battle the patient was stabilized. Talks of a thoracotomy and heart massage were had just before the pt was stabilized. These are real surgeons.

 

[Allsmiles!]

Source?

Don’t like using the google machine? 🧐 Here you go…have fun reading it…pretty comprehensive…you can go to page 9 if you want to see the info I provided:

https://press.doximity.com/reports/doximity-physician-compensation-report-2023.pdf

 

[D1Bound]

I don’t understand why people attempt to compare perio to OMS. It doesn’t make sense.

 

[Pablo Sanchez]

I don’t understand why people attempt to compare perio to OMS. It doesn’t make sense.

It’s like comparing endo to neurosurgery. Both are working on the nervous system 😂

 

[jqrsDental]

I don’t understand why people attempt to compare perio to OMS. It doesn’t make sense.

One is getting enroached immensely (with salaries dropping as ivychiu states) by aspen, clearchoice, nuvia, pacific dental while the other has not been hit by DSOs nearly as hard and is increasingly reported as the specialty with great attention to soft tissue and restorative driven implant placement by many dental schools and general dentists. Anterior implants especially.

 

[Jaa_]

One is getting enroached immensely (with salaries dropping as ivychiu states) by aspen, clearchoice, nuvia, pacific dental while the other has not been hit by DSOs nearly as hard and is increasingly reported as the specialty with great attention to soft tissue and restorative driven implant placement by many dental schools and general dentists. Anterior implants especially.

The purpose of this thread was to discuss academic OMFS (a great topic that doesn’t get enough discussion on this forum). You complained in your previous thread about people derailing the conversation and now you are doing just that.

 

[Allsmiles!]

One is getting enroached immensely (with salaries dropping as ivychiu states) by aspen, clearchoice, nuvia, pacific dental while the other has not been hit by DSOs nearly as hard and is increasingly reported as the specialty with great attention to soft tissue and restorative driven implant placement by many dental schools and general dentists. Anterior implants especially.

Honestly, why don’t you start a thread on perio topics. You constantly derail OMFS discussions to help yourself feel better about not being able to get into OMFS and your need to settle for perio. Just accept your new path…it’s a great path if you are interested in gum stuff! I 100% agree with @Jaa_ that the thread is about academic OMFS which is both interesting and important! So, can we respect each other enough to try and stick to the intended purpose of these threads and not use them as therapy sessions!

 

[Ramses07]

One is getting enroached immensely (with salaries dropping as ivychiu states) by aspen, clearchoice, nuvia, pacific dental while the other has not been hit by DSOs nearly as hard and is increasingly reported as the specialty with great attention to soft tissue and restorative driven implant placement by many dental schools and general dentists. Anterior implants especially.

Why hasn’t this dude gotten banned? Kinda feels like hes always trying to instigate.

 

[stealyoface]

One is getting enroached immensely (with salaries dropping as ivychiu states) by aspen, clearchoice, nuvia, pacific dental while the other has not been hit by DSOs nearly as hard and is increasingly reported as the specialty with great attention to soft tissue and restorative driven implant placement by many dental schools and general dentists. Anterior implants especially.

Plastic surgeons of the mouth right? This idea that perio is better with soft tissue is a bunch of malarkey peddled by periodontists to try to encroach on OMFS with implant referrals. Every OMFS has significant experience/training closing complex lacerations of the face in aesthetic areas. You really think we can’t handle the gingiva around an implant lol? You know what they say. If you repeat a lie enough times you start to believe it

 

[OrphanageCaretaker]

I don’t understand why people attempt to compare perio to OMS. It doesn’t make sense.

They couldn’t get a good cbse score

 

[carabelliscusp]

One is getting enroached immensely (with salaries dropping as ivychiu states) by aspen, clearchoice, nuvia, pacific dental while the other has not been hit by DSOs nearly as hard and is increasingly reported as the specialty with great attention to soft tissue and restorative driven implant placement by many dental schools and general dentists. Anterior implants especially.

What evidence is there that OMFS salaries are decreasing at DSOs?

 

[LegendaryPanda]

That’s it! I’m switching over to perio. What do I need to do to be a competitive applicant?

 

[lOuDMoUTH]

That’s it! I’m switching over to perio. What do I need to do to be a competitive applicant?

A body, two legs, two arms, and a head.....brain is optional

 

[Silver_arrow]

That’s it! I’m switching over to perio. What do I need to do to be a competitive applicant?

433279 (not including the accruing interest).

Paying for Dental School - Herman Ostrow School of Dentistry of USC

A dental education is a significant financial investment. The Herman Ostrow School of Dentistry of USC is committed to ensuring that all eligible students have access to the financial aid programs they need to achieve their educational goals.

dentistry.usc.edu

Sorry this was a low blow lol.

 

[D1Bound]

433279 (not including the accruing interest).

Paying for Dental School - Herman Ostrow School of Dentistry of USC

A dental education is a significant financial investment. The Herman Ostrow School of Dentistry of USC is committed to ensuring that all eligible students have access to the financial aid programs they need to achieve their educational goals.

dentistry.usc.edu

Sorry this was a low blow lol.

Why does it seem to me that dentistry is q complete scam for students? Why would anyone drop 400k to go to freaking perio training?

 

[yappy]

Thanks for you concern…oh, wait, I’m sorry, I can’t find perio on the list!

	Here are the 15 specialties with the highes compensation in 2022:
	1. Neurosurgery - $788,313
	2. Thoracic surgery - $706,775
	3. Orthopaedic surgery - $624,043
	4. Plastic surgery - $571,373
	5. Vascular surgery - $557,632
	6. Oral and maxillofacial surgery - $556,642
	7. Radiation oncology - $547,026
	8. Cardiology - $544,201
	9. Urology - $505,745
	10. Radiology - $503,564
	11. Gastroenterology - $496,667
	12. Otolaryngology (ENT) - $488,536
	13. Dermatology - $468,509
	14. Anesthesiology - $462,506
	15. General surgery - $451,489

Impressive numbers by OMS but does that survey include other dental specialties? It seems to be a "medical specialty" list generated by Fierce Healthcare Industry.

 

[Ryxndek]

Love the conversations everyone, but yes, let’s please try to keep things on topic about academic OMFS.