Academic Dishonesty: Seeking Advice / Insights

[riceanyone]

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[penguinsfan71]

I don't think two years is enough distance between your IA and your application. This wasn't a one time mistake, and it's going to be really tough to convince adcoms to take you over someone with similar stats and no IA's. If you are set on MD or DO, I think you'll need to take a few years off and give back to the community (peace corps, AmeriCorps, etc.) to show adcoms that you aren't that person anymore. But honestly, I'm not even sure that would be enough, because the optics of this are pretty bad. If you still want a job in the medical field, there are plenty of careers that still allow you to treat patients (RN, CNP, PA, etc.), and I would highly suggest avoiding Carib schools unless you want to risk going into hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt with nothing to show for it.

 

[KnightDoc]

The problem that you are up against is NOT that people don't deserve redemption, and that you cannot grow and learn from mistakes. It's just that admissions are VERY competitive, and there are plenty of people who bring similar attributes to the table without the baggage. All the introspection in the world will not change this.

As @penguinsfan71 said, over time you have more and more distance from the event, and the subsequent penance that you do becomes more and more meaningful. Right now, two years after a semester long cheating scheme that resulted in your being kicked out of school, there is nothing you can do to redeem yourself.

You really need the adcoms @gyngyn @LizzyM @Angus Avagadro @Goro @gonnif to weigh in with a definitive response, but to me, it looks like you are wasting your time and money applying in 2021. And no, I really don't think you will receive any credit at all for confessing after reaching out to the online company and determining that the evidence against you was overwhelming, and that there would be no escaping the consequences, even though others rolled the dice and fared better.

Let's face it, based on the fact that you thought it was relevant enough to include in your post, it sounds like you would have done the same if you knew that would be the outcome, rather than choosing to fall on your sword and potentially destroy your chance to become a doctor in an outpouring of remorse and contrition! The fact that you went forward with the MCAT and are still planning to apply next year shows you still don't fully grasp the gravity of your situation.

 

[gyngyn]

This is something that required significant forethought, planning and collaboration.
It's a lot like the MediCare fraud schemes that we see in the Medical Board reports.
That similarity alone would be enough to keep someone out of any medical school with an ounce of integrity.
That only leaves the Caribbean.

 

[bears1992]

I don’t have any advice I can give since the admissions committee (atleast at my school) isn’t very open about how they view applicants that were removed from their university BUT I do want to say that I’ve read a lot of these types of posts and you are one of the few people that owned up to their mistake. Most people on here will say “it wasn’t their fault” or “everybody was doing it” but you laid it out flat and I would hope an admissions committee would see that as maturity. I would advise almost everyone away from the Caribbean schools because they tend to have very low graduation rates, low match rates and generally limit your options to the less competitive specialties. Since you have fantastic MCAT and GPA, I’d say you’d have a very low chance of failing out of one of the top 4 and since it’s very possible that the Carribean might be your only option, you’d be the rare applicant that I would recommend the carribean route. Just keep in mind that your residency options will be limited.

Good luck!

 

[candbgirl]

Just a minor FYI( because this is a major mess) but the new A you received in Physics, does not replace the F you got with the IA. They are averaged. So it’s doubtful your GPA is back to a 3.9xx.
Are you returning to your former school or are you staying at the second school?

 

[KnightDoc]

Just a minor FYI( because this is a major mess) but the new A you received in Physics, does not replace the F you got with the IA. They are averaged. So it’s doubtful your GPA is back to a 3.9xx.
Are you returning to your former school or are you staying at the second school?

Based on details in post, OP graduated this past spring (spring 2019 was junior year). Given the fact that OP should have around 120 credits, the GPA wouldn't change much with or without the F.

 

[candbgirl]

I thought OP was kicked out at the start of Junior Year. Wow, tough to be someplace new as a senior. I wonder about LORs. Those may be tough to get .

 

[KnightDoc]

I thought OP was kicked out at the start of Junior Year. Wow, tough to be someplace new as a senior. I wonder about LORs. Those may be tough to get .

Yup! It looks like OP used a connection he made as a leader in student government to get the new school to accept him!

Based on his relationship with the Dean of Students, great grades, and as a campus leader, my feeling is LORs wouldn't be a problem. The problem is the nature of the offense, the extensive time over which it took place, and the fact that the punishment was not a slap on the wrist. I thought maybe it could be overcome with time, but, relying on @gyngyn's judgment and experience, that is probably not the case, even with a few awesome LORs.

 

[Goro]

Nice try at placing the blame on the system and others rather than you.

I can't sugar coat this, your medical career is over. I would reject you outright at my school. If not the career isn't actually over, then it is a decade-long state of deep stasis.

While your cheating may not define you as a person, actions have consequences. My teenagers get this.

Here's what you're dealing with; Adcoms will look at you and ask:
* Is this the type of person we want in our Class?
* Why accept this kid when we have some many other candidates who didn't do this???"

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

Do residency PDs look at academic history? If not, only option is Caribbean.

 

[riceanyone]

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[riceanyone]

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[Goro]

You were making a false equivalence that somehow the people who won't give you a second chance, (as if you are owed a second chance,) are as bad as the people who are in the mess you are in.

 

[riceanyone]

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[riceanyone]

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[riceanyone]

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[Medisaint]

Stop there. I was feeling you until I read this. This comes across as ignorant and presumptuous. First, you are an ER scribe, not a doctor--drawing from your limited shadowing experiences to lecture medical professionals is silly. Second, you draw a false equivalency between being denied admission to medical school and being harmed as a patient through lack of empathy. This sounds very entitled. Remember, nobody owes you a medical education.

You sound intelligent, ambitious and resourceful. I imagine these traits were as instrumental to your sophisticated, organized cheating scheme as they were to landing on your feet after getting kicked out. While I have no doubt you regret your decision to cheat, I don't think there is an expedited road to salvation that falls within the traditional pre-med timeline. How can an admissions committee look at your record and distinguish between mature, personal growth and damage control from a capable individual? I agree with other posters that time + a consistent track record is the only thing that can make this blemish fade. i.e. you may need to take a few years off. I will say you should keep in touch with your former dean. If you continue to work with her she may be able to write a compelling letter that shows longitudinal growth.

Caribbean schools are a possibility if you are willing to play 3/6 Russian Roulette with the match cycle 4 years down the road. I suspect your chances would be considerably higher than the average US IMG given as you've demonstrated an ability to rise to the top despite facing setbacks.

 

[riceanyone]

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[CliveStaples]

The Caribbean is your most realistic option of practicing medicine in the USA. I would not recommend pursuing a US allopathic education as I expect it would waste your time and money.

 

[riceanyone]

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[KnightDoc]

I have a follow-up question that the OP might very well be thinking himself (if not, I'm thinking it for him!). As observed by @Medisaint, OP is quite resourceful, and skilled at performing due diligence. If medicine doesn't work out, he might have a future in mergers and acquisitions on Wall Street.

Is it really true that a school would not report this when it sent a transcript to AMCAS, given how he was "essentially kicked out"? If so, asssuming his LOR writers want to help him and are smart enough not to reference the incident, could OP get away with not reporting the IA, given that the alternative is likely just never going to a US medical school? It seems kind of crazy that something like could happen with no flag on a transcript other than the F. @Goro @gyngyn @LizzyM @Angus Avagadro @gonnif ? Don't schools have an ethical, or legal, obligation to report? If not, do you guys really have the time and resources to put 2+2 together with respect to the sudden F, and then switching schools?

 

[candbgirl]

It would be interesting to know what the official transcript says about his transfer with 160 hours at the end of Junior year . We know he got a “clean” transcript for his transfer through his relationship with the Dean or whoever it was. So I guess the new school has no idea of the situation. The questions would have to come from a reviewer at each school of his official transcript if it really doesn’t have any indication that he was dismissed from school. But are you really suggesting he not indicate he has this IA ? We all know that at some point schools do due diligence and it would be awful to have his acceptance rescinded or be kicked out later on in school or after graduation! There is no easy way out of this mess. OP needs to take his time, review his options and proceed very carefully

 

[riceanyone]

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[KnightDoc]

It would be interesting to know what the official transcript says about his transfer with 160 hours at the end of Junior year . We know he got a “clean” transcript for his transfer through his relationship with the Dean or whoever it was. So I guess the new school has no idea of the situation. The questions would have to come from a reviewer at each school of his official transcript if it really doesn’t have any indication that he was dismissed from school. But are you really suggesting he not indicate he has this IA ? We all know that at some point schools do due diligence and it would be awful to have his acceptance rescinded or be kicked out later on in school or after graduation! There is no easy way out of this mess. OP needs to take his time, review his options and proceed very carefully

No, I'm suggesting that he was pretty careful in investigating the evidence that the online company had before he confessed, and investigating what the transcript would and wouldn't show, and now, through our forum, how adcoms would view his IA disclosure. What do you think he might do with this information?

Again, I would find it beyond unbelievable if an academic institution would in fact dismiss a student for academic dishonesty and not disclose that fact to another academic institution requesting the transcript. It's important to note School #1 did not fail to disclose to School #2 -- OP received an exception whereby he was able to be accepted without transcripts. I am explicitly asking what I have a strong feeling he is wondering -- other than the risk he will be found out later, that he would weigh against the possibility of being accepted now with the disclosure, could he actually get away with failing to disclose now? (I.e., would the transcript he already previewed really be the extent of the school's disclosure -- the F with no other information. And, would the schools look into that circumstance with no other disclosure from the applicant?)

 

[candbgirl]

All good questions and I don’t have any answers and I doubt we’ll ever have answers. I thought the investigating of what information could be culled from the online company records was very interesting too.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

No, I'm suggesting that he was pretty careful in investigating the evidence that the online company had before he confessed, and investigating what the transcript would and wouldn't show, and now, through our forum, how adcoms would view his IA disclosure. What do you think he might do with this information?

Again, I would find it beyond unbelievable if an academic institution would in fact dismiss a student for academic dishonesty and not disclose that fact to another academic institution requesting the transcript. It's important to note School #1 did not fail to disclose to School #2 -- OP received an exception whereby he was able to be accepted without transcripts. I am explicitly asking what I have a strong feeling he is wondering -- other than the risk he will be found out later, that he would weigh against the possibility of being accepted now with the disclosure, could he actually get away with failing to disclose now? (I.e., would the transcript he already previewed really be the extent of the school's disclosure -- the F with no other information. And, would the schools look into that circumstance with no other disclosure from the applicant?)

Do you really want to go into medicine? You will be an excellent lawyer!

 

[Osteosaur]

Just be glad you got into another school. I'm sorry for your situation, and glad you came clean, but there are plenty of qualified people without your baggage.

It makes me mad to think some otherwise wonderful person, whose MCAT or GPA might be a bit weak, would lose a seat to someone like you. This wasn't a one-time screw-up. You knew you did wrong.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

The Caribbean is your most realistic option of practicing medicine in the USA. I would not recommend pursuing a US allopathic education as I expect it would waste your time and money.

I already stated this earlier. You can also try the new Australian school.

 

[riceanyone]

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[riceanyone]

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[KnightDoc]

With all due respect, while I have been following you all along, and you have provided way more detail than a typical person in your situation does, what you have just said just doesn't ring true.

Are you really saying that after being told that the company had NOTHING directly tying you to the scheme, you confessed anyway because it was the right thing to do, AND had a determination by the committee that the call and your subsequent confession were part of a "complex cover-up strategy," even though the results of the call were that you had no need to cover up? Sorry, but that just doesn't ring true!!!

 

[KnightDoc]

I guess then my question is whether those letters have to be specifically requested to be provided, or if they are provided automatically when a transcript is sent?

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

With all due respect, while I have been following you all along, and you have provided way more detail than a typical person in your situation does, what you have just said just doesn't ring true.

Are you really saying that after being told that the company had NOTHING directly tying you to the scheme, you confessed anyway because it was the right this to do, AND had a determination by the committee that the call and your subsequent confession were part of a "complex cover-up strategy," even though the results of the call were that you had no need to cover up? Sorry, but that just doesn't ring true!!!

May be OP suddenly had a revelation and decided to come clean. Let's get back the OP's intention to come clean on SDN, what are his chances of US MD/DO admission. Consensus is extremely low. I see Caribbean from California

 

[Osminog]

After taking a gap year or two, I think you would get at least a couple of interviews if you applied broadly to DO schools (if your essays are polished, your LoRs are strong, your IA reflection is well-composed and thoughtful, etc.).

IA’s serve as a red flag and seriously damage one’s chances of medical school admission... but I suspect that some of the responses to these sorts of situations on SDN may lean in the direction of hyperbole. There’s a common perception that students with IA’s are virtually never accepted into US medical schools. It’s difficult to assess whether this perception is valid or not, because there’s no publicly available data relating to the admission of students with IA’s, and because admitted students with IA’s generally wouldn’t want to disclose the fact that they had an IA in their day-to-day communications. Surely, there are some admission staff (including gyngyn and Goro, apparently) who make sure to systematically reject all applicants with academics-related IA’s—but that isn’t necessarily the case at every institution.

This post sparked my curiosity, so I decided to venture to Premeddit. There, I found quite a few anonymous testimonials from students with academics-related IA’s who received multiple US MD and/or DO interviews and at least one acceptance. Some of them mention the discouraging feedback they received when they were seeking advice on SDN. Obviously, every situation is different, so their success isn’t a guarantee of success for you, but it’s just something to read and think about.

 

[riceanyone]

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[mwsapphire]

Wait, were these just normal hw assignemtns? At my school, hw was always open note and open internet? How did you cheat on HW? Or were these like, grades problem sets where outside help was not allowed?

 

[riceanyone]

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[mwsapphire]

Oh you were told not to get assistance. Oh okay sorry I scanned it quickly. I never had those in college so I kinda panicked, thinking that I may have cheated.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

but I suspect that some of the responses to these sorts of situations on SDN may lean in the direction of hyperbole.

only some of the responses?

 

[penguinsfan71]

Oh you were told not to get assistance. Oh okay sorry I scanned it quickly. I never had those in college so I kinda panicked, thinking that I may have cheated.

It's not that OP just got "assistance". My understanding is that for each assignment one student would complete and submit it. After submission, the software showed the student the correct answers, and everyone else in the group would then log into that student's account to see them. So they weren't just helping each other out, they were basically sharing answer keys.

 

[penguinsfan71]

After taking a gap year or two, I think you would get at least a couple of interviews if you applied broadly to DO schools (if your essays are polished, your LoRs are strong, your IA reflection is well-composed and thoughtful, etc.).

DO schools are more forgiving of low stats, but they still have their own standards of integrity. DO schools receive plenty of applicants without IA's.

There’s a common perception that students with IA’s are virtually never accepted into US medical schools.

That is true, but most of those IA's are a forgotten citation or cheating on a single homework assignment. This was a semester long occurrence and involves the bad optics of the "cover-up". Who knows, OP might still have a chance somewhere, but I think it'll take longer than a gap year or two.

 

[deleted1054719]

It changes nothing. The advice has been pretty consistent and nothing will mitigate the basic facts of the case. Your US MD/DO medical career is over for a very long time. 2019 was mere months ago and the allegations are one of the most serious kinds of cheating possible. In your shoes, I would personally pursue a different career. The option of the Caribbean is not a bad one as well because you appear to be an eloquent and intelligent person who would likely do much better than the average Caribbean student. Applying to a state-side school would simply be a waste of money and time.

 

[KnightDoc]

It's shocking that you think that is relevant!

You think it makes any difference at all that you adjusted for the randomized numbers by using the roadmap provided by the scheme to insert the correct numbers in your responses? That because you recognized that everyone didn't have the same numbers, so you had the presence of mind to realize that you couldn't copy answers verbatim and had to use the provided "basic steps, concepts, and equations" to calculate your own numbers, that "maybe" makes what you did a little less serious????

The fact that you aren't too embarrassed to post that is pretty remarkable. In fact, it's making me wonder if this whole thread isn't an elaborate troll! If so, I'm a little embarrassed that it took me so long to catch on, and that the Dean of Students facilitating your move to another school, on the down low with no transcript, or that the school wouldn't highlight this in big bold red characters on your transcript, didn't set off any alarms for anyone. Or, people not questioning why a 3.9 GPA campus leader would risk everything for Physics 2.

Kudos to you, my friend!!!! Well played. And thank you for not stopping until I got a clue!!!

 

[riceanyone]

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[CliveStaples]

Not all IAs are made equal, this much is certain. I have to be honest, yours is more egregious than most. I do not want you to be lulled into a false sense of hope because of isolated encounters where people have found success with an IA. While your only hope is to come totally clean about the infraction and to show contrition and reform, I fear that the nature of this IA will be nearly impossible to overcome after hearing the full story.

The question that has to be answered by each ADCOM member is "would I be comfortable allowing this person to be my child's pediatrician one day over one of the other qualified applicants?" If the answer is no, then how are they going to let that happen to anybody else in their community?

Now, I don't say all of this in the hopes of discouraging you or lording over you some sense of superiority. No skin off my back; I'm done with the rat race. I actually do want the best for you and I do not think that spending hundreds of dollars applying to US medical schools is going to offer you a high enough probability of acceptance to justify the price. I think it would take a significant amount of "reinventing yourself" in order to overcome the questions I would have about your application. Two years in the Peace Corps? Maybe then I'd think you're actually a different person from the one that earned this IA. But it would take that level of putting yourself 'second' so to speak to make up for the selfishness displayed by your situation.

Best wishes.

 

[Shotapp]

It's shocking that you think that is relevant!

You think it makes any difference at all that you adjusted for the randomized numbers by using the roadmap provided by the scheme to insert the correct numbers in your responses? That because you recognized that everyone didn't have the same numbers, so you had the presence of mind to realize that you couldn't copy answers verbatim and had to use the provided "basic steps, concepts, and equations" to calculate your own numbers, that "maybe" makes what you did a little less serious????

The fact that you aren't too embarrassed to post that is pretty remarkable. In fact, it's making me wonder if this whole thread isn't an elaborate troll! If so, I'm a little embarrassed that it took me so long to catch on, and that the Dean of Students facilitating your move to another school, on the down low with no transcript, or that the school wouldn't highlight this in big bold red characters on your transcript, didn't set off any alarms for anyone. Or, people not questioning why a 3.9 GPA campus leader would risk everything for Physics 2.

Kudos to you, my friend!!!! Well played. And thank you for not stopping until I got a clue!!!

OP must have deleted that post (can't find it). Since he/she said that, I take back what I said about applying just to see if any schools bite. Their post doesn't sound like they have matured or learned from the erroneous decisions that made 2 years ago.

 

[KnightDoc]

OP must have deleted that post (can't find it). Since he/she said that, I take back what I said about applying just to see if any schools bite. Their post doesn't sound like they have matured or learned from the erroneous decisions that made 2 years ago.

Yup. Although I'm telling you, the post was so over the top that I can't help but think the whole thing is so outrageous that it can't be true.

Would a legit school really not report this on a transcript? Under these circumstances, would a legit dean of students really help a student transfer to a school where she was formerly associated without a transcript (and, logically, disclosure)? Would a legit school accept him immediately after the IA with disclosure?

Doesn't the whole thing about not having graduated despite having 160 credits seem a little unbelievable? And needing to go to another school to pick up another 40 credits to be able to graduate? Most people I know graduate with between 120-140. Have you ever heard of anyone NEEDING 40 on top of 160, after an IA????

Would a legit poster, who spent so much time providing so much detail, coming here to ask if an application next year would be viable, really think that it might make a difference that answers weren't copied verbatim because they couldn't be, since numbers were randomly changed?

TBH, I feel like a frog in boiling water, and it didn't hit me until the deleted post. But, going back, does any of it really make sense????? I'm convinced he just laid highly detailed superfluous facts, one on top of another and each more ridiculous than the next, waiting for someone to call BS, after which he withdrew.

 

[mwsapphire]

Yup. Although I'm telling you, the post was so over the top that I can't help but think the whole thing is so outrageous that it can't be true.

Would a legit school really not report this on a transcript? Under these circumstances, would a legit dean of students really help a student transfer to a school where she was formerly associated without a transcript (and, logically, disclosure)? Would a legit school accept him immediately after the IA with disclosure?

Doesn't the whole thing about not having graduated despite having 160 credits seem a little unbelievable? And needing to go to another school to pick up another 40 credits to be able to graduate? Most people I know graduate with between 120-140. Have you ever heard of anyone NEEDING 40 on top of 160, after an IA????

Would a legit poster, who spent so much time providing so much detail, coming here to ask if an application next year would be viable, really think that it might make a difference that answers weren't copied verbatim because they couldn't be, since numbers were randomly changed?

TBH, I feel like a frog in boiling water, and it didn't hit me until the deleted post. But, going back, does any of it really make sense????? I'm convinced he just laid highly detailed superfluous facts, one on top of another and each more ridiculous than the next, waiting for someone to call BS, after which he withdrew.

Nah, bc while graded problem sets are a big deal and are basically take home tests, a real egregious would be having an in person exam meddled eith. I once heard on reddit of somebody getting a prof's login so he could steal answers to exams. THAT was egregious. This one is JUST believable.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

Yup. Although I'm telling you, the post was so over the top that I can't help but think the whole thing is so outrageous that it can't be true.

Would a legit school really not report this on a transcript? Under these circumstances, would a legit dean of students really help a student transfer to a school where she was formerly associated without a transcript (and, logically, disclosure)? Would a legit school accept him immediately after the IA with disclosure?

Doesn't the whole thing about not having graduated despite having 160 credits seem a little unbelievable? And needing to go to another school to pick up another 40 credits to be able to graduate? Most people I know graduate with between 120-140. Have you ever heard of anyone NEEDING 40 on top of 160, after an IA????

Would a legit poster, who spent so much time providing so much detail, coming here to ask if an application next year would be viable, really think that it might make a difference that answers weren't copied verbatim because they couldn't be, since numbers were randomly changed?

TBH, I feel like a frog in boiling water, and it didn't hit me until the deleted post. But, going back, does any of it really make sense????? I'm convinced he just laid highly detailed superfluous facts, one on top of another and each more ridiculous than the next, waiting for someone to call BS, after which he withdrew.

This is a conspiracy to divert you from MCAT prep