AAEM-PG Files Suit Against Envision Healthcare

[Alvarez13]

AAEM-PG Files Suit Against Envision Healthcare Alleging the Illegal Corporate Practice of Medicine | AAEM Physician Group

www.aaemphysiciangroup.com

Doctors sue Envision Healthcare, say firm shouldn’t run California ERs

The suit says California law bars corporations from practicing medicine. Many states have similar laws but haven’t invoked them.

www.nbcnews.com

AAEM-PG alleges that Envision, as a lay entity owned by the private equity firm Kravis, Kohlberg and Roberts, is in violation of the CA prohibitions on lay ownership of medical practices as embodied in the Business and Professions Code §§ 2400 and 2052.

Issues at stake include lay influence over the patient-physician relationship, as well as control of the fees charged, prohibited remuneration for referrals, and unfair restraint of the practice of a profession. AAEMPG and its parent organization, the American Academy of Emergency Medicine, believes this arrangement is not in the public interest.

AAEM advocates that physician groups comprised of local physician owners provide the highest level of care and are most invested in the long-term success of their hospital partners and community

With all the negatives in Emergency Medicine these past 2 years and a bleak future, this was kind of a nice Xmas present and I will be renewing my membership for another year.

Please consider rerouting your ACEP fees to AAEM as they've been fighting hard for what we all ultimately want for a long time. Especially if Envision is giving you CME funds for ACEP membership.

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Members don't see this ad.

 

[EctopicFetus]

AAEM-PG Files Suit Against Envision Healthcare Alleging the Illegal Corporate Practice of Medicine | AAEM Physician Group

www.aaemphysiciangroup.com

Doctors sue Envision Healthcare, say firm shouldn’t run California ERs

The suit says California law bars corporations from practicing medicine. Many states have similar laws but haven’t invoked them.

www.nbcnews.com

With all the negatives in Emergency Medicine these past 2 years and a bleak future, this was kind of a nice Xmas present and I will be renewing my membership for another year.

Please consider rerouting your ACEP fees to AAEM as they've been fighting hard for what we all ultimately want for a long time. Especially if Envision is giving you CME funds for ACEP membership.

Use your envision cme money to join AAEM and if not pay for the scientific assembly. Donations needed as well. Lawyers are not working for free.

 

[Atlas Shrugged]

I donated.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN

 

[AlmostAnMD]

Saw this and was amazed. It really is the best Christmas present. If any organization can do anything to ever get rid of PE out of healthcare, it's AAEM

*raises hand to lend energy to AAEM's spirit bomb attack

 

[RustedFox]

Saw this and was amazed. It really is the best Christmas present. If any organization can do anything to ever get rid of PE out of healthcare, it's AAEM

*raises hand to lend energy to AAEM's spirit bomb attack

KAAAA-MEEEE-HAAAAAAAAAA

 

[GonnaBeADoc2222]

Not to be a Christmas Grinch, but does it matter? You get rid of Envision, cool. Then what? You're hospital employed? After switching from TH to hospital employed recently, let me tell you, it's just another corporation having complete control over you. There's projections that by 2030, all of the US will be part of 1 of about 10 major hospital corporations.

 

[bravotwozero]

Not to be a Christmas Grinch, but does it matter? You get rid of Envision, cool. Then what? You're hospital employed? After switching from TH to hospital employed recently, let me tell you, it's just another corporation having complete control over you. There's projections that by 2030, all of the US will be part of 1 of about 10 major hospital corporations.

Then we’ll sue the hospitals if they don’t play ball. This is America dammit

 

[Ho0v-man]

 

[RustedFox]

How did you do that?
How did you make this meme so fast?

 

[Ho0v-man]

How did you do that?
How did you make this meme so fast?

 

[s/p epilepticus]

View attachment 347095

What's his SDN "Reaction score"?

 

[Zebra Hunter]

Donated

 

[Siggy]

Not to be a Christmas Grinch, but does it matter? You get rid of Envision, cool. Then what? You're hospital employed? After switching from TH to hospital employed recently, let me tell you, it's just another corporation having complete control over you. There's projections that by 2030, all of the US will be part of 1 of about 10 major hospital corporations.

That's not allowed in California under the board's interpretation of the corporate practice of medicine. There's a reason that Kaiser doesn't hire their physicians directly (they contract with the Permanente medical groups).

P&S Practice Information | MBC

www.mbc.ca.gov

 

[turkeyjerky]

Not to be a Christmas Grinch, but does it matter? You get rid of Envision, cool. Then what? You're hospital employed? After switching from TH to hospital employed recently, let me tell you, it's just another corporation having complete control over you. There's projections that by 2030, all of the US will be part of 1 of about 10 major hospital corporations.

--You still have due process if hospital employed.
--Hospitals have at least some interest in providing quality care rather than the bare minimum necessary to keep the contract.
--Less likely to deal with RVU based shenanigans

Although, to a large extent you are right.

 

[turkeyjerky]

So what actualy happens if AAEM-PG prevails in this suit? Didn't the group already transition to Envision employement? (I think they were advertising positions to start in Nov/Oct of this year). Would they get their group/contract back, or would the hospital simply be forced to reopen bidding on the contract, letting Vituity or EMA swoop in.

 

[GonnaBeADoc2222]

--You still have due process if hospital employed.
--Hospitals have at least some interest in providing quality care rather than the bare minimum necessary to keep the contract.
--Less likely to deal with RVU based shenanigans

Although, to a large extent you are right.

Take a look at your contract. Is there a "termination without cause" clause? If so, there goes your due process.

 

[DoctwoB]

As others have mentioned, states like California prohibit direct hospital employment. Meaning that doctors form a large physician group A la Permanente medical group, Palo Alto Foundation medical group, Mercy medical group, etc. These are giant multispecialty doc groups which then negotiate with the corporate side (Kaiser and Sutter, respectively) to provide physician services. Usually that will involve some degree of protection for the docs after a degree of time, whether it is partnership in the medical group, due process, etc.

 

[turkeyjerky]

Take a look at your contract. Is there a "termination without cause" clause? If so, there goes your due process.

Hate to belabor this too much and derail this thread, but in my hospital-employed contracts, the no cause termination has typically had a 90 day notice period. To be honest, I haven't been employed by a CMG, but I have contracted with a few as an IC and as I recall there was no notice period, leading to the situation where you could be taken off the schedule immediately.

 

[vm26]

As others have mentioned, states like California prohibit direct hospital employment. Meaning that doctors form a large physician group A la Permanente medical group, Palo Alto Foundation medical group, Mercy medical group, etc. These are giant multispecialty doc groups which then negotiate with the corporate side (Kaiser and Sutter, respectively) to provide physician services. Usually that will involve some degree of protection for the docs after a degree of time, whether it is partnership in the medical group, due process, etc.

Worked for Sutter Medical Foundation doing per diem/supplemental work as a Rad a few years back. Very solid compensation/work load, unlike P/E

 

[Rekt]

Hate to belabor this too much and derail this thread, but in my hospital-employed contracts, the no cause termination has typically had a 90 day notice period. To be honest, I haven't been employed by a CMG, but I have contracted with a few as an IC and as I recall there was no notice period, leading to the situation where you could be taken off the schedule immediately.

Interviewing and the contracts I've seen for hospital employed have all had a 90 day notice. Most of the time hospital contracts I feel like are pretty much the same ones they give everyone. Way too lazy to rewrite most of it to make it specialty specific.

There's absolutely no way around it, CMGs are by far the worst employment model for physicians.

 

[RustedFox]

If only GeneralVeers were here, he'd have some really good input on this topic...

 

[EctopicFetus]

Hospitals would fall under the CPOM issue as well. It might be large multi specialty practices but will be run by docs. Also, smaller hospitals would likely go back to SDGs. Lastly, the threat of a CMG takeover wouldn’t loom over SDG docs. More ability to negotiate with a hospital. Also many multi specialty practices have little benefit in growth.

 

[Angry Birds]

CMG's are the devil and should be fought tooth and nail.
I've been employed by the hospital and it's much better.

 

[Apollyon]

If only GeneralVeers were here, he'd have some really good input on this topic...

I'm not so sure of that.

 

[Alvarez13]

If only GeneralVeers were here, he'd have some really good input on this topic...

I've been gone for a bit, where is he? Slamming mezcal on a beach off grid?

 

[RustedFox]

I've been gone for a bit, where is he? Slamming mezcal on a beach off grid?

He got the banhammer for speaking his mind, with the excuse given that his discussion "wasn't about emergency medicine."

But hey; we have a whole thread for Grateful Dead related items.

 

[Apollyon]

He got the banhammer for speaking his mind, with the excuse given that his discussion "wasn't about emergency medicine."

But hey; we have a whole thread for Grateful Dead related items.

Dude, serious? He was given MANY chances, and would not stop. He was NOT an "innocent victim of the system". I'm nobody, but, I would ask you to stop this "false narrative". He's gone, and he ain't comin' back.

 

[The Knife & Gun Club]

He got the banhammer for speaking his mind, with the excuse given that his discussion "wasn't about emergency medicine."

But hey; we have a whole thread for Grateful Dead related items.

Yea I appreciated his input on certain threads but he was a key player in making every thread devolve into mudslinging political chaos.

Tons of people here have view points far different mine which I find fascinating. But he all too often shoe-horned his beliefs into discussions where the rest of us were just trying to pick echothers brains or have a good time.

My person opinion, as someone who came along well after Veers was an established presence.

 

[thegenius]

Dude, serious? He was given MANY chances, and would not stop. He was NOT an "innocent victim of the system". I'm nobody, but, I would ask you to stop this "false narrative". He's gone, and he ain't comin' back.

That’s actually (almost) a Grateful Dead song and lyric. Well done!

 

[thegenius]

Back to the original topic. Maybe I’ll donate $100 to AAEM too. This is good stuff

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

He got the banhammer for speaking his mind, with the excuse given that his discussion "wasn't about emergency medicine."

But hey; we have a whole thread for Grateful Dead related items.

Actually he got the banhammer for repeatedly posting political and borderline-to-flagrantly anti-science posts in various threads. He was given significantly more leeway than newer members would have gotten and was given many opportunities to refrain from continuing to drive threads off topic, and he ignored all of those opportunities. Just because you don’t see all the discussion that happens behind the scenes before such a large action is taken doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen. We don’t ban members on a whim.

 

[GassYous]

He's not even here anymore and he's still derailing this thread!

 

[DocEspana]

He's not even here anymore and he's still derailing this thread!

thats expert level trolling there. Distance trolling.

 

[DocEspana]

so I think I speak on behalf of everyone when I say..... if we all give AAEM dues +/- additional donations they will at least throw a nice party* for all of us at the yearly convention. Because that's the only part of ACEP I'd miss.

*non-sponsored, unless an ultrasound device or something wants to kick in some money

 

[hundreddaysoff]

Nice explainer in EM News:

News: AAEM Sues Envision for Corporate Practice of Medicine : Emergency Medicine News

An abstract is unavailable.

journals.lww.com

 

[DocHoliday84]

I am all about this. Just got done donating. Would be amazing if they win. I think it would get a lot of press on this issue and California is a Bellwether so could end up eventually having impact in other states as well.