A strange certification question that maybe someone can answer...

[DeadCactus]

I was just curious. Say someone is in one ofthe duel degree program (MD/PhD being a particularly good example due to it's length).

They get through the first two years of Med School and begin the part of their education where they work on the second degree. They decide they really wish they could get some patient contact in while taking the break from Med School and think "Hey, maybe some part-time work as a paramedic would scratch my itch." [Ignoring any issues of having enough time to do so.]

At this point where would they stand on the path to certification/licensure as an EMT-P? Obviously they already have the education in anatomy, pharmacology, etc. Would they still take the entire course and simply have a very easy time with the subjects they covered or would they be able to take a much shorter path to EMT-P?

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[DropkickMurphy]

At this point where would they stand on the path to certification/licensure as an EMT-P?

The same as any other student. You MIGHT get a break from the A+P course. The thing that is going to bite you in the ass and prevent you from pulling this off is the clinical hours.....normally several hundred to over a thousand. Basically you'll have a year and a half to work through the paramedic program while doing your medical school classes. Also many, probably most, paramedic programs that are worth going through are affiliated with community colleges so they would demand a copy of your medical school transcripts (see below) and even if the instructor (who if he is smart would not admit you because you won't have time to do both med school and medic school; not to mention you obviously have no loyalty to EMS and we are quite frankly not around just so you can "scratch your itch") let you in, the classes are often during the day which I would imagine would interfere with your other commitments.

Also, just a word of warning: We had a med student try for his EMT-P through a program I used to teach for. He had to turn in an official copy of his transcripts and when the dean found out (the records office notified him of the rather strange request that transcripts be sent to a community college), he got his ass chewed. Not exactly something I would want from a man who could screw my career up.....certainly not just because I felt the need to "scratch an itch".

 

[DropkickMurphy]

simply have a very easy time with the subjects they covered

I forgot about this one......even if you're a doc (a med student before third year ranks right above someone with a bachelors degree in terms of practical clinical knowledge, so I'm not even ), doesn't mean you will breeze through.

I've had three family practice docs (all small town docs) come through programs I have taught at and one (who happens to be a damn fine doc whom I respect a great deal for) failed because she did not pass the cardiology portion of the class (basically ACLS with the "why" thrown in over a summer semester). Now if a boarded doc with a lot of experience can fail out, I think a wet behind the ears med student with a chip on his (or her) shoulder is going to be eaten alive. If the class doesn't get them, the clinical instructors (think surgical attendings minus people skills and professional courtesy) will probably eat them alive because of the student's attitude.

 

[DeadCactus]

Thought so. Was just curious. Question popped into my head awhile back and wouldn't leave...

 

[DropkickMurphy]

It's a fair question and I apologize if I was a little curt in the way I worded things.

 

[psychbender]

In some states, they can challenge for paramedic (go straight to taking the National Registry exam), provided they have prior experience in EMS.

 

[DropkickMurphy]

In some states, they can challenge for paramedic (go straight to taking the National Registry exam), provided they have prior experience in EMS.

I believe that's for practicing and licensed physicians, not med students.

 

[DeadCactus]

I believe that's for practicing and licensed physicians, not med students.

What would be the motivation for a physician to want to challenge for the cert? I can see wanting to take the course as as a physician because you want some training in handling emergency medical situations, especially outside of the hospital enviroment; but why challenge just for the cert?

 

[DropkickMurphy]

What would be the motivation for a physician to want to challenge for the cert?

Quite a few EM docs who are EMS medical directors obtain their medic certifications (although most often they previously held it before becoming a doc). I know of four (including my former medical director) who will respond to calls in the field. I also know of three family practice doctors back home who will respond to call as members of the local volunteer fire departments. I think it has more to do with personal interest than professional activities to be quite honest. However, I do think that anyone who functions as an EMS medical director should have to have either been an EMT or medic before becoming a doctor or should be expected to go through the training relatively quick once assuming the role.

 

[146233]

What would be the motivation for a physician to want to challenge for the cert? I can see wanting to take the course as as a physician because you want some training in handling emergency medical situations, especially outside of the hospital enviroment; but why challenge just for the cert?

EMS Fellowships are also gaining in popularity. That said, physicians functioning as providers in the field (esp. in Chicago) want the additional training in street medicine as well as the liability deflector that field licensure provides.

 

[DropkickMurphy]

EMS Fellowships are also gaining in popularity. That said, physicians functioning as providers in the field (esp. in Chicago) want the additional training in street medicine as well as the liability deflector that field licensure provides.

Plus it's fun to mess with the newbies when they say "What do you think you are? A doc?" My former medical director, who has been a medic since he went to Viet Nam is 1970 (if I recall the date correctly) with Army SF, loved to do that to the smartass little punks on the VFDs.

 

[deleted6669]

"(think surgical attendings minus people skills and professional courtesy)"

actually I'm having a hard time right now thinking of a surgeon with them.....

 

[psychbender]

I believe that's for practicing and licensed physicians, not med students.

Nope, med students. In Virginia, current Virginia ALS (Cardiac Techs/Intermediate-99s) or current BLS/previous Virginia ALS who have completed the first two years of medical school are allowed to challenge for Paramedic. It's about the only challenge left in the state (RNs used to be able to challenge Cardiac Tech), though I have heard someone else say that PAs with the same EMS background can similarly challenge. I, and two of my classmates (all I-99s currently running in VA) are jumping through the hoops and looking for a national registry test site now. One of my buddies did this two years ago, as well (I think he was the first DO student to challenge in the state).

 

[pseudoknot]

Nope, med students. In Virginia, current Virginia ALS (Cardiac Techs/Intermediate-99s) or current BLS/previous Virginia ALS who have completed the first two years of medical school are allowed to challenge for Paramedic. It's about the only challenge left in the state (RNs used to be able to challenge Cardiac Tech), though I have heard someone else say that PAs with the same EMS background can similarly challenge. I, and two of my classmates (all I-99s currently running in VA) are jumping through the hoops and looking for a national registry test site now. One of my buddies did this two years ago, as well (I think he was the first DO student to challenge in the state).

It appears that this is not currently the case. Item 10 from this document:
http://www.vdh.virginia.gov/OEMS/Files_page/Training/Minutes/MDC10-14-2004.pdf

The EMS Training Program Administration Manual policy updates were brought up for discussion. The committee discussed a “new” policy recommendation T-665 Professional Health Occupations Paramedic Examination Eligibility that would have allowed third and fourth year medical students, dentists and chiropractors based on their prior education would be allowed to challenge the NREMT paramedic examination process. Motion by John Rawls, M.D. and seconded by Peter Bruzzo, M.D. not to allow third and fourth year medical students, dentists and chiropractors based on their prior education to challenge the NREMT paramedic examinations…Motion passed.

Policy T-665 as written will not be included in the EMS Training Program Administration Manual as proposed.

 

[howelljolly]

Just another point of note:

All medical fields tend to shy away from students that just want to "scratch and itch". Makes for bad medicine.

 

[docB]

Just another point of note:

All medical fields tend to shy away from students that just want to "scratch and itch". Makes for bad medicine.

Even Derm?

 

[psychbender]

It appears that this is not currently the case. Item 10 from this document:
http://www.vdh.virginia.gov/OEMS/Files_page/Training/Minutes/MDC10-14-2004.pdf

Well, look like no one paid any attention to that (which is odd, because I dealt with both Warren and Tom), as I was able to go through the challenge process and got my shiny new NREMT-Paramedic just last month, and one of my classmates did the same back in August or September. So, as of last month, this is still a valid option for Cardiac Techs/Intermediates in medical school.

 

[howelljolly]

Even Derm?

Once again, I stand corrected by the good doctor.

I'd venture to guess that those folks have no problem with it. After all, they used the medical education system to their advantage, so that they never have to practice medicine.

No, that doesnt count as Derm bashing.