A more superficial topic - income between GP and specializing

[Throwawayvetusa]

Hey everyone, I guess somewhat more of a superficial topic and one I didn't really want to bring up, but I figured an online anonymous profile is better than asking some of my profs who might not look too highly on me asking about money and salaries.

The main question I wanted to ask is if it's worth it to pursue a residency and become a boarded specialist, and work for a referral hospital, mainly for the increase in salary? I have a radiology professor who basically told us about how he makes $250-300 per case, and he has friends and former classmates that live in Hawaii or other cool places and just do purely referral-by-email cases on their laptops. However, I don't know if my brain works in a way that is suitable for, say, surgery or radiology, and if I were to go into a specialty it'll probably be Internal Med, which doesn't pay that much more than GP, or maybe dermatology which I do find very interesting, but I haven't had any rotations in yet.

I went into vet school like most people because it was my passion, and I knew that the salary as a veterinarian is not very high which I was fine with. I wrote the DAT, got into dental and turned it down because I figured the money wasn't worth the job and stress and basically looking at teeth all day. I'm currently in my second semester of third year, and have experience working at a referral hospital as well as working at a general practice. In terms of the work itself, I love both jobs almost equally, and can see myself in both areas. However, the main question I have is with salaries as a boarded specialist, versus a GP who used the 1 year of internship + 3 years of residency to work, and possibly is a partner/co-owner.

I'm currently learning more towards general practice because I really enjoyed the client-patient-veterinarian relationship, as well as having perhaps naive dreams of being "that" vet clinic in the neighborhood that everyone loves; furthermore, I just want to start working and making some money, and actually becoming a proper adult I guess? However, having grown up in a multi-sibling household with my brother going to an Ivy League and my older sister working as a MD, along with having traditional Chinese parents who already didn't like the fact that I went into veterinary medicine, I just feel like there is pressure on me to try my best to enter a specialty. Plus, I don't know how hard it is to get a job since it seems like the market is saturated with vets now. However, I don't know if being a boarded specialist will really make that much more money anyways, and if that money is even important if my quality of life suffers, especially during my 1+3 years as an intern/resident! Additionally, I think someone in my class calculated that the salary you potentially miss out on in the 4 years you're continuing your education won't be made up for in at least 10 years as a specialist, but I don't know how reliable that value is. I guess another thing that makes me lean towards specializing is that perhaps they have better job security or an easier time finding a job? I have no clue about that though.

I guess as a tl;dr it's mostly just me leaning more towards GP and being hopefully a good general practitioner that the community likes, respects and trusts, but having pressure from parents (who pay for my tuition and rent and such) as well as pressure I place on myself to become specialized, partly for job security, partly for the "prestige", and partly for the increase in salary. Anyone have insights in this area? I just don't want to go into specializing being deluded and having unrealistic thoughts about what being a specialist is.

Thank you so, so much

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[CalliopeDVM]

I personally don't think the trade off is financially worth it -- not only are you giving up 4-5 years of income, you're adding to your student debt. Add to that the reality that many people who specialize end up needing to move in order to find work, and often move to a large urban center with a higher cost of living. I also wouldn't say you'd have more job security as a specialist, and new jobs often come with another move. Go for a specialty if it's what you really want to do, but I wouldn't do it for the financial benefits which, depending on the length of your anticipated career, won't be that much.

 

[Throwawayvetusa]

I'm from a pretty urban place and would actually prefer to go back to a more busy location, if there are jobs there I guess haha! I thought residencies paid a small stipend (like $30k-ish), I wouldn't have to pay tuition during internship/residency right? Not sure if I'm eligible for the interest-fee status/deferment as an intern/resident though on loans. I just feel like if I went into GP and do well at my job and be a good vet, I might be able to become a co-owner or buy-in, or something like that and at that point the salary difference wouldn't even be that big anyways, right? I'm not sure how the whole VCA/AVC thing works though, and if you're allowed to buy-in or take over someone who is retiring if the clinic is under them. If that's the case, it might make co-owning more tricky?

Thank you for your help CalliopeDVM! I guess I'm trying to find excuses to NOT specialize, since my biggest motivation to specialize is for the potential higher salary.

 

[CalliopeDVM]

I thought residencies paid a small stipend (like $30k-ish), I wouldn't have to pay tuition during internship/residency right? Not sure if I'm eligible for the interest-fee status/deferment as an intern/resident though on loans.

There is a small stipend, and I believe no tuition fees. I don't know about loan deferment, but you still have living costs (and potentially interest accumulation).

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

There is a small stipend, and I believe no tuition fees. I don't know about loan deferment, but you still have living costs (and potentially interest accumulation).

Stipend of around 30k depending on area for residents, less for interns. Tuition and fees usually covered. You can defer loans in residency, but you will continue to accrue interest on the unsubsidized portion of your loans.

As a boarded specialist I will be looking at 100-120k/yr if I go into an academic faculty position, likely more in industry but I'm not really into industry. More as I progress into seniority and/or get tenure. So pretty decent. I'm not sure about specialty referral hospitals.

However, by the end of residency I had tacked on another 30k to my loans, and the PhD has tacked on about the same so far. Graduated with 135k, now approaching 200k. Nothing to sneeze at.

If you're only pursuing a specialty for money and prestige (the latter of which is a bull**** thing anyway - I respect the hell out of GPs - I may have more depth but lord do they have the breadth)....Stop, do not pass Go, do not collect $100. You'll be miserable during the crucible that is specialty training for a modest overall monetary gain. You really have to love the field to make it worth it.

Jobs are not terrible - I don't know many unemployed specialists - but you will be very restricted in terms of where you can live and work. For example, I want to be a clinical professor at a vet school. So there are only about 30 places in the entire US I can work if I choose to stay in academia, compared to thousands of vet clinics available for GPs.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

I'm from a pretty urban place and would actually prefer to go back to a more busy location, if there are jobs there I guess haha! I thought residencies paid a small stipend (like $30k-ish), I wouldn't have to pay tuition during internship/residency right? Not sure if I'm eligible for the interest-fee status/deferment as an intern/resident though on loans. I just feel like if I went into GP and do well at my job and be a good vet, I might be able to become a co-owner or buy-in, or something like that and at that point the salary difference wouldn't even be that big anyways, right? I'm not sure how the whole VCA/AVC thing works though, and if you're allowed to buy-in or take over someone who is retiring if the clinic is under them. If that's the case, it might make co-owning more tricky?

Thank you for your help CalliopeDVM! I guess I'm trying to find excuses to NOT specialize, since my biggest motivation to specialize is for the potential higher salary.

Yeah.....that's not a good reason. I don't mean that in a mean way, just being honest with you. Your biggest motivation for specializing should be passion for the specialty itself. If it's not, you're going to be miserable, burned out, and bored.

 

[Throwawayvetusa]

Yeah.....that's not a good reason. I don't mean that in a mean way, just being honest with you. Your biggest motivation for specializing should be passion for the specialty itself. If it's not, you're going to be miserable, burned out, and bored.

Not mean at all, thank you very much! I knew that it was a bad reason to go into a specialization, but the bump in salary was and is definitely the swaying factor for me. I mean, not a lot of people that wouldn't be swayed by their prof talking about chilling on the beach looking at a few series of rads, making a few hundred each case, or one of the surgeons talking about the five TPLOs they do in a day, or the dermatology guest lecturer who only works 4 days a week and has an X month waiting list.

One thing I do worry about with GP is that I'm unsure about the quality of mentorship and I guess choosing the right practice to work in. I have some fabulous profs, and I'm assuming that the instructors for internships and residencies are half-decent as well (of course, there are some institutions that basically work their interns to the ground), and I'm just not sure how I would even "Google" for private practices with a good vet that will also be a good teacher, since rumors are hardly reliable to go on!

Anyways, thank you so, so much for both of your advice, I'm definitely leaning more towards GP but just trying to get over the "obstacle" of the increase in salary as a specialist!

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Not mean at all, thank you very much! I knew that it was a bad reason to go into a specialization, but the bump in salary was and is definitely the swaying factor for me. I mean, not a lot of people that wouldn't be swayed by their prof talking about chilling on the beach looking at a few series of rads, making a few hundred each case, or one of the surgeons talking about the five TPLOs they do in a day, or the dermatology guest lecturer who only works 4 days a week and has an X month waiting list.

One thing I do worry about with GP is that I'm unsure about the quality of mentorship and I guess choosing the right practice to work in. I have some fabulous profs, and I'm assuming that the instructors for internships and residencies are half-decent as well (of course, there are some institutions that basically work their interns to the ground), and I'm just not sure how I would even "Google" for private practices with a good vet that will also be a good teacher, since rumors are hardly reliable to go on!

Anyways, thank you so, so much for both of your advice, I'm definitely leaning more towards GP but just trying to get over the "obstacle" of the increase in salary as a specialist!

Remember these are usually exceptions, though. The few people that have the amazing cushy jobs talk about them a lot. The vast majority of people who have more normal versions of said jobs don't. It's a self-selection thing.

You're definitely right though that it can harder to gauge mentorship in a private practice as compared to academic residencies - in the latter you generally have access to a lot of people you can ask (other profs, the residents themselves, etc), and the situation is a lot more structured.

 

[SocialStigma]

I wouldn't go down the internship and residency route unless specializing is the only way you'll be happy in vet med. Yes the pay bump helps but it's not worth it if you could be happy as a GP.

I'm currently a surgery resident and while the money at the end of the tunnel helps, the promise of making $200k+ one day (starting salaries in private practice are usually $180-190k if board eligible, $200k+ if boarded) means little when you've been working 60-80+ hours per week and making $28-33k for 4 years minimum (internship + residency). During those 4 years you'll have little to no work-life balance (particularly for specialties where you have on call responsibilities), minimal disposable income, and are essentially putting your life on hold until you finish your residency. I chose a residency program where a graduate degree is optional, so I've saved a bit of money there (for other schools/specialties it may not be optional, which means you have to pay grad tuition fees on top of everything). I absolutely love what I do and have zero regrets about pursuing surgery, but that's because I can't see myself being happy in any other field within vet med.

 

[CalliopeDVM]

One thing I do worry about with GP is that I'm unsure about the quality of mentorship and I guess choosing the right practice to work in. I have some fabulous profs, and I'm assuming that the instructors for internships and residencies are half-decent as well (of course, there are some institutions that basically work their interns to the ground), and I'm just not sure how I would even "Google" for private practices with a good vet that will also be a good teacher, since rumors are hardly reliable to go on!

I have got to speak up here.......a mentor is not a teacher, and you shouldn't need a teacher after graduation. You'll be a licensed professional, and you should be your own teacher......if you feel you need a teacher, I worry about your problem solving, research skills, and self-motivation, and you might consider handing back your license. I know that's harsh and probably over the top, but I mean it. Professionals learn all the time, but we don't learn because someone else is teaching us something. We learn from conversations with colleagues, from personal experience, from research/reading/listening, we learn from experimentation......but the people who help us with that aren't teachers. They're colleagues, friends, researchers in their field, or even just people with different experiences from us. I've learned as much from clients as I have from my bosses over the years. When I go to a lecture or a wet lab to learn something new, the person speaking, demonstrating, or answering questions isn't my teacher, telling me what I must know and how I should learn it. We left "teachers" decades ago.

What a mentor is, and what you may want, is a guide, support, and/or coach -- but not a teacher. And remember that mentors don't have to be your boss (and probably sometimes shouldn't be). And mentors don't even have to be local; you can have a mentor that you speak to on the phone, or chat with over Skype.

 

[Throwawayvetusa]

I wouldn't go down the internship and residency route unless specializing is the only way you'll be happy in vet med. Yes the pay bump helps but it's not worth it if you could be happy as a GP.

I'm currently a surgery resident and while the money at the end of the tunnel helps, the promise of making $200k+ one day (starting salaries in private practice are usually $180-190k if board eligible, $200k+ if boarded) means little when you've been working 60-80+ hours per week and making $28-33k for 4 years minimum (internship + residency). During those 4 years you'll have little to no work-life balance (particularly for specialties where you have on call responsibilities), minimal disposable income, and are essentially putting your life on hold until you finish your residency. I chose a residency program where a graduate degree is optional, so I've saved a bit of money there (for other schools/specialties it may not be optional, which means you have to pay grad tuition fees on top of everything). I absolutely love what I do and have zero regrets about pursuing surgery, but that's because I can't see myself being happy in any other field within vet med.

See I guess my thought process is that I'm 22, don't really have any plans, and it seems like 4 years of no work-life balance is tolerable for the (very) big bump in salary. Although I currently am quite tired/slightly burnt out due to the fact that I'm basically studying all night after school, spending full weekends at the library and spending my Xmas break shadowing doctors and summers doing research when some of my GP-oriented classmates are certainly a lot more laidback because they don't need high grades and just need to pass, and I certainly envy their lifestyles.

I have got to speak up here.......a mentor is not a teacher, and you shouldn't need a teacher after graduation. You'll be a licensed professional, and you should be your own teacher......if you feel you need a teacher, I worry about your problem solving, research skills, and self-motivation, and you might consider handing back your license. I know that's harsh and probably over the top, but I mean it. Professionals learn all the time, but we don't learn because someone else is teaching us something. We learn from conversations with colleagues, from personal experience, from research/reading/listening, we learn from experimentation......but the people who help us with that aren't teachers. They're colleagues, friends, researchers in their field, or even just people with different experiences from us. I've learned as much from clients as I have from my bosses over the years. When I go to a lecture or a wet lab to learn something new, the person speaking, demonstrating, or answering questions isn't my teacher, telling me what I must know and how I should learn it. We left "teachers" decades ago.

What a mentor is, and what you may want, is a guide, support, and/or coach -- but not a teacher. And remember that mentors don't have to be your boss (and probably sometimes shouldn't be). And mentors don't even have to be local; you can have a mentor that you speak to on the phone, or chat with over Skype.

Right, that makes complete sense and I didn't mean to suggest that without a "teacher" I would be wholly incompetent, and have malpractice cases left and right haha! I think I've (we've/our class) has been told enough horror stories about vets hiring a new grad and basically "checking out", refusing or taking forever to pick up the phone, etc. and basically giving up all veterinary and administrative duties over with barely any training that I just got a bit paranoid. Also talking to some doctors (mostly ER though) they kept hammering in the fact that "You're a new grad, you'll make a lot of mistakes in your first year(s). Older vets don't like mistakes, it's going to suck so much at the beginning, but that's ok it's like a rite of passage and it gets better!"

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

See I guess my thought process is that I'm 22, don't have a boyfriend and don't really have any plans in terms of a family or life after vet school, and it seems like 4 years of no work-life balance is tolerable for the (very) big bump in salary. Although I currently am quite tired/slightly burnt out due to the fact that I'm basically studying all night after school, spending full weekends at the library and spending my Xmas break shadowing doctors and summers doing research when some of my GP-oriented classmates are certainly a lot more laidback because they don't need high grades and just need to pass, and I certainly envy their lifestyles.

If you are spending this much of your time studying, you are studying wrong.

This sounds less about choice in job and more about you pushing yourself too hard (and potentially inefficiently) compared to others who have better coping strategies.

If you are already tired and burning yourself out, I repeat - you will be miserable in specialty training. Trust me on this. Stop putting your self worth on money and prestige. Stop subconsciously feeding an inferiority complex. You are also assuming that difficulty in work-life balance will only be those 4 years? Hah. Do you know what the schedule of most specialists is like? We don't all sit on the beach sitting martinis and reading digital rads. Far from it.

I have not pursued 7 years of post-DVM training because I want the salary bump. I am doing it because I love what I do - THAT is what has kept me going. If all I cared about was the money, I would have dropped out long ago from the stress. You will too if that is your reasoning. I can guarantee it.

Look, I'm going to level with you. There is no guaranteed "payoff" in life. I.e. there is never ANY guarantee that, if you just WORK hard enough, you will be rewarded.

Work does not end, stress does not end, work-life balance issues do not end. These are constant issues that can't just be waved away once you have reached a particular level of prestige or income, especially not in vet med.

 

[CalliopeDVM]

Also talking to some doctors (mostly ER though) they kept hammering in the fact that "You're a new grad, you'll make a lot of mistakes in your first year(s). Older vets don't like mistakes, it's going to suck so much at the beginning, but that's ok it's like a rite of passage and it gets better!"

Well, your BS meter should have been flaring, because all doctors make mistakes. Even older, more experienced ones. Anyone who says otherwise is fooling themselves.

Sure, newer grads will make more frequent mistakes, but that's not always a bad thing. Not because it's a rite of passage, but because it's an excellent way of learning. So, don't strive for perfection and never making a mistake, because that will never happen. But hope (and try) that the mistakes you do make have minor consequences and take no lives. And know that you can still be a good doctor, and go on to do good things, even after a fatal mistake.....if you learn from it and put what you learn into action.

 

[SocialStigma]

See I guess my thought process is that I'm 22, don't have a boyfriend and don't really have any plans in terms of a family or life after vet school, and it seems like 4 years of no work-life balance is tolerable for the (very) big bump in salary. Although I currently am quite tired/slightly burnt out due to the fact that I'm basically studying all night after school, spending full weekends at the library and spending my Xmas break shadowing doctors and summers doing research when some of my GP-oriented classmates are certainly a lot more laidback because they don't need high grades and just need to pass, and I certainly envy their lifestyles.

Re: work-life balance, you may not have a SO now/plans for a family but that may change in the next few years. I agree with you that 4 years is definitely doable but just keep in mind that it may not "just" be 4 years. Specialty internships are becoming increasingly common and I know a number of people who completed a rotating internship followed by 1-3 surgery internships before finally matching to a residency. The fortunate ones match to a residency straight out of a rotating internship, but that 4 year journey could end up being much longer, particularly in fields like surgery, cardio, ophtho, etc. I was one of the lucky ones but had I not matched, I would've pursued a surgery internship. If I didn't match after a surgery internship, I would've completed a Master's degree (since the weakest part of my application was lack of research experience). Say you decide to specialize. If you don't match right out of an internship, are you willing to keep trying to match? Or would you become a GP? If your answer is you would go into general practice, then my advice would be to be a GP from the start and not lose out on year(s) of lost time and salary as an intern.

 

[Throwawayvetusa]

If you are spending this much of your time studying, you are studying wrong.

This sounds less about choice in job and more about you pushing yourself too hard (and potentially inefficiently) compared to others who have better coping strategies.

If you are already tired and burning yourself out, I repeat - you will be miserable in specialty training. Trust me on this. Stop putting your self worth on money and prestige. Stop subconsciously feeding an inferiority complex. You are also assuming that difficulty in work-life balance will only be those 4 years? Hah. Do you know what the schedule of most specialists is like? We don't all sit on the beach sitting martinis and reading digital rads. Far from it.

I have not pursued 7 years of post-DVM training because I want the salary bump. I am doing it because I love what I do - THAT is what has kept me going. If all I cared about was the money, I would have dropped out long ago from the stress. You will too if that is your reasoning. I can guarantee it.

Look, I'm going to level with you. There is no guaranteed "payoff" in life. I.e. there is never ANY guarantee that, if you just WORK hard enough, you will be rewarded.

Work does not end, stress does not end, work-life balance issues do not end. These are constant issues that can't just be waved away once you have reached a particular level of prestige or income, especially not in vet med.

I guess the reason I spend so much time is because I go through all my notes for the day and relearn it, make notes, etc., and with extra time I go through notes I made from previous days/go through other courses. Just can't seem to be able to relax or see friends or something when I know in the back of my mind I should be taking some time off, but that's a personal thing I know I need to get over.

The inferiority complex (both to my siblings and to perhaps other classmates or other professionals like MDs) is spot on, and putting my self-worth on money is spot on as well. I have very positive day-dreams about GP all the time and would just love to be a good GP vet and be an integral part of a patient/client's family, I guess I'll have to get over myself haha!

Thank you WTF, really.

Well, your BS meter should have been flaring, because all doctors make mistakes. Even older, more experienced ones. Anyone who says otherwise is fooling themselves.

Sure, newer grads will make more frequent mistakes, but that's not always a bad thing. Not because it's a rite of passage, but because it's an excellent way of learning. So, don't strive for perfection and never making a mistake, because that will never happen. But hope (and try) that the mistakes you do make have minor consequences and take no lives. And know that you can still be a good doctor, and go on to do good things, even after a fatal mistake.....if you learn from it and put what you learn into action.

Definitely true, making mistakes is probably the fastest, best way to learn! We get a good mixture of great instructors and instructors who get a kick out of scaring the crap outta us!

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

See I guess my thought process is that I'm 22, don't have a boyfriend and don't really have any plans in terms of a family or life after vet school, and it seems like 4 years of no work-life balance is tolerable for the (very) big bump in salary. Although I currently am quite tired/slightly burnt out due to the fact that I'm basically studying all night after school, spending full weekends at the library and spending my Xmas break shadowing doctors and summers doing research when some of my GP-oriented classmates are certainly a lot more laidback because they don't need high grades and just need to pass, and I certainly envy their lifestyles"

I guess the reason I spend so much time is because I go through all my notes for the day and relearn it, make notes, etc., and with extra time I go through notes I made from previous days/go through other courses. Just can't seem to be able to relax or see friends or something when I know in the back of my mind I should be taking some time off, but that's a personal thing I know I need to get over.

The inferiority complex (both to my siblings and to perhaps other classmates or other professionals like MDs) is spot on, and putting my self-worth on money is spot on as well. I have very positive day-dreams about GP all the time and would just love to be a good GP vet and be an integral part of a patient/client's family, I guess I'll have to get over myself haha!

Thank you WTF, really.

It's cool. I have a massive one myself so I can spot it a mile away. I think a lot of very smart people who go into a career like vet med where the monetary rewards as so much less than that of other professions (plus the beating that we take on a daily basis from clients etc) have varying degrees of inferiority complex. We worry so dearly that we aren't good enough, or that we are going to be "found out", etc.

Instead of sitting there reading your notes, go for a walk outside in the sun and talk about the subject to yourself as if you were teaching a class to see how much you remember for example. I used to "teach" my dog stuff when we were out on our daily walks (jsut don't do it too obviously or people will think you're nuts ) Definitely try to cultivate something outside of studying. I know it's very difficult (especially if you are an introvert like me) but it can really save your butt.

When I was in vet school, I was gung-ho going into either research or pathology - so pretty darn competitive. I worked 2 part time jobs all through school, spent every summer doing externships or research, took every path related elective I could, you name it. I had NO ONE I hung out with outside of school. I had no clubs, no groups. I had no hobbies other than video games. Everything was either work or exhaustion (and this was capitalized by the fact that my grades were lower than that of my peers, which always ate at me even though I knew part of it was simply because I was overextending myself in so many other areas).

Because of this, I relapsed into a particularly nasty case of depression that I had previously managed to keep in check since I first went through it in my teenage years. That spiraled in substance abuse - my life was work, work work, get home, get ****face drunk at home alone, go to sleep, wake up after only a few hours of sleep and usually hung over, back to work work work, smoking like a chimney every chance I got and mainlining caffeine to force myself into a semblance of a normal person - a classic miserable "functioning alcoholic" (even though that entire idea is a misnomer). Every day because I had no idea what to do with myself outside of mother-fecking vet school.

And ironically, I kept performing SO well that I was able to pretend it wasn't a problem....unless I catastrophically broke down on the track in third year and almost dropped out. It was a huge, HUGE wake-up call that I needed to take care of myself better.

It's so tempting to just want to bury yourself in your job so you can convince yourself you are the best (or at least convince yourself that you are competent). I still struggle with it. But the reality is, no matter how much you do, you'll NEVER think you have done "enough" unless you change your mindset to appreciate yourself more

 

[RadRadTerp]

I've been offered ER positions without a residency in the greater NYC area that pay a good amount more than starting GP salaries. For me, I couldn't work overnights, and I like doing wellness visits, seeing my regular clients every year, and having a consistent schedule, so for me the salary wasn't worth it.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

I've been offered ER positions without a residency in the greater NYC area that pay a good amount more than starting GP salaries. For me, I couldn't work overnights, and I like doing wellness visits, seeing my regular clients every year, and having a consistent schedule, so for me the salary wasn't worth it.

But in NYC....do they adjust for COL?

 

[deleted498041]

I wouldn't go down the internship and residency route unless specializing is the only way you'll be happy in vet med. Yes the pay bump helps but it's not worth it if you could be happy as a GP.

I'm currently a surgery resident and while the money at the end of the tunnel helps, the promise of making $200k+ one day (starting salaries in private practice are usually $180-190k if board eligible, $200k+ if boarded) means little when you've been working 60-80+ hours per week and making $28-33k for 4 years minimum (internship + residency). During those 4 years you'll have little to no work-life balance (particularly for specialties where you have on call responsibilities), minimal disposable income, and are essentially putting your life on hold until you finish your residency. I chose a residency program where a graduate degree is optional, so I've saved a bit of money there (for other schools/specialties it may not be optional, which means you have to pay grad tuition fees on top of everything). I absolutely love what I do and have zero regrets about pursuing surgery, but that's because I can't see myself being happy in any other field within vet med.

Can I ask where you got this number from? I've been trying to look into that kind of information for surgeons and the only thing I could find was that AVMA study that gets published of median salaries for different specialties and showed something like $100-120k for board certified surgeons -- although I could be remembering that incorrectly now.

 

[Lab Vet]

If you are already tired and burning yourself out, I repeat - you will be miserable in specialty training. Trust me on this. Stop putting your self worth on money and prestige. Stop subconsciously feeding an inferiority complex. You are also assuming that difficulty in work-life balance will only be those 4 years? Hah. Do you know what the schedule of most specialists is like? We don't all sit on the beach sitting martinis and reading digital rads. Far from it.

I have not pursued 7 years of post-DVM training because I want the salary bump. I am doing it because I love what I do - THAT is what has kept me going. If all I cared about was the money, I would have dropped out long ago from the stress. You will too if that is your reasoning. I can guarantee it.

Look, I'm going to level with you. There is no guaranteed "payoff" in life. I.e. there is never ANY guarantee that, if you just WORK hard enough, you will be rewarded.

Work does not end, stress does not end, work-life balance issues do not end. These are constant issues that can't just be waved away once you have reached a particular level of prestige or income, especially not in vet med.

Hello, friend Agree 100%. If it doesn't knock your socks off- it's not worth it.

 

[SocialStigma]

Can I ask where you got this number from? I've been trying to look into that kind of information for surgeons and the only thing I could find was that AVMA study that gets published of median salaries for different specialties and showed something like $100-120k for board certified surgeons -- although I could be remembering that incorrectly now.

From speaking with recruiting directors at VCA, BluePearl, etc and job ads. I haven't seen that study myself but $100-120k is more like the starting salary for a boarded surgeon in academia. Starting salaries out in private practice typically are $150k+ (I personally have not heard of anything lower).

 

[deleted498041]

From speaking with recruiting directors at VCA, BluePearl, etc and job ads. I haven't seen that study myself but $100-120k is more like the starting salary for a boarded surgeon in academia. Starting salaries out in private practice typically are $150k+ (I personally have not heard of anything lower).

Oh, that's interesting. Thanks for sharing!

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

From speaking with recruiting directors at VCA, BluePearl, etc and job ads. I haven't seen that study myself but $100-120k is more like the starting salary for a boarded surgeon in academia. Starting salaries out in private practice typically are $150k+ (I personally have not heard of anything lower).

Sounds about right to me

 

[Throwawayvetusa]

I think I'm still being stubborn/dumb, but I keep thinking "What if?", as in sure I want to be a GP, I enjoy the work (from what I've experienced working, shadowing), etc. and would love to have a good quality of life and work-life balance, but "what if" those 4-6 years of post-DVM education where I have a very poor quality of life is worth it for the 2 times or more increase in salary, "what if" 10 years, 15 years down the road I keep wondering what would've happened if I went into a specialization, etc. I might be mistaken but I keep thinking that if I regret specializing sure I'd have wasted some time and money, but I can always go back to GP, or academia and teach, but if I just went into GP and wanted to specialize years down the road I've heard/read that internships/residencies don't really want to accept these types of students because they would have to reteach everything and make them "unlearn" bad habits and such!

It's cool. I have a massive one myself so I can spot it a mile away. I think a lot of very smart people who go into a career like vet med where the monetary rewards as so much less than that of other professions (plus the beating that we take on a daily basis from clients etc) have varying degrees of inferiority complex. We worry so dearly that we aren't good enough, or that we are going to be "found out", etc.

Instead of sitting there reading your notes, go for a walk outside in the sun and talk about the subject to yourself as if you were teaching a class to see how much you remember for example. I used to "teach" my dog stuff when we were out on our daily walks (jsut don't do it too obviously or people will think you're nuts ) Definitely try to cultivate something outside of studying. I know it's very difficult (especially if you are an introvert like me) but it can really save your butt.

When I was in vet school, I was gung-ho going into either research or pathology - so pretty darn competitive. I worked 2 part time jobs all through school, spent every summer doing externships or research, took every path related elective I could, you name it. I had NO ONE I hung out with outside of school. I had no clubs, no groups. I had no hobbies other than video games. Everything was either work or exhaustion (and this was capitalized by the fact that my grades were lower than that of my peers, which always ate at me even though I knew part of it was simply because I was overextending myself in so many other areas).

Because of this, I relapsed into a particularly nasty case of depression that I had previously managed to keep in check since I first went through it in my teenage years. That spiraled in substance abuse - my life was work, work work, get home, get ****face drunk at home alone, go to sleep, wake up after only a few hours of sleep and usually hung over, back to work work work, smoking like a chimney every chance I got and mainlining caffeine to force myself into a semblance of a normal person - a classic miserable "functioning alcoholic" (even though that entire idea is a misnomer). Every day because I had no idea what to do with myself outside of mother-fecking vet school.

And ironically, I kept performing SO well that I was able to pretend it wasn't a problem....unless I catastrophically broke down on the track in third year and almost dropped out. It was a huge, HUGE wake-up call that I needed to take care of myself better.

It's so tempting to just want to bury yourself in your job so you can convince yourself you are the best (or at least convince yourself that you are competent). I still struggle with it. But the reality is, no matter how much you do, you'll NEVER think you have done "enough" unless you change your mindset to appreciate yourself more

A big thing I worry about, that I shouldn't even concern myself with, is if I'm like you said, "good enough". I was in a pre-med sort of program and I was the only one who wanted to go into vet, and I used to get comments often about whether I chose vet because it was easier to get in, or I got rejected from MD, or something like that, which makes me want to prove myself more in the DVM program.

Yea so far I'm performing well enough, but not as well as I'd hope for how much time I'm putting in. I notice that I get distracted very easily, and unless I stay at school or go to a cafe to study I cannot get much done, I'll keep turning off my website-blocking app, alt-tab to Facebook or Reddit, or look at Instagram haha! I found that if I know I have something to look forward to later at night, such as a TV show coming on at 10:00pm or I'm meeting some friends for dessert, I'll work harder in the hours leading up to it than I would've if I stayed home all night, so I definitely need to find some time for relaxation, seems to help with my concentration and studying!


Thank you for all the help everyone, it went from me asking a simple question of if a surgery/radiology or some other residency is worth it for the salary, to talking about..everything? Haha!

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

I think I'm still being stubborn/dumb, but I keep thinking "What if?", as in sure I want to be a GP, I enjoy the work (from what I've experienced working, shadowing), etc. and would love to have a good quality of life and work-life balance, but "what if" those 4-6 years of post-DVM education where I have a very poor quality of life is worth it for the 2 times or more increase in salary, "what if" 10 years, 15 years down the road I keep wondering what would've happened if I went into a specialization, etc. I might be mistaken but I keep thinking that if I regret specializing sure I'd have wasted some time and money, but I can always go back to GP, or academia and teach, but if I just went into GP and wanted to specialize years down the road I've heard/read that internships/residencies don't really want to accept these types of students because they would have to reteach everything and make them "unlearn" bad habits and such!



A big thing I worry about, that I shouldn't even concern myself with, is if I'm like you said, "good enough". I was in a pre-med sort of program and I was the only one who wanted to go into vet, and I used to get comments often about whether I chose vet because it was easier to get in, or I got rejected from MD, or something like that, which makes me want to prove myself more in the DVM program.

Yea so far I'm performing well enough, but not as well as I'd hope for how much time I'm putting in. I notice that I get distracted very easily, and unless I stay at school or go to a cafe to study I cannot get much done, I'll keep turning off my website-blocking app, alt-tab to Facebook or Reddit, or look at Instagram haha! I found that if I know I have something to look forward to later at night, such as a TV show coming on at 10:00pm or I'm meeting some friends for dessert, I'll work harder in the hours leading up to it than I would've if I stayed home all night, so I definitely need to find some time for relaxation, seems to help with my concentration and studying!


Thank you for all the help everyone, it went from me asking a simple question of if a surgery/radiology or some other residency is worth it for the salary, to talking about..everything? Haha!

Ok, maybe.....but it ain't simple.

If you want a professor position at a vet school, you may well need a PhD (or at least an M.S. or board certification in said specialty) on top of your DVM - that is just how academia is. Check out the faculty pages at vet school and see how many letters there are floating around. Just something to consider unless you would be fine and happy at an instructor position versus a position at the rank of professor (where that research degree becomes more important). Also, academic positions are really difficult and very different from practicing as a clinical specialist. It's not a "backup". Teaching is hard, man. Plus the politics of academia...oof.

Secondly, you use it or lose it. I was just talking with @DVMDream how I couldn't read a radiograph to save my life anymore unless it is smack-you-in-the-face obvious. Surgery? I could maybe bumble my way through an LDA or a spay or something *very* simple, but that's probably it. I could never jump back into general practice without heavy mentoring - I'm far too specialized right now.

In terms of specializing after GP work....it depends 1) how long, 2) which specialty, and 3) where you apply. Having a few years of GP practice under your belt will not harm you in all cases.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

There are so many what ifs, dude. I wonder something if I had gone into engineering if I would have been happier and much more financially secure. I could have had a decent salary right out of undergrad and had my goat and duck farm, which is one of the biggest things I truly want in life. What if I had gone large animal ambulatory instead of path? What if I had done something where I could have avoided these 7-8 backbreaking years of post DVM work?

You cannot live in the what-if world - you will always be disappointed.

Think about the prestige of the trenches work - because yes, there IS prestige there. You hold lives in your hands. You are the jack of all trades. You're the mother-feckin soldiers of vet med. It really sounds like you are letting your own imposter syndrome and parental pressure drive you away from what you want to do.

Something I learned a long time ago in group was to seriously think about this question - what gives you joy in life? Not what makes you feel smart or superior or loved - what gives you joy.

For me? What gives me joy is seeing a student, and intern, a resident, whoever GET IT. Seeing that light bulb go on. Having students tell me I am a good mentor and they enjoyed working with me. THAT is what makes my heart of hearts happy, and that's why I'm doing what I'm doing. There is no way I would be slogging through this PhD if not for that.

So here's the question @Throwawayvetusa - what gives you joy? You personally, not your parents, or your peers, or your ego - YOU? And not just in the context of career - what type of life you make you the happiest? What are your goals outside of your career, and which career choice would allow you to achieve those goals (because those are *just* as important as your work goals).

 

[CalliopeDVM]

I think I'm still being stubborn/dumb, but I keep thinking "What if?", as in sure I want to be a GP, I enjoy the work (from what I've experienced working, shadowing), etc. and would love to have a good quality of life and work-life balance, but "what if" those 4-6 years of post-DVM education where I have a very poor quality of life is worth it for the 2 times or more increase in salary, "what if" 10 years, 15 years down the road I keep wondering what would've happened if I went into a specialization, etc.

That's the exact same philosophy that helps them sell lottery tickets and keeps casinos open.

All of life is a gamble, but some things are more risky and cost more than others. There are a lot of "what ifs" in life, so you have to actually look at the likelihood of that "if" happening and decide how much you're going to risk on it happening. What if you get hit by a bus crossing the street tomorrow and die? It could happen, so if you think "what if", spend all your money today fulfilling your bucket list........but if it doesn't, then you'll end up broke and without shelter tomorrow. And the likelihood is that it isn't going to happen. What if 10, 15 years down the road you wonder what would have happened if you went into specialization? What if 10 or 15 years down the road you wonder what would have happened if you'd not turned down that date to stay home and study for your exam the next day? It will happen -- 10 and 15 years down the road you will wonder about what might have happened if you'd taken a different turn. That's what life and aging is like; it's normal. That doesn't mean you'll regret it (maybe you will, maybe you won't), but everyone lives life with some regrets. Hopefully you'll have only a few, too few to mention........but we all have them.

 

[jmo1012]

Look, no one goes into vet med to get rich. People don't spend years of their lives going through the rigors of school and then several years of specialty training for the money. If money is really such a concern for you, you should very seriously consider a career outside of veterinary medicine and then find another way to fulfill your desire to work with animals. Really. The reality is that you are going to need to show passion and dedication to even be considered by an application committee for a residency. Most residencies are so competitive these days that dozens of extremely qualified people get passed over every year because there simply aren't the spots. The specialty with the 'lowest' competition is probably ecc, but we are also the lowest paid on the other side (sometimes no better than a non-boarded emergency clinician). You are very young still, your posts show how naive you are. You will understand what we are saying some day. I was you. Single, unattached, free to do whatever and when I was your age, none of those things mattered. I'm still all of those things now, but now I think about the realities of having a family, being away from my family, where I will end up in the future. Time has a way of sneaking up on you. You have many years ahead of you still to decide. You might even surprise youself and decide not to do small animal at all!

One last little thing - it's a little bit hurtful to hear that someone wants to go into specialty med only for the money. Most of us constantly here from clients about how we only care about money, we're too expensive and don't care about animals/people, etc. That's not why we do what we do. That's not why we work long hours, have on call, wake up in the middle of the night to help our cases, or come in on our days off. Although there's nothing wrong with being conscientious about your finances, you will not get very far with mentors and colleagues if you bring the attitude that it's all about the money.

 

[DPolaris]

I'm still in school and I haven't thought too far yet, but what about doing an internship first to see what exactly you're passionate about, and if you still want to go the specialization route rather than entering into general practice at a clinic? At best you find something you love that ticks off the salary or prestige box, and at worst you go back into general practice knowing specializing wouldn't have made you happier, or you realize it wasn't worth it, all on your own terms. You might think you may have wasted a year of your life that you could've used out in general practice, but you would have gained a lot of experience in that one year (something like one year of internship is roughly equivalent to 2 years of general practice, someone more experienced please correct me here), and you now also have to option of working as an Emergency Clinician if you want to; who knows, might make you more employable.

 

[CalliopeDVM]

but you would have gained a lot of experience in that one year (something like one year of internship is roughly equivalent to 2 years of general practice, someone more experienced please correct me here), and you now also have to option of working as an Emergency Clinician if you want to; who knows, might make you more employable.

Not in my experience. Yes, there's an awful lot of experience doing an internship, but it's not the same as doing even 2 years of general practice. It is lots experience in different things (even if you do a private practice internship), and it's usually lacking in experience in some important other things. I say this after working in practice with a couple of vets who've done an internship, and they're really no further ahead in most things than vets who spent that year in general practice.

Also, I think recent numbers show that an intern-trained vet isn't any more likely to get hired. Not sure about that, though.

 

[rdc]

I can't speak for GP salaries, but I can for myself and my specialist colleagues...

I am in my first year of speciality practice and I will make over 250k this year. My colleagues are doing about the same if not better. Even with the lost income after graduation due to internship and residency, I'm still way further ahead now that I ever would have been if I'd gone into GP. Financial compensation definitely played a role in my decision to specialize. Why wouldn't it? we may not have gone into this profession to get rich, but ****, why be poor if you don't have to.

There are many factors that go into deciding to specialize. Residency is a bitch. You have to really want to do it to be able to get through and pass your boards. But I can assure you that if you commit and pay your dues, the financial rewards once you're done are well worth it.

 

[CalliopeDVM]

What specialty are you in? What area do you practice?


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[deleted676737]

What specialty are you in? What area do you practice?


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

That's what I was wondering, too. I know that some specialties can net six figure salaries but I was thinking in the range of, say, $120k-180k... not $250k+. I'm really curious as to which specialty rdc is in and whether or not that number is actually typical for someone newly boarded (I'm guessing not?) or if it is due to location, like you suggested.

 

[JaynaAli]

I think rdc has said before they are a dentist? I might be confusing him/her for someone else though.

About the only clinical pathology job I know of that pays anywhere near that well, especially without years of experience, is with a drug company analyzing data from toxicologic/safety trials for drug companies.

 

[MDB74]

I can't speak for GP salaries, but I can for myself and my specialist colleagues...

I am in my first year of speciality practice and I will make over 250k this year. My colleagues are doing about the same if not better. Even with the lost income after graduation due to internship and residency, I'm still way further ahead now that I ever would have been if I'd gone into GP. Financial compensation definitely played a role in my decision to specialize. Why wouldn't it? we may not have gone into this profession to get rich, but ****, why be poor if you don't have to.

There are many factors that go into deciding to specialize. Residency is a bitch. You have to really want to do it to be able to get through and pass your boards. But I can assure you that if you commit and pay your dues, the financial rewards once you're done are well worth it.

Apparently I need to rethink emergency medicine and look into vet dentistry...

 

[jmo1012]

Apparently I need to rethink emergency medicine and look into vet dentistry...

Hah yeah you will never make that in emergency except maybe where cost of living is outrageous, so then it's no different than making a 'normal' salary

 

[LetItSnow]

Hah yeah you will never make that in emergency except maybe where cost of living is outrageous, so then it's no different than making a 'normal' salary

I wouldn't be so sure about that.

I mean, I cleared $140k my first full year out as a non-boarded ER in the Midwest working mostly primary doc at 5 of our 7 hospitals doing about 36-50 hr work weeks. The docs working primary at our busiest hospital (where I worked only second doc shifts not making production, aside from one primary shift) are easily clearing $225k doing 3-shift weeks.

 

[DVMDream]

I wouldn't be so sure about that.

I mean, I cleared $140k my first full year out as a non-boarded ER in the Midwest working mostly primary doc at 5 of our 7 hospitals doing about 36-50 hr work weeks. The docs working primary at our busiest hospital (where I worked only second doc shifts not making production, aside from one primary shift) are easily clearing $225k doing 3-shift weeks.

Where do I send my resume?

 

[LetItSnow]

Where do I send my resume?

To me! I will put it in the appropriate place.

 

[DVMDream]

To me! I will put it in the appropriate place.

This way you really can send me those 3AM otitis cases....

 

[jmo1012]

I wouldn't be so sure about that.

I mean, I cleared $140k my first full year out as a non-boarded ER in the Midwest working mostly primary doc at 5 of our 7 hospitals doing about 36-50 hr work weeks. The docs working primary at our busiest hospital (where I worked only second doc shifts not making production, aside from one primary shift) are easily clearing $225k doing 3-shift weeks.

That is very exciting news!

 

[MDB74]

I wouldn't be so sure about that.

I mean, I cleared $140k my first full year out as a non-boarded ER in the Midwest working mostly primary doc at 5 of our 7 hospitals doing about 36-50 hr work weeks. The docs working primary at our busiest hospital (where I worked only second doc shifts not making production, aside from one primary shift) are easily clearing $225k doing 3-shift weeks.

Wow, that is significantly higher than the numbers I've seen both from publications and vets I've worked for. Definitely encouraging to hear. Maybe NC just pays less with the glut of vets here.

 

[pooter]

I wouldn't be so sure about that.

I mean, I cleared $140k my first full year out as a non-boarded ER in the Midwest working mostly primary doc at 5 of our 7 hospitals doing about 36-50 hr work weeks. The docs working primary at our busiest hospital (where I worked only second doc shifts not making production, aside from one primary shift) are easily clearing $225k doing 3-shift weeks.

*growls angrily from the land of DC-suburbs-cost-of-living and post-internship semi-poverty*
*soothes self with memory of doing a f.b. surgery for 1.5K all included*

On a serious note, what's this "second doc" vs. "primary doc" stuff? They pay production on certain shifts? Or you worked shifts where you happened to be managing mostly in-patients, and so made less production?

 

[LetItSnow]

That is very exciting news!

Wow, that is significantly higher than the numbers I've seen both from publications and vets I've worked for. Definitely encouraging to hear. Maybe NC just pays less with the glut of vets here.

I'm not trying to say it's average, or ... anything like that. And I might be making $140-ish, but I'm not making that $200+ and probably only 5-7 of our 35-40ish doctors are. I lucked into a good job in a busy ER that pays pretty well; but I don't think it's necessarily representative. My point was really just to say that hey, you CAN do pretty well without board certification.

But for sure, specialization is likely going to put you in a higher pay bracket.

*growls angrily from the land of DC-suburbs-cost-of-living and post-internship semi-poverty*
*soothes self with memory of doing a f.b. surgery for 1.5K all included*

On a serious note, what's this "second doc" vs. "primary doc" stuff? They pay production on certain shifts? Or you worked shifts where you happened to be managing mostly in-patients, and so made less production?

$1.5k - I just can't picture that. Even doing a gastric foreign body via endoscope can run $800-$1200 for me. I can't do a FB surgery for ... maybe a quick 'n easy one on a cat that goes home 8 hours later I could do for $2000, but most FBs are are $3000+.

Our practice is complicated because we have 3 rural hospitals and 4 suburban hospitals ... 2 (both suburban) are 24x7 ... 5 never have more than 1 doctor on duty, 2 hospitals have 2 doctors on during certain hours... It just all makes our pay structure a bit weird.

Simplified, we get a base hourly pay or 25% of production, whichever is higher. At our hospitals with two doctors, one is considered 'primary' and gets credit for ALL production during that shift. The other doctor is considered 'secondary' and gets only an hourly rate - but it is a significantly higher hourly rate, and their pay comes directly out of the 'primary' doctor's paycheck. Second doctor only does receiving (no in-patient, except for cases they hospitalize themselves, and then they round in the primary doctor at the end of their shift), primary doctor has all the in-patients.

Our second-doctor shifts are basically the high-throughput times: 5pm-midnight weekdays, and 7am-3:30 and 3:30-midnight on weekends. So the benefit of second doctor is you work a shorter shift, don't have to be overnight, and get paid a higher hourly rate. The downside is you never really make 'big bucks' because you're not getting production. The benefit of primary doctor is that you get production for two doctors so over the course of an entire year you'll make considerably more, but the downside is that you are overnight and you take the risk that if a shift is dead you just paid that second doctor to sit there and do nothing.

I enjoy working some second doctor shifts - it's good for me as a newer doctor to work side-by-side with our most experienced docs - and I worked a ton in 2016 (but am not working many any more). I wouldn't want it to be my 'regular' gig, because the shorter shifts mean more work-days per month, and the lack of production pay puts a cap on your income.

 

[Doktor Timo]

The AVMA did run the numbers a few years back and found that specialists, due to their eventual higher salary, do in the long run eventually make up the money they missed out on during their internship/residency years. On the other hand, if you just do an internship and don't specialize it takes around 8 years to make up the lost income from that one year of internship.

I found that encouraging because it's nice to know that if you DO decide to pursue your passion in a specialty you at least aren't making a nonsensical decision financially. But the income can't be the primary motivation. There are definitely other, less intense ways to make money in this profession.

 

[jmo1012]

I'm not trying to say it's average, or ... anything like that. And I might be making $140-ish, but I'm not making that $200+ and probably only 5-7 of our 35-40ish doctors are. I lucked into a good job in a busy ER that pays pretty well; but I don't think it's necessarily representative. My point was really just to say that hey, you CAN do pretty well without board certification.

But for sure, specialization is likely going to put you in a higher pay bracket.



$1.5k - I just can't picture that. Even doing a gastric foreign body via endoscope can run $800-$1200 for me. I can't do a FB surgery for ... maybe a quick 'n easy one on a cat that goes home 8 hours later I could do for $2000, but most FBs are are $3000+.

Our practice is complicated because we have 3 rural hospitals and 4 suburban hospitals ... 2 (both suburban) are 24x7 ... 5 never have more than 1 doctor on duty, 2 hospitals have 2 doctors on during certain hours... It just all makes our pay structure a bit weird.

Simplified, we get a base hourly pay or 25% of production, whichever is higher. At our hospitals with two doctors, one is considered 'primary' and gets credit for ALL production during that shift. The other doctor is considered 'secondary' and gets only an hourly rate - but it is a significantly higher hourly rate, and their pay comes directly out of the 'primary' doctor's paycheck. Second doctor only does receiving (no in-patient, except for cases they hospitalize themselves, and then they round in the primary doctor at the end of their shift), primary doctor has all the in-patients.

Our second-doctor shifts are basically the high-throughput times: 5pm-midnight weekdays, and 7am-3:30 and 3:30-midnight on weekends. So the benefit of second doctor is you work a shorter shift, don't have to be overnight, and get paid a higher hourly rate. The downside is you never really make 'big bucks' because you're not getting production. The benefit of primary doctor is that you get production for two doctors so over the course of an entire year you'll make considerably more, but the downside is that you are overnight and you take the risk that if a shift is dead you just paid that second doctor to sit there and do nothing.

I enjoy working some second doctor shifts - it's good for me as a newer doctor to work side-by-side with our most experienced docs - and I worked a ton in 2016 (but am not working many any more). I wouldn't want it to be my 'regular' gig, because the shorter shifts mean more work-days per month, and the lack of production pay puts a cap on your income.

I've never heard of anyone making that much so while I don't expect it's anywhere near normal, it's nice to know it exists (outside of dc, nyc, la, etc.)

 

[RadRadTerp]

But in NYC....do they adjust for COL?

Yeah, the starting salaries for GPs here are about 10-15k over the national median and I have seen listings for ER vets that start above six figures. Of course, if you're spending $2k/month in rent, then you're paying at least $1k more per month than people in most of the rest of the country so it all evens out. I was underpaid at my first job in Long Island, right outside NYC, and I thought it was decent pay at the time because it looked good on paper, but after taking care of bills I was barely getting by. Was very happy when I left that new grad mill after 8 months.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

The AVMA did run the numbers a few years back and found that specialists, due to their eventual higher salary, do in the long run eventually make up the money they missed out on during their internship/residency years. On the other hand, if you just do an internship and don't specialize it takes around 8 years to make up the lost income from that one year of internship.

I found that encouraging because it's nice to know that if you DO decide to pursue your passion in a specialty you at least aren't making a nonsensical decision financially. But the income can't be the primary motivation. There are definitely other, less intense ways to make money in this profession.

I wonder if they included academia in this, though. Professor positions range from 80-120k (most of the time), and most profs have at least board cert if not a research degree on top of that.

I have a hard time believing that I'll be making it up, myself. I went from 135k in debt to 200k over the course of residency and PhD (7-8 years post DVM total), and I won't be making much more than an established GP vet in a lucative area who started working right out of school.

So there ya go @LetItSnow you'll always make more $ than me unless I luck out and get tenure

 

[pooter]

$1.5k - I just can't picture that. Even doing a gastric foreign body via endoscope can run $800-$1200 for me. I can't do a FB surgery for ... maybe a quick 'n easy one on a cat that goes home 8 hours later I could do for $2000, but most FBs are are $3000+.

In fairness, it only happened once and it was a 6 month old kitten who came to us with all the pre-op diagnostics from the rDVM and went home about 12 hours later.

 

[nyanko]

I wonder if they included academia in this, though. Professor positions range from 80-120k (most of the time), and most profs have at least board cert if not a research degree on top of that.

I have a hard time believing that I'll be making it up, myself. I went from 135k in debt to 200k over the course of residency and PhD (7-8 years post DVM total), and I won't be making much more than an established GP vet in a lucative area who started working right out of school.

So there ya go @LetItSnow you'll always make more $ than me unless I luck out and get tenure

hahahah kill me pls