99th percentile on STEP 1 with a MCAT of 21?

[Braveheart]

well my friend has no idea because he feels that he can study a year and make a 99th percentile. I know that its possible. However he made a 21 on his MCAT and his GPA is sub 3.0. He is getting ready to attend a carribbean medical school and feel that he will score that so that he can transfer his second year to a US medical school. I don't know but it might be possible to make a 4.0 in the Carribbean but I think the USLME is a different story. He said that its easy to transfer out of the Carribbean to a US medical school. He is a US citizen. Whats yall take on it?

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[organichemistry]

well my friend has no idea because he feels that he can study a year and make a 99th percentile. I know that its possible. However he made a 21 on his MCAT and his GPA is sub 3.0. He is getting ready to attend a carribbean medical school and feel that he will score that so that he can transfer his second year to a US medical school. I don't know but it might be possible to make a 4.0 in the Carribbean but I think the USLME is a different story. He said that its easy to transfer out of the Carribbean to a US medical school. He is a US citizen. Whats yall take on it?

i'd say the odds are against him. big time. fact is, he is probably in the 5th percentile or worse of all medical students in the united states.

now, consider he is attending a school that will not prepare him as much for the boards as other schools. if he can move even to the 20th percentile, that would be a remarkable achievement.

only time will tell.

prediction: borderline 1st/2nd quartile of his own class and score in the 20th percentile on step 1.

 

[Braveheart]

how possible is it to transfer from a carribbean medical to the united states. He told me a person from Ross transferred to Harvard. But then i wonder why would a person that could get into Harvard go to ross in the first place. He makes me feel like going to a carribbean medical school. He is telling me that residencies don't care about where u went to medical school, if he has a 99th percentile and he claim that he will score it, then he can get any residencies he want coming out of a carribbean school. the reason I am asking these question is that he is trying to convince me to go to a carribbean medical school with him.

 

[organichemistry]

how possible is it to transfer from a carribbean medical to the united states. He told me a person from Ross transferred to Harvard. But then i wonder why would a person that could get into Harvard go to ross in the first place. He makes me feel like going to a carribbean medical school. He is telling me that residencies don't care about where u went to medical school, if he has a 99th percentile and he claim that he will score it, then he can get any residencies he want coming out of a carribbean school. the reason I am asking these question is that he is trying to convince me to go to a carribbean medical school with him.

it is true that if you are at the top of your class and blow the boards out of the water, and maybe do research, you can get into most if not all residencies out there.

however, going to a caribbean school if you have been accepted elsewhere would be a disservice to yourself. i wouldn't do it.

 

[deuist]

My money is on the lower side. The USMLE is a standardized test, just like the SAT and MCAT. Unless the 21 was a fluke, I doubt that he'll be spectacular on this exam.

 

[YouDontKnowJack]

i would never listen to anyone with a 2.x gpa and an mcat score that low.
that's total sh#t.

nuff said.

 

[dmitrinyr]

i'd say the odds are against him. big time. fact is, he is probably in the 5th percentile or worse of all medical students in the united states.

now, consider he is attending a school that will not prepare him as much for the boards as other schools. if he can move even to the 20th percentile, that would be a remarkable achievement.

only time will tell.

prediction: borderline 1st/2nd quartile of his own class and score in the 20th percentile on step 1.

It is these type of responses that show the general view of US allopathic med students towards caribbean medical students. Most of these people don't know enough about the carib med schools yet make statements like "the school will NOT prepare him as much for the boards as other schools" or "people that score 20's on mcat CANNOT do well on the boards". I attend SGU in grenada and over the past 5 years at least we have had a 90% first time pass rate for Step 1 usmle. Numerous times (some of which i personally spoken to) SGU students (and students from other carib or foreign med schools like Ross, AUC, etc.) have scored in the 90th percentile on the boards and yes these are the same students that had sh*tty gpa or 20's on the mcat. It is not only possible but common. Yes I do agree that a person w/ a 21 on the mcat will have a hard time getting a score to put him in the 99th percentile in step 1 but that applies to everyone. Also, doesn't really matter what his score is on the boards, he will have almost no chance of transfering out of a carib med school into US school. I think each year we have like 2-4 people transfer out.

Just trying to clarify some points

dmitri

 

[Winged Scapula]

how possible is it to transfer from a carribbean medical to the united states. He told me a person from Ross transferred to Harvard. But then i wonder why would a person that could get into Harvard go to ross in the first place. He makes me feel like going to a carribbean medical school. He is telling me that residencies don't care about where u went to medical school, if he has a 99th percentile and he claim that he will score it, then he can get any residencies he want coming out of a carribbean school. the reason I am asking these question is that he is trying to convince me to go to a carribbean medical school with him.

Your friend is a bit optimistic. While getting a great score on Step 1 and doing well in your coursework will make things easier, it is a fact that some residencies and programs will not even look at applications from IMGs.

Those programs that do may have higher standards or requirements from IMGs (ie, requiring ECFMG certification before application, higher scores, etc.). Competitive programs (e.g., Plastics, Derm) have very few numbers of IMGs - they get more than enough applications from stellar US grads. Those few IMGs that get one of these spots tend to be all around stellar, went to the Caribbean because while they failed to get into the US they still had a good undergrad record (these more competitive programs often ask for undergrad transcripts and MCAT scores - a , 3.0 and 21 will not impress anyone despite the Step 1 score), or have worked with the particular program and impressed them.

It is NOT easy to transfer from any medical school to another, let along a foreign medical school to a US school. Hundreds, perhaps thousands try each year and only a handful are successful. That doesn't mean your friend shouldn't try but he shouldn't be so sure that it will happen for him when so many others have tried and failed.

There are plenty of SDN users who are current or former students at Ross and other Caribbean schools and I doubt they will tell you or your friend any different. It is possible to get a good residency position, even in a competitive field, but to assume this will be the case, to state that one could "get any residency he wants", and will be able to transfer after 2nd year is simply not accurate.

Your friend might also want to consider what he is going to tell US PDs he was doing while he was taking that year off to study for the USMLE. His score won't be nearly as impressive when they realize he didn't do anything but study for a year when his other colleagues (AMG and IMG) only had a few weeks or months and some were able to get the same score. A year off to study and not do any clinical medical work isn't very highly regarded.

You might find more answers (and accurate ones) to your questions in the International Forums so I'll move this post there.

 

[SanDiegoSOD]

This individual scored below the 30th percentile on the MCAT. Does he seriously think he can score substantially better than that on the boards, considering his competition is among the top-half MCAT test takers? It's not like his competition is easier now that he's in medical school. While I'm sure your friend is just trying to look on the brightside, I think he's likely setting himself up for a big dissapointment.

 

[berkeleyboy]

Its actually possible to get 4.0 from a carib school, get a 99 on step 1, and transfer out to a US medical school. How likely is this? Not likely really. First off, let me tell you guys, since I'm about to start my 3rd year at a carib school and I remember.....every single person that comes down there thinks that they shouldn't be there and they are somewhat better than every else is. Everyone thinks they're going to be leagues beyond every other student and destroy their boards. well...first exams come and reality sets in. Sure there are a good amount of genious' down there who finally decided to apply themselves and these are the guys setting the curves, hitting 250+ on their boards, and possibly transfering out if they apply. Ur friend might be one of these guys or girls but....the way ur friend is thinking right now is a very narrow perspective many, if not all of us had, when starting down at SGU. Now adays, my class at a whole is more humble and understands that to get a 99 requires not only extreme hard work during the basic science years. IT also requires having a decent conceptual understanding for taking standardized tests. And to actually get a 99th percentile...please...thats like 3 SDs from the mean....thats like a 275 or 280...ridiculous....

 

[berkeleyboy]

It is these type of responses that show the general view of US allopathic med students towards caribbean medical students. Most of these people don't know enough about the carib med schools yet make statements like "the school will NOT prepare him as much for the boards as other schools" or "people that score 20's on mcat CANNOT do well on the boards". I attend SGU in grenada and over the past 5 years at least we have had a 90% first time pass rate for Step 1 usmle. Numerous times (some of which i personally spoken to) SGU students (and students from other carib or foreign med schools like Ross, AUC, etc.) have scored in the 90th percentile on the boards and yes these are the same students that had sh*tty gpa or 20's on the mcat. It is not only possible but common. Yes I do agree that a person w/ a 21 on the mcat will have a hard time getting a score to put him in the 99th percentile in step 1 but that applies to everyone. Also, doesn't really matter what his score is on the boards, he will have almost no chance of transfering out of a carib med school into US school. I think each year we have like 2-4 people transfer out.

Just trying to clarify some points

dmitri

according to organic chemist's signature....he's only a pre-med. A pre-med that posts his over all and science gpa on his signature.

 

[Braveheart]

I need him to read these posting because I been telling him that those are false hope. Yet I don't think that carribbean schools are any different from US schools. When it comes down to it I think most patient dont ask where u went to medical school. I think all you all post are very true and realistic. I don't want him to get false hope and told him not to rush it. He is a smart guy but I just think that getting 99 percentile or 250 + on the Step I is quite impossible.

 

[dmitrinyr]

I need him to read these posting because I been telling him that those are false hope. Yet I don't think that carribbean schools are any different from US schools. When it comes down to it I think most patient dont ask where u went to medical school. I think all you all post are very true and realistic. I don't want him to get false hope and told him not to rush it. He is a smart guy but I just think that getting 99 percentile or 250 + on the Step I is quite impossible.

NOT impossible, but very difficult regardless from what medical school you received your training. As I said before, it has been and will continue to be done by caribbean medical students (hope one of those will be me) just proving that it's the person and not the medical school that will tell more about what type of a medical student and doctor you will be.

dmitri

 

[Shangal]

anything is possible. The nice thing about med school is that everyone is equal, just tell him to study his ass off and he'll do fine. The hard part is actually having the discipline to keep on studying. if that is not a problem, then med school will be a cake walk.

 

[beanbean]

Just to clarify: Your friend would not transfer to a US school his 2nd yr. He would not take Step I until after 2nd year and then need to apply to US schools if he wanted the score to be considered as part of his application. BTW what school is he planning on attending? As many students will confirm, there are some very good Caribbean schools and some fairly poor ones. I hope he has researched his choice well.

 

[gschl1234]

well my friend has no idea because he feels that he can study a year and make a 99th percentile. I know that its possible. However he made a 21 on his MCAT and his GPA is sub 3.0. He is getting ready to attend a carribbean medical school and feel that he will score that so that he can transfer his second year to a US medical school. I don't know but it might be possible to make a 4.0 in the Carribbean but I think the USLME is a different story. He said that its easy to transfer out of the Carribbean to a US medical school. He is a US citizen. Whats yall take on it?

Has your friend considered studying 1 year (or a few months) for the MCAT and retaking? If your friend can take some time off and do nothing but study for the MCAT, I'm sure he/she'll get a much better score.

 

[Braveheart]

Just to clarify: Your friend would not transfer to a US school his 2nd yr. He would not take Step I until after 2nd year and then need to apply to US schools if he wanted the score to be considered as part of his application. BTW what school is he planning on attending? As many students will confirm, there are some very good Caribbean schools and some fairly poor ones. I hope he has researched his choice well.

He is plan on going to Ross SOM. Which is consider the second best medical school in the carribbean. He has a conditional acceptance to Ross first and he has to do 3 months of classes (which cost like 10,000 for 3 months). He must make above a 3.0 to get into Ross for this fall. The main reason why i think he didnt get in (he is a smart guy but need to apply himself) is that he had like 24 withdrawals on his transcript . I am more realistic and I know that I need post bacc to build on my confidence. He tried to convince me to got to Ross but turn it down (going overseas doesnt attract me).

 

[organichemistry]

He is plan on going to Ross SOM. Which is consider the second best medical school in the carribbean. He has a conditional acceptance to Ross first and he has to do 3 months of classes (which cost like 10,000 for 3 months). He must make above a 3.0 to get into Ross for this fall. The main reason why i think he didnt get in (he is a smart guy but need to apply himself) is that he had like 24 withdrawals on his transcript . I am more realistic and I know that I need post bacc to build on my confidence. He tried to convince me to got to Ross but turn it down (going overseas doesnt attract me).

what do you mean the main reason he didn't get in was 24 withdrawals? he could have 0 withdrawals... and with a sub 3.0 GPA and 21 MCAT probably not get any acceptances. honestly, he's lucky he was accepted, even at a caribbean school.

 

[berkeleyboy]

He is plan on going to Ross SOM. Which is consider the second best medical school in the carribbean. He has a conditional acceptance to Ross first and he has to do 3 months of classes (which cost like 10,000 for 3 months). He must make above a 3.0 to get into Ross for this fall. The main reason why i think he didnt get in (he is a smart guy but need to apply himself) is that he had like 24 withdrawals on his transcript . I am more realistic and I know that I need post bacc to build on my confidence. He tried to convince me to got to Ross but turn it down (going overseas doesnt attract me).

24 withdrawls! wow, and I thought I was bad with 6 or 7 Ws. Tell ur friend good luck.

berk

 

[Shah_Patel_PT]

My money is on the lower side. The USMLE is a standardized test, just like the SAT and MCAT. Unless the 21 was a fluke, I doubt that he'll be spectacular on this exam.

I currently know 3 students at my caribbean school in the current term who all scored above 250 on step one. The majority of the class is yet to take the test.

 

[kalix]

This individual scored below the 30th percentile on the MCAT. Does he seriously think he can score substantially better than that on the boards, considering his competition is among the top-half MCAT test takers? It's not like his competition is easier now that he's in medical school. While I'm sure your friend is just trying to look on the brightside, I think he's likely setting himself up for a big dissapointment.

Keep in mind that different subject material is covered on the USMLE in comparison to the MCAT. There is no physical science on the USMLE, while on the MCAT there obviously is. I think we need more information in order to evaluate the chances of friend scoring significantly higher on the USMLE. Physical sciences was the worst section for me on the MCAT, however, biological and verbal was much more doable. Therefore, I too am predicting a significantly higher USMLE score based on this reasoning
And as far as GPA is concerned, anyone with at least a 100 IQ can get a 4.0. It's all about work ethic and time management, be it in high school, undergrad, grad, med, etc....

 

[KNightInBlue]

I attend SGU in grenada and over the past 5 years at least we have had a 90% first time pass rate for Step 1 usmle. Numerous times (some of which i personally spoken to) SGU students (and students from other carib or foreign med schools like Ross, AUC, etc.) have scored in the 90th percentile on the boards

Let me preface this by saying it is NOT intended to start a flame war. I just wanted to confirm this statement made by a friend - "Carib schools maintain such a high pass rate (sometimes higher than US schools!) because they only allow certain ppl from the class to take it. As in, the ppl who have consistently done well and are almost sure to pass are allowed to take it, but the rest are made to wait and improve their performance." Is this true?

Please don't start replying with statements like "this is exactly the kind of slightful thinking US med students have regarding the carib". I am not trying to smear anyone or anything. I am just curious to see if this is true.

Appreciate any informed replies,

Cheers

 

[Shah_Patel_PT]

It is just like a normal Bell shaped distribution BUT with extremes at both the ends!

 

[jenjas]

Wow, every so often I read a thread and I have to respond. Organic chem man posted just that thread.

I don't mean to sound rude or anything, but what do you know about Step 1 and MCAT's, and med school in general. Your studying for the Dat, is that right? Hate to break the news to you pal, but Dental school is not the same as med school. Has anyone ever met a person who has been turned down from Dental school? I haven't! And making comments about SGU (or carib schools in general) not preparing you for the boards. Why don't you do your research. Guess what Alabama's Med school pass rate was a few years ago on step 1?.......................86%. SGU's is >90%. Was 94% a few years ago. They do an incredible job, and I will tell you how they do it. They pay well known Dr's or PhD's to come down to the carib for a few weeks, lecture their specialty, and pay for their lodging and food the whole time. Alot of these professor's (at least at SGU, and Im sure this applies to ROSS as well) write ??? for step 1. Peter Abrahams, who is the godfather of clinical anatomy teaches every term at SGU. Look at any respectable anatomy text book, his name will be on it. I could go on, but I won't.

So in response to your uneducated statement. Ya, carib med schools can offer you a great education. Don't get me wrong, we would love to be educated in the "real" schools in the states, but SGU was a great alternative for me. Sorry to sound a little snippy, but I have a hard time with people posting on this forum who do not do their homework. Obviously, this guy has his work cut out for him. But it can be done. I'm just curious as to what makes you an expert on medschool when your still premed (oh wait, pre-dental). You would be surpised how many people come down to the caribeean with those scores and end up scoring in the 90's on their boards. Wanna know why? Because the MCAT is useless! Its a weeding tool guys. Thats it. Those topics (besides biological sciences) have nothing to do with medicine or being a good doctor. Who cares how fast light travels......who cares what the desert tortoise eats for dinner......... I personally, I could care less what my doctors VR score was, but I do care if he passes his USMLE boards the first time.

Well....Im rambling now, so I will go.....again, sorry to be sharp, but I guess I have a soft spot for those carib grads who go through hell because they really want to be a doctor. Oh by the way.......my stats, MCAT 21, step 1 and step 2 233/94, matched number 1 choice in Anesthesiology this year. Not bad for a dumb ass with MCAT scores in the bottom, oh what was it....5%, and going to a school that wouldn't prepare me for anything......

Have a great time in Dental School.

Dr. J

 

[Shah_Patel_PT]

Wow, every so often I read a thread and I have to respond. Organic chem man posted just that thread.

I don't mean to sound rude or anything, but what do you know about Step 1 and MCAT's, and med school in general. Your studying for the Dat, is that right? Hate to break the news to you pal, but Dental school is not the same as med school. Has anyone ever met a person who has been turned down from Dental school? I haven't! And making comments about SGU (or carib schools in general) not preparing you for the boards. Why don't you do your research. Guess what Alabama's Med school pass rate was a few years ago on step 1?.......................86%. SGU's is >90%. Was 94% a few years ago. They do an incredible job, and I will tell you how they do it. They pay well known Dr's or PhD's to come down to the carib for a few weeks, lecture their specialty, and pay for their lodging and food the whole time. Alot of these professor's (at least at SGU, and Im sure this applies to ROSS as well) write ??? for step 1. Peter Abrahams, who is the godfather of clinical anatomy teaches every term at SGU. Look at any respectable anatomy text book, his name will be on it. I could go on, but I won't.

So in response to your uneducated statement. Ya, carib med schools can offer you a great education. Don't get me wrong, we would love to be educated in the "real" schools in the states, but SGU was a great alternative for me. Sorry to sound a little snippy, but I have a hard time with people posting on this forum who do not do their homework. Obviously, this guy has his work cut out for him. But it can be done. I'm just curious as to what makes you an expert on medschool when your still premed (oh wait, pre-dental). You would be surpised how many people come down to the caribeean with those scores and end up scoring in the 90's on their boards. Wanna know why? Because the MCAT is useless! Its a weeding tool guys. Thats it. Those topics (besides biological sciences) have nothing to do with medicine or being a good doctor. Who cares how fast light travels......who cares what the desert tortoise eats for dinner......... I personally, I could care less what my doctors VR score was, but I do care if he passes his USMLE boards the first time.

Well....Im rambling now, so I will go.....again, sorry to be sharp, but I guess I have a soft spot for those carib grads who go through hell because they really want to be a doctor. Oh by the way.......my stats, MCAT 21, step 1 and step 2 233/94, matched number 1 choice in Anesthesiology this year. Not bad for a dumb ass with MCAT scores in the bottom, oh what was it....5%, and going to a school that wouldn't prepare me for anything......

Have a great time in Dental School.

Dr. J

Ross has very good professors as well.

Our Micro professor Dr. Hawley is the author of High Yield Microbiology as well as the Kaplan lecture book for the same subject.

Author of our text on Biochemistry is by Meisenberg who also teaches it. These are just a few of the profs we have had.

 

[Skip Intro]

He said that its easy to transfer out of the Carribbean to a US medical school. He is a US citizen. Whats yall take on it?

Well, your friend is wrong, even with a "99th percentile" (and I assume he means a 99 USMLE 2-point score conversion from the three-point score, which is not a percentile).

The only student I personally know who successfully transferred to a U.S. school had a 220/89 on Step 1. So, obviously his Step score had nothing to with it. I've said it before and I'll say it again, Step scores are WAY overrated in terms of overall importance. They don't help people "rule in" to residencies, transfers, etc. They may cause you to "rule out", however. Think about what I mean by that.

In the end, the best bet is that if you plan on attending a Caribbean school, also plan on finishing at same. If you can't contend with that proposition, don't go in the first place. Transfers back to the U.S. are far from automatic, and a high board score guarantees nothing.

-Skip

 

[VentdependenT]

. I personally, I could care less what my doctors VR score was, but I do care if he passes his USMLE boards the first time.

Dr. J

A heated but solid post Dr. J.

Congrats on the match!

Desert Tortoise...ROFL

BTW: "Healthy tortoises have enormous appetites! Growing grass, weeds, dandelions, alfalfa, nopales (Opuntia cactus), and rose and hibiscus flowers are excellent food sources."
http://www.tortoise.org/general/descare.html

 

[jenjas]

A heated but solid post Dr. J.

Congrats on the match!

Desert Tortoise...ROFL

BTW: "Healthy tortoises have enormous appetites! Growing grass, weeds, dandelions, alfalfa, nopales (Opuntia cactus), and rose and hibiscus flowers are excellent food sources."
http://www.tortoise.org/general/descare.html

Thanks Vent.............I always enjoy a good read on the tortoise.

 

[organichemistry]

well jenjas... you are just further proving my point.

all i was stating is that he had his work cut for him at best. the odds are so unlikely this student can do what he intends on doing...

and it sure is odd that you "don't mean to sound rude or anything..." yet repeatedly bashed the profession of dentistry. didn't know anybody who got rejected from dental school, huh? well, you could have been one yourself had you applied. hate to break it to you, but with a 21 MCAT, chances are your DAT wouldn't have been off the charts either... at least not on the high end. but it doesn't make you any less of a physician because of it.

i'm well aware that the island medical schools are fine and do well in preparing people for the boards... but guess what? it is quite rare, actually... 1 in 100, too score in the 99th percentile anywhere. but when you consider he is going to be going up against students at stanford, duke, wash u, vandy, harvard, yale, etc..... the list goes on and on and on... well, his chances are remote.

stated goals in the thread:
4.0 GPA - doable, but he will obviously have to change a lot of habits which can be difficult to do.
99th percentile step 1 - very, very unlikely. you didn't do it so don't use yourself as an example. there's a big difference in the 90th percentile and the 99th percentile.
transfer into a u.s. school - once again, very difficult to do. even with great grades and boards, there isn't a whole lot of transferring going on. yes, it happens... but not all that frequently.

and of course i'm no expert on medical schools. but i did go through 18 months of undergrad on the premed track... not to mention the enormous amounts of lurking on SDN.

and i will have fun in dental school, as will i have fun in the dentistry field. i look forward to practicing when i am 24 years old instead of 30. that's just one of the reasons i left premed.

 

[KNightInBlue]

Let me preface this by saying it is NOT intended to start a flame war. I just wanted to confirm this statement made by a friend - "Carib schools maintain such a high pass rate (sometimes higher than US schools!) because they only allow certain ppl from the class to take it. As in, the ppl who have consistently done well and are almost sure to pass are allowed to take it, but the rest are made to wait and improve their performance." Is this true?

Please don't start replying with statements like "this is exactly the kind of slightful thinking US med students have regarding the carib". I am not trying to smear anyone or anything. I am just curious to see if this is true.

Appreciate any informed replies,

Cheers

Anyone? Is this true? If so, what is your opinion towards it? good or bad?

 

[deltamed]

Anyone? Is this true? If so, what is your opinion towards it? good or bad?

My opinion is that his chances are pretty much 0.

I know plenty of people who study constantly and can't hope to get 99th% on the USMLE. People in US med schools who study >10 hours per day for 6 months before the test.

To get 99th% you have to be a top test taker naturally, work really hard, and be lucky on test day.

Btw I doubled his mcat score and would be surprised/happy to hit a 99% on the usmle. I certainly wouldn't take it for granted.

 

[dmitrinyr]

Let me preface this by saying it is NOT intended to start a flame war. I just wanted to confirm this statement made by a friend - "Carib schools maintain such a high pass rate (sometimes higher than US schools!) because they only allow certain ppl from the class to take it. As in, the ppl who have consistently done well and are almost sure to pass are allowed to take it, but the rest are made to wait and improve their performance." Is this true?

Please don't start replying with statements like "this is exactly the kind of slightful thinking US med students have regarding the carib". I am not trying to smear anyone or anything. I am just curious to see if this is true.

Appreciate any informed replies,

Cheers

This is not really true. In SGU you have to keep a 2.25 GPA not to be decelerated and have to repeat classes. So everyone who has such a GPA and gets through the first 2 years will be allowed to take the Step 1 of USMLE. This is how they make sure that you are able to pass Step 1, "if you can pass their exams, then you can pass the USMLE" given appropriate amount of studying and test taking ability. They don't just take the top 25% of the class, or something like that and have them take the test and then say that "we had 94%" pass the test. Everyone (at least to my knowledge) who passes the first 2 years, takes the USMLE.

 

[jenjas]

well jenjas... you are just further proving my point.

all i was stating is that he had his work cut for him at best. the odds are so unlikely this student can do what he intends on doing...

and it sure is odd that you "don't mean to sound rude or anything..." yet repeatedly bashed the profession of dentistry. didn't know anybody who got rejected from dental school, huh? well, you could have been one yourself had you applied. hate to break it to you, but with a 21 MCAT, chances are your DAT wouldn't have been off the charts either... at least not on the high end. but it doesn't make you any less of a physician because of it.

i'm well aware that the island medical schools are fine and do well in preparing people for the boards... but guess what? it is quite rare, actually... 1 in 100, too score in the 99th percentile anywhere. but when you consider he is going to be going up against students at stanford, duke, wash u, vandy, harvard, yale, etc..... the list goes on and on and on... well, his chances are remote.

stated goals in the thread:
4.0 GPA - doable, but he will obviously have to change a lot of habits which can be difficult to do.
99th percentile step 1 - very, very unlikely. you didn't do it so don't use yourself as an example. there's a big difference in the 90th percentile and the 99th percentile.
transfer into a u.s. school - once again, very difficult to do. even with great grades and boards, there isn't a whole lot of transferring going on. yes, it happens... but not all that frequently.

and of course i'm no expert on medical schools. but i did go through 18 months of undergrad on the premed track... not to mention the enormous amounts of lurking on SDN.

and i will have fun in dental school, as will i have fun in the dentistry field. i look forward to practicing when i am 24 years old instead of 30. that's just one of the reasons i left premed.

Hey O chem man. Do you have a website or toll free number so that I can get some more career advice from your bundle of knowledge. I mean you do know alot right? All those hours of surfing the SDN and those 18 months of Premed, make you an expert in your field ( wait, your still in undergrad..). Ya, I'm sure my DAT would of been steller. Don't you guys have a section on there where you put blocks or shapes together. I'm sure I would have done well on that one, I loved lego's and lincoln logs as a kid!

Actually my young boy, I knew a lot of people with scores in the 15's on there DAT who got into UCONN (not a shabby school) and Creighton. So hey, I probably could have got in to Dental school with an MCAT of 21 huh? But that is besides the point.

So its quite rare for students in the caribbean to score in the 99th %? What did you say, 1 in 100. Hhhmm lets see, Todd got a 256 on both steps...Myriam got a 252, and transfered to Drexel, Taylor got a 256, he went to DUKE for ER, Shahanna got a 261, should I go on...........I know plenty of people who scored in the 99%. Almost makes me sick how they do it. It probably happens more than you think. My score was actually the lowest of all my friends.........so 1 in 100 is a little off my boy. And yes, they did compete with the U Wash, The Vandy's, the Dukes........but I'm sure there is some other reason why they did so well, because as you say....its a 1% chance to score in the 99% right? Im not so much defending this "poster child" that you are refering to, than your hard thought educated data you post on here. I'll give you credit, you have a lot of guts posting on here with such limited experience. Reading SDN does not make you an expert on who will do well in medical school and who will not. I agree with you (and did agree with you my last post) that this guy has a hard road ahead of him.....but cut the guy some slack, let him decide if he can do it or not. You just worry about putting those blocks together nice and neat so you can clean my teeth someday. Hell, I might even need dentures now that I'm 30. Do you do that too, or do you have to do a fellowship for that?

So you sold out to the dental field because you didn't want to be 30 when you practiced medicine? _ussy! (Can I say that on here?) Ya, you actually do belong in the dental field. Wouldn't want to put to much pressure or adversity in front of you now, would we. Good luck soliciting your patients. I always find the guys that send fliers door to door tend to get the better business.

Wow 24 and practicing Dentistry (wait you have to get in yet). You've got the whole world in your hand son. But, c'mon seriously. Now lets be honest with ourselves.......you really couldn't handle the pressure of premed could you? Its a good thing too, cause premed is like preschool to medschool. I think you made a good decision. Those extra 6 years are a killer. I have wrinkes now and need glasses from all that reading. I have far more respect for someone who goes to the caribbean to become a doctor than someone who wimps out because he couldn't hack premed or that "it was just too long".

Don't you have homework to do or something. I hear pre-dental is a killer. So put the key board down son, get a coffee and find a nice cushy spot in the library and bring your parents home a good report card, ok! Let the grown ups talk about grown up stuff, and one day when your a big boy, and graduated from college, you can participate too.

Anyway, my work is done here. I am signing off. Can't waste anymore of my precious time, now that I'm 30 and just starting residency. If I were only 24 and a Dentist....................Oh well, a boy can dream can't he..........


Dr J.

 

[KNightInBlue]

Actually my young boy, I knew a lot of people with scores in the 15's on there DAT who got into UCONN (not a shabby school) and Creighton. So hey, I probably could have got in to Dental school with an MCAT of 21 huh? But that is besides the point.

Sorry to interrupt the pissfight b/w organicchemistry and jenjas. This is WAY off topic, but I couldn't resist. A 21 on the MCAT is NOT the same as a 21 on the DAT. The MCAT is out of 45, which puts a 21 somewhere along the 40th percentile. The DAT is out of 30, and a 21 on the DAT is usually about 99th percentile. Pretty big difference if you ask me.

Basically, your friends who scored a 15 on the DAT would not have scored a 15 on the MCAT. It'd be more like a 27 (equivalent percentiles wise of course).

I know, I know, way off topic, but like I said, I couldn't resist. I teach both the MCAT and DAT for Kaplan and hate it when ppl mix them up.

Cheers.

P.S. What's with the repetitive use of "son" and "young boy" in your post?

 

[jenjas]

Sorry to interrupt the pissfight b/w organicchemistry and jenjas. This is WAY off topic, but I couldn't resist. A 21 on the MCAT is NOT the same as a 21 on the DAT. The MCAT is out of 45, which puts a 21 somewhere along the 40th percentile. The DAT is out of 30, and a 21 on the DAT is usually about 99th percentile. Pretty big difference if you ask me.

Basically, your friends who scored a 15 on the DAT would not have scored a 15 on the MCAT. It'd be more like a 27 (equivalent percentiles wise of course).

I know, I know, way off topic, but like I said, I couldn't resist. I teach both the MCAT and DAT for Kaplan and hate it when ppl mix them up.

Cheers.

P.S. What's with the repetitive use of "son" and "young boy" in your post?

No need to apologize Knight In blue. I knew that, I was just being facetious. Interupt anytime you want. Atleast your "qualified" to post such data, if you teach for kaplan. I have no idea about the DAT, I just know its not as tough as the MCAT. Atleast that was what I was told by friends who took both. I could be wrong though. Thanks for the insight. Oh.....the use of Son.......again, I'm being Facetious. I'm an old geezer to this guy. I'm 30. He doesn't want to end up as old as me, that is why he went to Dental School. Its not a pissfight, were just expressing ourselves. Someone will probably close this thread anyway. This kind of stuff doesn't help anybody out. I should have resisted the temptation, but I'm weak in my old age.

 

[Skip Intro]

it is quite rare, actually... 1 in 100, too score in the 99th percentile anywhere.

For the umpteenth time, the USMLE 2-point score is not a percentile!! And, even if it was, it wouldn't mean it's a "1 in 100" chance, because percentile scores are not necessarily normally distributed. Score distribution is usually Gaussian (unless there is a problem with the test design) and the percentile ranks the score, not the number of test takers (e.g. 1000 people could've scored at the 25th percentile, 3000 people could have scored in the 50th percentile, 1000 people in the 75th percentile, and only 1 people in the 99th%... meaning that that one person's score is more like a 1 in 5000 score). Still, all of that doesn't matter anyway because the two-point score is not a percentile score!!!

Got it? Sheesh!

-Skip

 

[box29]

For the umpteenth time, the USMLE 2-point score is not a percentile!! And, even if it was, it wouldn't mean it's a "1 in 100" score, because percentile scores are not necessarily normally distributed. Score distribution is usually Gaussian (unless there is a problem with the test design) and the percentile ranks the score, not the number of test takers (e.g. 1000 people could've scored at the 25th percentile, 3000 people could have scored in the 50th percentile, 1000 people in the 75th percentile, and only 1 person in the 99th%... meaning that that one person's score is more like a 1 in 5000 score). Still, all of that doesn't matter anyway because the two-point score is not a percentile score!!!

Got it? Sheesh!

-Skip

Jeeez...I guess people aren't reading or doing their research. Why is it that most people think it is a percentile...just because of the 99? Oy! Visit the NBME site.

 

[box29]

SKIP is right...It is NOT a percentile! The 2 digit score is NOT a percentile!

Here is the link for everyone!

http://www.usmle.org/FAQs/faqusmlescores.htm

ENJOY! and the 2 digit score is NOT a percentile!

 

[organichemistry]

i never said the 2 digit score was a percentile ranking. but the OP said 99th percentile... so i figured i'd go ahead and jump in.

the chances of scoring in the 99th percentile on the USMLE are 1%, if all students are equal. 1 in 100 people do it. duh

and jenjas... i love the way you insinuate that i couldn't hack it as a pre-med, much less a med student. i was doing just fine, thank you. and i love the way you think i'm such a ***** for dropping out of it. guess what... i didn't like the profession. i thought i would, but as it turns out there were very few appealing things to me in medicine. helping people was great, but after that, there just wasn't much of a draw for me. dentistry suits me a lot better. there are plenty of DMDs and DDSs out there that could have gone the MD route but simply chose something they liked more.

one problem i notice with a lot of MD's (not all, not even the majority... just... a lot) is that they feel they are the smartest people on the planet and no matter what anybody else has an education in, they feel as if they are better because other people couldn't cut it in med school. some MD's just don't realize not all of us want to be physicians. there are people selling real estate, accountants, optometrists, teachers, lawyers, chefs, engineers, etc etc etc who are plenty smart enough to get into and get through medical school. they just happened to not want to go down that route.

a little humility never hurt.

 

[Skip Intro]

the chances of scoring in the 99th percentile on the USMLE are 1%, if all students are equal. 1 in 100 people do it. duh

Did you read my post above? Even if they did report the percentile score (which they don't), a 99% represents a 2.33 standard deviation from the mean - NOTHING MORE! So, odds are - despite stipulating that if all students are equal and "1 in 100 people do it" - it doesn't really mean anything. And, the NBME agrees. The bulk of the students will fall into +/- 1 SD. Therefore, it is not a "1 in 100" shot to get a 99th percentile, because it is only a measure of your individual score across the distribution and takes into account where you fall against everyone else's score. Likewise, a 99th percentile may actually encompass a wide range of scores at the extreme top end. So, one person's 288 on Step 1 may be a 99th percentile whereas another person's 265 on Step 1 may also be a 99th percentile. You actually have, based on odds (which is what I think you're confusing the concept with here), a much higher likelihood of falling within the normal distribution since your score is reflected as part of the entire distribution. Therefore, there is no real meaning there. And it is potentially confusing to speak of "percentiles" especially given different test-taking pools. That's also why the NBME abandoned reporting it. In essence, I believe you are trying to infere "odds" from a percentile distribution - these are two completely different concepts. It's that superficial understanding (and implicit arrogance) demonstrated by your statement that worries me.

Regardless, all of this is moot. You can't know if you got a 99th percentile, because THE USMLE DOES NOT REPORT PERCENTILES!!! (Geebus! How many times do we have to say it? )

-Skip

 

[Shah_Patel_PT]

Hey Buddy,

You might want to look through your undergraduate statistics notes. I agree with skip_intro...."It is not a "1 in 100" shot to get a 99th percentile"

Only the top 1% of test takers get the USMLE score of approximately 263+ which means you can say you are in the 99 percentile.

How many people do you guys know who had above 263+ in the last 5 years??? (260, 261 and 262 are all in 95 percentile range)

 

[steven1174]

3

Ya, I'm sure my DAT would of been steller. Don't you guys have a section on there where you put blocks or shapes together. I'm sure I would have done well on that one, I loved lego's and lincoln logs as a kid!


So you sold out to the dental field because you didn't want to be 30 when you practiced medicine? _ussy! (Can I say that on here?) Ya, you actually do belong in the dental field. Wouldn't want to put to much pressure or adversity in front of you now, would we. Good luck soliciting your patients. I always find the guys that send fliers door to door tend to get the better business.

Wow 24 and practicing Dentistry (wait you have to get in yet). You've got the whole world in your hand son. But, c'mon seriously. Now lets be honest with ourselves.......you really couldn't handle the pressure of premed could you? Its a good thing too, cause premed is like preschool to medschool. I think you made a good decision. Those extra 6 years are a killer. I have wrinkes now and need glasses from all that reading. I have far more respect for someone who goes to the caribbean to become a doctor than someone who wimps out because he couldn't hack premed or that "it was just too long".

Don't you have homework to do or something. I hear pre-dental is a killer. So put the key board down son, get a coffee and find a nice cushy spot in the library and bring your parents home a good report card, ok! Let the grown ups talk about grown up stuff, and one day when your a big boy, and graduated from college, you can participate too.

Anyway, my work is done here. I am signing off. Can't waste anymore of my precious time, now that I'm 30 and just starting residency. If I were only 24 and a Dentist....................Oh well, a boy can dream can't he..........


Dr J.

JENJA,

Talking about yourself and your recent accomplishment of landing your #1 choice residency from your humble beginnings at a carib school with a MCAT score of 21 is fine....

BUT then to go off and insult an entire professional field (i.e. Dentistry) is just LAME.

DON'T BE A TOOL.

-steve

 

[Braveheart]

I just think my friend doesn't understand how difficult it is to achieve a high score on the USLME. He doesn't realize that very few people transfer from the carribbean to US schools much less transfer from one US school to the other. However, I do feel that it is possible for him to stay at Ross U. and land a Ortho residency somewhere in the states.

BTW-Nice debate, u guys are great!

 

[medcurious]

Just to clarify: Your friend would not transfer to a US school his 2nd yr. He would not take Step I until after 2nd year and then need to apply to US schools if he wanted the score to be considered as part of his application. BTW what school is he planning on attending? As many students will confirm, there are some very good Caribbean schools and some fairly poor ones. I hope he has researched his choice well.

hey im at uconn too.... but im going to be a junior and just getting into med school....should be fun....I figured id ask u this....is Uconn a respectable school if i wantr to get into something as competitive as dermatology?

 

[Pikevillemedstudent]

I just think my friend doesn't understand how difficult it is to achieve a high score on the USLME. He doesn't realize that very few people transfer from the carribbean to US schools much less transfer from one US school to the other. However, I do feel that it is possible for him to stay at Ross U. and land a Ortho residency somewhere in the states.

BTW-Nice debate, u guys are great!

Again not impossible(like the 99%), but the odds of matching ortho are against him. I am sure there are a few ortho matches each year from carib. schools but it is not easy. It is a difficult match for US grads as well.

 

[USMedStudent]

Bad news, folks. Passing scores have been raised up over the years... Few years ago they were in the 170s. Now they are both 182 (or are they still?). I heard they would be 185 soon. Darn, in another generation, passing scores may be 220. Then my Step 2 scores would be short by 1. Questions are getting longer and longer... Looking at Step 1, 2 questions now, I don't have too much confidence at all that I would pass if I had to retake it (I'm an Ivy alumnus with 34 on MCAT (10, 12, 12, T)). Back then, questions were like "what nerve innervates wrist extension," (or description of someone with waiter's tip if they wanted to be fancy) now you need to tell all trunks and cords of brachial plexus apart in your sleep because they may point to any part of it and ask you what deficitS would a patient suffer from having that part cut.

But if everyone listens to good advice, they'd do better than they think. I would recommend people stay faithful to Kaplan review books, Qbank, Clinical Vignettes) if they want a good foundation. Only attempt other sources AFTER mastering Kaplan, which is not easy. If you go to a Caribbean school, you may need a whole full year to prepare for Step 1, 6 months for Step 2. Congrats if you do better than that, you're above average. If you go to an Australian school, you may need 2 whole full years for each, if you ever make it at all on your 6th attempts on each. Time has changed, but many Australian schools have stayed the same, frozen in time, blissful in their ignorance. That's why their TRUE records are so dismal.

I would recommend USMLEWORLD, MKSAP 13 for Step 2. MKSAP is my most-hidden secret. I read it 10 times for Step 2, so when I did Step 3 and now that I'm preparing for IM Board it's just a blast. The secret is not studying a lot, just studying smartly, get the right stuff the first time, and stick with them. Wavering through many sources only makes you confused, and the Board strives on confused examinees. Simple things like "rule of 3" (at least 3 pieces of evidence to pick an answer) would carry you through too many questions you wouldn't believe. For ALL questions, it's the NUMBER of pieces of evidence, NOT the most obvious 1 or 2, that really matters. All evidence is equally good. There's no single evidence that makes or breaks a case. It's the NUMBER of evidence that makes the difference. Example, 3 weak but correct ones are better than 2 obvious (also correct) ones. Obvious things are actually usually wrong.

In 2005, Buzzwords are ALMOST ALWAYS wrong. 90% of right answers are masked. Once you've done about 5,000 questions, you'll develop a sense of LOGIC for right answers. Don't use common sense, use LOGIC. Common sense varies, even over time, but LOGIC stays the same. NBME loves to fail people with common sense in test taking. Medicine is NOT yours, at least for the monent, and the least for your own common sense. Medicine is what you're told to learn, to accept, not what your common sense tells you to think, ESPECIALLY on ethics. There's no room for individual thinking. There's only room for Evidence, determined by the Board, not by you the lowly know-it-all examinees.

Simple rules like the above are plenty on Kaplan. Each of them would give you a few right answers over those that don't read it. Good luck to you all.

IM-PGY2
I don't work for Kaplan, okay. I just say the LOGICS here.

 

[Braveheart]

great post USMEDSTUDENT, my friend is going to Ross and he wants to know how likely is it for him to transfer to US Med school such as Drexel, Wake, Tulane, etc. He said that he is going to transfer to a US med school. is he realistic

 

[Bevo]

how likely? not likely at all. I'm going through the process now.

I think Drexel had 3 spots? Tulane had 0, GW had 0. A lot comes down to step 1 score too.

 

[mdmccallum]

Here's another testimony for the unlikelyhood of transfering. I was top of my class with a very good step 1 score (don't remember it off hand, its been a few years). I had some connections at Tulane (father is alumnus) and was offered to transfer if I repeated the 2nd year ( may have had something to do with $ or may not have). Well, I had clinicals set up in Detroit and was on my way so I decided to stick it out. I am extremely happy that I stayed. Anyway, who in their right mind would want to repeat any year of med school. I was the only one in my clas even close to transfering. So tell your friend good luck he/she is going to need it. I saw alot of those students with equally high asperations when I entered school and I got to admit, they struggled at best.

On a side note. I don't know how US schools prepare their students for the boards but the carib schools really concentrate on them. This probably has something to do with the pass rates being higher than some expect. The prof's are experienced and the books are the same. Tulane actually told me that they did not concentrate on the boards the first 2 years. True or not.

 

[omar06]

Wow, every so often I read a thread and I have to respond. Organic chem man posted just that thread.

I don't mean to sound rude or anything, but what do you know about Step 1 and MCAT's, and med school in general. Your studying for the Dat, is that right? Hate to break the news to you pal, but Dental school is not the same as med school. Has anyone ever met a person who has been turned down from Dental school? I haven't! And making comments about SGU (or carib schools in general) not preparing you for the boards. Why don't you do your research. Guess what Alabama's Med school pass rate was a few years ago on step 1?.......................86%. SGU's is >90%. Was 94% a few years ago. They do an incredible job, and I will tell you how they do it. They pay well known Dr's or PhD's to come down to the carib for a few weeks, lecture their specialty, and pay for their lodging and food the whole time. Alot of these professor's (at least at SGU, and Im sure this applies to ROSS as well) write ??? for step 1. Peter Abrahams, who is the godfather of clinical anatomy teaches every term at SGU. Look at any respectable anatomy text book, his name will be on it. I could go on, but I won't.

So in response to your uneducated statement. Ya, carib med schools can offer you a great education. Don't get me wrong, we would love to be educated in the "real" schools in the states, but SGU was a great alternative for me. Sorry to sound a little snippy, but I have a hard time with people posting on this forum who do not do their homework. Obviously, this guy has his work cut out for him. But it can be done. I'm just curious as to what makes you an expert on medschool when your still premed (oh wait, pre-dental). You would be surpised how many people come down to the caribeean with those scores and end up scoring in the 90's on their boards. Wanna know why? Because the MCAT is useless! Its a weeding tool guys. Thats it. Those topics (besides biological sciences) have nothing to do with medicine or being a good doctor. Who cares how fast light travels......who cares what the desert tortoise eats for dinner......... I personally, I could care less what my doctors VR score was, but I do care if he passes his USMLE boards the first time.

Well....Im rambling now, so I will go.....again, sorry to be sharp, but I guess I have a soft spot for those carib grads who go through hell because they really want to be a doctor. Oh by the way.......my stats, MCAT 21, step 1 and step 2 233/94, matched number 1 choice in Anesthesiology this year. Not bad for a dumb ass with MCAT scores in the bottom, oh what was it....5%, and going to a school that wouldn't prepare me for anything......

Have a great time in Dental School.

Dr. J

DAYUMNNNNN. WAY TO SHUT SOMEONE UP.