4:57pm page to the ER for a soft admit?

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Wonderful call so far. Got two patients where the ER physician literally did nothing but open up a patient's chart, saw that they were operated on within two weeks, and placed a consult for "post-operative complaints." And the patients said I was the first physician to see them. AWESOME! :thumbup:

Man, if your institution has an ED that is as ****ty as you make it out to be, I'd be surprised if the other services in the hospital aren't lacking as well.

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It's quite possible, but I'm curious: you're saying that based on any one division of a hospital you can extrapolate what the other divisions are like?
 
Anyway, it would be nice if all ER docs got decent feedback on their admits, so they can at least determine their own signal-to-noise ratios. I hear that some houses are pretty good about that, and I commend them, but I have yet to rotate at such a place.

I've tried to give feeback before, and for good decisions they've made, for example when we've stented a chest pain admit with a good story. Most of the time they just kind of give me a blank stare and say, "ok." Doesn't seem to be much interest on their part once the patient goes upstairs. Some, of course, appreciate the info and seem to want to know, but the majority I've interacted with do not.

-The Trifling Jester
 
Doesn't seem to be much interest on their part once the patient goes upstairs. Some, of course, appreciate the info and seem to want to know, but the majority I've interacted with do not.

True story: I used to try to talk to ER guys in terms of telling them stuff like "here's why this diagnosis doesn't fit" or "if you suspected this, this test would be nice to get for these reasons." And they'd just grin and go "yeah, yeah, uh huh ....can you see this guy in room 15?" And that guy would have the same stuff you were JUST talking to them about and they clearly didn't care about any type of change in their practice habits. So I stopped doing that because, frankly, I'm not interested in wasting my time since it would be the same as me standing next to a wall and talking to it.

Literally now all I'll do is go to the ER guy and go "we're admitting this person" or "you can discharge them from our standpoint" and they're completely satisfied with that. It's clearly the only thing they care about. Like, I know everyone thinks I get a kick out of ragging on ER physicians, but honestly that's the way they are.
 
Man, if your institution has an ED that is as ****ty as you make it out to be, I'd be surprised if the other services in the hospital aren't lacking as well.

While this might be true, I don't think you can make that assumption, to be honest. That's like saying that because your program has one resident who is an idiot, that it's necessarily a bad program or that all the residents in that program are idiots. It could be....or it might not be.

I think that, especially in smaller community hospitals without a lot of residents, there is a lot of motivation for most services to be better, but there are a lot of factors that motivate the ER to be worse.

For example, in my hospital, there are 2-3 competing cardiology groups. If one group is terrible (grumbles at every consult, does half-assed workups, snaps at the nurses), then there is nothing stopping the hospitalist/PCP services from consulting the competing group. If one PCP does nothing but refer EVERYTHING out, and never starts a workup, then the specialists rarely send their patients back - they have every right to recommend a different PCP (and they often do).

There is also an ER attending who routinely pages the hospitalists (or even in some cases, the on-call resident) and literally asks them to come and "lay eyes" on the patient because she's "not sure if the patient can go home yet." This would make sense if the hospitalist or the resident had ever seen the patient before, but this is always for a patient who hasn't seen a doctor in 15 years. While the idea that an attending is asking a RESIDENT to come down for a "second opinion" is kind of amusing at 11 AM, it's significantly less funny at 3 AM.

Now, is anyone going to tell this ER attending to stop doing this? No, of course not. Because if she's not sure if the patient should go home, and the hospitalist refuses to come down and "lay eyes," then she'll just admit them. It's usually a BS admission, so the patient's LOS is pretty short, the hospital gets paid, and makes money. No hospital administrator is going to pull her aside and tell her to stop calling residents at 3 AM for stupid reasons. Since she's an ER attending, she doesn't have to answer or explain every single one of her actions. If the residents complain about this (and oh, we have), we just get told not to be obstructionist and to "play nice" with other departments. The hospitalists complain, but since they work shift work, they don't care as much. The only way that she's going to be told that this is unacceptable behavior is if Medicare tightens down on what kinds of admissions they're willing to pay for. But until that happens, she's going to keep pulling this kind of crap, and getting away with it.
 
If one PCP does nothing but refer EVERYTHING out, and never starts a workup, then the specialists rarely send their patients back - they have every right to recommend a different PCP (and they often do).

.

most specialists in private practice wouldn't have a problem with this- we appreciate the referrals
 
To be fair, I did not intend for my original primal scream here to be a sweeping indictment of EM as a field. Almost everyone here has rotated through the ER at some point, myself included, and we have some idea of what you guys struggle with.

But tossing up worthless admits with absolutely no regard for colleagues up on the floors... that is what bugs me. A lot of ER docs apparently forgot a long time ago what life is like on the floors and on the units, and apparently regard them as the proper place to rehydrate the routine AGE or "stabilize" the new-onset just-barely-DM2 with polydipsia x5 months, with sugars in the mid-200s and pristine VBGs, BMPs and urine ketones. (yes, both happened to our service today.)

And the earlier discussion of head CTs hit home. Where I went to med school, they will CT your head for any. reason. at. all. Or none at all. Punched in the face? Head CT. MVA, no matter how minor, no matter what your history? Head CT. HA? Head CT. Stubbed your toe and have a history of epilepsy? Head CT.

I don't know, but I wouldn't be surprised if this is because the ER chief happened to miss an epidural once like 10 years ago or something and now is obsessed with irradiating the heads of anyone who comes through his doors. It is amazing how many such "rules" come into place because of one single bad outcome.

Anyway, it would be nice if all ER docs got decent feedback on their admits, so they can at least determine their own signal-to-noise ratios. I hear that some houses are pretty good about that, and I commend them, but I have yet to rotate at such a place.

...ok that is just seriously embarassing to our field if we're admitting ppl with sugars under 300 just cause and blatantly ignoring ED society guidelines and recommendations regarding hyperglycemia and closed head injuries. Though did you lay eyes on the AGE on the floor or in the ED? Curious if they were quite severe in the ED despite 3-4 liters with continued vomiting and not tolerating PO trials downstairs, but were fine by the time they hit the floor.

I ask that because I'm embarassingly waiting to go to work today to see someone complain about the sickler I admitted last night. 3 hours after admission, after repeated pain med boluses and copious rehydration over several hours, 10 minutes before going to the floor, he was suddenly down to 4/10 pain. I really wanted to reverse the admit, but it was way too late (And maybe for the best cause OMFS was looking into whether he had a facial abscess on a separate note)....Sometimes patients get cured when they leave the ED and hit the floors. Though happens more often in peds than in IM, which has a culture of accepting extended observation admits for failure to tolerate PO, abnormal vitals, etc..
 
Now, is anyone going to tell this ER attending to stop doing this? No, of course not. Because if she's not sure if the patient should go home, and the hospitalist refuses to come down and "lay eyes," then she'll just admit them. It's usually a BS admission, so the patient's LOS is pretty short, the hospital gets paid, and makes money. No hospital administrator is going to pull her aside and tell her to stop calling residents at 3 AM for stupid reasons. Since she's an ER attending, she doesn't have to answer or explain every single one of her actions. If the residents complain about this (and oh, we have), we just get told not to be obstructionist and to "play nice" with other departments. The hospitalists complain, but since they work shift work, they don't care as much. The only way that she's going to be told that this is unacceptable behavior is if Medicare tightens down on what kinds of admissions they're willing to pay for. But until that happens, she's going to keep pulling this kind of crap, and getting away with it.

And this is the crux of the problem. Literally the WORSE an ER physician practices, the better it is for the hospital. And because of that, nothing ever changes. Our ER guys love this one: they'll call someone and say "yeah, we got this guy ...when WE saw him he had a facial droop, but I don't know." Talk about cover your ass. Then if you come down and see the guy and there's nothing going on, they're like "well, that's how it was when we saw him" when in fact THEY NEVER SAW THE GUY. They just placed the consult based on what some EMS guy told them when they called it in or what the registrar said the chief complaint was. But they got someone to come and see their patient and actually take a history and perform a physical and document "this patient has nothing going on." Frickin' nothing the ER does are they accountable for.
 
...ok that is just seriously embarassing to our field if we're admitting ppl with sugars under 300 just cause and blatantly ignoring ED society guidelines and recommendations regarding hyperglycemia and closed head injuries. Though did you lay eyes on the AGE on the floor or in the ED? Curious if they were quite severe in the ED despite 3-4 liters with continued vomiting and not tolerating PO trials downstairs, but were fine by the time they hit the floor.

I ask that because I'm embarassingly waiting to go to work today to see someone complain about the sickler I admitted last night. 3 hours after admission, after repeated pain med boluses and copious rehydration over several hours, 10 minutes before going to the floor, he was suddenly down to 4/10 pain. I really wanted to reverse the admit, but it was way too late (And maybe for the best cause OMFS was looking into whether he had a facial abscess on a separate note)....Sometimes patients get cured when they leave the ED and hit the floors. Though happens more often in peds than in IM, which has a culture of accepting extended observation admits for failure to tolerate PO, abnormal vitals, etc..

Well, I'm now on another ED rotation, so I'm seeing it from your end again. When you're getting buried, I can definitely see the urge to just admit and be done with it rather than d/c someone who is only *probably* non-surgical and risk the lawsuit.

And it's really attending-dependent. The least-competent attendings at our ER are the most likely to admit. Maybe on some level, that's a good thing... since they suck as doctors, it's probably better that they're being conservative so that the medical or surgical services will catch the obvious gallbladder or torsion that they were oblivious to.

Still. It's ridiculously sucktackular when you're on-service to have to catch all these soft admits. When I'm working in the ER, I'm acutely conscious of how it takes my colleagues on-service take 5x the time and paperwork to see
the patients compared to me. I just wish that more full-time ER docs were conscious of this as well.
 
Well, I'm now on another ED rotation, so I'm seeing it from your end again. When you're getting buried, I can definitely see the urge to just admit and be done with it rather than d/c someone who is only *probably* non-surgical and risk the lawsuit.

And it's really attending-dependent. The least-competent attendings at our ER are the most likely to admit. Maybe on some level, that's a good thing... since they suck as doctors, it's probably better that they're being conservative so that the medical or surgical services will catch the obvious gallbladder or torsion that they were oblivious to.

Still. It's ridiculously sucktackular when you're on-service to have to catch all these soft admits. When I'm working in the ER, I'm acutely conscious of how it takes my colleagues on-service take 5x the time and paperwork to see
the patients compared to me.
I just wish that more full-time ER docs were conscious of this as well.

Maybe instead of focusing on work-minimization, you should focus on doing your job well. Sometimes this means calling consults when you realize it will be unpopular. And as I've already pointed out, for every consult/admission that a service complains about, they are doing the exact same thing to some other service. I used to get worked up over people complaining about the ER for creating extra work, but then I rotated on all those other services and realized that every one of them didn't hestitate for even a millisecond to call some BS/CYA consult.
 
Maybe instead of focusing on work-minimization, you should focus on doing your job well. Sometimes this means calling consults when you realize it will be unpopular.

:thumbup:
 
I don't mind the ER nowadays, since easy consults really just are "car payment" consults. But man, in residency I hated the ER. I trained at HCMC, where medicine was the only service that the ED had admitting privledges to. Because of that we really were dumped on a bit. Dispo problems? Admit to medicicne. Surgical problem with history of DM AND HTN? Better admit to medicine. New onset liver failure with normal LFT's? Admit to medicine. Flashburn patient with history of COPD? Admit to Burn unit, medicine primary with burn consult.

It would be terrible around shift change. Get paged to the ER, and after talking to the first intern/pa/med student signing out a patient hear "hold on, someone else wants to talk to you....."


i guess I'm venting, but my point is: in practice, I don't mind these since I get paid. But as a resident I hated these since it was just more -- in my mind, pointless -- work.

 
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