33 year old thinking of applying for tier 1 MBA

[evert1de101]

I'm a 33 year old full time locums doc thinking of applying for tier 1 MBA programs with the goal of going into entrepreneurial work (opening FSEDs) or switching industries completely and doing consulting or i-banking. This was my initial dream coming out of college and my hesitancies are my age and the opportunity cost of dumping six figures into tuition. Any fellow EM docs have experience with this, whether they decided for or against it?

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[Groove]

The only docs I know with MBAs are career CMG administrative FMDs or wannabe career CMG administrative execs who climb the proverbial ladder hoping to make it to regional director and then called home to the non clinical CMG mothership.

I once sat one of them down and picked his brain on the merits of the MBA and he just kind of make circular arguments about being able to communicate with hospital admin in their own language and/or always being able to jump into a CMO role if the opportunity ever presented itself. I've never known any EM docs who were able to obtain an MBA (from anywhere) and make a lateral jump into any field leveraging the MBA/MD in any capacity that allowed them to make any comparable compensation to what they commanded as a pit doc.

If you want to open a FSED /urgent care you certainly don't need the MBA and you don't even need to give up EM, just find some venture capitalists or partners and go do it.

 

[Groove]

Is a "Tier 1" MBA program like a "powerhouse" EM residency?

 

[BoardingDoc]

Is a "Tier 1" MBA program like a "powerhouse" EM residency?

No, in the business world it actually matters. Kinda like how going to a top 10 law school actually matters, unlike going to the residency of the Überdocs.

 

[GonnaBeADoc2222]

The only docs I know with MBAs are career CMG administrative FMDs or wannabe career CMG administrative execs who climb the proverbial ladder hoping to make it to regional director and then called home to the non clinical CMG mothership.

I once sat one of them down and picked his brain on the merits of the MBA and he just kind of make circular arguments about being able to communicate with hospital admin in their own language and/or always being able to jump into a CMO role if the opportunity ever presented itself. I've never known any EM docs who were able to obtain an MBA (from anywhere) and make a lateral jump into any field leveraging the MBA/MD in any capacity that allowed them to make any comparable compensation to what they commanded as a pit doc.

If you want to open a FSED /urgent care you certainly don't need the MBA and you don't even need to give up EM, just find some venture capitalists or partners and go do it.

I searched hard for a reason to do this. The two things that convinced me not to were:

1) admin fellowship director (who is md/mba) at top academic site telling me not to do it

2) md/mba colleague of mine telling me they are still in competition for the same roles in the institution as non-mbas

If it were a golden ticket to a highly paid non clinical career i would have totally done it. Instead it seems like an expensive ticket to nowhere.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

I can speak as somebody who did finance after undergrad (think HF/PE type work). A lot of these firms are going to want to see relevant work experience prior to getting an MBA. However, banking or consulting can be done without prior experience of coming from an M7 program. Banking and consulting aren’t necessarily sustainable careers for most as the hours are worse than residency (especially banking). You would probably make less than you would as an attending for 3 or 4 years but if you get promoted, you could easily make much more. VPs can easily make 750k+. MDs upwards of 1.5 million however this isn’t necessarily likely as the median age of a Goldman MD is 35 and it doesn’t vary too much across the street.

For entrepreneurship, school prestige will matter far less.

 

[RustedFox]

I can speak as somebody who did finance after undergrad (think HF/PE type work). A lot of these firms are going to want to see relevant work experience prior to getting an MBA. However, banking or consulting can be done without prior experience of coming from an M7 program. Banking and consulting aren’t necessarily sustainable careers for most as the hours are worse than residency (especially banking). You would probably make less than you would as an attending for 3 or 4 years but if you get promoted, you could easily make much more. VPs can easily make 750k+. MDs upwards of 1.5 million however this isn’t necessarily likely as the median age of a Goldman MD is 35 and it doesn’t vary too much across the street.

For entrepreneurship, school prestige will matter far less.

What does "MD" indicate in this context?
Certainly not "Medical Doctor".

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

What does "MD" indicate in this context?
Certainly not "Medical Doctor".

Managing Director

 

[ERdoc12468]

I'm a 33 year old full time locums doc thinking of applying for tier 1 MBA programs with the goal of going into entrepreneurial work (opening FSEDs) or switching industries completely and doing consulting or i-banking. This was my initial dream coming out of college and my hesitancies are my age and the opportunity cost of dumping six figures into tuition. Any fellow EM docs have experience with this, whether they decided for or against it?

To OP - PM me if you want to chat. It depends on what exactly you want to do in terms of non-clinical careers. B school isn't for everyone, but if you go to a top 5, it can open up a lot of opportunities you wouldn't have access to otherwise.

I took this route and never looked back.

 

[RustedFox]

I'll be the A-hole here.

I would have limited respect for myself if I went this route, and at the end of the day I had to look back at what I did and said "I paperworked and (sneer) the projections and indicators all (buzzword) that ... Whatever."

"Ok, pointdexter", I would have to say to myself.

 

[Franzd'Epinay]

I'm a 33 year old full time locums doc thinking of applying for tier 1 MBA programs with the goal of going into entrepreneurial work (opening FSEDs) or switching industries completely and doing consulting or i-banking. This was my initial dream coming out of college and my hesitancies are my age and the opportunity cost of dumping six figures into tuition. Any fellow EM docs have experience with this, whether they decided for or against it?

Being an MD and getting an MBA from an M7 school to open an FSED or go to the bottom of the ladder in iBanking seems like a huge waste of time and money. You likely don't need it to go into consulting either.

There probably is a good use for this educational path, but it's almost certainly not what you described.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

In my experience, banking is probably a better economic decision than medicine under the following circumstances

1. You start banking right after UG
2. You are going to have to pay full cost for med school
3. You are fine with working 80+ hours per week to assure that you can make it to the highest levels or can lateral to the buy side
4. You are able to work remotely (rare for banking)
5. You’re somebody who has to live in a coastal city (whether it be finance or medicine)

It becomes a more difficult equation if one is non traditional for finance, got a full scholarship to med school, or wants a stable job. Of course, finance has a higher ceiling than medicine. However, medicine is more stable in that not many analysts or associates who join banks will become VPs or managing directors. Most who don’t get buyside offers end up pivoting to corporate finance, strategy, etc. these roles make multiples less than the average attending physician.

 

[Angry Birds]

I'm a 33 year old full time locums doc thinking of applying for tier 1 MBA programs with the goal of going into entrepreneurial work (opening FSEDs) or switching industries completely and doing consulting or i-banking. This was my initial dream coming out of college and my hesitancies are my age and the opportunity cost of dumping six figures into tuition. Any fellow EM docs have experience with this, whether they decided for or against it?

I will take the dissenting view here and say two things.

First, and most importantly, nobody here can tell you whether or not this would be useful to you. It really depends on your background, strengths, passions, goals, and dreams. So, this is specific knowledge to you. Yes, everyone on this board is warranted in warning you that for the vast majority of people this may not be a smart endeavor... but you may well be the exception.

Second, I would gun for the absolute top 3 or so programs... Unlike medicine, here "powerhouse" matters in order to open doors.

 

[EctopicFetus]

I will take the dissenting view here and say two things.

First, and most importantly, nobody here can tell you whether or not this would be useful to you. It really depends on your background, strengths, passions, goals, and dreams. So, this is specific knowledge to you. Yes, everyone on this board is warranted in warning you that for the vast majority of people this may not be a smart endeavor... but you may well be the exception.

Second, I would gun for the absolute top 3 or so programs... Unlike medicine, here "powerhouse" matters in order to open doors.

I considered getting an MBA. I have a business background and continue to “dabble” in business now.

The answer to your question is what is your end goal? If it is to be a CMO IMO dont waste the dough of a top tier program. Some executive MBA type thing from your local university will be enough.

If you want to get out of clinical medicine then by all means. I think there is value in an MBA. I have done some “consulting” for Fortune 500 companies about medical devices and the like. These folks want some in house expertise but dont want to pay “doctor” money. Reality is the people who think ” I can just quit Medicine and make similar money in business” are naive and dont understand the first thing about business.

I debated getting a top notch MBA to do finance/banking/PE type stuff. I have some connections in that field and believe I could make multi generational type dough. I decided against this as I dont want to work the way those guys have to work post B school, you start lower and then rapidly make more money but 100 hour weeks weren’t for me. I dont want to travel and be away from family.

For anyone who says B school is good so you can speak the language are the dildo type people who want to think they are special. If you can speak “doctor” you can speak to your hospital admin.

to the OP, see what your goals are and then proceed. The opportunity cost is high and that is something to consider IMO.

 

[ERdoc12468]

This is a great thread and worth discussing. What I think may not be immediately apparent is there are many very accessible non-clinical careers for most ED docs that are generally more lucrative than clinical medicine. Now, these may not be for everyone but I've generally found myself very fulfilled and gratified without a lot of the BS that comes with the ER.

Investment banking is a tough sell if you're entering the industry in your mid-30s. The hours are grueling and the work can be painfully brainless. It only makes sense if you want to leverage a finance toolset to become an investor, either at a hedge fund or in private equity, neither of which typically have career paths to become true deal professionals without prior finance experience. Again, embarking on this path in your mid-30s is a tough sell and ultimately breaking into investing can be very difficult. It can be done, but the risk/benefit must be weighed. You really have to end up at a bulge bracket or elite boutique and breaking into these typically means coming out of business school.

Consulting as a mid-career exit from clinical medicine is much more reasonable and doesn't require an MBA. BCG and McKinsey hire dozens of doctors each year with no prior business experience. 1-3 years in consulting can be plenty to transition into either in investing or corporate role, both of which can be fulfilling. The downside is you take 1-2 years of decreased pay in consulting, depending on where you practice emergency medicine. But if you can take the income impact then this is a viable path with many success stories.

The MBA is worth it if you end up at a top 3-5 school, anything below this and it won't be worth the hassle. Even then, you have to know what you want going in and what you want has to generally require the stamp or network that comes with the top MBA. If you want to be an entrepreneur, the MBA isn't going to help you a ton. Few cases here are there that say otherwise, but generally speaking, it's not that helpful.

After embarking on this path, I've learned that we, as EM docs, actually have a ton of optionality and our skillset is unique and transferable to a lot of different roles in other industries. We're generally articulate, likeable, and great at making (generally good) decisions with incomplete information while processing multiple data points. I'd say our decisiveness is a serious differentiator in the corporate environment.

I wouldn't look at this a strict earnings equation but rather what you want to do with your life and what you want out of your career. There's a lot of options out there for us and it's just a matter of getting the right experience to access those opportunities.

 

[Franzd'Epinay]

What I think may not be immediately apparent is there are many very accessible non-clinical careers for most ED docs that are generally more lucrative than clinical medicine.

I don't disagree with the wider point you're making, but I think you're significantly overselling the supply/accessibility of these jobs (and likely their compensation too).

Some examples of the jobs you're thinking of would be helpful.

 

[ERdoc12468]

I don't disagree with the wider point you're making, but I think you're significantly overselling the supply/accessibility of these jobs (and likely their compensation too).

Some examples of the jobs you're thinking of would be helpful.

Good question. Let me rephrase slightly to say these jobs are highly accessible if you put in a couple years in consulting or have an MBA from a top 3-5 business school and leverage that experience immediately. You have to really take the plunge and can't treat them as a side gig while continuing to practice EM more than 2-4 times a month.

There's a whole ecosystem of VC and PE backed healthcare businesses that need real physicians in medical director or CMO roles, growth/strategy roles, etc. There's also a ton of similar jobs at established healthcare businesses, whether life sciences, med tech, services, IT enabled services, etc. Companies Alphabet, Amazon, Apple, etc have been hiring 100s of docs in their healthcare verticals. Once you establish yourself in this ecosystem, you become a known commodity and more doors open up to you. I wouldn't even bother looking at hospital admin roles or CMG leadership jobs.

I'm not saying there's enough of these jobs for every EM doc out there but there's no shortage of opportunity for a practicing doc that positions themselves well with the right skillset. Sometimes this requires a pay hit out of the gates so the sooner you make the transition the better.

I probably get outreach from 20+ docs looking for alternate career paths each month. Some can't stomach the risk or want to work less not more, in which case, I don't recommend they go down this path. For others they look at it as an investment in their long term careers, in which case there's usually a few routes they can take to get to where they want to go.

 

[Franzd'Epinay]

There's a whole ecosystem of VC and PE backed healthcare businesses that need real physicians in medical director or CMO roles, growth/strategy roles, etc. There's also a ton of similar jobs at established healthcare businesses, whether life sciences, med tech, services, IT enabled services, etc. Companies Alphabet, Amazon, Apple, etc have been hiring 100s of docs in their healthcare verticals. Once you establish yourself in this ecosystem, you become a known commodity and more doors open up to you. I wouldn't even bother looking at hospital admin roles or CMG leadership jobs.

Oh yeah, this is a whole hidden world. The people I know in this area all came into these roles in non-straightforward ways. I got the impression that business/leadership experience was more important than an MBA (although connections trump all).

I think if a physician wanted to go down this route, the most cost-effective way would be to go into a business/leadership/non-clinical job so they could put that in their CV and then use that to break in to these roles. An MBA can probably be more of a straight path (especially if you can secure an internship and make use of those connections), but that's a lot of money to pay.

 

[Angry Birds]

I wouldn't look at this a strict earnings equation but rather what you want to do with your life and what you want out of your career. There's a lot of options out there for us and it's just a matter of getting the right experience to access those opportunities.

This entire post is gold, especially this part.

 

[BreadXray]

OP, if you market your skills well, are willing to relocate, can stomach the possibility of a lower salary for the first few years ($120-200k), and have some patience for the right person to look at your CV, then it's very possible to move into the pharma/device/biotech industry without any extra schooling.

 

[AlmostAnMD]

OP, if you market your skills well, are willing to relocate, can stomach the possibility of a lower salary for the first few years ($120-200k), and have some patience for the right person to look at your CV, then it's very possible to move into the pharma/device/biotech industry without any extra schooling.

Make it seem easier than it sounds. "Find the right person" can be...taxing.

My loans are almost paid off and I'm just casually looking around...pretty dry non-clinical opportunities that I see, and most require quality certifications, etc.

 

[BreadXray]

Make it seem easier than it sounds. "Find the right person" can be...taxing.

My loans are almost paid off and I'm just casually looking around...pretty dry non-clinical opportunities that I see, and most require quality certifications, etc.

There is actually a ton of need for physicians in these industries, but the problem is that these roles have big learning curves (due to their regulated nature), so companies prefer to hire people with industry experience to avoid training them from scratch. Recruiters (who are often the first screen) know this, so they tend to just ignore your application if you have no industry background.

Occasionally, you will have a hiring manager who is personally reviewing applications and who is open to training someone who they think has potential. You can’t tell which posting this will be, so in the end it’s a numbers game. Then if you do happen to hit on one of those postings, you need to be able to market yourself the right way.

Some companies also run “fellowships” or training programs for physicians, so that’s another way in.

 

[EctopicFetus]

Good question. Let me rephrase slightly to say these jobs are highly accessible if you put in a couple years in consulting or have an MBA from a top 3-5 business school and leverage that experience immediately. You have to really take the plunge and can't treat them as a side gig while continuing to practice EM more than 2-4 times a month.

There's a whole ecosystem of VC and PE backed healthcare businesses that need real physicians in medical director or CMO roles, growth/strategy roles, etc. There's also a ton of similar jobs at established healthcare businesses, whether life sciences, med tech, services, IT enabled services, etc. Companies Alphabet, Amazon, Apple, etc have been hiring 100s of docs in their healthcare verticals. Once you establish yourself in this ecosystem, you become a known commodity and more doors open up to you. I wouldn't even bother looking at hospital admin roles or CMG leadership jobs.

I'm not saying there's enough of these jobs for every EM doc out there but there's no shortage of opportunity for a practicing doc that positions themselves well with the right skillset. Sometimes this requires a pay hit out of the gates so the sooner you make the transition the better.

I probably get outreach from 20+ docs looking for alternate career paths each month. Some can't stomach the risk or want to work less not more, in which case, I don't recommend they go down this path. For others they look at it as an investment in their long term careers, in which case there's usually a few routes they can take to get to where they want to go.

There aren’t a ton of jobs right out of b school paying 350k+. After years of working like a b I tch there are options. A slew of my friends went to Harvard and Wharton. They do very well. My closest buddy who I have known since before we were 10 makes near $1m a year doing consulting. He made good money on his path there and he can work til he is oldand make similar money forever. That being said it’s a different beast being a mid 30s or older doc with 350k in hand for under 150 hours a month and leaving to take on 150k in debt and earning 0 and then starting in the 180-220 range and having to work 80 hours a week with no respite. Throw in travel soul sucking meetings etc.

some of the other stuff here mentioned is more entrepreneurial and is hit or miss on making legit dough.

 

[jamaica jan sun princess]

Life sciences consulting. ZS Associates is a good start, but McKinsey, Bain, and Boston (MBB) also hire MDs.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

If you do this OP, I’d stay away from Trinity Partners, Back Bay Life Science Advisors, and Recon Strategy.

ZS, Clearview, Health Advances, LEK (more generalist), Clarion are pretty good. Obviously MBB is good but the cases are pretty hard (might be different for professional school grads) and pedigree will be much more important.

Life sciences consulting. ZS Associates is a good start, but McKinsey, Bain, and Boston (MBB) also hire MDs.

 

[RuralEDDoc]

Haven’t read the above replies, might be repetitive. My thought is that MBA not needed for entrepreneurship and is not a good use of time and money in preparation. Banking on the other hand, yes, could be very helpful. But you’re looking at much more than 2 years of business school in prep. Think another 3-5 years as a junior associate working crap hours. Like another residency but no one calls you doctor. Could be useful depending on your career goals but neither cheap nor easy.

 

[Kryptocoin]

MBA can be the new $100k mistake if proper planning is not done. You must see the end goal before even taking that step. You don't need an MBA to go into hospital and CMG admin. Just look up your local CMG and hospital rooster and see how many MDs have an MBA attached to their names.

As a board-certified physician, you're already an expert in something. You can leverage that in certain industries: media, pharma, consulting, and even politics.

The President of Moderna is an MD. Worth 500M. Didn't need an MBA for that.

 

[Groove]

It never fails to amaze me how many physicians think they can excel in any other industry to the top 5% or 2%. Victims of self grandiosity or are we really THAT talented?

I personally think being a doctor is way easier than excelling as a top exec in other industries... Like a banking exec or top stock broker? Damn...that sounds like a lot more work to me.

 

[BoardingDoc]

Just look up your local CMG and hospital rooster and see how many MDs have an MBA attached to their names.

Sorry, couldn't help myself.

 

[DeadCactus]

Spending your own time and money to get an MBA for anything related to clinical medicine is a waste. You already have the degree you need and the business knowledge is free. If you grow a business to the point of needing a real MBA, you're better off hiring one. If you're trying to climb the corporate ladder, you should be able to convince someone to cover an executive MBA. Neither case needs the name or network that you're investing in by doing an MBA.

If you want to pivot into a new career, then go for it. That's a quality of life decision and not a financial decision. The finances may or may not workout but that doesn't matter because your finances (generally) are going to be fine on either end. You can't compare jobs purely on hours and salary.

 

[Kryptocoin]

View attachment 357187

Sorry, couldn't help myself.

LOL.... probably an appropriate pic for that line of work.

 

[emergentmd]

OP,

I think your best path is to be true to yourself. Think deep and figure out if getting an MBA as a bridge into something non medicine related (like finance) is truly what your passion is. If it is all about money, doing an MBA would be a big mistake. If you love the studies and going into something like finance, then go ahead.

Life is not all about money and finding something you are passionate about is meaningful.

When I started getting into FSERs, I thought about doing an online MBA so I can better understand the business side. I am sure it would have helped, but many docs who started/bought into FSERs do not have an MBA. I have read/learned on the way and have a good feel for this business. If you do not have business savvy, then just hire an MBA to help you with the business side.

I have a growing and successful real estate holdings that this year will gross right at 400k and net about 150K. Closing down on another property this month. I will net right at 250K once all my note is retired. Made many mistakes but learned a bunch since I started 7 years ago. In the past year, figured/learned to do a small change in my business model and increased one property from NOI of about 15K to 40K with less headaches.

Find your passion and you will be successful with a Bank (EM work) that will fund many of your endeavors. Not many have this type of bank backing them.

 

[lp430]

To the OP, I was in your shoes 2 years ago (30 yrs old at the time). I was working fulltime locums and started studying for the GMAT with dreams of leaving the pit behind so I could attend a prestigious MBA school. The deeper I got into it, the more I realized it didn't fit into my long term goals. I didn't want to go back to school fulltime for another 2 years, accumulate more debt and work thousands of hours in an industry (consulting/banking) that I thought "sounded better". This was especially tough because I had a sibling who was getting an MBA at a top school.

I am most interested in entrepreneurial work based on past experience and other non-medical interests. That is what I am working towards now as I cut back my clinical work. As mentioned by other posters, entrepreneurial work does not require additional degrees but often does require a certain level of risk/financial tolerance.

I agree with @ERdoc12468 in that figuring out what you want out of life/career is most important and if an MBA actually aligns with that. More often than not, the cost/benefit isn't worth it. Just gotta take the leap into getting your feet wet in something else.