2019-2020 Pain Fellowship Interview Thread

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Got Em

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It's that time of year again. Good luck everyone!!!

Edit - Google Spreadsheet per @CenturionGuard - to keep track of applicant data, interviews, updates, comments, etc.

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docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1t_x8DS_AmEpePCffArjAXtFUwrHuxd97DheKH3bMgu4/edit?usp=sharing
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When does everyone plan on submitting? The opening of the application the day before Thanksgiving set me back a bit.....
 
RandomChaos said:
When does everyone plan on submitting? The opening of the application the day before Thanksgiving set me back a bit.....
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So I’m wondering this too. I’ve heard it’s not essential to submit on December 1st as programs don’t really start looking at applications immediately. Can anyone weigh in on this?
 
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I would get everything ready before Christmas. Then, you should take your mind off completely from PS, CV, and things for 2 weeks (this is key!). After New Years, read over everything one more time and submit by first week of January. That is early enough.
 
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Yeah my goal is to have it done before the holiday, otherwise I fear finding the motivation after an alcohol infused holiday may be awfully difficult...
 
Just for perspective I submitted everything late Feb. I missed on a couple programs(UCLA,UCSD) because of it. However I still had more than enough interviews and ended up matching at my top spot.
 
Trazor said:
So I’m wondering this too. I’ve heard it’s not essential to submit on December 1st as programs don’t really start looking at applications immediately. Can anyone weigh in on this?
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I submitted mid-December. Most places told me they wouldn't start looking until after the holidays, but a small number of places encouraged me to apply as early as possible. Overall, I don't think it's a death sentence to wait a little but I wouldn't let it linger unless you have some major publications or application enhancers in the pipeline. Good luck!
 
I submitted early Feb and don’t feel that it affected me, with plenty of interviews and matching top choice. However, I would not recommend waiting long past that even for pubs etc. You can always contact programs with major CV updates and use it as an opportunity to express interest.
 
hello everyone! hope the cycle treats us all well. I wanted to get your input on applying for pain as a PM&R applicant.
I was particularly worried about which programs to target- i am planning to get my application in by early January. I hope it wont hurt my chances as PM&R applicant applying in january. I have been in practice for 2 years and my interest in interventional pain has grown over this period. As for LOR, should i get one from my PM&R PD and rest from my work colleagues?
thank you
 
Bounceback said:
hello everyone! hope the cycle treats us all well. I wanted to get your input on applying for pain as a PM&R applicant.
I was particularly worried about which programs to target- i am planning to get my application in by early January. I hope it wont hurt my chances as PM&R applicant applying in january. I have been in practice for 2 years and my interest in interventional pain has grown over this period. As for LOR, should i get one from my PM&R PD and rest from my work colleagues?
thank you
Click to expand...

I am a PGY3 PM&R resident also applying. From what I have been told, the PM&R PD was a letter that is required - some programs explicitly state so much, others do not but it would be an obvious omission. Regarding which programs to target, I went through and looked at every pain program which has accepted a PM&R applicant in the past as well as every program with a PM&R or non-anesthesia faculty member in place and I am applying to all of those programs. I can't comment any about applying after being in practice as I haven't had any exposure to anyone like that. Do you work in an academic setting with a pain medicine department? If so, are you able to cozy up to them and get some exposure, this might mean delaying application for a year.
 
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RaceCanyon said:
I am a PGY3 PM&R resident also applying. From what I have been told, the PM&R PD was a letter that is required - some programs explicitly state so much, others do not but it would be an obvious omission. Regarding which programs to target, I went through and looked at every pain program which has accepted a PM&R applicant in the past as well as every program with a PM&R or non-anesthesia faculty member in place and I am applying to all of those programs. I can't comment any about applying after being in practice as I haven't had any exposure to anyone like that. Do you work in an academic setting with a pain medicine department? If so, are you able to cozy up to them and get some exposure, this might mean delaying application for a year.
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thank you for your message and advice. I am in process of doing that too. I do have a loose academic affliation. I will PM you.
 
Bounceback said:
thank you for your message and advice. I am in process of doing that too. I do have a loose academic affliation. I will PM you.
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I am PM&R PGY4 who applied last year. I am sure you know, but it is going to be an uphill battle. I met few people who were in practice, but they seemed to have more complete package than I had and still struggled to get interviews.

If you went to PM&R program with some academic weight, have few pain-related research publications, and a letter from pain guy, then it might be worth applying. In other words, you must have a bit more complete application than current PGY3s to have a decent shot at matching. If you think you are lacking, I would go for 'lower-tiered' or PM&R run programs. You should also apply for PM&R Spine programs as they generally are easier and more acceptable to red/yellow flags than ACGME programs.

I would say PM&R PD letter is a must for every program. Many program's website information is outdated or lacking complete information.

Regarding programs accepting PM&R candidates, I would say it changes every year and more and more programs at least try to be 'multidisciplinary.' I got interviews from what is known as 'non-PM&R friendly' programs in the past. If it is in the region where you want to practice, then just go for it.

I know it is a bit harsh, but you are welcome to think otherwise. Just my 2 cents.
 
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Hi everyone:
I have been out of residency for 9 years but have been in academics for the past several years as an attending. I am heavily active in anesthesia research with over a dozen pubmed indexed publications and also grant funded research. I have decided to go back for a pain fellowship. Does it seem being out for these many years will b an issue considering I have all this research? Of note, my research is not pain focused but anesthesia focused...
 
pain2b said:
Hi everyone:
I have been out of residency for 9 years but have been in academics for the past several years as an attending. I am heavily active in anesthesia research with over a dozen pubmed indexed publications and also grant funded research. I have decided to go back for a pain fellowship. Does it seem being out for these many years will b an issue considering I have all this research? Of note, my research is not pain focused but anesthesia focused...
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why would you want to be a fellow after being an attending for 9 years.:owle:
 
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Painetrainin18 said:
I am PM&R PGY4 who applied last year. I am sure you know, but it is going to be an uphill battle. I met few people who were in practice, but they seemed to have more complete package than I had and still struggled to get interviews.

If you went to PM&R program with some academic weight, have few pain-related research publications, and a letter from pain guy, then it might be worth applying. In other words, you must have a bit more complete application than current PGY3s to have a decent shot at matching. If you think you are lacking, I would go for 'lower-tiered' or PM&R run programs. You should also apply for PM&R Spine programs as they generally are easier and more acceptable to red/yellow flags than ACGME programs.

I would say PM&R PD letter is a must for every program. Many program's website information is outdated or lacking complete information.

Regarding programs accepting PM&R candidates, I would say it changes every year and more and more programs at least try to be 'multidisciplinary.' I got interviews from what is known as 'non-PM&R friendly' programs in the past. If it is in the region where you want to practice, then just go for it.

I know it is a bit harsh, but you are welcome to think otherwise. Just my 2 cents.
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thanks for your message Paintrainin18. Those were useful tips!
 
pain2b said:
Hi everyone:
I have been out of residency for 9 years but have been in academics for the past several years as an attending. I am heavily active in anesthesia research with over a dozen pubmed indexed publications and also grant funded research. I have decided to go back for a pain fellowship. Does it seem being out for these many years will b an issue considering I have all this research? Of note, my research is not pain focused but anesthesia focused...
Click to expand...
Hi, i am not anesthesia but personally know someone who applied and got into pain after being an anesthesia attending for 7 years.
 
Have any of you guys heard of know anyone who applied through EM? How uphill a battle is it?


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AlvinKamara said:
Have any of you guys heard of know anyone who applied through EM? How uphill a battle is it?
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There are 2 EM to pain guys in the EM forum. @Birdstrike is very active and you've probably seen his posts. I am applying from EM this year.

I have contacted multiple fellowship directors and spoken to multiple fellows. It is very much an uphill battle. There will always be a bias if you're non-anesthesia and non-PM&R. Some programs only take Anesthesia, especially the smaller programs, or programs that take call that involves difficult nerve blocks/epidurals. Many programs didn't know that EM residents can do an ACGME pain fellowship and get boarded. With that said, it is still possible if you get involved in pain and do a pain rotation.
 
Got Em said:
There are 2 EM to pain guys in the EM forum. @Birdstrike is very active and you've probably seen his posts. I am applying from EM this year.

I have contacted multiple fellowship directors and spoken to multiple fellows. It is very much an uphill battle. There will always be a bias if you're non-anesthesia and non-PM&R. Some programs only take Anesthesia, especially the smaller programs, or programs that take call that involves difficult nerve blocks/epidurals. Many programs didn't know that EM residents can do an ACGME pain fellowship and get boarded. With that said, it is still possible if you get involved in pain and do a pain rotation.
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And apply to every single program. You need to overwhelm the longer odds, with volume. It worked for me.
 
pain2b said:
Hi everyone:
I have been out of residency for 9 years but have been in academics for the past several years as an attending. I am heavily active in anesthesia research with over a dozen pubmed indexed publications and also grant funded research. I have decided to go back for a pain fellowship. Does it seem being out for these many years will b
pain2b said:
Hi everyone:
I have been out of residency for 9 years but have been in academics for the past several years as an attending. I am heavily active in anesthesia research with over a dozen pubmed indexed publications and also grant funded research. I have decided to go back for a pain fellowship. Does it seem being out for these many years will b an issue considering I have all this research? Of note, my research is not pain focused but anesthesia focused...
Click to expand...


Pain2b..... I have been out of residency 6 years going on 7. I just matched this last cycle. It’s never too late to go back and do a fellowship so don’t be discouraged by naysayers. I thought since I am not a traditional candidate I would have a very difficult time getting interviews and matching somewhere. I was pleasantly suprised when I started getting many high quality interviews. It all boils down to the strength of your application and your motivations for returning to training. You need to have solid reasons as to why you want to return and make sure to elucidate that in your personal statement. PM me with any specific questions and I’d be happy to help in any way possible.
Click to expand...
 

hi paincrusher, that was a good message. I am in a similar position, may I PM you if possible regarding this?

thank you
 
Paincrusher I tried to PM you but it says I cannot. Do you have some restrictions that do not allow this? Please advise
 
Sorry, somehow my preferences had a privacy filter on. Either of you can PM me now.
 
pain2b said:
Paincrusher I tried to PM you but it says I cannot. Do you have some restrictions that do not allow this? Please advise
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Are you a nurse? I’m having flashbacks
 
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What is the role of your USMLE scores on this process? How heavily does it factor in the ultimate rank list?
 
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A whole lot of crickets. But, it looks like last year the first invite went out around 1/31. So, still early.....at least that's what I am telling myself.
 
RandomChaos said:
A whole lot of crickets. But, it looks like last year the first invite went out around 1/31. So, still early.....at least that's what I am telling myself.
Click to expand...

Still freaking so early. It is now you and me telling you. Relax. You will have plenty of time riding a roller-coaster. Don't hop on too early.
 
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IFeelYourPain89 said:
Any idea of what the cutoffs look like?
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I can tell you 100% that nobodies knows. It is program dependent. May even change year to year depending on applicat pool. You can ignore whoever claims that he/she knows the answer to this question.

Having said that you may wonder why the heck they use Step 1. Only thing I can 'speculate' is that PDs may need at least one objective measure that they can use to differentiate candidates from like 6 different specialties. From my observation, it definitely opened up some door for interviews (my score was ~240). My colleague from same program with similar resume (even identical number of pubs, we worked on similar projects, she had <210). We basically applied everywhere (~70). I have to say results were strikingly different. I got interview invites from >70% and she was struggling to get 8 (still good number but we applied to 70 or so). One thing I have to say is that I am pretty sure about her resume as we compared everything throughout the application cycle, but I can't say I am 100% sure that she had any other red/yellow flag hiding from me.
 
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IFeelYourPain89 said:
Does anyone know whether the UNM fellowship accepts PM&R grads? It's unclear from their website because they specify anesthesiology in several places. If it's a multidiscilplinary pain fellowship, is it a given that they take people from PM&R?
Thanks!
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Who knows? They may had some before. It may be their first year accepting PM&R resident. Spend few bucks and apply to find out.
 
If you look at the objective numbers from charting the outcomes, step 1 and step 2 scores are all over the place. I think being US MD and anesthesia still most important factors (unfortunately, I am neither).
 
chudat said:
If you look at the objective numbers from charting the outcomes, step 1 and step 2 scores are all over the place. I think being US MD and anesthesia still most important factors (unfortunately, I am neither).
Click to expand...

Hmm.. 'all over the place' doesn't mean that they aren't important. Heck, many residency specialties except for extremes like dermatology or family medicine have their step1/2 'all over the place.' Me and my friend both matched, so I guess we contributed on complicating the stats ourselves haha. I just think that matching stats leave lots to be desired. I believe they can add something more valuable (ex. interview invite/apply ratio? maybe).

First and foremost, I am not claiming that I know answer to this question. But, I am sure it opened door for me and closed door for my colleague. Average/good scores in between? Who knows. It has to be more complicated than black and white. I got similar feedback from candidates about step 1 score (and residency name value, which kind of goes hand in hand) last year, especially from PM&R peeps.

FYI, I agree that US MD and anesthesia/pm&r are definitely important.
 
Painetrainin18 said:
I can tell you 100% that nobodies knows. It is program dependent. May even change year to year depending on applicat pool. You can ignore whoever claims that he/she knows the answer to this question.

Having said that you may wonder why the heck they use Step 1. Only thing I can 'speculate' is that PDs may need at least one objective measure that they can use to differentiate candidates from like 6 different specialties. From my observation, it definitely opened up some door for interviews (my score was ~240). My colleague from same program with similar resume (even identical number of pubs, we worked on similar projects, she had <210). We basically applied everywhere (~70). I have to say results were strikingly different. I got interview invites from >70% and she was struggling to get 8 (still good number but we applied to 70 or so). One thing I have to say is that I am pretty sure about her resume as we compared everything throughout the application cycle, but I can't say I am 100% sure that she had any other red/yellow flag hiding from me.
Click to expand...

That's some great information right there
 
anyone know anything about the Mayo clinic pain fellowships or the Moffett fellowship in Tampa?
 
Some programs will have an absolute USMLE cutoff, others may use a point system - ie so many points for certain levels of USMLE score, points for pubs, points for LOR and personal statement, etc. Since the boards (ABPMR and ABA) "discourage" use of ITE/SAE scores in fellowship applications the USMLE score is the only objective measure with which to compare applicants against one another. Nobody knows which programs have an absolute cutoff. If your USMLE score is low but your ITE/SAE score and percentile is high then send the ITE/SAE score even if they didn't ask for it.
 
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IF you are board certified does your USMLE still matter?
 
pain2b said:
IF you are board certified does your USMLE still matter?
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I would say most programs probably still want USMLE because they're using the score to compare applicants. Board certification doesn't come with scores. If your USMLE was awhile back the average scores were lower than for more recent exams so you might want to include the norm table for your year if you can find it.
 
Anyone hear anything from programs? I submitted in early January, emailed my ITE scores but no program responded to even say they got them :(
 
dipriMAN said:
Anyone hear anything from programs? I submitted in early January, emailed my ITE scores but no program responded to even say they got them :(
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Most programs don't send confirmation emails. 1st invites went out in late January last year, with the majority of invites coming March - June.
 
i got an email from Penn that my file was incomplete because of no ITE scores. But, I am fully board certified for many years and don't have any record of my ITE scores from residency. my program shut down and all i have of my residency is just my old PD who now works somewhere else. I emailed this to them. You think this will be sufficient??
 
pain2b said:
i got an email from Penn that my file was incomplete because of no ITE scores. But, I am fully board certified for many years and don't have any record of my ITE scores from residency. my program shut down and all i have of my residency is just my old PD who now works somewhere else. I emailed this to them. You think this will be sufficient??
Click to expand...

If you emailed them the accurate picture of your situation than I think you've done all you can. If there's no way to get your scores, then what else can you do? Hopefully they'll be fine with it and recognize it's not that important for you since you are boarded already. Just my opinion as a fellow applicant.
 
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