2012 Election Paul Ryan vs Obama Healthcare Policy

[Dartmouth2005]

http://www.npr.org/2012/08/12/158640909/ryan-adds-stark-choice-on-health-care-to-gop-ticket



Curious to get a medical students perspective on the upcoming presidential election.

Romney recently named Paul Ryan as his running mate. The stark contrast of Ryan's health care policy to the Obama administration's will be an interesting developing story in the election and should bring issues concerning healthcare, medicare, to the forefront of the race.

Any thoughts?

I only support Paul Ryan on his votes against misguided federal indian legislation such as the TLOA which allows Indian tribes to incarcerate members in federal prisons without the protections of the US Constitution in their underlying convictions.

Other than that, it is Obama/Biden 2012 for me.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Gut Shot]

Am I the only one who sees something very wrong with this? Needed procedures shouldn't be avoided because other procedures are more profitable, but in this case, needed procedures are costing the providers money so less appropriate or ineffective alternatives are used. System doesn't work.

It's not that it doesn't work, the race for the pot of gold is an inherent feature of a third-party payment system in a rapidly changing world.

We already aren't accepting new medicare patients.

Awesome. When your last one dies off I expect you to quit bitching.

 

[Gut Shot]

Yeah! Plus his forged long form birth certificate. Can't forget about that.

The problem is they're using aluminum foil hats instead of real tin ones. It's tough to find a good sheet of tin foil these days, but when they slide the real deal over their melons they know where that extra time and money went.

 

[deleted103644]

Am I the only one who sees something very wrong with this? Needed procedures shouldn't be avoided because other procedures are more profitable, but in this case, needed procedures are costing the providers money so less appropriate or ineffective alternatives are used. System doesn't work.

As Gut Shot pointed out, this is equally true with private insurance.

Maybe the overall reimbursements are higher, but do you think physicians aren't trying to maximize reimbursements - costs with private insurers as well?

 

[xf3rn4nd3sx]

It's not that it doesn't work, the race for the pot of gold is an inherent feature of a third-party payment system in a rapidly changing world.

No, it's exactly that it doesn't work. It's not a race for the pot of gold. Everyone looks out for their own self interests. Make providing quality care the most attractive decision and you will fix the problem. It's not complicated.

Awesome. When your last one dies off I expect you to quit bitching.

The issue will hopefully be resolved. It's really a matter of drawing the line somewhere. Whether or not you want to accept it, medicine is a business. It's not that I don't like taking care of medicare patients, but taking a net loss on a case isn't a very good business model. Altruistically, you are helping patients either way.

 

[xf3rn4nd3sx]

As Gut Shot pointed out, this is equally true with private insurance.

Maybe the overall reimbursements are higher, but do you think physicians aren't trying to maximize reimbursements - costs with private insurers as well?

Lol it's most certainly not equally true. Medicare typically pays pennies of what they claim to reimburse. I don't know Gut Shot's situation, but for us it's undeniably a much worse experience than dealing with private insurers. It's an unnecessary waste of time and effort to chase them.

 

[deleted103644]

Lol it's most certainly not equally true. Medicare typically pays pennies of what they claim to reimburse. I don't know Gut Shot's situation, but for us it's undeniably a much worse experience than dealing with private insurers. It's an unnecessary waste of time and effort to chase them.

I wasn't saying you like Medicare equally.

I was saying that hospitals will always try to maximize their revenue by focusing on services where the value of reimbursements minus costs is greatest.

This is true no matter what insurance is reimbursing the services.

 

[Gut Shot]

No, it's exactly that it doesn't work. It's not a race for the pot of gold. Everyone looks out for their own self interests.

...by racing for the pot of gold. There was a huge fiasco here a few years back when imaging reimbursement was sky high. Every Tom Dick and Harry practice in five counties was buying imaging equipment and finding creative ways to bill with it. Problem is this is a certificate-of-use state, so hell almost broke loose. Cardiac catheterizations paying well these days? Screw medical management, let's open a freakin' cath lab! And so on.

Make providing quality care the most attractive decision and you will fix the problem. It's not complicated.

Define quality.

The issue will hopefully be resolved. It's really a matter of drawing the line somewhere. Whether or not you want to accept it, medicine is a business. It's not that I don't like taking care of medicare patients, but taking a net loss on a case isn't a very good business model. Altruistically, you are helping patients either way.

I understand medicine is a business, I own my own practice. But I have to take the not-so-good with the good, and without Medicare I would 1.) be bankrupt, 2.) have no medical care for myself after retirement, and 3.) be looking after decrepit and bankrupt parents. I will accept the imperfect solution over no solution.

 

[Gut Shot]

I don't know Gut Shot's situation, but for us it's undeniably a much worse experience than dealing with private insurers. It's an unnecessary waste of time and effort to chase them.

Mine has been tolerable. The contractor here can be slow but eventually the money gets transferred without much hubub. My private insurers pay better, but they're also the ones who complain and question decisions. I guess that's to be expected, as Medicare isn't really insurance, it's just a money transfer device.

 

[xf3rn4nd3sx]

...by racing for the pot of gold. There was a huge fiasco here a few years back when imaging reimbursement was sky high. Every Tom Dick and Harry practice in five counties was buying imaging equipment and finding creative ways to bill with it. Problem is this is a certificate-of-use state, so hell almost broke loose. Cardiac catheterizations paying well these days? Screw medical management, let's open a freakin' cath lab! And so on.

Define quality.

I understand medicine is a business, I own my own practice. But I have to take the not-so-good with the good, and without Medicare I would 1.) be bankrupt, 2.) have no medical care for myself after retirement, and 3.) be looking after decrepit and bankrupt parents. I will accept the imperfect solution over no solution.

I guess it depends on which specialty you're in. For us, the supply of neurosurgeons has been manipulated to the point that the volume of cases and demand is outrageous. We're booked for like 5-6 months. In our case it makes more sense because we have the volume to not take on new patients. To make matters worse, the shortages are being addressed by opening up medical schools all over the place and allowing new residencies to open up. The community hospital where my parents live has just started a cardiology residency programs. These residents usually come from bad DO schools or Caribbean schools. A cardiologist told me that he has "black listed" several residents because they are actually incompetent to the point that they endanger any patient's safety. This is happening all over. Quality of physicians is going down and there appears to be an overall brain drain. Students at top schools are going into other fields, like finance etc. The motive is obvious and although it may not be pure and difficult to accept, there are plenty of money-grubbing people that make great doctors. Although I would like for the people to genuinely enjoy the field and have good intentions, I would much rather prefer greedy people who are competent and can work hard than the genuine residents from the community hospitals I mentioned.

Mine has been tolerable. The contractor here can be slow but eventually the money gets transferred without much hubub. My private insurers pay better, but they're also the ones who complain and question decisions. I guess that's to be expected, as Medicare isn't really insurance, it's just a money transfer device.

Mine has gotten progressively worse. Between the loads of paperwork, months (5+) waiting for payments, and not receiving full payment when I'm actually paid has been very irritating. It's not so much the dollar amount, but rather the hassle.

 

[circulus vitios]

MW: "
: any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods"

"...The answer may not be so obvious, considering the parallels between the Socialist and Democratic Parties. Both parties profess to be champions of the working class and supporters of strong unions, both in the private sector and, contrary to the warnings of FDR, in the public sector.. . .They believe the wealthy should be taxed at significantly higher rates than the poor, and they rely on the government to create new jobs by rebuilding our infrastructure.

Fueling the debate is Obama's background, which is shrouded in secrecy. The facts, however, that are known suggest that he's something more than a far left liberal.

First are the widely-reported influences surrounding him in his early years, most notably, avowed Communist Frank Marshall Davis and anti-American, Marxist preacher Jeremiah Wright. Obama, himself, wrote in his memoirs that, as a college student, he was drawn to Marxist professors. It is inconceivable that the socialist dogma surrounding him throughout his youth had no influence on his ideology. Is it any wonder that the now defunct Socialist New Party endorsed Obama for the Illinois State Senate seat in 1996? In fact, in 2008, evidence surfaced establishing his membership in that organization.

Then there are his bizarre White House appointments, former and current czars like admitted Communist Van Jones, Chairman Mao fan, Anita Dunn, and many others.

The platform of the Socialist Party USA offers more insight.

The Socialist Party supports a steeply graduated income tax on the wealthy and limits on personal income. While the Democrats have traditionally touted themselves as champions of the poor, launching the War on Poverty in 1964, under Obama it has become a war on wealth. He is the first American President to openly call for wealth redistribution, withholding those hard-earned fruits of labor from the successful, and spreading it out among the less fortunate, and less ambitious.

The Socialist Party also calls for vast increases and expansion of welfare assistance. In 1996, Democrat Bill Clinton, working with Republicans who understood the dangers of government dependency, reduced the welfare rolls by signing the Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Reconciliation Act. Under Obama, welfare spending has skyrocketed.
...Finally, though he may not yet have taken over the nation's means of production, his administration has taken over the health care industry, and injected the federal government into the auto, banking, and energy industries. In the eyes of Greg Pason and the Socialist Party, Obama may not be ideal; but he'll do.

Socialists and Communists know exactly where Obama is coming from, and back him all the way. He has been endorsed by France's new Socialist President, and the Communist Party USA. Many other supporters see him as the well-intentioned Democrat he pretends to be, and might even question the importance of the whole issue: "Isn't it his performance as President that really matters?" But the issue is important to mainstream voters, who want to know where he intends to take the country. Also, as a lesson to future generations, it's important that history attributes Obama's failures not to inexperience and incompetence, but to his socialist ideologies.

The evidence strongly suggests that Barack Obama's vision bears little resemblance to that of J.P. Morgan, or even Franklin Roosevelt. But it does mirror that of Karl Marx. The choice in November is not between conservatism and liberalism, but between capitalism and socialism." Peter Lemiska (Peter Lemiska is a freelance writer and former Senior Special Agent of the U.S. Secret Service. He has a BA degree in psychology.

Having spent more than 28 years in government, including eight years in the Air Force, he is deeply concerned about various issues affecting our society, particularly ethics in government.)


Rather consider the points made, just go ahead and undermine the person. That seems to work very well in politics--especially by use of avoidance.

A liberal muslim homosexual ACLU lawyer professor and abortion doctor was teaching a class on Karl Marx, known atheist

”Before the class begins, you must get on your knees and worship Marx and accept that he was the most highly-evolved being the world has ever known, even greater than Jesus Christ!”

At this moment, a brave, patriotic, pro-life Navy SEAL champion who had served 1500 tours of duty and understood the necessity of war and fully supported all military decision made by the United States stood up and held up a rock.

”How old is this rock, pinhead?”

The arrogant professor smirked quite Jewishly and smugly replied “4.6 billion years, you stupid Christian”

”Wrong. It’s been 5,000 years since God created it. If it was 4.6 billion years old and evolution, as you say, is real… then it should be an animal now”

The professor was visibly shaken, and dropped his chalk and copy of Origin of the Species. He stormed out of the room crying those liberal crocodile tears. The same tears liberals cry for the “poor” (who today live in such luxury that most own refrigerators) when they jealously try to claw justly earned wealth from the deserving job creators. There is no doubt that at this point our professor, DeShawn Washington, wished he had pulled himself up by his bootstraps and become more than a sophist liberal professor. He wished so much that he had a gun to shoot himself from embarrassment, but he himself had petitioned against them!

The students applauded and all registered Republican that day and accepted Jesus as their lord and savior. An eagle named “Small Government” flew into the room and perched atop the American Flag and shed a tear on the chalk. The pledge of allegiance was read several times, and God himself showed up and enacted a flat tax rate across the country.

The professor lost his tenure and was fired the next day. He died of the gay plague AIDS and was tossed into the lake of fire for all eternity.

 

[circulus vitios]

Also,

[YOUTUBE]kpkzptvDpDY[/YOUTUBE]

 

[Neurodoc32]

For the open-minded folks in here...

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB100...7587464183295348.html?mod=WSJ_Opinion_LEADTop

 

[deleted103644]

To be fair, there have always been crappy community cardiology programs. They usually fill with FMGs, and this isn't a new phenomenon.

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

A liberal muslim homosexual ACLU lawyer professor and abortion doctor was teaching a class on Karl Marx, known atheist

”Before the class begins, you must get on your knees and worship Marx and accept that he was the most highly-evolved being the world has ever known, even greater than Jesus Christ!”

At this moment, a brave, patriotic, pro-life Navy SEAL champion who had served 1500 tours of duty and understood the necessity of war and fully supported all military decision made by the United States stood up and held up a rock.

”How old is this rock, pinhead?”

The arrogant professor smirked quite Jewishly and smugly replied “4.6 billion years, you stupid Christian”

”Wrong. It’s been 5,000 years since God created it. If it was 4.6 billion years old and evolution, as you say, is real… then it should be an animal now”

The professor was visibly shaken, and dropped his chalk and copy of Origin of the Species. He stormed out of the room crying those liberal crocodile tears. The same tears liberals cry for the “poor” (who today live in such luxury that most own refrigerators) when they jealously try to claw justly earned wealth from the deserving job creators. There is no doubt that at this point our professor, DeShawn Washington, wished he had pulled himself up by his bootstraps and become more than a sophist liberal professor. He wished so much that he had a gun to shoot himself from embarrassment, but he himself had petitioned against them!

The students applauded and all registered Republican that day and accepted Jesus as their lord and savior. An eagle named “Small Government” flew into the room and perched atop the American Flag and shed a tear on the chalk. The pledge of allegiance was read several times, and God himself showed up and enacted a flat tax rate across the country.

The professor lost his tenure and was fired the next day. He died of the gay plague AIDS and was tossed into the lake of fire for all eternity.

Definitely just lol'd.

I wish I had found this when people were posting all those stupid "socialist experiment class" crap posts on facebook.

 

[Gut Shot]

For the open-minded folks in here...

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB100...7587464183295348.html?mod=WSJ_Opinion_LEADTop

My favorite bit:

For the record, President Obama's $716 billion is a "cut" only in the sense of slowing the rate of spending growth over 10 years, which is the baseline Democrats always use. Medicare spending will continue to rise rapidly. The Obama "cuts" come by cranking down Medicare's price controls for hospitals and by gutting Medicare Advantage.

Precisely. The "cuts" mean projected 10 year spending growth from ~$525 billion to $850 billion rather than $950 billion.

 

[pseudosquam]

Not really. That post was spot on and highlighted the differences between the two sides of the isle. On one side you have the new left who believers that the US is a terrible country and their morals say to bring it crashing down. On the other side you have true Americans who understand what freedom is.

It went right over your head lol.

Definitely just lol'd.

I wish I had found this when people were posting all those stupid "socialist experiment class" crap posts on facebook.

 

[Gut Shot]

Not really. That post was spot on and highlighted the differences between the two sides of the isle. On one side you have the new left who believers that the US is a terrible country and their morals say to bring it crashing down. On the other side you have true Americans who understand what freedom is.

It went right over your head lol.

If you listen to a lot of conservatives, they'll tell you that the difference between them and us is that conservatives love America and that liberals hate America. That we 'blame America first'. That we're suspicious of patriotism and always think our country's in the wrong. As conservative radio and TV personality Sean Hannity says, we liberals 'train our children to criticize America, not celebrate it.'

They don't get it. We love America just as much as they do. But in a different way. You see, they love America the way a four-year old loves her mommy. Liberals love America like grown-ups. To a four-year-old, everything Mommy does is wonderful and anyone who criticizes Mommy is bad. Grown-up love means actually understanding what you love, taking the good with the bad, and helping your loved one grow. Love takes attention and work and is the best thing in the world.

That's why we liberals want America to do the right thing. We know America is the hope of the world, and we love it and want it to do well. We also want it to do good...

...It's called honesty. What do you think is more important to a loving relationship: honesty or lies?"

-Al Franken

 

[FSU2013]

Gut shot - your contempt for conservatives and holier than thou attitude is absolutely disgusting. The way you speak down to those who disagree with you is ironic, since I suspect you consider yourself as open-minded and tolerant (just a guess). You clearly think very highly of yourself and believe yourself to be the moral superior. I hope the disrespect you show those on this forum does not carry over to how you treat your patients.

 

[pseudosquam]

Gun Shot. How much time have you spent outside the US? Ever been on a deployment to see what really goes on? Do you even understand the definition of the "new left" as it relates to the view of the US and the US' role in history?

If you listen to a lot of conservatives, they'll tell you that the difference between them and us is that conservatives love America and that liberals hate America. That we 'blame America first'. That we're suspicious of patriotism and always think our country's in the wrong. As conservative radio and TV personality Sean Hannity says, we liberals 'train our children to criticize America, not celebrate it.'

They don't get it. We love America just as much as they do. But in a different way. You see, they love America the way a four-year old loves her mommy. Liberals love America like grown-ups. To a four-year-old, everything Mommy does is wonderful and anyone who criticizes Mommy is bad. Grown-up love means actually understanding what you love, taking the good with the bad, and helping your loved one grow. Love takes attention and work and is the best thing in the world.

That's why we liberals want America to do the right thing. We know America is the hope of the world, and we love it and want it to do well. We also want it to do good...

...It's called honesty. What do you think is more important to a loving relationship: honesty or lies?"

-Al Franken

FSU: Nailed it. Extreme liberals tend to be the most closed minded people I've ever meet. Militant even.

 

[Gut Shot]

Gut shot - your contempt for conservatives and holier than thou attitude is absolutely disgusting. The way you speak down to those who disagree with you is ironic, since I suspect you consider yourself as open-minded and tolerant (just a guess). You clearly think very highly of yourself and believe yourself to be the moral superior.

So... imagine you are conversing online with a stranger who you think has a very simplistic and binary view of the world. That person then gets angry with you because you utilize some very basic logic and call out a glaring inconsistency. Should you give a rat's ass?

 

[FSU2013]

So... imagine you are conversing online with a stranger who you think has a very simplistic and binary view of the world. That person then gets angry with you because you utilize some very basic logic and call out a glaring inconsistency. Should you give a rat's ass?

If you clearly think you're God's gift to earth and don't respect others point of view, then no. It's fine to have strong political, ethical, moral and religious convictions - but it's generally pretty foolish to belittle and speak down to those that you disagree with and those that you don't understand. You don't understand why conservatives want small government and you don't want to. When you speak to people in the manner that you have, you clearly have no desire to have healthy, respectful discourse - you want to thump your chest and continue thinking what you think.

I have had some of my political views change to the left and others to the right after long, healthy political discussions. There have been times when I've been wrong and admitted it. The only way this can happen is if you don't consider the other person to have a "simplistic and binary view of the world" but, instead, try to put yourself in their shoes. It is by assuming that others are simple that narrows your view of the world and ensures that you will remain entrenched in your current views, regardless if they are liberal or conservative.

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

Not really. That post was spot on and highlighted the differences between the two sides of the isle. On one side you have the new left who believers that the US is a terrible country and their morals say to bring it crashing down. On the other side you have true Americans who understand what freedom is.

It went right over your head lol.

Haha yeah...yeah that's exactly what that story was saying. I see it now. It definitely wasn't mocking the stupid fake "professor teaches everyone a lesson on socialism" story that shows up every few years. No, it's purpose is to "highlight the difference between the two sides of the aisle". I think you've really enlightened us all today.

 

[Dave89]

Haha yeah...yeah that's exactly what that story was saying. I see it now. It definitely wasn't mocking the stupid fake "professor teaches everyone a lesson on socialism" story that shows up every few years. No, it's purpose is to "highlight the difference between the two sides of the aisle". I think you've really enlightened us all today.

Circulos Vitios is renowned for constructing (occasionally) elaborate straw men, just as you are consistent in supporting such straw men. It's good that this particular one was called out.

 

[xf3rn4nd3sx]

If you listen to a lot of conservatives, they'll tell you that the difference between them and us is that conservatives love America and that liberals hate America. That we 'blame America first'. That we're suspicious of patriotism and always think our country's in the wrong. As conservative radio and TV personality Sean Hannity says, we liberals 'train our children to criticize America, not celebrate it.'

They don't get it. We love America just as much as they do. But in a different way. You see, they love America the way a four-year old loves her mommy. Liberals love America like grown-ups. To a four-year-old, everything Mommy does is wonderful and anyone who criticizes Mommy is bad. Grown-up love means actually understanding what you love, taking the good with the bad, and helping your loved one grow. Love takes attention and work and is the best thing in the world.

That's why we liberals want America to do the right thing. We know America is the hope of the world, and we love it and want it to do well. We also want it to do good...

...It's called honesty. What do you think is more important to a loving relationship: honesty or lies?"

-Al Franken

Biggest load of BS that I've read in a while Thanks for the good laugh

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

Circulos Vitios is renowned for constructing (occasionally) elaborate straw men, just as you are consistent in supporting such straw men. It's good that this particular one was called out.

Everyone on SDN must be really impressed that they know what a straw man is because I see it about every day.

It's a ridiculous story mocking a less ridiculous but still stupid story. I'm not sure what kind of "argument" you think is being made here. Oh and I almost forgot...in this case it was in response to an even more ridiculous post.

I don't even know what you mean by me being "consistent in supporting such straw men".

 

[Gut Shot]

If you clearly think you're God's gift to earth and don't respect others point of view, then no. It's fine to have strong political, ethical, moral and religious convictions - but it's generally pretty foolish to belittle and speak down to those that you disagree with and those that you don't understand. You don't understand why conservatives want small government and you don't want to. When you speak to people in the manner that you have, you clearly have no desire to have healthy, respectful discourse - you want to thump your chest and continue thinking what you think.

I have had some of my political views change to the left and others to the right after long, healthy political discussions. There have been times when I've been wrong and admitted it. The only way this can happen is if you don't consider the other person to have a "simplistic and binary view of the world" but, instead, try to put yourself in their shoes. It is by assuming that others are simple that narrows your view of the world and ensures that you will remain entrenched in your current views, regardless if they are liberal or conservative.

Let's review my interactions with you on this thread.

1. I pointed out your apparent inconsistency regarding "socialized medicine".

2. I pointed out your decrying government services while utilizing them is hypocritical.

3. I linked some resources to help explain my assertion that expanding and subsidizing the private insurance market (aka Obamacare) is, in fact, a conservative approach to health care reform.

You then proceeded to disappear from the thread to eat Chik-Fil-A, and in the process imply that your choice of meal would lead me to accuse you of "being a homophobe or lynching homosexuals." And you think I belittle and speak down to you?

Your world must be incredibly fragile if these miniscule irritations are provoking such a reaction.

 

[Gut Shot]

Gun Shot. How much time have you spent outside the US? Ever been on a deployment to see what really goes on?

Appeal to authority, check.

Do you even understand the definition of the "new left" as it relates to the view of the US and the US' role in history?

That bunch of dirty, anti-establishment hippies that ran around in the 60's and 70's? I believe they are still being hosed off the soles of Reagan's shoes. Who cares?

FSU: Nailed it. Extreme liberals tend to be the most closed minded people I've ever meet. Militant even.

Ad hominem, check. Strong work.

 

[deleted103644]

Biggest load of BS that I've read in a while Thanks for the good laugh

Haha, I think it's kind of great, although I don't think conservatives are uncritical of the country.

Liberals are a bit more willing to tell America, "Yes, your butt does look too big in those jeans."

Conservatives are sitting on the couch getting nostalgic about old wedding videos and blaming everything on the kids.

 

[notbobtrustme]

One thing you guys have to remember is that Obama's record is more conservative than Reagan's. That's an idea of how far right both parties have lurched in the last 10 years.

If you stacked up Reagan's record today, he'd look like a liberal Democrat. He raised taxes, increased the deficit massively, worked to eliminate nuclear weapons, supported amnesty for illegal immigrants, increased SS/Medicare benefits, made access to abortions easier for women (despite being pro-life personally) and worked to regulate Wall St.

 

[Gut Shot]

One thing you guys have to remember is that Obama's record is more conservative than Reagan's. That's an idea of how far right both parties have lurched in the last 10 years.

If you stacked up Reagan's record today, he'd look like a liberal Democrat. He raised taxes, increased the deficit massively, worked to eliminate nuclear weapons, supported amnesty for illegal immigrants, increased SS/Medicare benefits, made access to abortions easier for women (despite being pro-life personally) and worked to regulate Wall St.

Reagan a liberal Democrat? Depends on how you frame things. He did raise taxes, but only after first cutting them and watching revenue tank. He did increase the deficit massively, but most of it was through military spending. But yes, he was much more pragmatic and open to compromise than his current deification among conservatives would suggest.

 

[notbobtrustme]

Reagan a liberal Democrat? Depends on how you frame things. He did raise taxes, but only after first cutting them and watching revenue tank. He did increase the deficit massively, but most of it was through military spending. But yes, he was much more pragmatic and open to compromise than his current deification among conservatives would suggest.

True, but even his tax rates are miles above what Obama is proposing today.

 

[Gut Shot]

True, but even his tax rates are miles above what Obama is proposing today.

Shhhh! Don't let Grover Norquist hear you!

 

[deleted103644]

Shhhh! Don't let Grover Norquist hear you!

Grover Norquist doesn't actually care about the level of taxation, only the change in that level.

 

[pseudosquam]

Hmmm. No. I think you need to review your logical fallacies - even more humorous that you're the one quoting political figures lol. The new left's POV has permeated modern day liberalism. Like most movements it doesn't just go away before the living generation has even had a chance to die. Further, in history it remains as a perspective that shapes how history is studied and interpreted.

Sorry. Your work was especially weak.

Appeal to authority, check.



That bunch of dirty, anti-establishment hippies that ran around in the 60's and 70's? I believe they are still being hosed off the soles of Reagan's shoes. Who cares?



Ad hominem, check. Strong work.

 

[deleted103644]

Hmmm. No. I think you need to review your logical fallacies - even more humorous that you're the one quoting political figures lol. The new left's POV has permeated modern day liberalism. Like most movements it doesn't just go away before the living generation has even had a chance to die. Further, in history it remains as a perspective that shapes how history is studied and interpreted.

Sorry. Your work was especially weak.

 

[pseudosquam]

A NY liberal supporting another liberals liberal arguments. I didn't see that coming.

 

[deleted103644]

A NY liberal supporting another liberals liberal arguments. I didn't see that coming.

It has little to do with the argument. Your last post was one of the most content-free pieces of idiocy I've seen on these forums.

Did you have anything resembling a point in there?

It read like a stoned idiot's impersonation of what a smart person might say.

 

[pseudosquam]

I LOL'd at this. Not in a condescending way but because it was illegitimately funny.

It has little to do with the argument. Your last post was one of the most content-free pieces of idiocy I've seen on these forums.

Did you have anything resembling a point in there?

It read like a stoned idiot's impersonation of what a smart person might say.

My point was that he's incorrect in assuming that the new left is old hat. History is always viewed through some sort of lens/bias. Understanding this provides insight to the quote he posted. He then has the audacity to claim I am in fallacy after he posted a quote full of them.

 

[deleted103644]

I LOL'd at this. Not in a condescending way but because it was illegitimately funny.




My point was that he's incorrect in assuming that the new left is old hat. History is always viewed through some sort of lens/bias. Understanding this provides insight to the quote he posted. He then has the audacity to claim I am in fallacy after he posted a quote full of them.

I'm not sure if English is your second language, or you're struggling to use a more expansive vocabulary than your normal one, but your syntax and word choice are very weird.

It detracts from your arguments.

Your posts read like a mediocre eighth grade history paper.

 

[xf3rn4nd3sx]

Haha, I think it's kind of great, although I don't think conservatives are uncritical of the country.

Liberals are a bit more willing to tell America, "Yes, your butt does look too big in those jeans."

Conservatives are sitting on the couch getting nostalgic about old wedding videos and blaming everything on the kids.

If we're going to make sweeping generalizations:
Conservatives are a bit more willing to tell America, "No you're not entitled to my labor."

Liberals are sitting on the couch growing increasingly dependent on government aid.

Am I doing this right ?


Obviously neither of our examples are very accurate. We can make generalizations about either party all day, but ultimately both have some glaring idiocies

 

[deleted103644]

If we're going to make sweeping generalizations:
Conservatives are a bit more willing to tell America, "No you're not entitled to my labor."

Liberals are sitting on the couch growing increasingly dependent on government aid.

Am I doing this right ?


Obviously neither of our examples are very accurate. We can make generalizations about either party all day, but ultimately both have some glaring idiocies

You know the states that receive the most federal tax dollars per dollar of federal tax revenue are overwhelmingly conservative, right?

The thing about government aid is that no one ever wants to attribute it to the government.

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

You know the states that receive the most federal tax dollars per dollar of federal tax revenue are overwhelmingly conservative, right?

The thing about government aid is that no one ever wants to attribute it to the government.

http://www.economist.com/node/21560550

And even in Iowa, too much detail can be dangerous. Farmers queuing for lunch at the state fair's aptly-named Iowa Pork Tent declared that they wanted the government out of their lives, yet stoutly defended subsidised crop insurance. Others defended taxpayers' money spent turning corn into ethanol.

Voters are exceptionally worried about government spending. Those worries explain Mr Ryan's rocket-like rise to the national stage, as well as Mr Obama's careful nods to fiscal discipline. But if the thrifty swing state of Iowa is anything to go by, those same voters like the idea of other people footing the bill, long before they tighten their own belts. In that, perhaps, this election is not so unusual at all.

 

[xf3rn4nd3sx]

Haha, I think it's kind of great, although I don't think conservatives are uncritical of the country.

Liberals are a bit more willing to tell America, "Yes, your butt does look too big in those jeans."

Conservatives are sitting on the couch getting nostalgic about old wedding videos and blaming everything on the kids.

If we're going to make sweeping generalizations:
Conservatives are a bit more willing to tell America, "No you're not entitled to my labor."

Liberals are sitting on the couch growing increasingly dependent on government aid.

Am I doing this right ?


Obviously neither of our examples are very accurate. We can make generalizations about either party all day, but ultimately both have some glaring idiocies

You know the states that receive the most federal tax dollars per dollar of federal tax revenue are overwhelmingly conservative, right?

The thing about government aid is that no one ever wants to attribute it to the government.

Lol see bold text...

 

[meix]

Look, there is just way too many things in the law but most revolve around the government forcing insurance companies to do things. Why should a person who waited to be diagnosed with diabetes to get insurance pay the same rate as someone who was responsible and got their insurance when they were healthy?

Actually, this is why the ACA also requires all American citizens to be insured, so no one can just wait till they get sick to get insurance.

As for the big picture stuff, ACA actually saves money in the long run, but you would know that if you watched/read the KFF materials on the ACA...


Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

 

[pseudosquam]

Johnny Wannabe,

I write for grants, edit, and have been a second author. English is my first language. I suspect that my posts seem that way to you because I don't consider syntax while writing a post, auto corrections, and you're unfamiliar with the topics I'm discussing.

EDIT: Looking back at your posts it does look like you're unfamiliar with history as a study or practical discipline. That's okay - no one knows everything right? - but it looks ignorant for you to point my posts as undeveloped or "pointless" because of your lack of understanding.

I'm not sure if English is your second language, or you're struggling to use a more expansive vocabulary than your normal one, but your syntax and word choice are very weird.

It detracts from your arguments.

Your posts read like a mediocre eighth grade history paper.

 

[xf3rn4nd3sx]

Johnny Wannabe,

I write for grants, edit, and have been a second author. English is my first language. I suspect that my posts seem that way to you because I don't consider syntax while writing a post, auto corrections, and you're unfamiliar with the topics I'm discussing.

EDIT: Looking back at your posts it does look like you're unfamiliar with history as a study or practical discipline. That's okay - no one knows everything right? - but it looks ignorant for you to point my posts as undeveloped or "pointless" because of your lack of understanding.

You forgot to add that you're a financial savant

 

[deleted103644]

Lol see bold text...

Fair enough.

 

[Gut Shot]

Hmmm. No. I think you need to review your logical fallacies - even more humorous that you're the one quoting political figures lol. The new left's POV has permeated modern day liberalism. Like most movements it doesn't just go away before the living generation has even had a chance to die. Further, in history it remains as a perspective that shapes how history is studied and interpreted.

Sorry. Your work was especially weak.

Coming from you, I take that as a complement.

Oh, and do you happen to look anything like Paul Bellini IRL? I saw this recently and it reminded me of you, getting poked by the liberal stick.

Although this is probably a more appropriate visual representation. I am guessing the stick wielder is a Democrat, probably from Chicago:

 

[Gut Shot]

Extreme liberals tend to be the most closed minded people I've ever meet. Militant even.

Let's check in with the open-minded wing of the party of ideas:

“We’ve got a Muslim president who hates farming, hates the military, hates the U.S., and we hate him!”

-Hank Williams, Jr., following a rendition of "Don't Apologize for America" at the Iowa State Fair

Mr. Williams then went on to praise gay equality, the DREAM act, and the construction of an Islamic cultural center on Park Place and W. Broadway in Manhattan.