2012 Election Paul Ryan vs Obama Healthcare Policy

[0phthalmologist]

They should make the entitlements optional. If you dont want social security and medicare than u should have the option where they dont take out payroll tax. If you become 65 and didn't save money for your retirement and healthcare than that is your problem. Same thing for obama care, they should make it a tax. If you want to be part of it than let them tax you but you get to choose to opt out. Just let people decide what they want to do with their money. Of course this means you are giving people a choice, though I understand some people are very selective on which issues they are pro-choice on.

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[Dave89]

I never said I agreed with Friedman's full statement. Just that the minimum wage can reduce employment (so I wanted you to avoid going too far in your rebuttal since you'd lose credibility).

Don't confuse me with Dave89 - he's an idiot.

*Very good Johnny... Now swallow.*

 

[0phthalmologist]

That is stupid, short-sighted, and heartless.

Both should be means-tested and the caps on payroll taxes should be removed, but you need to keep the whole population enrolled to keep it affordable and sufficiently funded.

Many people who didn't expect to need Medicare or Social Security need it now because of the crash. They would be in deep **** now if you had had your way 20 years ago.



I don't think you know what Obamacare is.

If you already have health insurance, you've already opted out. And you still have a choice even if you don't - you just need to be insured somehow.

And the truth is you don't even need to do that, since the fine is unenforceable (you can just refuse to pay it).

It's really a nothing piece of legislation. The outrage about it is kind of funny.

Grow up, just because you dont agree with something doesnt make it stupid. I think its silly that you feel that you should force people to enroll into a program because you feel you know whats good for them. If you like the entitlements than raise your kids and tell them they should sign up for it. Just dont force others who may want to keep their money or use a private company to save for their retirement and healthcare. Give the people a choice instead of using coercion and force to make them use a government program that is going broke. And yes I know what obamacare is, but the extra money to fund it will come from somewhere and it will be from our taxes. So instead of just taking it directly from our taxes, set up something else that pays for it directly and people can choose to be part of it. Notice how I keep saying to give people a choice, I know you may think your smarter than most people or that the general population is dumb and cant make decisions on their own but maybe its time to let people decide where they want to send their money.

 

[Barcu]

They should make the entitlements optional. If you dont want social security and medicare than u should have the option where they dont take out payroll tax. If you become 65 and didn't save money for your retirement and healthcare than that is your problem. Same thing for obama care, they should make it a tax. If you want to be part of it than let them tax you but you get to choose to opt out. Just let people decide what they want to do with their money. Of course this means you are giving people a choice, though I understand some people are very selective on which issues they are pro-choice on.

If people opted out of taxes they didn't agree with, the government would collapse.

Yes, sometimes it seems like we are paying for other people (the horror!). However, most people don't realize how much they actually benefit from government services or they don't anticipate actually needing them at a later date. This was the crux of Obama's "you didn't build that" (which the combination of poor word choice and creative splicing by has transformed the original, valid point).

 

[0phthalmologist]

Not everyone will opt out, some people feel they need these services from the government. Let them pay for it. If people eventually see they are getting a better deal from the private sector when it comes to their retirement than they will move to that. We didnt have these entitlements till the 50s, its not like america didnt exist back than. Im not even saying we should get rid of it, just give people a choice if they want to opt out. I didnt know it was so bad to be pro-choice.

 

[0phthalmologist]

You don't need to take the funds, but everyone needs to pay for it. People are horrible at judging this kind of thing, it would be disastrous.

Before Medicare the elderly were mostly uninsured.

Stop trying to be cute with your pro-choice remark.

Who are you to decide people are horrible at judging something? I guess we will fundamentally disagree, I believe in giving people a choice in how they want to use their money to invest in their future. You believe in using force and coercion to force people in a certain program because you feel they cant make decisions for themselves and its for their own good. We just believe in two totally different philosophies. Too bad Im not allowed plan out my own future because you believe you have to enforce your beliefs on me since u think other people are not capable planning their futures.

 

[deleted103644]

Who are you to decide people are horrible at judging something? I guess we will fundamentally disagree, I believe in giving people a choice in how they want to use their money to invest in their future. You believe in using force and coercion to force people in a certain program because you feel they cant make decisions for themselves and its for their own good. We just believe in two totally different philosophies. Too bad Im not allowed plan out my own future because you believe you have to enforce your beliefs on me since u think other people are not capable planning their futures.

You are allowed to plan out your own future.

You just need to set aside a little on the off chance you royally screw things up.

If you don't need it, good for you. But many people who think they won't will.

If people made rational decisions, doctors would be unemployed.

 

[0phthalmologist]

You are allowed to plan out your own future.

You just need to set aside a little on the off chance you royally screw things up.

If you don't need it, good for you. But many people who think they won't will.

If people made rational decisions, doctors would be unemployed.

Yes and I will put some money aside in a private company of my choice for my healthcare and retirement. I just dont want you to force me into a program I may not like. People should have a choice, again this is where we fundamentally disagree.

 

[deleted103644]

Yes and I will put some money aside in a private company of my choice for my healthcare and retirement. I just dont want you to force me into a program I may not like. People should have a choice, again this is where we fundamentally disagree.

And when your private company goes bankrupt because it tied its fund up in risky derivatives, who pays to remove your rotting corpse from the street corner where you starved?

 

[0phthalmologist]

And when your private company goes bankrupt because it tied its fund up in risky derivatives, who pays to remove your rotting corpse from the street corner where you starved?

That will be my problem. Luckily I will do my research in which company I pick, and its not like the federal government is immune to bankruptcy as medicare constantly gets cut. I also have friends and family that will be able to help me through stressful times in case I need help. But again, you believe in force and coercion by forcing me into a program because you think its for my own good, while I believe in taking personal responsibility. There is simply no way we can agree on this no matter how extreme you try to make the situation.

 

[deleted103644]

That will be my problem. Luckily I will do my research in which company I pick, and its not like the federal government is immune to bankruptcy as medicare constantly gets cut. I also have friends and family that will be able to help me through stressful times in case I need help. But again, you believe in force and coercion by forcing me into a program because you think its for my own good, while I believe in taking personal responsibility. There is simply no way we can agree on this no matter how extreme you try to make the situation.

That's just it - it won't be your problem. It will be all of society's problem that you were irresponsible. Or would you really just offer to curl up and die? (How considerate of you!)

Living on social security alone is no picnic. No one should want that. But it's forced savings for retirement in a very secure system. Making everyone do at least this much is a good thing.

Medicare is a bit too generous. There needs to be means testing and some limits on unnecessary devices and care. It also should be something no one wants to have to depend on, but will be there just in case.

I am 99.999% sure I will never need to rely on social security - I have plenty of money, make conservative investments, and will have a great salary. But I'm glad it's there just in case. And more importantly, I'm glad it's there for you.

 

[circulus vitios]

They should make the entitlements optional. If you dont want social security and medicare than u should have the option where they dont take out payroll tax. If you become 65 and didn't save money for your retirement and healthcare than that is your problem. Same thing for obama care, they should make it a tax. If you want to be part of it than let them tax you but you get to choose to opt out. Just let people decide what they want to do with their money. Of course this means you are giving people a choice, though I understand some people are very selective on which issues they are pro-choice on.

That's the second dumbest idea I've ever heard of.

"I don't need social security and medicare." - the poor of America
...50 years later...
"I need social security and medicare because I didn't save any money!" - the poor of America

 

[circulus vitios]

Not everyone will opt out, some people feel they need these services from the government. Let them pay for it. If people eventually see they are getting a better deal from the private sector when it comes to their retirement than they will move to that. We didnt have these entitlements till the 50s, its not like america didnt exist back than. Im not even saying we should get rid of it, just give people a choice if they want to opt out. I didnt know it was so bad to be pro-choice.

You're right. Retirement is a modern phenomena. "Back in the day," the elderly worked until they died or worked until they could no longer work, in which case they either moved in with their children or simply starved to death. If you're talking specifically about the 50s, pensions and employee retirement plans were more common in that era. Today, relying on such a plan would be idiotic. Ask a retirement-age employee of a bankrupt company how it worked out (Enron, etc.)

 

[yappy]

"The government will never be there for you...no country on earth today will provide for their citizens." ~ Kevin O'Leary.


[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UG9FWRbD9ac[/YOUTUBE]

You're right. Retirement is a modern phenomena. "Back in the day," the elderly worked until they died or worked until they could no longer work, in which case they either moved in with their children or simply starved to death. If you're talking specifically about the 50s, pensions and employee retirement plans were more common in that era. Today, relying on such a plan would be idiotic. Ask a retirement-age employee of a bankrupt company how it worked out (Enron, etc.)

 

[pkwraith]

That will be my problem. Luckily I will do my research in which company I pick, and its not like the federal government is immune to bankruptcy as medicare constantly gets cut. I also have friends and family that will be able to help me through stressful times in case I need help. But again, you believe in force and coercion by forcing me into a program because you think its for my own good, while I believe in taking personal responsibility. There is simply no way we can agree on this no matter how extreme you try to make the situation.

This endlessly frustrates me. The people who invented the individual mandate because of personal responsibility. Now, they decry it as abandoning personal responsibility. At this point the idea and phrase of "personal responsibility" is such a caricature.


"We also believe strongly that personal responsibility is vital to creating a 21st Century Intelligent Health System. Individuals who can afford to purchase health insurance and simply choose not to, place an unnecessary burden on a system that is on the verge of collapse; these free-riders undermine the entire health system by placing the onus of responsibility on taxpayers." -Newt Gingrich

"With regards to the individual mandate, the individual responsibility program that I proposed, I was very pleased that the compromise between the two houses includes the personal responsibility mandate" - Mitt Romney

I can't wait for people to change their mind about what "personal responsibility" means again.

 

[DOC PENGUIN]

Wheres MOHS when you need him.

 

[DOC PENGUIN]

Have you seen the private hospitals in Brooklyn? I would much rather receive treatment at King's County than most of them. You're making the wrong comparison.

As far as the public hospitals go, I think they're great with exceptions. The nurses' union needs to go, but aside from that they are a great training environment for doctors and provide decent care to those who need it in the city. You probably wouldn't be able to ride the subway without getting TB if it weren't for the HHC.



Is that the water store? That idea will fail in NYC - its more of a CA thing. Also, the main "impurity" he's trying to remove is fluoride - that's everywhere (intentionally).



There are very good reasons to regulate taxis, but that's a whole other argument. Anyone being able to run a taxi at their own fare structure without any licensing, etc would be utter chaos and totally unacceptable in modern NYC.




Not sure what exactly you're getting at here. Healthcare costs more here because everything is more expensive here (drugs, devices, etc - companies blatantly charge us more), we perform more expensive diagnostic and therapeutic procedures (for whatever reason - culture, profit, malpractice, your choice), and other assorted things like excessive private health insurance profits, etc etc (but e first two are the big ones).

Okay that is a good point. Choice is a great thing in America. You, a radiologist, can work for whoever you want after residency. Wait....... Why do nurse unions have to go, don't they have the right to unionize? I think the teachers unions also need to go.

Good for the HHC, they provide families lots of needed care. But, that care should be essential not stuff like B-17 for cancer or Yoga. Sadly, you can still get Tuberculosis, we can't eradicate diseases. Even Smallpox and polio are coming back. Bedbugs are coming back thanks to the outlaw of DDT. DDT could have kept malaria at bay.

Taxis: limos already do that ****, take a trip down Fifth Avenue. Yes, that is another argument.

You and I know that fluoride is the best thing since sliced bread, the rich hipster families that live in lower manhattan and brooklyn don't.

Reason 1: because heavy european regulation makes the little guys come here.
Reason 2: For once we agree, therefore if we Had HSA's, Catastrophic insurance the small family doc stuff could be paid for out of pocket and catastrophic insurance would pay for the BIG surgeries. Now there are complications, but what if we deregulate some of the market. It worked for air travel. Better yet, state mandates on what goes into insurance is pretty sucky, why can't we let people customize their own insurance? Contrary to popular belief, you an di agree more than we both think.
Sweeping aside the Friedman thing. I assume you are talking about the late great but monetarist dip**** Milton Friedman. i prefer Mises, Hayek and Adam Smith.

 

[0phthalmologist]

This endlessly frustrates me. The people who invented the individual mandate because of personal responsibility. Now, they decry it as abandoning personal responsibility. At this point the idea and phrase of "personal responsibility" is such a caricature.


"We also believe strongly that personal responsibility is vital to creating a 21st Century Intelligent Health System. Individuals who can afford to purchase health insurance and simply choose not to, place an unnecessary burden on a system that is on the verge of collapse; these free-riders undermine the entire health system by placing the onus of responsibility on taxpayers.” -Newt Gingrich

“With regards to the individual mandate, the individual responsibility program that I proposed, I was very pleased that the compromise between the two houses includes the personal responsibility mandate" - Mitt Romney

I can't wait for people to change their mind about what "personal responsibility" means again.

I dont understand why you decided to quote two politicians I despise. Either way, when it comes down to it, you simple believe in using force to make people participate in your program while I allow people to be free. You are no different than those who want to force the drug laws or make people join their religion, both those groups think they have ur best interest in heart but its none of your buisness what I do in my personal life.

 

[0phthalmologist]

That's just it - it won't be your problem. It will be all of society's problem that you were irresponsible. Or would you really just offer to curl up and die? (How considerate of you!)

Living on social security alone is no picnic. No one should want that. But it's forced savings for retirement in a very secure system. Making everyone do at least this much is a good thing.

Medicare is a bit too generous. There needs to be means testing and some limits on unnecessary devices and care. It also should be something no one wants to have to depend on, but will be there just in case.

I am 99.999% sure I will never need to rely on social security - I have plenty of money, make conservative investments, and will have a great salary. But I'm glad it's there just in case. And more importantly, I'm glad it's there for you.

The last statement you made explains it all. You just think your smarter than most people and know you wont need social security. So instead of letting someone else like me who feels the same you to opt out, you believe that I should be forced into a government program because of that .001%. Talk about pro-choice. The government has also been ripping off social security receipents because the pay out doesnt account for true inflation. They say inflation is only 2%, but they account for food and energy when they calculate core CPI. Anyone who goes out and buys groceries know that inflation is not 2% a year. So instead of letting people keep that money they take it from them and give me less in the future.

 

[deleted103644]

The last statement you made explains it all. You just think your smarter than most people and know you wont need social security. So instead of letting someone else like me who feels the same you to opt out, you believe that I should be forced into a government program because of that .001%. Talk about pro-choice. The government has also been ripping off social security receipents because the pay out doesnt account for true inflation. They say inflation is only 2%, but they account for food and energy when they calculate core CPI. Anyone who goes out and buys groceries know that inflation is not 2% a year. So instead of letting people keep that money they take it from them and give me less in the future.

Stop talking crazy.

Try the BPP at MIT if you don't trust the CPI. It's independent and almost a continuous measure of inflation. So far, there have been only minor deviations from the CPI, nothing like what you inflation nuts believe.

And even though I'm almost certain I won't need social security, I still don't mind paying it (even if it ends up being means tested and I get no payout in the end).

The fact that people like you complain about the small fraction of forced savings tells me that you want to invest in something riskier or buy something stupid.

I don't want your decrepit broke ass begging or dying on my doorstep when your investments go sour and you have nothing left in old age.

 

[0phthalmologist]

Stop talking crazy.

Try the BPP at MIT if you don't trust the CPI. It's independent and almost a continuous measure of inflation. So far, there have been only minor deviations from the CPI, nothing like what you inflation nuts believe.

And even though I'm almost certain I won't need social security, I still don't mind paying it (even if it ends up being means tested and I get no payout in the end).

The fact that people like you complain about the small fraction of forced savings tells me that you want to invest in something riskier or buy something stupid.

I don't want your decrepit broke ass begging or dying on my doorstep when your investments go sour and you have nothing left in old age.

http://www.shadowstats.com/article/consumer_price_index

CPI has not always been calculated the same. They claim inflation is 2% now, though anyone who goes out and buys groceries know that is not true. Milk going from $3.5 to $3.8 is 10% , a can of beans going from $.7 to $.77 is 10%. Just because laptops and phones are becoming cheaper doesnt mean inflation is under control.

Im happy for you that you dont mind to pay social security, I think you should be able to. It doesnt mean you have to force me pay also.

What I want to invest my money in is none of your buisness, though I see you enjoy wanting to have control over what I do with my own money.

I dont see whats the point of throwing insults at me, but I do have family and friends who can help in the time of need. Just because you feel that someone is going to come ask you for money in the future doesnt give you the right to force someone to particpate in a program with their money. I wont force you to give me money one day if I need it, if Im desperate I may ask you, but never force. Though you dont feel the same way and feel as if you should force me to pay into social security and medicare. There is really nothing here to discuss. Like I said fundamentally we disagree, I believe in people having freedom and taking their own risks, you believe that we cant be allowed to make our own choices because you simply know whats good for us.

 

[deleted103644]

Please find a better source than shadow stats. Seriously.

The Billion Price Project is based out of MIT. Much more reputable source.

There's also the interesting piece of trivia that Shadow Stats is still charging the same subscription fee ($175) they did 6 years ago, so inflation can't be that bad.

 

[0phthalmologist]

Please find a better source than shadow stats. Seriously.

The Billion Price Project is based out of MIT. Much more reputable source.

There's also the interesting piece of trivia that Shadow Stats is still charging the same subscription fee ($175) they did 6 years ago, so inflation can't be that bad.

Honestly if you want to know true inflation its best to keep track yourself. Politicians and special interests will always find ways to massage the numbers to make things dont seem so bad. Take a look at this website, he has been collecting info on everyday goods as the years have gone by.

http://www.thepeoplehistory.com/pricebasket.html

I believe him because its very similar to my experience at the grocery store. I dont keep a log book like him but I def notice food and stuff costing more even if its a few cents which is a big percent. The problem is if you look on the same site the average wage hasnt really changed but prices on foods and commodoties have gone up. This is why I dont trust the government to give back money based on real inflation. And as you can see from this site and Im sure your own experienec at the grocery store, inflation is def not 2%. It maybe 2% on tech like laptops, phones, or cars, but how often do you buy those?

 

[pseudosquam]

As a percentage of our income food is cheaper than ever. I buy pounds of fruit for a couple dollars. One 4lb piece of roast gets me through a week for 8 bucks. I do also feel like the inflation nuts are always sounding the alarm bells and blaming the government for cooking the books with no evidence to support it.

I also notice the same group tells us how much more violent/dangerous the world is even though evidence doesn't support that claim either. I think both these beliefs are rooted in their "world going to hell in a hand basket" dogma.

 

[0phthalmologist]

As a percentage of our income food is cheaper than ever. I buy pounds of fruit for a couple dollars. One 4lb piece of roast gets me through a week for 8 bucks. I do also feel like the inflation nuts are always sounding the alarm bells and blaming the government for cooking the books with no evidence to support it.

I also notice the same group tells us how much more violent/dangerous the world is even though evidence doesn't support that claim either. I think both these beliefs are rooted in their "world going to hell in a hand basket" dogma.

I really dont know what to tell you. The link I just cited shows a guy recording his grocery prices through the years and how prices have increased. Are you honestly telling me you dont notice food prices at the stores going up? The income on the middle class is also not going up any where near the food prices, and people are losing their jobs on top of that. Its amazes me that people think the idea of their government lying to them is impossible. I use to buy a fully cooked whole chicken for $5 two years ago, now its $5.5 at the same store, thats 10%. Though I guess most people will just see it as only 50 cents. Too bad every bit adds up.

 

[circulus vitios]

http://www.shadowstats.com/article/consumer_price_index

CPI has not always been calculated the same. They claim inflation is 2% now, though anyone who goes out and buys groceries know that is not true. Milk going from $3.5 to $3.8 is 10% , a can of beans going from $.7 to $.77 is 10%. Just because laptops and phones are becoming cheaper doesnt mean inflation is under control.

The CPI, which is a composite, is not swayed by changes in small numbers of individual items? Well, I never!

 

[0phthalmologist]

The CPI, which is a composite, is not swayed by changes in small numbers of individual items? Well, I never!

Just because I did not list every single grocery doesnt mean I dont think their prices have also gone up. Did you ever think that the price of all comodities and groceries are going up because the value of the dollar is getting weaker? Instead of mocking me, maybe you should consider that just because the government says CPI is the correct measure of inflation that may not be true. Ive already showed a site where someone has been keeping track of everyday groceries and shown how the prices have increased. This is what matters in the end. How much we pay for the stuff we use everyday and how much we get paid to pay for that stuff. You can believe the government and academics when they say inflation is only2% or you can actually go outside and take a look at what you buy and compare it to last years price.

 

[deleted103644]

Honestly if you want to know true inflation its best to keep track yourself. Politicians and special interests will always find ways to massage the numbers to make things dont seem so bad. Take a look at this website, he has been collecting info on everyday goods as the years have gone by.

http://www.thepeoplehistory.com/pricebasket.html

I believe him because its very similar to my experience at the grocery store. I dont keep a log book like him but I def notice food and stuff costing more even if its a few cents which is a big percent. The problem is if you look on the same site the average wage hasnt really changed but prices on foods and commodoties have gone up. This is why I dont trust the government to give back money based on real inflation. And as you can see from this site and Im sure your own experienec at the grocery store, inflation is def not 2%. It maybe 2% on tech like laptops, phones, or cars, but how often do you buy those?

Want to know why food is more expensive this year (and also why it's usually left out of measures of inflation)?

Because we've had a huge ****ing drought and the corn crop is ruined for this season. That increases prices of almost everything in the grocery store, particularly goods with HFCS and meat (corn feed).

The Billion Price Project uses the prices of billions of goods online to measure inflation. It is more accurate than your casual musings over the price of your Lucky Charms.

 

[deleted103644]

Just because I did not list every single grocery doesnt mean I dont think their prices have also gone up. Did you ever think that the price of all comodities and groceries are going up because the value of the dollar is getting weaker? Instead of mocking me, maybe you should consider that just because the government says CPI is the correct measure of inflation that may not be true. Ive already showed a site where someone has been keeping track of everyday groceries and shown how the prices have increased. This is what matters in the end. How much we pay for the stuff we use everyday and how much we get paid to pay for that stuff. You can believe the government and academics when they say inflation is only2% or you can actually go outside and take a look at what you buy and compare it to last years price.

Again, I see your lone nutjob bloggers and raise you economy/comp sci PhD's from MIT:

http://bpp.mit.edu/

 

[0phthalmologist]

Want to know why food is more expensive this year (and also why it's usually left out of measures of inflation)?

Because we've had a huge ****ing drought and the corn crop is ruined for this season. That increases prices of almost everything in the grocery store, particularly goods with HFCS and meat (corn feed).

The Billion Price Project uses the prices of billions of goods online to measure inflation. It is more accurate than your casual musings over the price of your Lucky Charms.

There is no reason to curse, it just shows that your insecure and cant make a credible argument. Corn drought doesnt explain why the prices of all groceries have been going up. It is the value of the dollar that is dropping. This has become very apparent since the two rounds of quantitative easing that the federal reserve has done which is printing money and injecting it into the economy. Please take a look at the dollar index (DXY) history. This explains the rise of food, commodity and gold prices, not because there is a corn drought. Commodities are denominated in USD, so a drop in its power will cause an increase in commodity prices.

Its obvious that you are oblivious to real inflation or have any understanding of it because you simply defer to some academic website without taking a look at how they are getting their rate. Though anyone who goes out and shops for groceries have noticed that prices have increased, especially some of us who are on a budget and keep track of these things.

 

[DOC PENGUIN]

There is no reason to curse, it just shows that your insecure and cant make a credible argument. Corn drought doesnt explain why the prices of all groceries have been going up. It is the value of the dollar that is dropping. This has become very apparent since the two rounds of quantitative easing that the federal reserve has done which is printing money and injecting it into the economy. Please take a look at the dollar index (DXY) history. This explains the rise of food, commodity and gold prices, not because there is a corn drought. Commodities are denominated in USD, so a drop in its power will cause an increase in commodity prices.

Its obvious that you are oblivious to real inflation or have any understanding of it because you simply defer to some academic website without taking a look at how they are getting their rate. Though anyone who goes out and shops for groceries have noticed that prices have increased, especially some of us who are on a budget and keep track of these things.

What about Austrian School Economists from the Mises Institute and CATO?

 

[0phthalmologist]

What about Austrian School Economists from the Mises Institute and CATO?

What about them?

 

[deleted103644]

There is no reason to curse, it just shows that your insecure and cant make a credible argument.

I like ****ing cursing. And it's "you're" numbskull.

Corn drought doesnt explain why the prices of all groceries have been going up.

1) It can.
2) They're not.

It is the value of the dollar that is dropping. This has become very apparent since the two rounds of quantitative easing that the federal reserve has done which is printing money and injecting it into the economy. Please take a look at the dollar index (DXY) history. This explains the rise of food, commodity and gold prices, not because there is a corn drought. Commodities are denominated in USD, so a drop in its power will cause an increase in commodity prices.

Its obvious that you are oblivious to real inflation or have any understanding of it because you simply defer to some academic website without taking a look at how they are getting their rate. Though anyone who goes out and shops for groceries have noticed that prices have increased, especially some of us who are on a budget and keep track of these things.

I actually did look into the Billion Price Project's methodology a bit, and it's far more scientific than your "analysis". (Notice also my correct use of the word, "your".)

Seriously, stop reading conspiracy blogs.

 

[0phthalmologist]

I like ****ing cursing. And it's "you're" numbskull.




1) It can.
2) They're not.



I actually did look into the Billion Price Project's methodology a bit, and it's far more scientific than your "analysis". (Notice also my correct use of the word, "your".)

Seriously, stop reading conspiracy blogs.

You call it conspiracy blog but anyone who has been shopping know that prices for groceries are going up. Are you saying the person on that website is making his numbers up? Because to me I have also seen these changes.

You clearly have a lack of understanding of monetary policy if you believe the reason why all commodities are rising in price for the last 10 years is due to a corn drought this year as oppose to a weaker USD which is what commodities are dominated in. This why whenever the USD rallies the price of gas and milk drop. Though I suspect you did not take a look at the DXY charts as I suggested. The last two rounds of quantitative easing by our central back has really spiked the prices in commodities and metals because they created money to buy back debt.

Name calling also makes you look insecure. Though Im sure everyone who lives in the real world and does their own grocery shopping know that real prices are increasing and know who is on the correct side of this argument.

 

[deleted103644]

You call it conspiracy blog but anyone who has been shopping know that prices for groceries are going up. Are you saying the person on that website is making his numbers up? Because to me I have also seen these changes.

Are you saying I don't shop? I have not observed the same "trend".

You clearly have a lack of understanding of monetary policy if you believe the reason why all commodities are rising in price for the last 10 years is due to a corn drought this year as oppose to a weaker USD which is what commodities are dominated in. This why whenever the USD rallies the price of gas and milk drop. Though I suspect you did not take a look at the DXY charts as I suggested. The last two rounds of quantitative easing by our central back has really spiked the prices in commodities and metals because they created money to buy back debt.

Name calling also makes you look insecure. Though Im sure everyone who lives in the real world and does their own grocery shopping know that real prices are increasing and know who is on the correct side of this argument.

You mean this chart? Yes, very ominous. Scroll back a few years and maybe you'll stop panicking.

The prices of things like gas and food are very sensitive to things that have nothing to do with inflation. That's why they're left out of most serious measures of inflation.

The price of gas tells you much more about the political climate in the middle east and the economies of India and China than it does about inflation.

Likewise, food prices are very dependent on crop yields aka weather.

And if you want me to stop calling you a numbskull, stop acting like one.

 

[0phthalmologist]

Are you saying I don't shop? I have not observed the same "trend".



You mean this chart? Yes, very ominous. Scroll back a few years and maybe you'll stop panicking.

The prices of things like gas and food are very sensitive to things that have nothing to do with inflation. That's why they're left out of most serious measures of inflation.

The price of gas tells you much more about the political climate in the middle east and the economies of India and China than it does about inflation.

Likewise, food prices are very dependent on crop yields aka weather.

And if you want me to stop calling you a numbskull, stop acting like one.

This is the classic reason why governments claim they cant include the true effect of food and energy within their inflation calculations. Thats why in core-cpi they totally omit it. You also have to keep in mind that the DXY is the dollar compared to other currencies, if other central banks also have easing policies their currency will weaken and the dollar will appear strong.

Political climate does effect gas prices, but those are only at certain events. The overall trend of gas prices depends on the power of the dollar because you need USD to buy gas from OPEC.

If you want to see the true drop in the strength of the dollar all you have to do is look at gold which has been money for thousands of years. The price of gold in 2001 was $300 an ounce, but after running up so much debt and printing money the price is now $1650 an ounce. If you look at the dollar index in the same time it has also dropped. Every time the federal reserve announced a round of quantitative easing the price of gold and commodities shot up while the dollar index dipped. Mid-september the federal reserve is having another meeting to determine if they will launch QE3, which why a lot of economist are paying attention to see what bernanke will say and how it will effect the market. If there another round is announced, the dollar will drop in value and all commodities including your groceries will see a rise in price. These are the facts, you can either learn about them or keep name calling.

Its really sad that you think its acceptable to leave food and energy out of the calculation of inflation considering that is what most people are buying everyday.

 

[0phthalmologist]

Are you saying I don't shop? I have not observed the same "trend".



You mean this chart? Yes, very ominous. Scroll back a few years and maybe you'll stop panicking.

The prices of things like gas and food are very sensitive to things that have nothing to do with inflation. That's why they're left out of most serious measures of inflation.

The price of gas tells you much more about the political climate in the middle east and the economies of India and China than it does about inflation.

Likewise, food prices are very dependent on crop yields aka weather.

And if you want me to stop calling you a numbskull, stop acting like one.

Also the DXY chart you attached does not go far enough. This is a 10 year chart. The dollar index was 120 in 2001 as opposed to now where its in the low 80s. Again I prefer the price of gold for measurement of currency weakness because the DXY is linked to other currencies that have central banks that can also inflate their value.

 

[deleted103644]

This is the classic reason why governments claim they cant include the true effect of food and energy within their inflation calculations. Thats why in core-cpi they totally omit it. You also have to keep in mind that the DXY is the dollar compared to other currencies, if other central banks also have easing policies their currency will weaken and the dollar will appear strong.

Political climate does effect gas prices, but those are only at certain events. The overall trend of gas prices depends on the power of the dollar because you need USD to buy gas from OPEC.

If you want to see the true drop in the strength of the dollar all you have to do is look at gold which has been money for thousands of years. The price of gold in 2001 was $300 an ounce, but after running up so much debt and printing money the price is now $1650 an ounce. If you look at the dollar index in the same time it has also dropped. Every time the federal reserve announced a round of quantitative easing the price of gold and commodities shot up while the dollar index dipped. Mid-september the federal reserve is having another meeting to determine if they will launch QE3, which why a lot of economist are paying attention to see what bernanke will say and how it will effect the market. If there another round is announced, the dollar will drop in value and all commodities including your groceries will see a rise in price. These are the facts, you can either learn about them or keep name calling.

Its really sad that you think its acceptable to leave food and energy out of the calculation of inflation considering that is what most people are buying everyday.

There are very good reasons to omit food and energy - those prices don't really track with everything else, so following them adds confounding variables.

I'm not saying to disregard the price of food and gas completely in terms of public policy (please tell me you aren't complaining about this and simultaneously arguing against food stamps). I'm just saying that it shouldn't be considered inflation. Food and energy are mostly separate issues from real inflation.

Not going to get dragged into the gold boondoggle. I'm sick of trying to reason with goldbugs. I hope you're investing in gold though, it will be hilarious when you realize you made a mistake. The nominal value may not go down, but it's a horrible investment right now. There are much less overpriced hedges against inflation.

Then again, what am I talking about?

You're probably an indebted pre-med, medical student, or resident, in which case you should be ecstatic about inflation that reduces your debt burden.

 

[0phthalmologist]

I also took a look into your corn theory. As you can see from the 10 year chart, the production of corn has been increasing. Production was much less if you look even further back. Yes there is a production drop in 2012, but that does not explain why the prices of food and groceries in this country have been rising the way they are in the last 10 years. You may not think there is a price increase in food, but many people who actually buy their own grocery and are on budgets noticed this. Someone even made a blog recording his yearly purchases which reflect my observation and many others who go shopping. Sure a drought effects the price of corn, but when the price of all commodities including gold are uniformly increased you cant simply blame everything on corn production.

http://media.photobucket.com/image/recent/Kalpa2/chartsKalpaBigPictureAgriculture/2-151.png

 

[deleted103644]

I also took a look into your corn theory. As you can see from the 10 year chart, the production of corn has been increasing. Production was much less if you look even further back. Yes there is a production drop in 2012, but that does not explain why the prices of food and groceries in this country have been rising the way they are in the last 10 years. You may not think there is a price increase in food, but many people who actually buy their own grocery and are on budgets noticed this. Someone even made a blog recording his yearly purchases which reflect my observation and many others who go shopping. Sure a drought effects the price of corn, but when the price of all commodities including gold are uniformly increased you cant simply blame everything on corn production.

http://media.photobucket.com/image/recent/Kalpa2/chartsKalpaBigPictureAgriculture/2-151.png

Why do you keep accusing me of not buying my own groceries? I do.

There is a very bad drought this year. I'm not saying anything about food prices in previous years.

You also really need to stop including gold in your rationalizations. Gold is overpriced right now because interest rates are low, not necessarily because of inflation. It makes sense for some investors to hold gold if they can't get a decent interest rate on treasuries. You also have gold nuts buying the stuff and making it more valuable than platinum (at least for a little bit, may still be there, not sure).

You should read this for a better explanation: http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/09/06/treasuries-tips-and-gold-wonkish/

 

[0phthalmologist]

Why do you keep accusing me of not buying my own groceries? I do.

There is a very bad drought this year. I'm not saying anything about food prices in previous years.

You also really need to stop including gold in your rationalizations. Gold is overpriced right now because interest rates are low, not necessarily because of inflation. It makes sense for some investors to hold gold if they can't get a decent interest rate on treasuries. You also have gold nuts buying the stuff and making it more valuable than platinum (at least for a little bit, may still be there, not sure).

You should read this for a better explanation: http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/09/06/treasuries-tips-and-gold-wonkish/

And the reason interest rates are low is because the federal reserves keeps them low by expanding credit (printing money). Which is every time the federal reserve announces that they will keep interest rates low like they did last year when they said they would keep it low interest rates as long as 2014 as oppose to 2013 which they promised the price of gold and all commodities rose sharply and the value of the USD dropped. The drop was so dramatic at the time of the announcement that it looked like a vertical line on the charts. This is a graph of M2 money supply, as you can see our printing of money and creation of credit has risen dramatically. If you look around 2008 in that graph u see a little spike, thats where the financial crises went down. Im already familiar with krugman and keynsian economics.

 

[deleted103644]

And the reason interest rates are low is because the federal reserves keeps them low by expanding credit (printing money). Which is every time the federal reserve announces that they will keep interest rates low like they did last year when they said they would keep it low interest rates as long as 2014 as oppose to 2013 which they promised the price of gold and all commodities rose sharply and the value of the USD dropped. The drop was so dramatic at the time of the announcement that it looked like a vertical line on the charts. This is a graph of M2 money supply, as you can see our printing of money and creation of credit has risen dramatically. If you look around 2008 in that graph u see a little spike, thats where the financial crises went down. Im already familiar with krugman and keynsian economics.

Scary, an exponential graph!

Looks pretty steady to me. You know the population and GDP graphs look pretty similar, right?

I'll leave you alone now, but it will be funny seeing you saying the same things next year when your hyperinflation continues to fail to emerge.

 

[DOC PENGUIN]

What about them?

Why do most people think of them as brosciency *******es. I mean the modern ones are (unless it is Ron Paul, Robert P Murphy and Tom Woods.) In olden days, it was the accepted fact (Menger's time.) A lot of Austrian Economist helped with Rebuilding West Germany. Hayek and Mises were world renown and Mises taught in progressive NYU! Hayek was a lover of Psychology and wrote philosophy. Hayek is also a british figure. Today's austrians aren't as world renown or loved. The closest one is Milton Friedman.

 

[DOC PENGUIN]

Please find a better source than shadow stats. Seriously.

The Billion Price Project is based out of MIT. Much more reputable source.

There's also the interesting piece of trivia that Shadow Stats is still charging the same subscription fee ($175) they did 6 years ago, so inflation can't be that bad.

The best of calculating Inflation is the time spent to make enough money to afford those good.

 

[deleted103644]

The best of calculating Inflation is the time spent to make enough money to afford those good.

How about after tax income divided by CPI less food + energy?

Here you go. Huge drop in the 70s, not much change now. What this doesn't capture is the increasing share of disposable income in a very small percentage of the population.

Or with F + E:

 

[0phthalmologist]

Scary, an exponential graph!

Looks pretty steady to me. You know the population and GDP graphs look pretty similar, right?

I'll leave you alone now, but it will be funny seeing you saying the same things next year when your hyperinflation continues to fail to emerge.

You just posted the same graph as I did. Its just that your graph makes it look steady because if you look at the Y axis the values are shoved closer together as the numbers rise. Both our graphs show that M2 was 1500 in 1980 and 9000 in 2011, this is an exponential increase and the price of gold has corresponded to this since it is denominated in USD.

Again you try to put words in my mouth. No one said hyperinflation is going to happen next year. What I said is that the prices of everyday goods like groceries are rising much faster than the 2% that the government is claiming, more around 10%. I say this based on my own experience from keeping a budget and pointing to other sites that have been keeping track of these changes in the real world. Though maybe from this conversation you will pay more attention to the prices when you go out shopping and will compare them to the next year.

 

[0phthalmologist]

Why do most people think of them as brosciency *******es. I mean the modern ones are (unless it is Ron Paul, Robert P Murphy and Tom Woods.) In olden days, it was the accepted fact (Menger's time.) A lot of Austrian Economist helped with Rebuilding West Germany. Hayek and Mises were world renown and Mises taught in progressive NYU! Hayek was a lover of Psychology and wrote philosophy. Hayek is also a british figure. Today's austrians aren't as world renown or loved. The closest one is Milton Friedman.

From my understanding the austrian economists are not part of the mainstream conversation of economics because their policies mostly dictate that real wealth comes from savings and not debt. They also do not believe in having a central bank and feel that the market should dictate interest rates. Essentially they are against the price fixing of money itself. Atleast this is my understanding of them. Of course with that ideology it would be hard to get any sort of attention since the big banks rely on the federal reserve to give them interest free loans to lend to the general population at much higher interest and the media of this country is controlled by corportations and special interests that benifit greatly through this relationaship with our central bank.

 

[deleted103644]

You just posted the same graph as I did. Its just that your graph makes it look steady because if you look at the Y axis the values are shoved closer together as the numbers rise. Both our graphs show that M2 was 1500 in 1980 and 9000 in 2011, this is an exponential increase and the price of gold has corresponded to this since it is denominated in USD.

Again you try to put words in my mouth. No one said hyperinflation is going to happen next year. What I said is that the prices of everyday goods like groceries are rising much faster than the 2% that the government is claiming, more around 10%. I say this based on my own experience from keeping a budget and pointing to other sites that have been keeping track of these changes in the real world. Though maybe from this conversation you will pay more attention to the prices when you go out shopping and will compare them to the next year.

I showed you a logarithmic graph (this is appropriate for looking at exponential curves and can be more informative). The fact you don't know what a logarithmic plot is makes me even more skeptical of your analytical ability. Of course the money supply increases exponentially - it should considering so dies the population and the GDP.

My prices have not increased 10% from last year, some have even gone down. Overall, your examples are anecdotal or fringe.

 

[0phthalmologist]

I showed you a logarithmic graph (this is appropriate for looking at exponential curves and can be more informative). The fact you don't know what a logarithmic plot is makes me even more skeptical of your analytical ability. Of course the money supply increases exponentially - it should considering so dies the population and the GDP.

My prices have not increased 10% from last year, some have even gone down. Overall, your examples are anecdotal or fringe.

I understand what a log curve is, and the reason I wouldnt use it is because it hides the nature of the exponential increase and makes it look like everything is steady and stable, which is clearly not.

If you accept that the money supply should grow exponentially than why dont you just buy gold, since as shown from the graphs when you increase the money supply it devalues the dollar and causes the price of gold and other commodities to increase. Though I dont see how the two rounds of quantitiave easing by the federal reserve that injected more than $1 trillion dollars in such a short span (take a look at the bumb around 2008, u can actually see it in both graphs) accounts for population growth.


You claim my examples are fringe and anecdotal, though I showed you a website of someone recording their prices as the years have gone by. Many people I have talked to have noticed an increase when shopping for groceries. Though it would be hard to notice since the changes in cents is very little for example, can of beans going from 70 cents to 77 cents or milk going from 3.5 to 3.8. Do you truly believe that guy just made up those numbers on his blog and Im just lying to you about my own experiences?

You may continue to believe in this delusion that food prices are stable or going down, but most people know whats going on.

 

[pseudosquam]

Oph. You just don't get it. Your blogs are ridiculous. They're akin to your patients who come in and say that going to the chiropractor to help with their eye problems because they read a blog where a lot of people experienced relief after beginning chiropractic therapy. It's the definition of anecdotal because of the small sample size and no control over confounding variables.

Gold is over priced right now. Why would you buy it?

I think you spend too much time on right-wing-hack-economists sites/radio. Apply the same rigor to your understanding of economics as you do medicine and you'll realize how ridiculous you're being - non-academic/non-professional web sties are not proof of USD inflation.

I've noticed that anytime you're challenged you apply a conspiracy argument rather than evidence to support for your argument. Why do you do that?

EDIT: Read more on QE. I think you're confusing it with direct stimulus. I'm basing this off your assumptions of QE on the money supply & inflation.

I understand what a log curve is, and the reason I wouldnt use it is because it hides the nature of the exponential increase and makes it look like everything is steady and stable, which is clearly not.

If you accept that the money supply should grow exponentially than why dont you just buy gold, since as shown from the graphs when you increase the money supply it devalues the dollar and causes the price of gold and other commodities to increase. Though I dont see how the two rounds of quantitiave easing by the federal reserve that injected more than $1 trillion dollars in such a short span (take a look at the bumb around 2008, u can actually see it in both graphs) accounts for population growth.


You claim my examples are fringe and anecdotal, though I showed you a website of someone recording their prices as the years have gone by. Many people I have talked to have noticed an increase when shopping for groceries. Though it would be hard to notice since the changes in cents is very little for example, can of beans going from 70 cents to 77 cents or milk going from 3.5 to 3.8. Do you truly believe that guy just made up those numbers on his blog and Im just lying to you about my own experiences?

You may continue to believe in this delusion that food prices are stable or going down, but most people know whats going on.