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[Pluto98]

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[Zolift!]

You will get good training in most programs due to ACGME implemented standards.
No one cares about minor perceived nuances in prestige. It's hard to go wrong with an Ivy league. Any Ivy league.
Choose based on location. Congratulations on your wonderful choices!

 

[Mynameisnobody]

Yaleeeee!
bc stress free!!

 

[Grapesurgery]

You seem to be leaning more towards Yale for perceived prestige beyond Medicine, but at the same time you seem to believe Penn has a stronger clinical training. Since you are going in medicine, after all, I think you should go for penn in that aspect.
You know your study habits— will you fit well with the Yale system or will you be motivated to learn more with more structure? Also consider the thesis requirement of Yale, which is a positive or negative depending on if you enjoy that much research. I believe the thesis is on average a 40-80pg work.
You say location isn’t a factor but I would definitely sit on that idea though. They’re quite different and 4-5 years is quite a long time.
Like the other person said though, with this decision there’s definitely no wrong choice! Good luck!

Disclaimer(?): I am also considering both schools but almost certainly choosing Penn. waiting for aid.

 

[Pluto98]

You seem to be leaning more towards Yale for perceived prestige beyond Medicine, but at the same time you seem to believe Penn has a stronger clinical training. Since you are going in medicine, after all, I think you should go for penn in that aspect.
You know your study habits— will you fit well with the Yale system or will you be motivated to learn more with more structure? Also consider the thesis requirement of Yale, which is a positive or negative depending on if you enjoy that much research. I believe the thesis is on average a 40-80pg work.
You say location isn’t a factor but I would definitely sit on that idea though. They’re quite different and 4-5 years is quite a long time.
Like the other person said though, with this decision there’s definitely no wrong choice! Good luck!

Disclaimer(?): I am also considering both schools but almost certainly choosing Penn. waiting for aid.

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[ItAintEasyBeingCheesy]

You seem to be very concerned with prestige. To the people that matter (PDs, attendings, etc.), Penn wins. When it comes to impressing family and friends, Yale wins. Only you can decide what you value more.

As far as stress goes, I don't see what the hype over Yale is. Yale still has a 4-tier grading scheme (honors/high pass/pass/fail) for 3rd-year, making it the same as Penn. Only difference is Penn has a few more mandatory sessions during pre-clinicals, which imo, are a plus since they let you connect with classmates and make friends in a low-stress P/F setting.

 

[Pluto98]

You seem to be very concerned with prestige. To the people that matter (PDs, attendings, etc.), Penn wins. When it comes to impressing family and friends, Yale wins. Only you can decide what you value more.

As far as stress goes, I don't see what the hype over Yale is. Yale still has a 4-tier grading scheme (honors/high pass/pass/fail) for 3rd-year, making it the same as Penn. Only difference is Penn has a few more mandatory sessions during pre-clinicals, which imo, are a plus since they let you connect with classmates and make friends in a low-stress P/F setting.

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[Ayyeplus]

I'm also considering these two schools and really want to be convinced that I won't regret going to New Haven over the 4 years I could've spent in Philadelphia . And I feel choosing Penn to potentially not pursue a competitive speciality will make me wish I took advantage of Yale's less stressful curriculum.... *shrugs*

As a med student with limited free time, is it even worth having a great city that I can only enjoy for a few hours every few weeks? Maybe it's a wash.

 

[Dream of the Endless]

As far as stress goes, I don't see what the hype over Yale is. Yale still has a 4-tier grading scheme (honors/high pass/pass/fail) for 3rd-year, making it the same as Penn. Only difference is Penn has a few more mandatory sessions during pre-clinicals, which imo, are a plus since they let you connect with classmates and make friends in a low-stress P/F setting.

Don't forget Penn has a chapter of AOA in addition to that ranking and honors restriction. And I'm pretty sure Yale doesn't have AOA lol. Which doesn't really matter unless you're interested in Ortho, Derm, ENT, Optho and I want to say Plastics?? They all have ~35-40%+ students that match from AOA, which is significant

I'd say pick Yale if you don't want the stress. If you don't mind the extra competition, go to Penn. I believe the clinical training you'd receive at Penn would be superior.

Disclaimer: I am waiting to hear back about 21st Century before I make my decision, but I'm leaning towards not attending Penn. Seems like unnecessary stress when I have extra responsibilities already for my career. Didn't apply to Yale

 

[Pluto98]

Don't forget Penn has a chapter of AOA in addition to that ranking and honors restriction. And I'm pretty sure Yale doesn't have AOA lol. Which doesn't really matter unless you're interested in Ortho, Derm, ENT, Optho and I want to say Plastics?? They all have ~35-40%+ students that match from AOA, which is significant

I'd say pick Yale if you don't want the stress. If you don't mind the extra competition, go to Penn. I believe the clinical training you'd receive at Penn would be superior.

Disclaimer: I am waiting to hear back about 21st Century before I make my decision, but I'm leaning towards not attending Penn. Seems like unnecessary stress when I have extra responsibilities already for my career. Didn't apply to Yale

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[deleted972488]

Choose Penn

 

[Pluto98]

Choose Penn

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[deleted972488]

Why

+++ Top residencies in almost every field
+++ very strong clinical training

+ got the sense that my medical training would be outstanding come from here

 

[ItAintEasyBeingCheesy]

With the release of the new rankings, I think the choice is clear for OP: Penn

 

[Pluto98]

With the release of the new rankings, I think the choice is clear for OP: Penn

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[SleazySalesMed]

With the release of the new rankings, I think the choice is clear for OP: Penn

They went from 5 to 3, relax. I could understand if you said "It's clear now" for NYU that jumped over the dragon's gate all the way up into the T5 lmao. Penn has always provided the better education, and should have been your choice. Besides Philadelphia>> New Haven.

Unless you just want to chill all 4 years, which is also understandable. Not like a T20 mainstay is gonna struggle to match anyways.

 

[ratrat]

Look at both match lists.
Eg. Yale Bulletin.
Yale matched in 2019 like a top 5 school.

 

[Engrailed]

Both are extremely prestigious if that’s what you’re mainly concerned about. Overall, I think Yale would be less stressful bc of their Pass Fail system.

Otherwise, I think both are excellent and career opportunities would be abundant regardless of where you decide.

 

[Pluto98]

Both are extremely prestigious if that’s what you’re mainly concerned about. Overall, I think Yale would be less stressful bc of their Pass Fail system.

Otherwise, I think both are excellent and career opportunities would be abundant regardless of where you decide.

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[Engrailed]

thanks I agree with you. The low stress combined with an amazing financial aid package (free tuition) is swaying me towards Yale. There is also a certain catchet in saying Yale at cocktail parties (as I’m sure you of all people can relate to!)

the “super chill” curriculum that you highlight as a pro for Yale is priceless and imo vastly outweighs the more competitive nature at Penn. and not to mention, the finaid package! Go Yale and dont look back

 

[Pluto98]

the “super chill” curriculum that you highlight as a pro for Yale is priceless and imo vastly outweighs the more competitive nature at Penn. and not to mention, the finaid package! Go Yale and dont look back

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[ItAintEasyBeingCheesy]

They went from 5 to 3, relax. I could understand if you said "It's clear now" for NYU that jumped over the dragon's gate all the way up into the T5 lmao. Penn has always provided the better education, and should have been your choice. Besides Philadelphia>> New Haven.

Unless you just want to chill all 4 years, which is also understandable. Not like a T20 mainstay is gonna struggle to match anyways.

I was more referring to the fact that Yale is now #15. Not to mention their MCAT median has dropped from 522 to 518 from last year (went from having the highest to now one of the lowest medians of the T20 in the span of 1 cycle). Considering how every other T20s median MCAT has increased or remained the same, they’re likely losing talent to other top schools. Seems like they’re on a sharp decline.

 

[meronebib]

I was more referring to the fact that Yale is now #15. Not to mention their MCAT median has dropped from 522 to 518 (went from having the highest to now one of the lowest medians of the T20). Considering how every other T20s median MCAT has increased or remained the same, they’re likely losing talent to other top schools. Seems like they’re on a sharp decline.

Yale is too much of a force to decline--it's a brand name. Even if its medical school doesn't have the resources that Penn has, the prestige associated with the Yale name from its OTHER schools (undergrad, law school, etc.), or simply from how many presidents went to Yale, carry its name so highly that PDs will always view it favorably. I really doubt PDs are sitting around and monitoring US News rankings or average MCAT scores every year--many probably still regard Yale as a T5 school...

Edit: Also, to answer OP, I would pick Penn now given that I believe Philly is a better location and that it is cheaper. If Yale matches, I would strongly consider them--their way of doing things is just unmatched and to be frank, I feel like most students these days are teaching themselves anyway. No AOA, P/F for both preclinical and clinical, and now Step 1 going P/F, you're practically set by just being accepted to Yale. Not to mention that I can't imagine their class to be competitive at all; I've hard many things about Penn, and one common theme is that their students are competitive (I was actually told this by the students during my interview). I'm sure that has some role in why their Step 1 average is always so high!

 

[Pluto98]

I was more referring to the fact that Yale is now #15. Not to mention their MCAT median has dropped from 522 to 518 (went from having the highest to now one of the lowest medians of the T20). Considering how every other T20s median MCAT has increased or remained the same, they’re likely losing talent to other top schools. Seems like they’re on a sharp decline.

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[DarkHorizon]

Seems kind of strange for Yale to be the only T20 to deemphasize stats when the rest of the league is placing increasing importance on numbers.

And let me provide a different point of view regarding ranking: The fact that Penn has AOA should be seen as an opportunity, not a burden. A chance to further distinguish yourself. A non-AOA Penn grad will be seen in the same light as a Yale grad (both will be perceived as non-AOA by PDs). An AOA Penn student on the other hand will for sure have an edge over a Yale student, all else being equal.

If you look at the way Penn does MSPE letters, even the worst students are still praised as being “excellent” in a fashion likely similar to how Yale reviews its students. It just so happens if you perform above average, Penn will help you stand out.

Think of it like this: Yale and Penn both write the same baseline letters for all their students. Only Penn has the ability to add sprinkles and cherries for their above average students, helping distinguish them. Their below average students will have a letter similar to Yale’s. At worst, you’ll look like a Yale student. At best, you’ll look better.

With Step 1 going P/F, the need to distinguish yourself is more important than ever. Penn gives you that, Yale doesn’t.

lol, only on SDN will you see a response like this.

OP, in all seriousness, go wherever you’ll fit in better and it’s cheaper. Highly, highly doubt that applicants from Yale have any less opportunities than Penn. No one in the real world cares.

 

[meronebib]

Seems kind of strange for Yale to be the only T20 to deemphasize stats when the rest of the league is placing increasing importance on numbers.

Harvard is not following this trend.

And let me provide a different point of view regarding ranking: The fact that Penn has AOA should be seen as an opportunity, not a burden. A chance to further distinguish yourself. A non-AOA Penn grad will be seen in the same light as a Yale grad (both will be perceived as non-AOA by PDs). An AOA Penn student on the other hand will for sure have an edge over a Yale student, all else being equal.

If you look at the way Penn does MSPE letters, even the worst students are still praised as being “excellent” in a fashion likely similar to how Yale reviews its students. It just so happens if you perform above average, Penn will help you stand out.

Think of it like this: Yale and Penn both write the same baseline letters for all their students. Only Penn has the ability to add sprinkles and cherries for their above average students, helping distinguish them. Their below average students will have a letter similar to Yale’s. At worst, you’ll look like a Yale student. At best, you’ll look better.

With Step 1 going P/F, the need to distinguish yourself is more important than ever. Penn gives you that, Yale doesn’t.

I get your point. But there's a reality that 75% of the Penn class will NOT be getting AOA. And I do not think a non-AOA Penn student would be viewed the same as any ol' Yale student. Failing to get AOA hurts more than not having the opportunity to get AOA. I believe this is why many schools that have AOA are shifting to announcing that decision after the match (Hopkins, Columbia, etc.). I don't know if Penn actually does this.

I also really think Yale's match list speaks for itself--it is nowhere near the other schools ranked 10-20.

 

[Pluto98]

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[ItAintEasyBeingCheesy]

Harvard is not following this trend.



I get your point. But there's a reality that 75% of the Penn class will NOT be getting AOA. And I do not think a non-AOA Penn student would be viewed the same as any ol' Yale student. Failing to get AOA hurts more than not having the opportunity to get AOA. I believe this is why many schools that have AOA are shifting to announcing that decision after the match (Hopkins, Columbia, etc.). I don't know if Penn actually does this.

I also really think Yale's match list speaks for itself--it is nowhere near the other schools ranked 10-20.

Like the dude above me said. No one cares. People will see you as non-AOA or AOA. All the non-AOA’s get lumped together. No one has time or energy to figure out which schools do AOA.

 

[Pluto98]

Like the dude above me said. No one cares. People will see you as non-AOA or AOA. All the non-AOA’s get lumped together. No one has time or energy to figure out which schools do AOA.

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[meronebib]

Like the dude above me said. No one cares. People will see you as non-AOA or AOA. All the non-AOA’s get lumped together. No one has time or energy to figure out which schools do AOA.

Yeah that’s just not true. You realize Harvard does the same thing as Yale, right? For non-AOA students, they seem to be matching much better into plastics/ortho/derm/etc. than would be expected if they were lumped into the “non-AOA pile.”

 

[ItAintEasyBeingCheesy]

Harvard and UCSF have pass/fail clinicals. What you are saying is that by not showing honors, students from Harvard and UCSF are at a disadvantage compared to students who did make honors at Penn (for all intents and purposes Penn is on the same playing field as HMS and UCSF). I would be shocked if PD's did not know HMS dosent have Honors or Yale dosent have AOA.

Eh...You have a point. I’d argue Harvard and UCSF don’t need honors as their name is big enough to get you wherever you could dream of. I don’t think Yale is quite at that level though, esp considering the fact their clinically slightly weaker.

Bringing us back to reality. In the end, none of this really matters. Both Yale and Penn are so high up that they pretty much open up every door conceivable. While I think Penn is a bit better, I have to admit it’s unlikely to yield any practical benefit.

 

[juliannewman]

I’ve spoken to a few attendings/PDs, all of whom see the Yale system as a joke. Think about it: no grades, no tests and now no step 1? Tell any normal person this and they’ll tell you it’s crazy. Even the residents at my workplace who aren’t too keen on testing think this is setting the bar too low.

This isn’t to say that Yale isn’t well-reputed. Yale grads are still held in high esteem, but only because they admit exceptional students . But this doesn’t change the fact that the Yale system limits you. Upon matriculating the only distinguishing factor you’ll ever have is that you went to Yale. There’s no way to stand out. No way forward. Yale is a good place if you’re looking to settle, but then again, you can settle at Penn. If you’re looking to stand out, Penn is your only option.

Did you get into this joke of a school? Or just talking Out of your ass

OP go wherever you want, you’ll be fine either way, this person is biased though

 

[ItAintEasyBeingCheesy]

Did you get into this joke of a school? Or just talking Out of your ass

OP go wherever you want, you’ll be fine either way, this person is biased though

Didn’t mean to offend. I’m not saying Yale is a joke. It’s a wonderful school with lots of prestige and amazing students. It’s a dream school by any measure and one that I’d love to go to if I had the opportunity.

I’m saying their grading system is a bit much. That’s all.

 

[iliasis]

Just reading this thread, it sounds like your heart is leaning towards Yale as you are defending the Yale System and lack of aoa. I would follow where you think you'd thrive over rank. Usnwr rank is likely to change anyways if you look at trends over past 20 years. Yale has been a staple t10 until like last year so I doubt they'd be likely to drop for good. Also doubt that an institution with 40 billion in endowment would let its med school drop too far.

 

[TheDataKing]

I'd say Yale - why be more stressed than you have to be? Both schools match incredibly well and have a TON of prestige

 

[deleted976595]

I say Yale. You seem to be leaning that way based on your comments. Plus if you care about lay prestige, at Yale you'll never have to deal with telling people that Penn State and Penn are different schools.

 

[Pluto98]

I say Yale. You seem to be leaning that way based on your comments. Plus if you care about lay prestige, at Yale you'll never have to deal with telling people that Penn State and Penn are different schools.

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[TheDataKing]

Can I say "I go to school in New Haven"? LOL

sure, if you want to be that person

 

[meronebib]

sure, if you want to be that person

“I go to a school in Cambr—Boston. Boston.”

 

[1234567890pumpkins]

Can I say "I go to school in New Haven"? LOL

Quinnipiac??

 

[deleted972488]

You think that being able to say “I go to school in New Haven” is worth $100,000 plus interest, especially when your other option is Penn???

What you perceive to be a “chiller” curriculum may not actually impact your experience as a medical student as much as you think. Plus, to be frank, New Haven is not that great.

 

[1234567890pumpkins]

You think that being able to say “I go to school in New Haven” is worth $100,000 plus interest, especially when your other option is Penn???

What you perceive to be a “chiller” curriculum may not actually impact your experience as a medical student as much as you think. Plus, to be frank, New Haven is not that great.

tbh, it's really to each's own. If it means something to you and you can pay that price without much of burden in the future, it may be something worth doing. At the end of the day, you really can't put a price on prestige, experience and happiness. If someone's ultimate goal is to make the most money and to pay the least, then I will say by all means, go to the cheapest school and work the hardest to be in the highest-paying specialty and forget about fit, happiness and everything else.

 

[deleted972488]

you really can't put a price on prestige, experience and happiness

These are both prestigious institutions though, and the cheaper one arguably has a better reputation in medicine and a better clinical training environment.

If OP would truly be miserable at Penn, then sure, but is that the case?

 

[1234567890pumpkins]

These are both prestigious institutions though, and the cheaper one arguably has a better reputation in medicine and a better clinical training environment.

If OP would truly be miserable at Penn, then sure, but is that the case?

I am not arguing that Penn is less prestigious. I actuallly agree with you 100% that in medicine Penn is stronger in many ways, NIH funding, and possibly clinical training. But I also don't think it's that easy to ask a question whether 100k+ interest is too high of a price to pay for something so intangible like prestige, experience and ultimately happiness. I think both schools will offer OP very similar prospects, but the amount of work the OP has to do and the amount of anxiety the OP has to endure to get to those prospects may be quite different. And I don't think it's possible to gauge that against 100k+ interest. All I am saying is that we are sometimes very tunnel-visioned and focus on the immediate difference that is quantifiable and ignore or discount things that are not readily quantifiable.

 

[deleted972488]

I am not arguing that Penn is less prestigious. I actuallly agree with you 100% that in medicine Penn is stronger in many ways, NIH funding, and possibly clinical training. But I also don't think it's that easy to ask a question whether 100k+ interest is too high of a price to pay for something so intangible like prestige, experience and ultimately happiness. I think both schools will offer OP very similar prospects, but the amount of work the OP has to do and the amount of anxiety the OP has to endure to get to those prospects may be quite different. And I don't think it's possible to gauge that against 100k+ interest. All I am saying is that we are sometimes very tunnel-visioned and focus on the immediate difference that is quantifiable and ignore or discount things that are not readily quantifiable.

I hear you. I guess what I’m saying is the experience at those two institutions might not be as different as OP assumes and therefore would not be worth the price difference.

 

[Pluto98]

I hear you. I guess what I’m saying is the experience at those two institutions might not be as different as OP assumes and therefore would not be worth the price difference.

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[Lawpy]

I'll never understand SDN's obsession with prestige, but even when using USNWR rankings, Penn is higher ranked than Yale. It's also probably more prestigious in PD report but i don't remember. I don't know why lay prestige is an issue here but then, I always fail to understand SDN preallo.

 

[deleted972488]

I’m not trying to be facetious but even if both experiences were similar (which they aren’t they are complete opposites), is saying the name “Yale” worth 100k?

Absolutely not.

 

[1234567890pumpkins]

Absolutely not.

I feel that the OP may disagree but again, it's really a personal preference. Like some would love to shell out big bucks to get a Aston Martin when the same car goes for a lot cheaper with a Jag tag... This world is just so diverse.

 

[Pluto98]

I'll never understand SDN's obsession with prestige, but even when using USNWR rankings, Penn is higher ranked than Yale. It's also probably more prestigious in PD report but i don't remember. I don't know why lay prestige is an issue here but then, I always fail to understand SDN preallo.

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