VA CLC psychologist burned out & debating becoming a "Zoom Doc" psychologist

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

JeyRo

Full Member
10+ Year Member
Joined
Mar 26, 2012
Messages
919
Reaction score
145
I'm getting very burned out on CLC work. Anyone ever made a transition from a fully face-to-face position at the VA to one of those 100% remote positions? Advice, perspectives, anything y'all would like to share?

Members don't see this ad.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Me. Not geriatric focused or even clinical service facing, though. I will DM you.
 
I'm getting very burned out on CLC work. Anyone ever made a transition from a fully face-to-face position at the VA to one of those 100% remote positions? Advice, perspectives, anything y'all would like to share?
Do you want to stay in VA, leave VA, or are you open to both options?

If you want to stay, there are lots of fully remote jobs being listed, especially since it's a new fiscal year: USAJobs w/remote filter

I moved from VA inpatient to a 100% tele-therapy role a while back. The transition from a nearly fully flexible schedule to being on an outpatient grid was hard but I was ready to transition back to doing traditional outpatient therapy. I'm lucky that my virtual team is very functional and supportive and have had only minor admin issues with my new facility.

As with every VA job (and facility), there are pros and cons and each job will be impacted differently by VA system/political demands.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Members don't see this ad :)
.
 
Last edited:
I have a few different thoughts on this and not much time right now. I transitioned into part-time virtual care in my VA position during the pandemic. I will DM you. I will add this thought... what we do in geropsych is often different from traditional time limited CBT with stable functional adults. Are you ready to move the volume needed for outpatient therapy?
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users
I hate doing exclusive video psychotherapy sessions. It’s like driving a car with no horsepower. Occasional sessions with an existing client is fine, but for the work that I do, it just doesn’t suffice. Your mileage may vary. 😁
For me, it makes the annoying clients more difficult to connect with and thus more boring. I seriously came close to falling asleep and very tempted to check emails or browse internet during a few sessions. It also takes a little bit of the fun out of the more enjoyable/engaging clients. To contrast, I think of my time at the VA as one of the best clinical experiences of my career.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 4 users
I hate doing exclusive video psychotherapy sessions. It’s like driving a car with no horsepower. Occasional sessions with an existing client is fine, but for the work that I do, it just doesn’t suffice. Your mileage may vary. 😁
For me, it makes the annoying clients more difficult to connect with and thus more boring. I seriously came close to falling asleep and very tempted to check emails or browse internet during a few sessions. It also takes a little bit of the fun out of the more enjoyable/engaging clients. To contrast, I think of my time at the VA as one of the best clinical experiences of my career.


Glad to hear that being the case. That said, I can empathize with the OP. Now that I have a little more time to respond, I can say that I understand the sentiment. Being an ancillary service on a medical unit or team, it is tremendously hard to be effective if you don't get buy in from those providing care. For the last couple of years, it has been a combination of services in these areas being short staffed and burned out. Taking on some VVC patients was a breath of fresh air and kept me going during the pandemic. Just having a patient log onto VVC and manage their own appt was a amazing. I am used to caregivers forgetting appts or simply not being interested in doing the work for caring for the veteran, staff blowing off recommendations, etc. This is even more difficult when the veteran/patient is engaged but we cannot get buy in from those tasked with caring for them. A lot of the new national mandates seem to lead to more meetings and staff that are burned out and only interested in getting their job done rather than providing quality patient care.

That said, I am not sure that I would want to shift to VA outpatient care if I were looking to make a change right now. Going from not being on a grid to being on the grid would feel quite constraining. Having an MSA run my schedule without my input has been frustrating as well. There is also the issue that even outside the VA, leaving for outpatient work would likely mean leaving behind geropsychology for a more general adult patient mix that pays better. So, a lot to think about.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 6 users
If VA wants to start working of increasing the numbers of providers and retaining people they've already got, IMO, they should see about allowing for part-time positions with benefits. Full-time VA can be...a lot, but I have to think there are a decent number of psychologists out there who'd be happy to do some part-time VA work if it were easier to get that setup and there were some incentives in place (i.e., benefits). Unless part-time VA employees already qualify for benefits, that is.
 
  • Like
  • Love
Reactions: 5 users
If VA wants to start working of increasing the numbers of providers and retaining people they've already got, IMO, they should see about allowing for part-time positions with benefits. Full-time VA can be...a lot, but I have to think there are a decent number of psychologists out there who'd be happy to do some part-time VA work if it were easier to get that setup and there were some incentives in place (i.e., benefits). Unless part-time VA employees already qualify for benefits, that is.

I don't know if it changed dramatically after I left, or if it was location dependent, but if anything, I was underworked. I was hitting well over my RVU targets, but still had a ton of free time in my work week most of the time. I was always active in supervision, which definitely helped with overshooting those targets. I know it was different for leadership positions, though.

My biggest grips was always just not being treated like a professional and beholden to micromanagement and not being able to change things which would improve things for both patients and providers, because someone who had never seen a patient in real life at regional office decided that his way was teh best way to do it. I also like being paid a lot more.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users
If VA wants to start working of increasing the numbers of providers and retaining people they've already got, IMO, they should see about allowing for part-time positions with benefits. Full-time VA can be...a lot, but I have to think there are a decent number of psychologists out there who'd be happy to do some part-time VA work if it were easier to get that setup and there were some incentives in place (i.e., benefits). Unless part-time VA employees already qualify for benefits, that is.

I don't know if it changed dramatically after I left, or if it was location dependent, but if anything, I was underworked. I was hitting well over my RVU targets, but still had a ton of free time in my work week most of the time. I was always active in supervision, which definitely helped with overshooting those targets. I know it was different for leadership positions, though.

My biggest grips was always just not being treated like a professional and beholden to micromanagement and not being able to change things which would improve things for both patients and providers, because someone who had never seen a patient in real life at regional office decided that his way was teh best way to do it. I also like being paid a lot more.

Part-time would really depend on the way it is instituted. RVUs are the least of the issues (though the focus on them gets annoying at times). Since someone got a bug in their ear about this high reliability organization stuff, the VA has been instituting that the only way it knows how, more mandated TMS trainings and now 8am "huddles" (which are pointless mandatory meetings with no actual agenda or attendance for adults). If part-time would get me out of that mess, I would gladly take it. However, it would not solve the problem of the folks I am receiving referrals from being burned out and not wanting to do the referrals. Some areas and people navigated the pandemic better than others. I feel like many folks simply checked out, particularly PCPs and nurses.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
I hate doing exclusive video psychotherapy sessions. It’s like driving a car with no horsepower. Occasional sessions with an existing client is fine, but for the work that I do, it just doesn’t suffice. Your mileage may vary. 😁
For me, it makes the annoying clients more difficult to connect with and thus more boring. I seriously came close to falling asleep and very tempted to check emails or browse internet during a few sessions. It also takes a little bit of the fun out of the more enjoyable/engaging clients. To contrast, I think of my time at the VA as one of the best clinical experiences of my career.

I do this. I know..."shame on me," but for the reasons you pointed out.

I don't know if it changed dramatically after I left, or if it was location dependent, but if anything, I was underworked. I was hitting well over my RVU targets, but still had a ton of free time in my work week most of the time. I was always active in supervision, which definitely helped with overshooting those targets. I know it was different for leadership positions, though.

My biggest grips was always just not being treated like a professional and beholden to micromanagement and not being able to change things which would improve things for both patients and providers, because someone who had never seen a patient in real life at regional office decided that his way was teh best way to do it. I also like being paid a lot more.

Yeah, at this VA I am at now, they don't even bother to call psychologists "Dr." and lump us with social workers essentially. I really do feel like psychologists are undervalued by other non-psychologists here at my VA. That's my initial impression thus far, and to be honest, the first impressions getting on board here have been a S**t show. Really has me contemplating jumping ship real soon.

To answer the OP's question - I actually work remotely 3 days a week, so I wonder if you could aim for something similar, or a 100% remote job with the VA. Do you want to say within the VA system?
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
I do this. I know..."shame on me," but for the reasons you pointed out.



Yeah, at this VA I am at now, they don't even bother to call psychologists "Dr." and lump us with social workers essentially. I really do feel like psychologists are undervalued by other non-psychologists here at my VA. That's my initial impression thus far, and to be honest, the first impressions getting on board here have been a S**t show. Really has me contemplating jumping ship real soon.

To answer the OP's question - I actually work remotely 3 days a week, so I wonder if you could aim for something similar, or a 100% remote job with the VA. Do you want to say within the VA system?

Your HR dept was by far the worst I ever experienced in the VA system.
 
Your HR dept was by far the worst I ever experienced in the VA system.

Oh yeah...that is an understatement. I've been escalating things since September because they screwed me out of over $500 and I want that money back. I was not at fault, and no one responds to me, and when they ghost me, I escalate it to superior managers. Now I'm talking with the VISN deputy director and they are still pushing back on me.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Members don't see this ad :)
If VA wants to start working of increasing the numbers of providers and retaining people they've already got, IMO, they should see about allowing for part-time positions with benefits. Full-time VA can be...a lot, but I have to think there are a decent number of psychologists out there who'd be happy to do some part-time VA work if it were easier to get that setup and there were some incentives in place (i.e., benefits). Unless part-time VA employees already qualify for benefits, that is.
How would part time assessment work play out? For those who primarily do testing, there are always reports to write, and a lot of testing psychologists typically write reports on the evenings and weekends and even on their days off. That would be very hard to incorporate into a part-time VA schedule. Do you just stop writing the report on Thursday and pick it back up next Tuesday? Wouldn’t that cause severe delays in work completion? I’ve always wondered that.
 
I do this. I know..."shame on me," but for the reasons you pointed out.



Yeah, at this VA I am at now, they don't even bother to call psychologists "Dr." and lump us with social workers essentially. I really do feel like psychologists are undervalued by other non-psychologists here at my VA. That's my initial impression thus far, and to be honest, the first impressions getting on board here have been a S**t show. Really has me contemplating jumping ship real soon.

To answer the OP's question - I actually work remotely 3 days a week, so I wonder if you could aim for something similar, or a 100% remote job with the VA. Do you want to say within the VA system?

That's awful - one positive thing I will say about the VA is I have always been called "Dr" and my title/position has always been respected at the facilities where I've worked.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users
That's awful - one positive thing I will say about the VA is I have always been called "Dr" and my title/position has always been respected at the facilities where I've worked.

One thing I heard recently in a committee meeting I serve on was, "women have to earn their doctorates every day." It really does suck when someone works so hard to achieve something, and then have it minimized by others. My physician counterparts are called "doctor" all day long.
 
How would part time assessment work play out? For those who primarily do testing, there are always reports to write, and a lot of testing psychologists typically write reports on the evenings and weekends and even on their days off. That would be very hard to incorporate into a part-time VA schedule. Do you just stop writing the report on Thursday and pick it back up next Tuesday? Wouldn’t that cause severe delays in work completion? I’ve always wondered that.
20 labor hours per week should be enough for several "name-that-tune" psychiatric evals or basic neuropsych evals so long if you aren't a slow typist, giving 15 instruments each assessment, or otherwise hemming and hawing/psychobabbling about slightly rotating blocks or anything else that wouldn't realistically effect a treatment plan.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
One thing I heard recently in a committee meeting I serve on was, "women have to earn their doctorates every day." It really does suck when someone works so hard to achieve something, and then have it minimized by others. My physician counterparts are called "doctor" all day long.

That is so frustrating. I actually was once advised by a colleague, who was also a younger woman like myself, to not give patients the option to call me by my first name but to always go by "doctor" for that very reason.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users
If VA wants to start working of increasing the numbers of providers and retaining people they've already got, IMO, they should see about allowing for part-time positions with benefits. Full-time VA can be...a lot, but I have to think there are a decent number of psychologists out there who'd be happy to do some part-time VA work if it were easier to get that setup and there were some incentives in place (i.e., benefits). Unless part-time VA employees already qualify for benefits, that is.
Literally talked to two buds this week at different VA/VISN who said the same thing and plan to bounce if they can't eventually land that. There are options for benefits/etc based on % effort, but it still requires VISN approval, which has been the hassle for some. the VA 'stuff' is a lot and its made worse by the persistent inability to fill positions at many VA. Heck, I heard of one residential unit with 120 who is trying to hire 1 psych to do all the therapy. not even sure how that works timewise even if there were no paperwork/meetings/etc.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Yup, we've lost staff because they couldn't do part-time. GOOD staff, too.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Literally talked to two buds this week at different VA/VISN who said the same thing and plan to bounce if they can't eventually land that. There are options for benefits/etc based on % effort, but it still requires VISN approval, which has been the hassle for some. the VA 'stuff' is a lot and its made worse by the persistent inability to fill positions at many VA. Heck, I heard of one residential unit with 120 who is trying to hire 1 psych to do all the therapy. not even sure how that works timewise even if there were no paperwork/meetings/etc.
As a full-time clinician/ VA provider I can say that at least about 80% of my daily EFFORT (patience, concentration, execution of tasks, etc.) is directed toward the non-clinical bureaucratic overhead tasks that have absolutely ZERO to do with my qualifications, training, and specific competencies as a clinical psychologist. I spend much of my day 1) proactively scanning for/ detecting up front errors made routinely by other staff members (e.g., constant double-bookings or other 'mistakes' by MSA's); 2) followup tasks of 'quarterbacking' things all-the-way-through-to-frigging-completion-step-by-excruciating-gawd/damned/step through the godforsaken bureaucratic landscape including doing hand-over-hand prompting of other staff members over whom I have zero authority but 100% responsibility for; 3) running into 'brick walls' all day long with technology, having to re-logon to this system, getting halfway through entering questionnaires into MHA-WEB and having it crash on me, photocopying all of my own forms and materials, literally tracking down the guy who I heard can be a 'source' for three ring binders for me and then finally getting the commitment for him to be at his station as I walk over a quarter mile in the rain to the basement of the hospital to lug it all back to my office.

SImple case in point. Recently moved to a new area of the hospital and my supervisor correctly built my clinic grids and forwarded it to whomever to execute the 'epas' request or whatever...bottom line is they should have not even had clinic availability built during the time of our monthly staffing meetings. Well, I proactively looked at my schedule to discover that I had a patient scheduled at that time (conflicting with staff meeting). Now, in order to cancel or reschedule a patient <45 days out, we are required to submit a formal memorandum (signed by everyone up and down the chain of command) for approval for permission to do so including the reasoning. So I did that. After 2 weeks of non-response, I went to my supervisor who recommended I send a followup email. They then tell me to make some minor adjustment to the form, which I did, and sent it back. Now, when it is 'approved' I will need to 'quarterback' the cancellation of the client (doing hand-over-hand prompting of the clerk until this is completed), and then formally submit the blocking request for that hour and await 'confirmation' from them. So...because other people failed to correctly do their job in the first place (correctly implementing the grid that my supervisor correctly submitted to them), I have had to deal with a 'project' for nearly a month simply to correct their mistake. This just one example of about 50 things that are on my weekly to do list that I have to constantly do some little thing (check the schedule, compile a memo, send an email, follow up on x, y, z with staff member or supervisor m, n, or o, coordinate schedules with Tim, or Tina and John...) that has absolutely nothing to do with my primary job responsibilities and qualifications and has everything to do with the fact that, as a provider in this system, I am at the crossroads of everything, have no actual authority and infinite levels of 'responsibility' of covering for other people's mistakes, failings and contradictions within a vast overly-complicated and oftentimes self-contradictory cluster-bargle of a system.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
As a full-time clinician/ VA provider I can say that at least about 80% of my daily EFFORT (patience, concentration, execution of tasks, etc.) is directed toward the non-clinical bureaucratic overhead tasks that have absolutely ZERO to do with my qualifications, training, and specific competencies as a clinical psychologist. I spend much of my day 1) proactively scanning for/ detecting up front errors made routinely by other staff members (e.g., constant double-bookings or other 'mistakes' by MSA's); 2) followup tasks of 'quarterbacking' things all-the-way-through-to-frigging-completion-step-by-excruciating-gawd/damned/step through the godforsaken bureaucratic landscape including doing hand-over-hand prompting of other staff members over whom I have zero authority but 100% responsibility for; 3) running into 'brick walls' all day long with technology, having to re-logon to this system, getting halfway through entering questionnaires into MHA-WEB and having it crash on me, photocopying all of my own forms and materials, literally tracking down the guy who I heard can be a 'source' for three ring binders for me and then finally getting the commitment for him to be at his station as I walk over a quarter mile in the rain to the basement of the hospital to lug it all back to my office.

SImple case in point. Recently moved to a new area of the hospital and my supervisor correctly built my clinic grids and forwarded it to whomever to execute the 'epas' request or whatever...bottom line is they should have not even had clinic availability built during the time of our monthly staffing meetings. Well, I proactively looked at my schedule to discover that I had a patient scheduled at that time (conflicting with staff meeting). Now, in order to cancel or reschedule a patient <45 days out, we are required to submit a formal memorandum (signed by everyone up and down the chain of command) for approval for permission to do so including the reasoning. So I did that. After 2 weeks of non-response, I went to my supervisor who recommended I send a followup email. They then tell me to make some minor adjustment to the form, which I did, and sent it back. Now, when it is 'approved' I will need to 'quarterback' the cancellation of the client (doing hand-over-hand prompting of the clerk until this is completed), and then formally submit the blocking request for that hour and await 'confirmation' from them. So...because other people failed to correctly do their job in the first place (correctly implementing the grid that my supervisor correctly submitted to them), I have had to deal with a 'project' for nearly a month simply to correct their mistake. This just one example of about 50 things that are on my weekly to do list that I have to constantly do some little thing (check the schedule, compile a memo, send an email, follow up on x, y, z with staff member or supervisor m, n, or o, coordinate schedules with Tim, or Tina and John...) that has absolutely nothing to do with my primary job responsibilities and qualifications and has everything to do with the fact that, as a provider in this system, I am at the crossroads of everything, have no actual authority and infinite levels of 'responsibility' of covering for other people's mistakes, failings and contradictions within a vast overly-complicated and oftentimes self-contradictory cluster-bargle of a system.
I agree, the cancellation and leave request processes at VA were beyond onerous. Not sure how it compares to other large systems, but I was always amazed at how little support you could actually expect from MAS/clerks in that regard (which wasn't always the clerks' fault; often it related to puffery at the local MAS leadership level). And how it was always somehow the provider's fault if no one acted on their submitted requests.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
Psychologist position postings are EVERYWHERE in my state. I mean everywhere, with every big name university hospital system (Ohio State, UC, etc.), AMCs (Cleveland Clinic), for profit hospitals, VA, and state system jobs. It's honestly a bit shocking. The VA in Cbus for example has had open postings off and on since at least January of last year ( I know this because I got bored one day and applied and they surprisingly got back to me right away, so I know they're desperate). I never would go there, because my current primary gig essentially allows me to come and go whenever as I please. All of my colleagues who were in the VA have left for PP and are killing it. At some point the VA is going to have to realize they need to offer some form of flexibility in order to retain people, right?
 
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users
Psychologist position postings are EVERYWHERE in my state. I mean everywhere, with every big name university hospital system (Ohio State, UC, etc.), AMCs (Cleveland Clinic), for profit hospitals, VA, and state system jobs. It's honestly a bit shocking. The VA in Cbus for example has had open postings off and on since at least January of last year ( I know this because I got bored one day and applied and they surprisingly got back to me right away, so I know they're desperate). I never would go there, because my current primary gig essentially allows me to come and go whenever as I please. All of my colleagues who were in the VA have left for PP and are killing it. At some point the VA is going to have to realize they need to offer some form of flexibility in order to retain people, right?
And the really demoralizing aspect of it is...

This system is especially hard on people who are conscientious, honest, and try to have integrity. I have colleagues with serious medical conditions who get hassled about having to take time off to attend specialist appointments (where they have little flexibility in when the specialist can see them) because we don't dare cancel/reschedule patients <45 days out (that would be a sin). But, nearly every day, some one (or multiple people in a work area) call in 'sick.' People have, off the record, suggested that you should just call in sick to do what you gotta do but I'm just not there yet.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
I agree, the cancellation and leave request processes at VA were beyond onerous. Not sure how it compares to other large systems, but I was always amazed at how little support you could actually expect from MAS/clerks in that regard (which wasn't always the clerks' fault; often it related to puffery at the local MAS leadership level). And how it was always somehow the provider's fault if no one acted on their submitted requests.

The worst is when they make you feel guilty about cancelling. Like they'll message me and ask when to r/s this person for. Like, the next open appt? I'm sorry that the patient was impacted but I'm allowed to call out sick.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
The worst is when they make you feel guilty about cancelling. Like they'll message me and ask when to r/s this person for. Like, the next open appt? I'm sorry that the patient was impacted but I'm allowed to call out sick.
I was feeling good about my position until I called out sick. I am doing things to go above and beyond in the name of patient care, but it feels like the attitude is more "that's the least you could do." It has definitely been a turn off. Lesson learned. I'll just keep my laptop off and recover in peace.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
And the really demoralizing aspect of it is...

This system is especially hard on people who are conscientious, honest, and try to have integrity. I have colleagues with serious medical conditions who get hassled about having to take time off to attend specialist appointments (where they have little flexibility in when the specialist can see them) because we don't dare cancel/reschedule patients <45 days out (that would be a sin). But, nearly every day, some one (or multiple people in a work area) call in 'sick.' People have, off the record, suggested that you should just call in sick to do what you gotta do but I'm just not there yet.


Found your problem. Fix that part.

I don't really deal with this as I have no grid/ system scheduled appts (just my own schedule with the patient), so the 45 day rule is not much of an issue to me. But, in this case, I am all about being "sick" and doing what you need to do. Doctors don't always schedule more than 45 days in advance and life happens. They won't learn to change unless the headache falls on MSAs and they complain en masse.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
Found your problem. Fix that part.

I don't really deal with this as I have no grid/ system scheduled appts (just my own schedule with the patient), so the 45 day rule is not much of an issue to me. But, in this case, I am all about being "sick" and doing what you need to do. Doctors don't always schedule more than 45 days in advance and life happens. They won't learn to change unless the headache falls on MSAs and they complain en masse.

Random other thought after sipping on my coffee...I thought the 45 day thing is supposed to pertain to annual leave, not sick leave from what I recall reading in the memorandum. Are they implementing it for sick leave as well at your facility?
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Random other thought after sipping on my coffee...I thought the 45 day thing is supposed to pertain to annual leave, not sick leave from what I recall reading in the memorandum. Are they implementing it for sick leave as well at your facility?

You are correct, SL can be approved without 45 days' notice. You are just asked to make reasonable efforts to get the patients r/s, ideally the same week or sooner (but that isn't always possible). My supervisor has told me they're always going to approve SL requests.
 
  • Hmm
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Random other thought after sipping on my coffee...I thought the 45 day thing is supposed to pertain to annual leave, not sick leave from what I recall reading in the memorandum. Are they implementing it for sick leave as well at your facility?
Yes, indeed they are.
 
But, nearly every day, some one (or multiple people in a work area) call in 'sick.' People have, off the record, suggested that you should just call in sick to do what you gotta do but I'm just not there yet.
Wish I didn't have to but I'm always looking for VA 'hacks' like this (such as delaying creating your encounter note to slow down the clock for when they are due/considered late) and try to use them judiciously since there is so little flexibility, combined with arbitrariness regarding which policies will be enforced and which will be overlooked/ignored.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
Wish I didn't have to but I'm always looking for VA 'hacks' like this (such as delaying creating your encounter note to slow down the clock for when they are due/considered late) and try to use them judiciously since there is so little flexibility, combined with arbitrariness regarding which policies will be enforced and which will be overlooked/ignored.
I'd say those are adaptive strategies to survive (like even the sick leave thing is)...that's what makes it a 'moral hazard.' I'm not meaning to say that it's horribly unethical or something to fake call in 'sick' in order to go to a last minute scheduled Dr.'s appointment, just that it's a slippery slope and everyone's behavior (mine included) is shaped by consequences.
 
I'd say those are adaptive strategies to survive (like even the sick leave thing is)...that's what makes it a 'moral hazard.' I'm not meaning to say that it's horribly unethical or something to fake call in 'sick' in order to go to a last minute scheduled Dr.'s appointment, just that it's a slippery slope and everyone's behavior (mine included) is shaped by consequences.
Everywhere I've worked, doctor's appointments count as sick leave regardless.
 
They are also considered SL in the VA. There's even a category for it under SL in VATAS.
They are SL, but local admin requires a 45 day memo if you need to request cancelling an already scheduled appointment with a patient less than 45 days out even to attend your own medical appointment.
 
  • Wow
Reactions: 1 users
They are SL, but local admin requires a 45 day memo if you need to request cancelling an already scheduled appointment with a patient less than 45 days out even to attend your own medical appointment.

They are implementing the rule incorrectly. No moral hazard in working around improperly implemented rules, imo. Their job is to create the rules, ours is to create the unintended consequence of said rule.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
They are SL, but local admin requires a 45 day memo if you need to request cancelling an already scheduled appointment with a patient less than 45 days out even to attend your own medical appointment.

Yeah, they are not implementing that correctly and frankly it could even be a union issue. You are entitled to take time off for needed medical care.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 4 users
Yeah, they are not implementing that correctly and frankly it could even be a union issue. You are entitled to take time off for needed medical care.
Thanks for the feedback. Is the 45 day memo thing a national policy then?
 
Thanks for the feedback. Is the 45 day memo thing a national policy then?

My understanding is that it is national and being pushed by central office. This and, more generally, the increase focus on metrics seem to be a Biden administration goal. They seem to want to make it a campaign issue that they increased access for veterans.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
My understanding is that it is national and being pushed by central office. This and, more generally, the increase focus on metrics seem to be a Biden administration goal. They seem to want to make it a campaign issue that they increased access for veterans.
It's funny because my experience--at least at this hospital and in this region--'access' to mental health treatment and psychotherapy isn't even an issue. The wait for therapy is much, much shorter at the VA than in the community at large.

The #1 issue is the problem of what I would call 'pseudo-engagement' in the psychotherapy process. But that will never be openly recognized.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 4 users
It's funny because my experience--at least at this hospital and in this region--'access' to mental health treatment and psychotherapy isn't even an issue. The wait for therapy is much, much shorter at the VA than in the community at large.

The #1 issue is the problem of what I would call 'pseudo-engagement' in the psychotherapy process. But that will never be openly recognized.

The wait for almost everything in the VA is shorter than the community at large, in general.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
Can't you "buy" retirement time using your SL in the VA? Or is that only for grandfathered in employees from yesteryear?>

Good Luck Charlie Idk GIF
 
As a full-time clinician/ VA provider I can say that at least about 80% of my daily EFFORT (patience, concentration, execution of tasks, etc.) is directed toward the non-clinical bureaucratic overhead tasks that have absolutely ZERO to do with my qualifications, training, and specific competencies as a clinical psychologist. I spend much of my day 1) proactively scanning for/ detecting up front errors made routinely by other staff members (e.g., constant double-bookings or other 'mistakes' by MSA's); 2) followup tasks of 'quarterbacking' things all-the-way-through-to-frigging-completion-step-by-excruciating-gawd/damned/step through the godforsaken bureaucratic landscape including doing hand-over-hand prompting of other staff members over whom I have zero authority but 100% responsibility for; 3) running into 'brick walls' all day long with technology, having to re-logon to this system, getting halfway through entering questionnaires into MHA-WEB and having it crash on me, photocopying all of my own forms and materials, literally tracking down the guy who I heard can be a 'source' for three ring binders for me and then finally getting the commitment for him to be at his station as I walk over a quarter mile in the rain to the basement of the hospital to lug it all back to my office.

SImple case in point. Recently moved to a new area of the hospital and my supervisor correctly built my clinic grids and forwarded it to whomever to execute the 'epas' request or whatever...bottom line is they should have not even had clinic availability built during the time of our monthly staffing meetings. Well, I proactively looked at my schedule to discover that I had a patient scheduled at that time (conflicting with staff meeting). Now, in order to cancel or reschedule a patient <45 days out, we are required to submit a formal memorandum (signed by everyone up and down the chain of command) for approval for permission to do so including the reasoning. So I did that. After 2 weeks of non-response, I went to my supervisor who recommended I send a followup email. They then tell me to make some minor adjustment to the form, which I did, and sent it back. Now, when it is 'approved' I will need to 'quarterback' the cancellation of the client (doing hand-over-hand prompting of the clerk until this is completed), and then formally submit the blocking request for that hour and await 'confirmation' from them. So...because other people failed to correctly do their job in the first place (correctly implementing the grid that my supervisor correctly submitted to them), I have had to deal with a 'project' for nearly a month simply to correct their mistake. This just one example of about 50 things that are on my weekly to do list that I have to constantly do some little thing (check the schedule, compile a memo, send an email, follow up on x, y, z with staff member or supervisor m, n, or o, coordinate schedules with Tim, or Tina and John...) that has absolutely nothing to do with my primary job responsibilities and qualifications and has everything to do with the fact that, as a provider in this system, I am at the crossroads of everything, have no actual authority and infinite levels of 'responsibility' of covering for other people's mistakes, failings and contradictions within a vast overly-complicated and oftentimes self-contradictory cluster-bargle of a system.

It's like you work with me in my office lol! This is basically my day. It's why I've decided to scale back the amount of folks I take on. I do not chase veterans down. When MSAs message be about random admin crap about my schedule, I let them know that's on them, not on me that I do not have time to deal with their administrative stuff. Heck, the executive director of the mental health care line was copied on an email someone emailed me regarding a veteran recently admitted to the ER who decided to no show my appointments twice in a row - I flat out told them I will not chase them down, and it appears they are exactly where they need to be in order to be stabilized. They have my number and know my office, I am happy to re-establish when they are. I will admit I've grown increasingly bitter, jaded, and complacent in my work with the VA system. I am literally looking for a way out that checks most of my "boxes" to justify to myself and my spouse to leave the VA for good. I don't really see anything pleasant in the long-run with the VA. Not to mention the money my VA screwed me out of about 2 months ago that I am still pissed about.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Top