Counseling PhD Programs?

[Epak333]

Hi everyone! Just a general question about what the benefits are of counseling PhD programs? If anyone could offer any input that would be great! I have only really looked into clinical programs so I am unfamiliar with these. My goal is to do correctional work, but I also don't want to pigeonhole myself and would like to explore other fields in psych so I am open to suggestions for programs!

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[Sanman]

Benefits? You receive a PhD, are eligible to be licensed to practice psychology, and it is usually cheaper than a PsyD.

Beyond that we need more context about your specific situation.

 

[R. Matey]

The differences between counseling and clinical psychology Ph.D. programs are largely academic and do not in any way affect your practice opportunities. You may encounter some weird, unsubstantiated biases from some people that harken back to a bygone era when counseling psychologists were more concentrated in university counseling centers, but these are usually few and far between. For your specific interests, I can think of at least two people from my own counseling program that now are employed by the federal bureau of prisons. They concentrated their practica experiences in corrections, landed good internships, and are as happily plodding along in corrections today.

 

[summerbabe]

I did a Counseling PhD and know multiple people who work in corrections settings from both mine and other programs. And people who work in VA, AMC, counseling center, academia, DoD, consulting and private practice.

At one point, my program also had 2 profs who had forensic related research interests (one left to go to another school for family reasons but almost certainly would have gotten tenure if they saw the process through).

One thing you should look at is the type of experiences you will accrue be at any program such as external pracs that would be seen as relevant when you apply for a BoP internship and the amount and type of assessment experience that you will receive while in school, as well as your dissertation topic. Or any other paths that you may want to pursue as many peoples interests change in grad school.

For example, a very child heavy clinical psych program where everybody does a lot of child pracs and child assessment would probably be a bad fit for an adult corrections internship.

And lastly, I want to echo what Sanman said about getting a degree at the lowest cost. Many institutions are struggling to retain or hire psychologists right now, including corrections facilities or state hospitals since many are located in undesirable locations and some places pay below the median salary for that region.

Even if you don't end up in the perfect program, jobs will be out there in the future, regardless of how perfectly qualified you are (e.g., having a pulse and a license might be enough to get in the door). Good luck!

 

[Epak333]

Benefits? You receive a PhD, are eligible to be licensed to practice psychology, and it is usually cheaper than a PsyD.

Beyond that we need more context about your specific situation.

I more-so meant why would some people choose a counseling program over a clinical program. Obviously you get your doctorate, but what differentiates counseling from clinical? Can you ultimately end up with the same career regardless of whether you completed a counseling or clinical program?

 

[Epak333]

The differences between counseling and clinical psychology Ph.D. programs are largely academic and do not in any way affect your practice opportunities. You may encounter some weird, unsubstantiated biases from some people that harken back to a bygone era when counseling psychologists were more concentrated in university counseling centers, but these are usually few and far between. For your specific interests, I can think of at least two people from my own counseling program that now are employed by the federal bureau of prisons. They concentrated their practica experiences in corrections, landed good internships, and are as happily plodding along in corrections today.

That's great to hear! Thank you for sharing. I wasn't sure if the actually program itself was set up differently or not, but I guess at the end of the day you become a licensed psychologist either way.

 

[Epak333]

I did a Counseling PhD and know multiple people who work in corrections settings from both mine and other programs. And people who work in VA, AMC, counseling center, academia, DoD, consulting and private practice.

At one point, my program also had 2 profs who had forensic related research interests (one left to go to another school for family reasons but almost certainly would have gotten tenure if they saw the process through).

One thing you should look at is the type of experiences you will accrue be at any program such as external pracs that would be seen as relevant when you apply for a BoP internship and the amount and type of assessment experience that you will receive while in school, as well as your dissertation topic. Or any other paths that you may want to pursue as many peoples interests change in grad school.

For example, a very child heavy clinical psych program where everybody does a lot of child pracs and child assessment would probably be a bad fit for an adult corrections internship.

And lastly, I want to echo what Sanman said about getting a degree at the lowest cost. Many institutions are struggling to retain or hire psychologists right now, including corrections facilities or state hospitals since many are located in undesirable locations and some places pay below the median salary for that region.

Even if you don't end up in the perfect program, jobs will be out there in the future, regardless of how perfectly qualified you are (e.g., having a pulse and a license might be enough to get in the door). Good luck!

Thank you for your thorough response! Yes I have been researching all my potential programs I might be applying to, just to make sure they offer practicum opportunities aligned with my interests (although my interests could very well change, so I'm considering programs that have a wide range of opportunities). I've also heard counseling programs are a little easier to get into, so I think I'll add some to my list! Right now I only have funded clinical PhDs and PsyDs. And true about there being jobs out there, especially BOP which is my goal, that definitely makes me feel better haha

 

[WisNeuro]

Depending on the program, may be slightly easier to get into for some. I'd say there is a little more variability in quality. You can do the same things as you can with a clinical PhD as long as you get the requisite experiences. Same advice applies, check out the stats (EPPP pass rate, APA accredited internship rate, licensure rate, funding, etc). I'd also make sure you have the external practica available in that program to get you where you want to go, but that advice applies to any program.

 

[R. Matey]

That's great to hear! Thank you for sharing. I wasn't sure if the actually program itself was set up differently or not, but I guess at the end of the day you become a licensed psychologist either way.

There are some minor differences. For instance, you'll take classes in multicultural counseling, supervision, and vocational psychology since these are areas of emphasis for counseling psychology. A good program will round you out well enough for independent practice.

 

[R. Matey]

Depending on the program, may be slightly easier to get into for some. I'd say there is a little more variability in quality.

This really isn't supported at all in the data: https://www.apa.org/education-career/grad/survey-data/2016-report.pdf

 

[Mama Bear]

The differences: Counseling programs tend to have a career theory/vocational counseling component not present in Clinical programs. There may be trends regarding research focus. For example, psychopathology in Clinical programs and multicultural factors in Counseling programs.

As others have said, identify if a program meets your goals. Identify your research interests and find faculty doing that. Identify settings/professional activities of interest and then a program that would prepare you for that.

 

[WisNeuro]

This really isn't supported at all in the data: https://www.apa.org/education-career/grad/survey-data/2016-report.pdf

Key data point there is that clinical psychology was aggregated across PsyD and PhD. Though professional schools were about an eighth of the programs, given their admission class sizes, they would have an outsized impact on the data for clinical psychology. Break that out, and those bars likely look a lot different.

 

[R. Matey]

Key data point there is that clinical psychology was aggregated across PsyD and PhD. Though professional schools were about an eighth of the programs, given their admission class sizes, they would have an outsized impact on the data for clinical psychology. Break that out, and those bars likely look a lot different.

My guess is that if you controlled for institutional type, the rates still would be the same. Probably even more so if counseling and clinical were in the same psychology department as they are at some R1s (Minnesota, Florida, for instance). I'll give you this though: I think it's probably true that there are fewer good quality counseling programs compared with clinical because the specialty is a lot smaller.

 

[PsyDr]

1) Counseling PSYCHOLOGY PhDs
or
Counseling PhDs ????

2) Counseling PhDs are a part time way for a masters level counselor to be called "Dr.". These programs do NOT make you equivalent to a psychologist.

3) At this point, Counseling psychology is basically the same as a clinical program. Theoretically, counseling psychology is more concerned with the worried well while clinical psychology is concerned with diagnosed psychopathology. It's the difference between being upset with your spouse, and becoming psychotic.

 

[Epak333]

Depending on the program, may be slightly easier to get into for some. I'd say there is a little more variability in quality. You can do the same things as you can with a clinical PhD as long as you get the requisite experiences. Same advice applies, check out the stats (EPPP pass rate, APA accredited internship rate, licensure rate, funding, etc). I'd also make sure you have the external practica available in that program to get you where you want to go, but that advice applies to any program.

Yes I'll definitely keep all that in mind, thank you!

 

[Epak333]

1) Counseling PSYCHOLOGY PhDs
or
Counseling PhDs ????

2) Counseling PhDs are a part time way for a masters level counselor to be called "Dr.". These programs do NOT make you equivalent to a psychologist.

3) At this point, Counseling psychology is basically the same as a clinical program. Theoretically, counseling psychology is more concerned with the worried well while clinical psychology is concerned with diagnosed psychopathology. It's the difference between being upset with your spouse, and becoming psychotic.

Counseling psychology** I should have specified haha. And thank you for the information! So it seems that I can ultimately have the same career with either program.

 

[Epak333]

The differences: Counseling programs tend to have a career theory/vocational counseling component not present in Clinical programs. There may be trends regarding research focus. For example, psychopathology in Clinical programs and multicultural factors in Counseling programs.

As others have said, identify if a program meets your goals. Identify your research interests and find faculty doing that. Identify settings/professional activities of interest and then a program that would prepare you for that.

Yes totally agree it's about finding the program that best fits me, whether it be counseling or clinical. Thank you!

 

[Sanman]

I more-so meant why would some people choose a counseling program over a clinical program. Obviously you get your doctorate, but what differentiates counseling from clinical? Can you ultimately end up with the same career regardless of whether you completed a counseling or clinical program?

This will really depend more on the individual program and available opportunities than the label slapped on it. Find one with good forensic placements, if that is what you want to do.

 

[R. Matey]

Counseling PhDs are a part time way for a masters level counselor to be called "Dr.". These programs do NOT make you equivalent to a psychologist.

Important point here--Ph.Ds in Counselor Education is a whole other ball of wax that does not prepare people to be psychologists. It's essentially a teaching degree for CACREP-accredited master's level counseling programs.

 

[rerope]

It really depends on the program. I go to a balanced research/practice counseling PhD program (that is weirdly staffed by mostly Clinical PhDs) and went due to it being fully funded plus stipend and the research lab I was interested (intervention and juvenile justice/policy focused). Practica wise I've mostly been at hospital settings and secured a lot of internship interviews at great sites (yale, harvard, john hopkins etc). Outside of 1 or 2 interviewers being surprised I had great assessment training/confused at whether a counseling student "could handle severe pathology" (wut 🙃) I don't feel like I've had a different trajectory than most clinical folks. Again, I think it depends on what you want from a program and the program itself.

 

[texanpsychdoc]

The differences between counseling and clinical psychology Ph.D. programs are largely academic and do not in any way affect your practice opportunities. You may encounter some weird, unsubstantiated biases from some people that harken back to a bygone era when counseling psychologists were more concentrated in university counseling centers, but these are usually few and far between. For your specific interests, I can think of at least two people from my own counseling program that now are employed by the federal bureau of prisons. They concentrated their practica experiences in corrections, landed good internships, and are as happily plodding along in corrections today.

Exactly...now we just focus our bias towards those with Psy.D.s, so you are good to go.

 

[Epak333]

It really depends on the program. I go to a balanced research/practice counseling PhD program (that is weirdly staffed by mostly Clinical PhDs) and went due to it being fully funded plus stipend and the research lab I was interested (intervention and juvenile justice/policy focused). Practica wise I've mostly been at hospital settings and secured a lot of internship interviews at great sites (yale, harvard, john hopkins etc). Outside of 1 or 2 interviewers being surprised I had great assessment training/confused at whether a counseling student "could handle severe pathology" (wut 🙃) I don't feel like I've had a different trajectory than most clinical folks. Again, I think it depends on what you want from a program and the program itself.

That's awesome to hear! Thank you for sharing your experience. Did you only apply to counseling PhD programs or did you apply to clinical as well?

 

[Epak333]

Exactly...now we just focus our bias towards those with Psy.D.s, so you are good to go.

Yes I've heard a lot of trash talk about PsyDs 😂 I'm planning on applying to a few, but only those that are fully/partially funded (Baylor, Rutgers, Georgia Southern, etc).

 

[WisNeuro]

To be fair, we only trash talk the trash PsyDs. I don't recall anyone here trashing the Baylor/Rutger tier PsyD programs.

 

[Epak333]

To be fair, we only trash talk the trash PsyDs. I don't recall anyone here trashing the Baylor/Rutger tier PsyD programs.

Yes that's what I meant, there are a few (very few) quality PsyD programs. Other than the ones I mentioned, are there any other PsyDs that you think are worthwhile to apply to?

 

[WisNeuro]

Yes that's what I meant, there are a few (very few) quality PsyD programs. Other than the ones I mentioned, are there any other PsyDs that you think are worthwhile to apply to?

I think it would depend on your interests and tentative career path. With the quality PsyDs, just like PhDs, you're applying for fit.

 

[Epak333]

I think it would depend on your interests and tentative career path. With the quality PsyDs, just like PhDs, you're applying for fit.

True, I'm sure generally anything that doesn't offer any type of funding would be something to avoid though. From a few of the PsyD program faculty members and students that I talked to, you have the opportunity to do many different things since you aren't locked in with one mentor the whole time (which I could see myself potentially enjoying more). Not sure if that is the norm for most PsyDs though, I know the best ones are also very research focused just like PhDs are. The only PsyDs so far that I have considered other than the ones I mentioned before are Marshall University (offers partial funding I believe) and Florida Tech (not funded, so still debating that one). I think IUP and Indiana State are also funded too?

 

[WisNeuro]

True, I'm sure generally anything that doesn't offer any type of funding would be something to avoid though. From a few of the PsyD program faculty members and students that I talked to, you have the opportunity to do many different things since you aren't locked in with one mentor the whole time (which I could see myself potentially enjoying more). Not sure if that is the norm for most PsyDs though, I know the best ones are also very research focused just like PhDs are. The only PsyDs so far that I have considered other than the ones I mentioned before are Marshall University (offers partial funding I believe) and Florida Tech (not funded, so still debating that one). I think IUP and Indiana State are also funded too?

The mentor model is the norm. It's common to have a set mentor in your main area, who also advises you on your general progression, but also some supervisors in other areas along the way. I suspect the ones that say that "you're not locked into one mentor" are simply spinning the notion that they do not have enough faculty to mentor the number of students they have, so you just get some supervision here and there from whoever is available. I've seen different models at different levels of training, and I'd highly recommend having a main mentor through the grad school portion for training.

 

[R. Matey]

True, I'm sure generally anything that doesn't offer any type of funding would be something to avoid though. From a few of the PsyD program faculty members and students that I talked to, you have the opportunity to do many different things since you aren't locked in with one mentor the whole time (which I could see myself potentially enjoying more). Not sure if that is the norm for most PsyDs though, I know the best ones are also very research focused just like PhDs are. The only PsyDs so far that I have considered other than the ones I mentioned before are Marshall University (offers partial funding I believe) and Florida Tech (not funded, so still debating that one). I think IUP and Indiana State are also funded too?

Agree with Wis. This is a clever bit of marketing that I would encourage you to ignore. Most Ph.D. programs have a mentor, but also offer the opportunity to explore your own secondary interests. It's not uncommon for grad students to collaborate with others aside from their primary mentor and I've never heard of any program related rule that explicitly forbids collaborating or engaging in supervision related to your own interests. I would actually say that it is encouraged.

To be fair, we only trash talk the trash PsyDs. I don't recall anyone here trashing the Baylor/Rutger tier PsyD programs.

Also, trash Ph.Ds. from places like Fielding and such. My trash talking is not restricted to trash Psy.Ds. I'm an equal opportunity trash talker.

 

[WisNeuro]

Agree with Wis. This is a clever bit of marketing that I would encourage you to ignore. Most Ph.D. programs have a mentor, but also offer the opportunity to explore your own secondary interests. It's not uncommon for grad students to collaborate with others aside from their primary mentor and I've never heard of any program related rule that explicitly forbids collaborating or engaging in supervision related to your own interests. I would actually say that it is encouraged.



Also, trash Ph.Ds. from places like Fielding and such. My trash talking is not restricted to trash Psy.Ds. I'm an equal opportunity trash talker.

I don't even consider Fielding a doctoral program. It's a step below the diploma mills.

 

[Epak333]

Agree with Wis. This is a clever bit of marketing that I would encourage you to ignore. Most Ph.D. programs have a mentor, but also offer the opportunity to explore your own secondary interests. It's not uncommon for grad students to collaborate with others aside from their primary mentor and I've never heard of any program related rule that explicitly forbids collaborating or engaging in supervision related to your own interests. I would actually say that it is encouraged.



Also, trash Ph.Ds. from places like Fielding and such. My trash talking is not restricted to trash Psy.Ds. I'm an equal opportunity trash talker.

Ahhh okay makes sense. I always thought that once you had a mentor you were kinda stuck with that mentor and couldn't really explore other opportunities. I guess for practicum placements, too, you can explore different options. That's good to hear! I know I'm very interested in forensic/correctional work but I would love the opportunity to explore a bit of neuro, child psych, sports psych, or other fields if possible.

 

[WisNeuro]

Ahhh okay makes sense. I always thought that once you had a mentor you were kinda stuck with that mentor and couldn't really explore other opportunities. I guess for practicum placements, too, you can explore different options. That's good to hear! I know I'm very interested in forensic/correctional work but I would love the opportunity to explore a bit of neuro, child psych, sports psych, or other fields if possible.

Your interests are very broad. So, you'll need to think about a couple things. One, you'll need to narrow it down, as you really can't get adequate exposure to every specialty. Two, you'll need to really research fit. For example, things like sports psych and forensic are not common experiences in most doctoral programs, you'll have to search out options that allow for those types of exposure. On the flip side, most programs will require at least some passing exposure to things like neuro and child psych.

 

[summerbabe]

My program was mentor model and I know somebody who went to a funded PhD that had looser mentorship models and would not recommend the latter.

In a 1:1 mentorship model, the mentor has a lot more to lose if you are unsuccessful and drop out since they likely only have a single spot to offer each year and may not want to take on 2 new students the following year due to lack of time.

Since they are likely relying on you to contribute to their ongoing research projects (especially if they have not secured tenure), they will be more invested in your overall success.

The downside is that fit will be much more relevant for admissions so PsyDs with loose mentorship models are easier to get into with generally good credentials since they aren’t considering faculty specific factors.

 

[Epak333]

Your interests are very broad. So, you'll need to think about a couple things. One, you'll need to narrow it down, as you really can't get adequate exposure to every specialty. Two, you'll need to really research fit. For example, things like sports psych and forensic are not common experiences in most doctoral programs, you'll have to search out options that allow for those types of exposure. On the flip side, most programs will require at least some passing exposure to things like neuro and child psych.

Yes I have narrowed my interests within forensic/correctional, and have found a number of faculty in different programs whose research interests me (along with programs that seem like a good fit). I guess then I'm just wondering what type of different fields in a doctoral program you can get exposure to regardless of what your research interests are?

 

[WisNeuro]

Yes I have narrowed my interests within forensic/correctional, and have found a number of faculty in different programs whose research interests me (along with programs that seem like a good fit). I guess then I'm just wondering what type of different fields in a doctoral program you can get exposure to regardless of what your research interests are?

Depends on what your interests are, and what is available in your program. I'm a neuropsychologist, but I also studied trauma/PTSD in my grad school days and beyond. Also got a decent amount of treatment experience in PTSD, eating disorders, and some good DBT experience. I had some child treatment and assessment experience, but stopped at the bare minimum as I knew that I was not going to pursue any type of child related work in a career.

 

[Epak333]

My program was mentor model and I know somebody who went to a funded PhD that had looser mentorship models and would not recommend the latter.

In a 1:1 mentorship model, the mentor has a lot more to lose if you are unsuccessful and drop out since they likely only have a single spot to offer each year and may not want to take on 2 new students the following year due to lack of time.

Since they are likely relying on you to contribute to their ongoing research projects (especially if they have not secured tenure), they will be more invested in your overall success.

The downside is that fit will be much more relevant for admissions so PsyDs with loose mentorship models are easier to get into with generally good credentials since they aren’t considering faculty specific factors.

You're right I didn't think of that, your mentor will be much more involved and you will work very closely with them, which would not be the case in a looser mentorship model program. For the most part, all the programs I've looked into have a strong mentorship model. If I were to find multiple faculty members whose work I am interested in, am I allowed highlight multiple in my personal statement? Or do they generally prefer that you pick one faculty member who you want to work with? Also, would it be beneficial to reach out to these faculty members ahead of time?

 

[Epak333]

Depends on what your interests are, and what is available in your program. I'm a neuropsychologist, but I also studied trauma/PTSD in my grad school days and beyond. Also got a decent amount of treatment experience in PTSD, eating disorders, and some good DBT experience. I had some child treatment and assessment experience, but stopped at the bare minimum as I knew that I was not going to pursue any type of child related work in a career.

Ahh okay I see. I would love to work with eating disorders and kids some too! It's good to hear that there are opportunities to explore different things, depending on what the program has to offer of course. I always thought in doctoral programs you were "locked in" to only doing work/research that your mentor does.

 

[WisNeuro]

Ahh okay I see. I would love to work with eating disorders and kids some too! It's good to hear that there are opportunities to explore different things, depending on what the program has to offer of course. I always thought in doctoral programs you were "locked in" to only doing work/research that your mentor does.

Not at all, it's even not that uncommon for a student to change interests 180 at some point and have a new mentor (availability permitting) within a program.

 

[MAClinician]

SIU Carbondale clinical psych has faculty with forensic interests but I don’t know if they have practicum placements still or if they are accepting students for next application cycle

 

[Epak333]

Not at all, it's even not that uncommon for a student to change interests 180 at some point and have a new mentor (availability permitting) within a program.

That actually makes me feel a lot better lol! Obviously right now I very much want to work in a prison, but I could always get to grad school and realize I hate it or it's just not of interest to me anymore. Just trying to plan ahead as much as possible

 

[Mama Bear]

I interviewed at a couple small-cohort, funded programs that used a cohort model instead of a mentor model. They’re out there. However, they still expected a fit with the program and faculty research interests.

 

[summerbabe]

If I were to find multiple faculty members whose work I am interested in, am I allowed highlight multiple in my personal statement? Or do they generally prefer that you pick one faculty member who you want to work with? Also, would it be beneficial to reach out to these faculty members ahead of time?

If you were asking somebody to prom (or being asked), would you name drop somebody else, even if you were also genuinely interested in them?

Under a true mentorship model program, you are committing 100% to that mentor and them 100% to you.

Every program is different but especially at very competitive programs, highlighting multiple people might paint you as an application who isn’t as certain about why they are doing grad school and thus a poor fit.

The two exceptions might be a) if both faculty research the exact same or similar constructs; b) your research experiences are really well aligned with both faculty and you can articulate a clear reason and pathway moving forward for work with both profs.

In terms of general interests, there may be opportunities to do side research projects with others once you’re admitted.

 

[Epak333]

If you were asking somebody to prom (or being asked), would you name drop somebody else, even if you were also genuinely interested in them?

Under a true mentorship model program, you are committing 100% to that mentor and them 100% to you.

Every program is different but especially at very competitive programs, highlighting multiple people might paint you as an application who isn’t as certain about why they are doing grad school and thus a poor fit.

The two exceptions might be a) if both faculty research the exact same or similar constructs; b) your research experiences are really well aligned with both faculty and you can articulate a clear reason and pathway moving forward for work with both profs.

In terms of general interests, there may be opportunities to do side research projects with others once you’re admitted.

Gotcha, I've highlighted like 2-3 from each program that I would consider/like to work with, with one being my top choice. A lot of them do similar research but I'll keep this in mind going forward. I'll have to really narrow it down to who I could see myself most aligned with.

 

[mind_over_matter277]

Hi everyone! Just a general question about what the benefits are of counseling PhD programs? If anyone could offer any input that would be great! I have only really looked into clinical programs so I am unfamiliar with these. My goal is to do correctional work, but I also don't want to pigeonhole myself and would like to explore other fields in psych so I am open to suggestions for programs!

I believe Counseling Psychology PhD programs are comparable to Clinical Psychology PhD/PsyD programs. Graduates from both tend to end up in similar clinical settings (e.g., VAs, AMCs, College Counseling Centers, Private Practices). Students from counseling psych PhD programs are able to secure competitive internships and/or postdoc programs as well.

I believe the only area where it might diverge is academia. If someone wants to go into clinical research and academia, a clinical psych PhD program would be ideal. Counseling psychologists go into academia but often secure jobs in different departments. At least, that’s my understanding?

Also, the training and theoretical foundations are somewhat different. From what I understand, counseling psychology focuses on normative human development and in turn, the training is aimed at improving normal behavior. In contrast, clinical psychology originates from abnormal behavior and the goal is to reduce impairment in functioning.

In summary, counseling psychology focuses on improving normal behavior while clinical psychology focuses on reducing abnormal behavior. The goal of both approaches is to alleviate human suffering.

Previous supervisors who graduated from counseling psych programs were often more warm and compassionate than those who came from clinical psychology programs in my opinion. This is obviously not a hard fact but just an observation across all my years of supervision and training.

 

[Dazen]

If/when you get to the interview stage, I’d definitely ask about cross-lab collaboration to see if it’s common and supported in the department, or if labs tend to be more silo’d. You could also look up some current students on Google scholar/Research Gate to see if they’ve published with multiple faculty within the department, although this will only give you limited information given 1. how long the pub process can take and 2. many students get few publications in grad school. Similarly, asking current students in the lab to which you’re applying about whether they focus more on established grant-funded projects or self-proposed, individualized work will help determine how flexible the PI might be about letting you pursue loosely related interests. Labs with substantial grant funding can lead to a lot of pubs, but you tend to be more locked into the lab’s current work.

 

[rerope]

That's awesome to hear! Thank you for sharing your experience. Did you only apply to counseling PhD programs or did you apply to clinical as well?

I applied to both clinical and counseling programs and got accepted to one of each. All my choices had some focus on marco level approaches to disparities and were fully funded (this was non-negotiable as I have no support and a chronic illness).

 

[foreverbull]

Counseling and clinical are no different in practice or licensure. Both are trained to diagnose and treat mental illness, do assessments, etc.

This person breaks it down, but even he emphasizes more differences than I have seen in my career as a licensed psychologist from a counseling Ph.D. program surrounded by clinical colleagues:
Counseling Psychology vs. Clinical Psychology – Dr. Joseph H. Hammer

The most meaningful difference is just history/foundation. Counseling programs are fewer in the U.S. but have comparable competitiveness. As @WisNeuro mentioned, clinical programs include PsyD for profit programs in their stats, which means a wider range of acceptance rates anywhere from like 2-40%, whereas counseling programs have a narrower range of acceptance percentages, generally. That said, both have training programs overseen by APA and both are competitive.

Most folks would benefit from applying to both types of programs because the career options are generally the same: academia, private practice, community mental health, counseling centers, hospitals, etc. It just depends on your research interests in individual programs (counseling programs emphasize diversity and social advocacy as part of their identity, so this is reflected in the research choices).

In my area, clinical psychologists are all over and I’m a rare counseling psychologist, but we do the exact same things and are treated no differently on average. That said, in some medical/hospital settings, you may experience some bias against counseling psychology due to ignorance of the subfield, so you may have to make sure your experiences line up with what they want and be prepared to explain what counseling psychology is (they might rely on very outdated info based on counseling psychology’s history of focusing on vocational and/or lifespan adjustment/issues, which is NOT accurate anymore—we treat mental illness, same as clinical, just with attention to vocation and lifespan issues as well as part of our training).

Hope that clarifies any confusion. We get this question a lot in here, and misinformation abounds on the internet about what counseling psychology is today.

 

[Epak333]

I believe Counseling Psychology PhD programs are comparable to Clinical Psychology PhD/PsyD programs. Graduates from both tend to end up in similar clinical settings (e.g., VAs, AMCs, College Counseling Centers, Private Practices). Students from counseling psych PhD programs are able to secure competitive internships and/or postdoc programs as well.

I believe the only area where it might diverge is academia. If someone wants to go into clinical research and academia, a clinical psych PhD program would be ideal. Counseling psychologists go into academia but often secure jobs in different departments. At least, that’s my understanding?

Also, the training and theoretical foundations are somewhat different. From what I understand, counseling psychology focuses on normative human development and in turn, the training is aimed at improving normal behavior. In contrast, clinical psychology originates from abnormal behavior and the goal is to reduce impairment in functioning.

In summary, counseling psychology focuses on improving normal behavior while clinical psychology focuses on reducing abnormal behavior. The goal of both approaches is to alleviate human suffering.

Previous supervisors who graduated from counseling psych programs were often more warm and compassionate than those who came from clinical psychology programs in my opinion. This is obviously not a hard fact but just an observation across all my years of supervision and training.

Makes sense, thanks! Luckily I do not want to go into academia (at all) so it sounds like I have more options.

 

[Epak333]

I applied to both clinical and counseling programs and got accepted to one of each. All my choices had some focus on marco level approaches to disparities and were fully funded (this was non-negotiable as I have no support and a chronic illness).

That's great! I know it's hard enough to get into one program let alone two. Happy it worked out for you

 

[Epak333]

Counseling and clinical are no different in practice or licensure. Both are trained to diagnose and treat mental illness, do assessments, etc.

This person breaks it down, but even he emphasizes more differences than I have seen in my career as a licensed psychologist from a counseling Ph.D. program surrounded by clinical colleagues:
Counseling Psychology vs. Clinical Psychology – Dr. Joseph H. Hammer

The most meaningful difference is just history/foundation. Counseling programs are fewer in the U.S. but have comparable competitiveness. As @WisNeuro mentioned, clinical programs include PsyD for profit programs in their stats, which means a wider range of acceptance rates anywhere from like 2-40%, whereas counseling programs have a narrower range of acceptance percentages, generally. That said, both have training programs overseen by APA and both are competitive.

Most folks would benefit from applying to both types of programs because the career options are generally the same: academia, private practice, community mental health, counseling centers, hospitals, etc. It just depends on your research interests in individual programs (counseling programs emphasize diversity and social advocacy as part of their identity, so this is reflected in the research choices).

In my area, clinical psychologists are all over and I’m a rare counseling psychologist, but we do the exact same things and are treated no differently on average. That said, in some medical/hospital settings, you may experience some bias against counseling psychology due to ignorance of the subfield, so you may have to make sure your experiences line up with what they want and be prepared to explain what counseling psychology is (they might rely on very outdated info based on counseling psychology’s history of focusing on vocational and/or lifespan adjustment/issues, which is NOT accurate anymore—we treat mental illness, same as clinical, just with attention to vocation and lifespan issues as well as part of our training).

Hope that clarifies any confusion. We get this question a lot in here, and misinformation abounds on the internet about what counseling psychology is today.

Thank you for the info and sharing your personal experience! And yes, I'm sure there is a lot of misinformation which is why I kind of wanted to hear from different people since I, myself, am ignorant about counseling psych. I'm glad to hear it's an option that I should look into, that definitely gives me a wider range of programs.