Your nose is brown

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

g squared 23

made it out alive
10+ Year Member
Joined
Mar 1, 2010
Messages
270
Reaction score
77
So as a student entering clinic, we are now being graded individually by the clinicians with whom we rotate. I have started to notice a few people act a bit "different" around these clinicians, and they always seemed very outwardly amused by any little joke that the doctor happens to make. I think you all know what I mean. They also ask tons of questions, seemingly only for the sake of being noticed.

So for the clinical students out there (and even residents), how often do you notice brown nosery (or "overeagerness" to be less harsh) and do you have any stories about anything that was especially memorable?

Also, do you find yourself laughing at jokes that aren't funny or clever or acting differently than you normally would out of fear that the attending will create a bad opinion of you?

Members don't see this ad.
 
My recommendation is to simply be yourself, and not worry about your classmates antics. It's simply natural for some to attempt to start "positioning" to be noticed, etc. For some it may work, for most it will probably simply backfire and make them look foolish.

Although most clinicians like their ego stroked, they are also in tune with what's going on, and have been through this game every year, it's new to you, but not to them.

You'll drive yourself crazy if you worry about the way some of your classmates act, now and in the future, especially when residency time rolls around. Act the way you feel appropriate and comfortable, and that's the only right answer.
 
My advisor at Barry told me simply: "be on time... be interested... and read ahead." That's really all you need to do to have success on clinical rotations.

At the end of the day, it's a job. Nothing more, nothing less. Rule #1 is punctuality; yeah, that usually goes without saying but it's also an instant dealbreaker for people who can't seem to figure it out. Another unwritten - but highly important IMO - rule is to "dress the part." This could be as simple as having a clean, pressed, buttoned white coat over your scrubs and shaving in the morning... or as time consuming as having to iron shirts, slacks, etc if the program has students were business dress. Either way, it's another simple thing that is commonly taken for granted yet can get you "crossed off the list" or marked down quickly if you fail to do it. Yeah, you work long hours. Yeah, you were up late reading... but medicine's a professional service, and you have to meet the standards. No patient in the clinic, ER, hospital, etc wants to see a guy with messed up hair, bad breath, no shave, and a brownish yellow wrinkled white coat telling them "hi, I'll be taking care of you today." Even as a student, and especially as a resident, you're a reflection and representation of your hospital's pod surg department, so you have to remember that. Every program has that one student who always looked like he had slept in his car or that one who could make people drop dead with her breath on morning rounds. Don't be those people :eek:

Generally, you want to be mature in most clinical situations, but have some personality at the same time and be yourself - don't supress it (or you risk ending up "fitting in" and matching where you truly do not gel with the residents/attendings and may be miserable for 3yrs). As PADPM said, you don't want to change your personality, so just treat it like you would any serious job.

If you rotate high level programs, you have to realize how much the attendings and residents know. You will generally learn by watching a lot, listening much more than talking, and eagerly helping out when asked (offer to help where appropriate... casting, bandaging, post op notes, etc). Stand in the room and listen to attendings talk to clinic pts, grab a front seat at rad rounds, offer to tag along with the intern as they go to see an ER consult, etc... be interested (or at least fake it). DO NOT "disappear" or zone out... yeah, we've all been students and gotten bored sometimes, but don't disapear to the library while the director is in clinic, pass on surgery cases since you will be 3rd assist, walk around sending text messages instead of paying attention during hospital rounds, etc.

Ask questions where appropriate, but don't ask stuff you can easily look up yourself and never come anywhere near "pimping" up the chain by asking residents/attendings questions in front of patients or their senior clinicians. I'm not saying you should be "seen and not heard," but you have to pick your spots. During times that need focus (difficult ER consult, pre-op H&P when the patient is stressed, putting in the fixation in the OR, etc), you have to realize that you are welcome to observe and learn but the attending/resident needs to focus on the task at hand. The best time to ask questions about patients or surgeries you've seen is usually when you have a 1-on-1 situation with the residents outside of direct patient care.

As a student, you (should) read a lot and are eager to apply what you read, but just tread a bit carefully. Every program/attending has their own procedure/treatment/etc preferences (which they naturally think is the best way to do things), and they really do not care what you read about or how program X that you visited last month does it. Most of all, I'd strongly avoid talking to patients about any surgery, major treatment decision, etc. They are not your patients, you aren't the attending, and you aren't the residents who work with the attending every day for months and years. You're a rotater doing a short stint at the hospital, and you definitely don't want to contradict something the attending or residents will tell the patient later, so "that's a good question, but let's ask Dr. X" is your best answer for most patients - esp regarding any question pertaining to surgery/treatments. It sounds like you are meant to be nothing but a wallflower, but you WILL have your times to show what you know (rad rounds, pimping in OR or on rounds, etc). Directors, chief residents, etc can quickly acertain which students are high quality. If you're smart, they have seen your paper application. If your paper app is avg, then show up early, offer to help frequently, and show you're a very hard worker. Either way, less is more in many situations. Again, your time will come. Basically, it's better to have them wonder why you don't talk than wonder why you do.

...The over-the-top student sucking up, asking questions you know the answer to in order to (attempt to) show off or impress the attending, subtle self promotion, etc is pretty transparent...
-"Is that intra-articular calc fracture going to need surgery? A plate reduction maybe?" (no ___, Sherlock!)
-"Graftjacket is acellular human cadaver tissue, isn't it?" (a good student reads, but doesn't have to blatently show off that he reads)
-"Would the other surgical options be a cheilectomy or implant if you didn't want to fuse this joint?" (thanks, Mr. 4th year student, for stating to residents and attendings what every 3rd year student should know)
...That type of rhetorical question stuff gets old very fast, and while I often give them the benefit of the doubt by assuming they don't know it's annoying, I sometimes do give the students a blank look of disgust or flat out tell them "quit asking questions you know the answer to"... or I just follow up with a very hard question to humble them a bit.

One of my favorite attendings who I met on my first clerkship greeted me with a roll of the eyes and "I think that's pretty obvious" after I had asked "is that purulence tracking up the extensor tendon sheath" at an inpatient's bedside. When students do that stuff (and again, I learned the hard way for a bit), it's fairly easy to see they are trying to showboat. It's basically like the d-bags who do charity work or donations but then brag about it; there's no need, and it will make you look very stuck up and insincere in the long run. There's nothing wrong with being a bit of a gunner (showing up early, offering to stay late, being polite, bringing snacks for the clinic one day if you appreciate the teaching you're getting on the rotation, etc). That is part of the game, but you are light years better also just staying fairly quiet, being confident in your abilities and comfortable waiting for your appropriate windows to show your solid smarts, demonstrating strong interest in the patients/cases, and displaying basic good work ethic. Don't worry about the students who are counting on their "charm" and rhetorical/canned "questions" to get them a good match... most residency directors, key attendings, and even residents have seen that act a couple times before ;)
 
Last edited:
Members don't see this ad :)
I though this post was related to this topic and pretty good also; it kinda got lost in a long thread but has high quality tips:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=10006772#post10006772

...definitely worth a read for students on clinical rotations or who will be there soon. It really ends up being the hard working and astute students who are ranked high by many programs while other students scratch their heads wondering why they visited 20 programs and still scrambled. Also, for $10 or so, Tarascon's "How to be a truly excellent junior medical student" is a good, quick read. A fair amount doesn't apply specifically to pod students, but the principles and general advice is the same (advice on doing bedside procedures, advice on how to learn on rounds and look good without being a suck-up, keeping pt presentations to senior clinicians short and sweet, etc).

...Again, in the end, it's a job. You have to be ready to adapt to your surroundings and read people as well as you read textbooks. You have to bring in some knowledge, but communication and work ethic are really the keys. Another good read for students:
http://www.studentdoctor.net/2007/10/the-successful-match/
 
My advisor at Barry told me simply: "be on time... be interested... and read ahead." That's really all you need to do to have success on clinical rotations.

At the end of the day, it's a job. Nothing more, nothing less. Rule #1 is punctuality; yeah, that usually goes without saying but it's also an instant dealbreaker for people who can't seem to figure it out. Another unwritten - but highly important IMO - rule is to "dress the part." This could be as simple as having a clean, pressed, buttoned white coat over your scrubs and shaving in the morning... or as time consuming as having to iron shirts, slacks, etc if the program has students were business dress. Either way, it's another simple thing that is commonly taken for granted yet can get you "crossed off the list" or marked down quickly if you fail to do it. Yeah, you work long hours. Yeah, you were up late reading... but medicine's a professional service, and you have to meet the standards. No patient in the clinic, ER, hospital, etc wants to see a guy with messed up hair, bad breath, no shave, and a brownish yellow wrinkled white coat telling them "hi, I'll be taking care of you today." Even as a student, and especially as a reaident, you're a reflection and representation of your hospital's pod surg department, so you have to remember that. Every program has that one student who always looked like he had slept in his car or that one who could make people drop dead with her breath on morning rounds. Don't be those people :eek:

Generally, you want to be mature in most clinical situations, but have some personality at the same time and be yourself - don't supress it (or you risk ending up "fitting in" and matching where you truly do not gel with the residents/attendings and may be miserable for 3yrs). As PADPM said, you don't want to change your personality, so just treat it like you would any serious job.

If you rotate high level programs, you have to realize how much the attendings and residents know. You will generally learn by watching a lot, listening much more than talking, and eagerly helping out when asked (offer to help where appropriate... casting, bandaging, post op notes, etc). Stand in the room and listen to attendings talk to clinic pts, grab a front seat at rad rounds, offer to tag along with the intern as they go to see an ER consult, etc... be interested (or at least fake it). DO NOT "disappear" or zone out... yeah, we've all been students and gottn bored sometimes, but don't disapear to the library while the director is in clinic, pass on surgery cases since you will be 3rd assist, walk around sending text messages instead of paying attention during hospital rounds, etc.

Ask questions where appropriate, but don't ask stuff you can easily look up yourself and never come anywhere near "pimping" up the chain by asking residents/attendings questions in front of patients or their senior clinicians. I'm not saying you should be "seen and not heard," but you have to pick your spots. During times that need focus (difficult ER consult, pre-op H&P when the patient is stressed, putting in the fixation in the OR, etc), you have to realize that you are welcome to observe and learn but the attending/resident needs to focus on the task at hand. The best time to ask questions about patients or surgeries you've seen is usually when you have a 1-on-1 situation with the residents outside of direct patient care.

As a student, you (should) read a lot and are eager to apply what you read, but just tread a bit carefully. Every program/attending has their own procedure/treatment/etc preferences (which they naturally think is the best way to do things), and they really do not care what you read about or how program X that you visited last month does it. Most of all, I'd strongly avoid talking to patients about any surgery, major treatment decision, etc. They are not your patients, you aren't the attending, and you aren't the residents who work with the attending every day for months and years. You're a rotator doing s short stint at the hospital, and you definitely don't want to contradict something the attending or residents will tell the patient later, so "that's a good question, but let's ask Dr. X" is your best answer for most patients - esp regarding any question pertaining to surgery/treatments. It sounds like you are meant to be nothing but a wallflower, but you will have your times to show what you know (rad rounds, pimping in OR or on rounds, etc). Directors, chief residents, etc can quickly acertain which students are high quality. If you're smart, they have seen your paper application. If your paper app is avg, then show up early, offer to help frequently, and show you're a very hard worker. Either way, less is more in many situations. Again, your time will come. Basically, it's better to have them wonder why you don't talk than wonder why you do.

...The over-the-top student sucking up, asking questions you know the answer to in order to (attempt to) show off or impress the attending, subtle self promotion, etc is pretty transparent...
-"Is that intra-articular calc fracture going to need surgery? A plate reduction maybe?" (no ___, Sherlock!)
-"Graftjacket is acellular human cadaver tissue, isn't it?" (a good student reads, but doesn't have to blatently show off that he reads)
-"Would the other surgical options be a cheilectomy or implant if you didn't want to fuse this joint?" (thanks, Mr. 4th year student, for stating to residents and attendings what every 3rd year student should know)
...That type of rhetorical question stuff gets old very fast, and while I often give them the benefit of the doubt by assuming they don't know it's annoying, I sometimes do give the students a blank look of disgust or flat out tell them "quit asking questions you know the answer to"... or I just follow up with a very hard question to humble them a bit.

One of my favorite attendings who I met on my first clerkship greeted me with a roll of the eyes and "I think that's pretty obvious" after I had asked "is that purulence tracking up the extensor tendon sheath" at an inpatient's bedside. When students do that stuff (and again, I learned the hard way for a bit), it's fairly easy to see they are trying to showboat. It's basically like the d-bags who do charity work or donations but then brag about it; there's no need, and it will make you look very stuck up and insincere in the long run. There's nothing wrong with being a bit of a gunner (showing up early, offering to stay late, being polite, bringing snacks for the clinic one day if you appreciate the teaching you're getting on the rotation, etc). That is part of the game, but you are light years better also just staying fairly quiet, being confident in your abilities and comfortable waiting for your appropriate windows to show your solid smarts, demonstrating strong interest in the patients/cases, and displaying basic good work ethic. Don't worry about the students who are counting on their "charm" and rhetorical/canned "questions" to get them a good match... most residency directors, key attendings, and even residents have seen that act a couple times before ;)

This is probably one of the best posts I've read since I've discovered this forum.:thumbup:
 
I love this type of post.

As an attending at a residency and someone who talks to students a good bit, it always amazes me that the "brown nosers" don't know that we can see right through it.

We know when someone is putting on a show for our benefit and for those of us that don't have inflated egos and realize that we are not being flattered by this, it makes me personally rather sick to my stomach.

Show me what you got by treating patients well, knowing your stuff and be confident, but not arrogant, with your abilities. That will go a lot farther in my eyes.
 
... Most of all, I'd strongly avoid talking to patients about any surgery, major treatment decision, etc...

If I had a dime for every 3rd year student who grabbed an injection kit, xray form, started talking reconstruction sx, bone biopsies, NCS's for patients with no insurance and subsequently had to be rep'd in front of the entire clinic, I'd be debt free.
 
If I had a dime for every 3rd year student who grabbed an injection kit, xray form, started talking reconstruction sx, bone biopsies, NCS's for patients with no insurance and subsequently had to be rep'd in front of the entire clinic, I'd be debt free.

I hope your not saying that in a school clinic setting, a patient shouldn't have treatment they need due to insurance reasons. In private practice, I do provide treatment pro bono, or work out a payment plan with a patient, and the school clinics should be doing the same BEFORE they're seen by a doctor, student or otherwise.

I also hope your not saying that a student would be publicly reprimanded for trying to help someone who needed it. 3rd year students are eager to help and learn. I hope 4th year students and eventually the residents they become have this level of humility and empathy.
 
I hope your not saying that in a school clinic setting, a patient shouldn't have treatment they need due to insurance reasons. In private practice, I do provide treatment pro bono, or work out a payment plan with a patient, and the school clinics should be doing the same BEFORE they're seen by a doctor, student or otherwise.

I also hope your not saying that a student would be publicly reprimanded for trying to help someone who needed it. 3rd year students are eager to help and learn. I hope 4th year students and eventually the residents they become have this level of humility and empathy.

Hold on Patch Adams, let's not put words in my mouth..

What I'm saying is you should not, as a 3rd year student or extern, tell the patient what their treatment should be before you talk to the attending.

I present my hx, physical, DDx, and what I think the treatment options are to the attending before the patient.

Of course the patient is going to get the care they need, they will be referred to someone who takes their insurance or I'm sure the clinic will do pro bono work if the attending agrees, but that's not our call.
 
Hold on Patch Adams, let's not put words in my mouth..

What I'm saying is you should not, as a 3rd year student or extern, tell the patient what their treatment should be before you talk to the attending.

I present my hx, physical, DDx, and what I think the treatment options are to the attending before the patient.

Of course the patient is going to get the care they need, they will be referred to someone who takes their insurance or I'm sure the clinic will do pro bono work if the attending agrees, but that's not our call.

Curiously, I did not get that from your tongue in cheek initial post. My apologies.
 
Top