You won't get "rich" as an MD

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I haven't read this whole thread or anything but in my opinion you will get rich as an MD. I plan on specializing so I'll probably earn about 200K a year. I plan on practicing for 35 years. That means in my lifetime as an MD I will earn 7 million dollars. Which after taxes will be roughly 4 millions dollars. It's not Lamborghini rich, but 4 millions dollars is plenty of money, at least for the lifestyle I plan on living.
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cardiology88 said:
I haven't read this whole thread or anything but in my opinion you will get rich as an MD. I plan on specializing so I'll probably earn about 200K a year. I plan on practicing for 35 years. That means in my lifetime as an MD I will earn 7 million dollars. Which after taxes will be roughly 4 millions dollars. It's not Lamborghini rich, but 4 millions dollars is plenty of money, at least for the lifestyle I plan on living.
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:laugh:
 
GoLytely said:
Easily one of the scariest opinions I've ever read.

This idea that it's downright evil to work hard for more money needs to change. There is nothing wrong with seeking and expecting a high salary in return for high levels of education and heavy responsibility.

Obama and his army of idealistic college freshmen need to chill.
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He's in the minority. Extremes are always scary, either that earning money is bad or that taxes are bad. You need both.

Also, let's not stereotype Obama supporters.
 
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Oncoloman said:
I'm just gonna say this. If anyone here wants to be a doctor for the money you are SCUM. All wages should be capped at 100,000. That way only people who want to be their will stay. Of course though, the MD applications will decrease by at least 10 fold.
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I totally agree. We should definitely cap the wages at 100,000 ten dollar bills a year.
 
Why is wanting to make money such a bad thing?

I'm not saying it should be the sole reason for becoming a doctor, or for any other career where you are directly responsible for another person's life, but why shouldn't someone be rewarded for an in-demand skill?

And for the inevitable objections I'm about to receive, just know that by deciding on medicine, I'm losing out on the ton of money I would make as a chemical engineer (my major). A starting salary of $80,000 after 4 years of school will be missed, but medicine is so much more cool.
 
Medicine has become such an obviously prolonged hazing ritual that the amount of money one receives in compensation for it is not enough, regardless of the actual amount.
 
You guys only wanna cap it at $100,000 a year? Doctors shouldn't make more than nurses, lets be real, med-school isn't that hard and the debt really isn't that bad, plus you get to have a super prestigious job and work at a hospital with tons of cool people. Plus you get to deal with patients who are always super awesome, none of them are never annoying. When I become a doctor, I'm actually gonna do mainly pro-bono work, but I'm only gonna charge rich republicans because they make too much money cause they work too hard, and I'll use that money to help pay for all the broke people. I'll be sure to be innovative as well as I will be clearly motivated to keep advancing the field of medicine. I'll just drive a 1983 honda because it gets me from point A to B, and I'll live in a cozy loft in a poor suburb. 15 years of post-secondary education isn't worth more than $50k a year, and $100k a year is ridiculous for any doctor. :rolleyes: :sarcasm:

This thread has gotten f**ken ridiculous, and honestly you won't get rich as an MD unless you sell your soul to Lucifer. I'm contemplating joining the free-masons cause I'd probably make more money as a congressman or a senator.
 
cardiology88 said:
I haven't read this whole thread or anything but in my opinion you will get rich as an MD. I plan on specializing so I'll probably earn about 200K a year. I plan on practicing for 35 years. That means in my lifetime as an MD I will earn 7 million dollars. Which after taxes will be roughly 4 millions dollars. It's not Lamborghini rich, but 4 millions dollars is plenty of money, at least for the lifestyle I plan on living.
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By the time you retire, you will likely need $3-5 million stashed away just to fund your retirement and maintain a similar standard of living that you had before retirement.
 
EB474 said:
Why is wanting to make money such a bad thing?

I'm not saying it should be the sole reason for becoming a doctor, or for any other career where you are directly responsible for another person's life, but why shouldn't someone be rewarded for an in-demand skill?

And for the inevitable objections I'm about to receive, just know that by deciding on medicine, I'm losing out on the ton of money I would make as a chemical engineer (my major). A starting salary of $80,000 after 4 years of school will be missed, but medicine is so much more cool.
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i think alot of people who say that don't really want to admit that they want the money, just that it seem so, whats the word here, ugly to admit so.
 
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I think plenty of people are doing medicine for money,prestige,and stability.
 
TheProwler said:
What a stupid idea. UPS delivery drivers make $74,000/year, without the 12-15 year investment or $250,000 in student loan repayment. Let's pay the surgeon who saves your life 30% more than the guy who delivers your book from Amazon.
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 javascript:editA();"Averages are so misleading. The average UPS driver's pay at this time 12/07/2007 is about $72,000 cash, and benefits of about $30,000.

But drivers with enough seniority can get more overtime by "bumping" junior employees, and with 15 hours of OT can earn over $90,000. And with 20 hours OT can earn over $100,000 cash, not including benefits.

So senior drivers can earn OVER $130,000 in cash and benefits. There are ways to earn a few thousand more by working vacations and overlapping vacations with paid holidays.

Before you college grads and professional workers, who don't get there hands dirty and work in climate controlled buildings, and don't make half that amount, gasp for air, remember this: This is hard, dirty, back breaking work done at a breakneck pace for VERY long hours in often brutal weather conditions.

People see all that money BUT don't see the work it takes to make it. Many come to UPS with dreams of making that dough but nearly 45% wash out and many never make it a week. Out of 20 applicants UPS select 1 and out of those only about half make it. After 15 years, most drivers, if not all, report some chronic muscular/skeleton pain.

For those who want to work hard, and stick it out for 30 years, the rewards are there. It's because so many people out there DO NOT want to work that hard that makes the pay and benefits at UPS what they are."


...just sayin. :D
 
Hoody said:
Before you college grads and professional workers, who don't get there hands dirty and work in climate controlled buildings, and don't make half that amount, gasp for air, remember this: This is hard, dirty, back breaking work done at a breakneck pace for VERY long hours in often brutal weather conditions.
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It's still absurdly good money for that kind of work. My dad does snow plowing in the winter, and the guys he hires to shovel snow at 3am when it's 15 degrees out get about $10/hr (overtime pay in the middle of the night though).

People see all that money BUT don't see the work it takes to make it. Many come to UPS with dreams of making that dough but nearly 45% wash out and many never make it a week. Out of 20 applicants UPS select 1 and out of those only about half make it. After 15 years, most drivers, if not all, report some chronic muscular/skeleton pain.
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By age 40, most people, if not all, report some chronic muscular/skeletal pain.


It's mad cash with minimal investment up front.
 
Hoody said:

"Averages are so misleading. The average UPS driver's pay at this time 12/07/2007 is about $72,000 cash, and benefits of about $30,000.

But drivers with enough seniority can get more overtime by "bumping" junior employees, and with 15 hours of OT can earn over $90,000. And with 20 hours OT can earn over $100,000 cash, not including benefits.

So senior drivers can earn OVER $130,000 in cash and benefits. There are ways to earn a few thousand more by working vacations and overlapping vacations with paid holidays.

Before you college grads and professional workers, who don't get there hands dirty and work in climate controlled buildings, and don't make half that amount, gasp for air, remember this: This is hard, dirty, back breaking work done at a breakneck pace for VERY long hours in often brutal weather conditions.

People see all that money BUT don't see the work it takes to make it. Many come to UPS with dreams of making that dough but nearly 45% wash out and many never make it a week. Out of 20 applicants UPS select 1 and out of those only about half make it. After 15 years, most drivers, if not all, report some chronic muscular/skeleton pain.

For those who want to work hard, and stick it out for 30 years, the rewards are there. It's because so many people out there DO NOT want to work that hard that makes the pay and benefits at UPS what they are."


...just sayin. :D
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What the heck? Is this true? I can make 6-figures as a UPS driver?

No way. That's impossible. You must be crazy. Get lost, you looney toon. Troll. Loser.
 
Working for your due is a principle not a number. No one should feel like they have to apologize for trying to provide the best life possible for their families. Those who advocate voluntarily reduced physician salaries are basically saying, "I trust others to put that money to better use than myself." Do you really think that the government, politicians, CEO's, insurance actuaries, ETC will use that money for better reasons than you? Do you think that giving people money who never worked for it will improve their lives? No way... giving people money doesn't help them, at least in a wealthy place like the US. Anyone who wanted a lifestyle could have worked for it and achieved their goals. Rewarding those who didn't do the work is unproductive and dangerous for our society as a whole. Seriously, you wanna give $100 bills to crackheads so your kids won't be able to live the life you dreamt about providing them? This does not promote strength as a nation. You know, those middle class folk who pay taxes and have 401k's? They're the ones providing the money for investments that drive the economy. Taking their money and giving it to little Johnny-Bob Crackhead to spend on hookers and blow discourages people from working, rewards laziness, and removes money from the economy that would be used for investments and gives it to the black market.

I don't have delusions about future compensation in this profession. I will though fight for as much as I can unapologetically, and be satisfied regardless, because that's my due and my responsibility to my family and my country as an educated, hard-working citizen.
 
coldweatherblue said:
Working for your due is a principle not a number. No one should feel like they have to apologize for trying to provide the best life possible for their families. Those who advocate voluntarily reduced physician salaries are basically saying, "I trust others to put that money to better use than myself." Do you really think that the government, politicians, CEO's, insurance actuaries, ETC will use that money for better reasons than you? Do you think that giving people money who never worked for it will improve their lives? No way... giving people money doesn't help them, at least in a wealthy place like the US. Anyone who wanted a lifestyle could have worked for it and achieved their goals. Rewarding those who didn't do the work is unproductive and dangerous for our society as a whole. Seriously, you wanna give $100 bills to crackheads so your kids won't be able to live the life you dreamt about providing them? This does not promote strength as a nation. You know, those middle class folk who pay taxes and have 401k's? They're the ones providing the money for investments that drive the economy. Taking their money and giving it to little Johnny-Bob Crackhead to spend on hookers and blow discourages people from working, rewards laziness, and removes money from the economy that would be used for investments and gives it to the black market.

I don't have delusions about future compensation in this profession. I will though fight for as much as I can unapologetically, and be satisfied regardless, because that's my due and my responsibility to my family and my country as an educated, hard-working citizen.
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Excellent post, I agree wholeheartedly.
 
BerlinDude said:
What the heck? Is this true? I can make 6-figures as a UPS driver?

No way. That's impossible. You must be crazy. Get lost, you looney toon. Troll. Loser.
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I just googled it, copied and pasted. I would goolge it for you, but I'm too lazy.
 
BerlinDude said:
What the heck? Is this true? I can make 6-figures as a UPS driver?

No way. That's impossible. You must be crazy. Get lost, you looney toon. Troll. Loser.
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The sad reality is that 6 figures isn't the type of money that will cause a dent. I want the type of money that society respects and fears. Too bad as a doctor I'll just be the average guy driving a BMW. :mad:
 
GoLytely said:
It's a shame that they're so relevant to the topic, isn't it? I wish they weren't.

The quality of health care in this country will be downright awful if financial incentive is removed.
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I doubt that. While it will suck more to be a physician, Great Britain does pretty well for itself.
 
oaklandguy said:
The sad reality is that 6 figures isn't the type of money that will cause a dent. I want the type of money that society respects and fears. Too bad as a doctor I'll just be the average guy driving a BMW. :mad:
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Haha, I know that feeling!
 
UnlonelyRoad said:
I doubt that. While it will suck more to be a physician, Great Britain does pretty well for itself.
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Well if they give me all the other perks of practicing in britian (fewer work hours, no malpractice, very little debt) then I wouldnt mind making closer to their wages.
 
Dr Oops said:
Well if they give me all the other perks of practicing in britian (fewer work hours, no malpractice, very little debt) then I wouldnt mind making closer to their wages.
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Yep, they will. If they remove financial incentives completely, they'll have to introduce other ones.
 
UnlonelyRoad said:
Yep, they will. If they remove financial incentives completely, they'll have to introduce other ones.
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True but they wont dont do this until they realize how bad the problem has gotten i.e. medical applications drop off.

And even then it will probably be piecemeal. Look at the this new healthcare bill. They go on and on about more primary care docs and preventive medicine, but the only thing in this bill is a 10% increase in medicare payments. Is that enough of an incentive? So maybe medicare payments will cover costs now, but its still not worth it since older people usually require more time per visit because they have more problems.
 
BerlinDude said:
What the heck? Is this true? I can make 6-figures as a UPS driver?

No way. That's impossible. You must be crazy. Get lost, you looney toon. Troll. Loser.
Click to expand...


actually he is right. you can make huge money as a ups driver. they hook their drivers up. their starting salary is around $80,000. they also give stock options to employees with amazing benefits. your salary does increase as well.

fact is, you can make 6 figures as a UPS driver.
 
cardiology88 said:
I haven't read this whole thread or anything but in my opinion you will get rich as an MD. I plan on specializing so I'll probably earn about 200K a year. I plan on practicing for 35 years. That means in my lifetime as an MD I will earn 7 million dollars. Which after taxes will be roughly 4 millions dollars. It's not Lamborghini rich, but 4 millions dollars is plenty of money, at least for the lifestyle I plan on living.
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I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you have never had a real job, never had to live on your own, and generally have a poor concept of personal finance, the tax system, and economics.
 
Why cap it at 100,000?

Doctors should not receive any salary at all.

They should be forced to live in government provided tent cities where they will grow their own food when they are not on call, and walk to work.

They should also be sterilized so that they aren't distracted by family life.

And after their working lives are finished, they should be summarily executed, their organs should be harvested for transplant, and then whatever is left should be ground up and turned into a nutritious gruel that can be fed to medical students.
 
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oh my god this is it! you guys ready to drop the hammer?
 
DrArete said:
Why cap it at 100,000?

Doctors should not receive any salary at all.

They should be forced to live in government provided tent cities where they will grow their own food when they are not on call, and walk to work.

They should also be sterilized so that they aren't distracted by family life.

And after their working lives are finished, they should be summarily executed, their organs should be harvested for transplant, and then whatever is left should be ground up and turned into a nutritious gruel that can be fed to medical students.
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This reminds me of:

http://www.studentdoctor.net/pandab...rd-medical-school-the-not-too-distant-future/
 
DrArete said:
I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you have never had a real job, never had to live on your own, and generally have a poor concept of personal finance, the tax system, and economics.
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Why do people always tend to assume the worst of those who disagree with them? Maybe he's just one of the few who's satisfied with what he'll get.
 
lejeunesage said:
Why do people always tend to assume the worst of those who disagree with them? Maybe he's just one of the few who's satisfied with what he'll get.
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It's not assuming the worst - that response indicates he has no concept of taxes, paying bills, juggling finances, etc.

$200K sounds like a lot, until you realize you'll lose a significant portion of that to the government to support programs you will never benefit from and don't particularly appreciate.

With your remaing $140K, you'll pay off student debt, gaining interest at 6.8% per year, leaving you with maybe $100K per year.

You'll take that $100K per year and go to buy a house, car, clothes, send your kids to school, try and take a trip, put away some retirement money, and learn that your friends pulled that off 5 years ago, with less education, debt, stress, and liability.
 
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astrocreep96 said:
It's not assuming the worst - that response indicates he has no concept of taxes, paying bills, juggling finances, etc.

$200K sounds like a lot, until you realize you'll lose a significant portion of that to the government to support programs you will never benefit from and don't particularly appreciate.

With your remaing $140K, you'll pay off student debt, gaining interest at 6.8% per year, leaving you with maybe $100K per year.

You'll take that $100K per year and go to buy a house, car, clothes, send your kids to school, try and take a trip, put away some retirement money, and learn that your friends pulled that off 5 years ago, with less education, debt, stress, and liability.
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I've been in the work force full time for 3 years, not earning 50-55k per year. I wouldn't want to raise a family on it, but it would be possible, especially if my wife were making the same.
Now, as a physician making 200k/yr, my income will have quadrupled. I don't think I'll have much reason for complaint. If anything, since you're talking about learning to juggle finances, because I'm used to living on so much less money, 200k will seem like a fortune.
Now let's take the figure you gave me of 140k in cash per year.
That comes to about $5400 in cash every two weeks (right now I make about $1200-$1400). If you wanted to pay off your debt very quickly, you could comfortably live on half your income, $5400/month and put all the rest towards loan repayment. At that rate, my personal loans would be paid of in fewer than two years (I'll likely owe less than 80k when I graduate), and I can really start enjoying my $5400 every two weeks. Even with a $1500 house payment and a $500 car payment, that's still quite a bit of money left. That's not a bad deal: 4 years of school + 4-5yrs of residency to more than quadruple my take-home income.

Now, maybe you have origins less humble than mine and that kind of income is small change to you, but I take it most people would be fairly comfortable with $5400 in take-home pay every two weeks. That's not being rich, but that gives you the potential to save enough money to invest if you want to be rich. Nothing says that you have to solely depend on your earnings as a physician. You are free to invest your money as you see fit, to open a business, to own rental property, etc. And it's undeniable that your income as a physician will allow you to have the capital to engage in small-scale investing.

Lastly, you took a cheap shot at the government that I simply have to reply to. We all pay for government programs we don't directly benefit from, just as we all receive benefits others have to pay for. It's part of the perks of living in a civilized society. I'm sure you enjoy having Stafford loans available at a moderate, fixed rate (if not, then you're free to borrow directly from a bank without the backing of govt). There are millions in this country who pay taxes who couldn't give a damn about your Stafford loans. There are many who could afford to have their own water treatment plants, who could afford to build their own roads, to pay for their own bodyguards, but their taxes contribute to building infrastructure and to maintaining armed forces. As a society, there are many things that we decide we have to pay for and while every citizen will not perceive every benefit, there is something in it for everyone. Some will inevitably receive more than others, but that's exactly the way it needs to be: to each according to his own ability and need. By the way, the same goes on at the federal level: some states send more to the Fed. govt. than they receive in financial benefits and vice versa. It's just the way things are going to be and if you really hate government, you can always move to the small-government heaven of Somalia.
 
Why do people say Somalia is some sort of example of small government and free market capitalism? It isn't and is run by mob rule and just because government is small does not mean it is unable to protect its core values, while Somalia is a state run by terror. You are not clever or cheeky for suggesting people go check out Somalia if they are in favor of small government, whatsoever.

and for my own benefit I looked at Wikipedia and found this: Despite suffering from civil strife and instability, Somalia has also managed to sustain a free market economy which, according to the UN, outperforms those of many other countries in Africa.

If we are talking economics, their system is perfectly poised to be the best in Africa and many years of this system will reward itself over time. As far as government, its minimal presence is why there is limited infrastructure and why strife exists. They need a larger government, while we need a smaller one because we have outpaced our need for growing insanely fast.
 
rama kandra said:
Why do people say Somalia is some sort of example of small government and free market capitalism? It isn't and is run by mob rule and just because government is small does not mean it is unable to protect its core values, while Somalia is a state run by terror. You are not clever or cheeky for suggesting people go check out Somalia if they are in favor of small government, whatsoever.
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Somalia is a textbook example, albeit an extreme one, of what happens in the absence of a strong enough central government: you don't get freedom; you get warlords and pirates. The rhetoric on the right sounds like people are in favor of abolishing government altoghether; I only bring up Somalia to show what happens when government is abolished.
You've mentioned the economy of Somalia; much of it depends on the influx of cash from pirates. Somali expatriates invest in pirating -the most lucrative business venture there- and a lot of money flows to the country that way. I would not cite it as my favorite example of the success of capitalism.
I also take issue with the idea that we need a smaller government. Why, at a time when we need to manage two wars, restructure the health care system, improve the educational system, tackle global warming and our dependence of fossil fuels and ameliorate financial regulation, would we need a smaller government. We need a government that can successfully manage the plethora of problems we are facing and in 2010 that cannot be a "small" government.
 
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So would you agree that Somalia is an example where free markets are too fetal and could benefit from having a larger more structured government to help build alongside the free market?

If you agree with that, then it could also not be farfetched that once a economy has past its growth era (the USA has pretty much peaked from the rate of growth it was used to having, surpassed by developing countries of larger size) - and could benefit from having smaller government in order to spur the growth to outperform its current trajectory.

All theoretical of course but something I have been ruffling around in my head lately. I really do believe in the power of balancing rapid growth with taming of a regulator and slower growth being spurred by letting it grow itself. Sorry if this is a bit off topic though but it goes into doctoring here:

if my salary is growing rapidly I expect there should be an equal presence of a larger regulatory body to keep us from getting out of hand. Our growth in salary and economic benefit has been quite good for a long time in America until the last decade where it enjoyed slow to no growth. At this point I would love to see more private level investment and behavior of free market in healthcare to spur innovation and our economic significance. Instead I feel we are going to be tied down by further large size programs that keep the growth pinned at a certain level (mostly to pay off our national debt) for a period of time that I do not agree with.
 
rama kandra said:
So would you agree that Somalia is an example where free markets are too fetal and could benefit from having a larger more structured government to help build alongside the free market?

If you agree with that, then it could also not be farfetched that once a economy has past its growth era (the USA has pretty much peaked from the rate of growth it was used to having, surpassed by developing countries of larger size) - and could benefit from having smaller government in order to spur the growth to outperform its current trajectory.

All theoretical of course but something I have been ruffling around in my head lately. I really do believe in the power of balancing rapid growth with taming of a regulator and slower growth being spurred by letting it grow itself. Sorry if this is a bit off topic though but it goes into doctoring here:

if my salary is growing rapidly I expect there should be an equal presence of a larger regulatory body to keep us from getting out of hand. Our growth in salary and economic benefit has been quite good for a long time in America until the last decade where it enjoyed slow to no growth. At this point I would love to see more private level investment and behavior of free market in healthcare to spur innovation and our economic significance. Instead I feel we are going to be tied down by further large size programs that keep the growth pinned at a certain level (mostly to pay off our national debt) for a period of time that I do not agree with.
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At the moment, Somalia merely needs an actual government, not a band of exiles who call themselves the government. Now, when they do establish a functional government, it will be up to the Somalians to decide whether a "big" government is what they want.
As for the U.S., things are already sufficiently deregulated. My viewpoint is that markets inherently tend to excesses: excessive booms and excessive corrections. I'm all for economic growth, but if your theory is taken to its logical conclusion, then the bigger an economy gets, the less regulation it should need. And that's a conclusion I can't agree with. Being a bigger economy we stand to lose more if market crashes occur. So, if with more regulation we can prevent such crashes from occuring, say by regulating derivatives and how much leverage banks can operate with, I'm all for it.

Trying to control the costs of health care is not a choice; it's an imperative, or soon, the whole of the federal budget will be swallowed up. Those cuts will come sooner or later and something must be done. I think the current legislation doesn't go far enough to address costs, and specifically over-utilization, but it's a start. As to physician salaries, perhaps I'm naive, but I just don't feel threatened at the moment. If Medicare reimbursement rates are cut at some point, physicians will simply start treating fewer medicare patients and more patients with private health insurance to compensate for any loss of income.
 
2v8fhbr.jpg
 
It's WELL above average and all/most doctors live very comfortably so u ppl need to chill
 
Bumping this classic thread to see if we can get the newbies all fired up.
 
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