"You won't be deployed"

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Option 1: Do 2-4 years of a GMO tour. Then go into a 3 year Anesthesia residency. Owe 3 years payback if a military residency is done. All together, they got a physician for 8-10 years of active duty service

Option 2: Do your 4 year GMO tour and then egress.

pgg said:
(The waste isn't quite as bad for HPSP grads, but only because of the backdoor ADSO extension GMO tours impose upon those who return to military GME.)

I don't think we disagree that much. :)

By "backdoor ADSO extension" I mean exactly what you just wrote as "option 1" ...

Residency training generally doesn't extend the ADSO of USUHS grads, even if they do long GMO tours. It's unequivocally a bad deal for the military to send USUHS grads to GMO-land.

From the military's perspective, the fact that more and more HPSP grads are choosing your "option 2" only underscores how bad the GMO system is for the military. They only get four years of intern-level service in return for footing the bill for medical school.

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Army GME is in big trouble.
They (much like the Navy) can't get enough new accessions. This forces them to stop granting deferrals in order to keep enough interns/residents in the system to keep GME running.

I personally think that the Army wants GMO's, whether they be horribly misutilized BC folks or "glorified interns," as you put it.

In any case, they're going to get GMO's. By not granting deferrals, they've forced roughly 15% of the class into the GMO track, because most of these people have their sights set on competitive specialities (that many could have gotten if granted deferrals) and would rather do "4 and out" then settle.

I just don't see how Army GME can survive down the road. They can't defer out, and this will not only keep quality folks from joining, but it also won't produce the much needed exodus to Primary care that they hope for. If anything, the smaller applicant pool will spur less competitive students to continue to "reach" for specialties, thinking they can get them, and the cycle will repeat itself.

Rinse, lather, repeat. How does this end??
 
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So could possibly learn to fly huh? Even in the Army?

No, not really. Being up in an F/18 and having the pilot say - "hey doc, you want to take the stick?" is not the same as learning to fly. Still fun though.

If you want to learn to fly, you have to take flying lessons, just like everyone else that wants to fly a Cessna.
 
Army GME is in big trouble.
They (much like the Navy) can't get enough new accessions. This forces them to stop granting deferrals in order to keep enough interns/residents in the system to keep GME running.

I personally think that the Army wants GMO's, whether they be horribly misutilized BC folks or "glorified interns," as you put it.

I just don't see how Army GME can survive down the road. They can't defer out, and this will not only keep quality folks from joining, but it also won't produce the much needed exodus to Primary care that they hope for. If anything, the smaller applicant pool will spur less competitive students to continue to "reach" for specialties, thinking they can get them, and the cycle will repeat itself.

Rinse, lather, repeat. How does this end??

Very nice post. A pediatric colleague just gave me the 2008 retention stats. 23 eligible for ETS, 5 went to fellowship and 18 got out. Last year we lost 17 or 18. These are the people who used to stay in. Peds in the army pays pretty well compared to the civilian world. The folks we're losing are the MAJs and LTCs, the mentors.

What saves the system is the end of the war. If you take away deploying us, many will stay in. Of course, it will take years to recover. I just wonder when Army training programs are going to starts to close. Not enough Staff, not enough residents.

Ed
 
"You won't be deployed"
....hahahahhahaahaaaaa funny joke! :laugh:
 
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In 34.75 months, there will be a couple 3 year HPSP CPTs getting out (esp in peds) before they can even become "real" staff at residencies making it even thinner at residencies. But the Army doesn't care about the future. The leaders care about what spots they need to fill now to cover their six. They and your "career managers" (HAHAHAHAHAHA) at HRC don't give a rat's arse about your careers. My hatred towards my manager is on par with those that hate their recruiter, if not more.

Apparently there is some truth to what you are saying. As we saw in the other post, there are some DoD analysts who feel the military should get out of GME all together. They like it when physicians leave after their first tour because it decreases the "retirement tail" expense.
 
Very nice post. A pediatric colleague just gave me the 2008 retention stats. 23 eligible for ETS, 5 went to fellowship and 18 got out. Last year we lost 17 or 18. These are the people who used to stay in. Peds in the army pays pretty well compared to the civilian world. The folks we're losing are the MAJs and LTCs, the mentors.

What saves the system is the end of the war. If you take away deploying us, many will stay in. Of course, it will take years to recover. I just wonder when Army training programs are going to starts to close. Not enough Staff, not enough residents.

Ed

I am a USUHS grad and have been following this forum for about 6 years now, and while I don't post that often, I have become familiar with many of the regular posters. I just want to say, for those of you who may be new, that Edmadisons post are spot on. His opinions are insightful and informative, and in my experience, very accurately describe the state of affairs in military medicine. He speaks the truth and is a guy worth listening to, as are quite frankly the majority of the active duty posters on this board. The feelings posted here very closely approximate the feelings of the active duty docs in the trenches that daily practice military medicine. This fact is validated and confirmed by the separation numbers in the above post: physicians are getting out in droves; the only ones staying are those that are not competent to work in the civilian world.

Military GME is in trouble due to many factors, some of which are mentioned above. The system has never been stressed like it is now, but unfortunately, it is almost impossible for premeds and med studs to comprehend the depth and significance of it. The military has to decide soon whether or not it wants to keep GME on life support or whether it's time to pull the plug. In my opinion, military GME needs to go. It's time to stop playing smoke and mirror games and start outsourcing all of our GME.
 
The military has to decide soon whether or not it wants to keep GME on life support or whether it's time to pull the plug. In my opinion, military GME needs to go. It's time to stop playing smoke and mirror games and start outsourcing all of our GME.

I strongly disagree with that. GME equates to academics. If you cut GME you cut academics. Academics is the backbone of a good health system. I claim that most physicians are going to want to be associated with a teaching hospital. Without GME what would military medicine become? It would be just locum tenens like work. There have been many scientific contributions from military medicine that have benefited society. The type of professionals that want to participate in research are the same type that participate in GME. What would happen to research without GME?
 
Academics is the backbone of a good health system. I claim that most physicians are going to want to be associated with a teaching hospital. Without GME what would military medicine become? It would be just locum tenens like work.

There are plenty of hospitals and healthcare systems out there that function just fine without any GME--HMO's, private hospitals, large multispecialty groups, etc. I'm guessing that 75% of physicians in this country are not academic faculty, and I'm sure most are satisfied with their careers and do not consider it "just locum tenens."

And by "getting rid of GME" I think most people mean getting rid of the comprehensive GME structure that we currently have, not literally closing every single GME program. GME in primary care specialties might be sustainable indefinately. It's training programs in many of the more technical, procedure-heavy specialties and subspecialties that should be closed. What's the point in maintaining surgical training programs that are very mediocre by civilian standards and largely consist of a collection of off-site civilian rotations where the residents actually learn to operate? (i.e. Keesler AFB and Wilford Hall).

Lastly, I think that the research efforts at most military medical centers are fairly low-impact and small-time compared to big civilian university medical centers. There is no reason DoD funding can't be used to support military-relevant research at civilian institutions. Speaking as someone who does a fair amount of research, it is very frustrating to try and complete research projects in an environment with very poor administrative support, frequent deployments, and a stifling bureaucracy.
 
Agreed, but the large referral centers are primarily academic, not private practice. Even within the military, the difficult cases are referred to the major MTFs, and are not handled at the smaller community analogues.

So what are we going to do with every GBM and complex elbow fracture when you shut down GME? Send it to your community colleagues who may or may not have the expertise to adequately manage it? Start MEDEVACing Marines to Stanford instead of Bethesda?

Or are you arguing that you can continue to have large academic-type departments at places like NNMC and WRAMC without having residents?

Honestly, the kind of cases that community tertiary care centers send to centers of excellence are the same cases we should be sending. For procedural outcomes, its all about the number of cases you see. This has absolutely nothing to do with the number of residents. I just don't buy that we are "large academic-type departments" and should be holding on to these cases. If anything, I think we hold onto patients longer than we should sometimes and do things to patients that should be done in a center of excellence.
 
In my opinion, military GME needs to go. It's time to stop playing smoke and mirror games and start outsourcing all of our GME.

I tend to think we're going to putter along and GME will survive this downturn. Its hard to say what will happen to civilian medicine over the next decade but I think its not unlikely that things will get worse out there. This will make milmed more attractive once we aren't deploying all the time again. Collectively, we really aren't in any major trouble with the ACGME and things will have to get much worse before we are.

We can't get rid of GME and GMOs because these folks represent a third of all the doctors we have seeing patients in our system. No GME=no GMOs and together, thats a huge manpower loss. Residents see a lot of patients.
 
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And by "getting rid of GME" I think most people mean getting rid of the comprehensive GME structure that we currently have, not literally closing every single GME program. GME in primary care specialties might be sustainable indefinately. It's training programs in many of the more technical, procedure-heavy specialties and subspecialties that should be closed. What's the point in maintaining surgical training programs that are very mediocre by civilian standards and largely consist of a collection of off-site civilian rotations where the residents actually learn to operate? (i.e. Keesler AFB and Wilford Hall).

Really, to have any type of residency training program you have to have teaching faculty for all the specialities. Interns have to rotate through ER, OB, Surgery, Psychiatry, Neurology, ICU and Peds. The Navy tried closing Peds a while back but ran into serious issues because there was nowhere left for the residents and interns from other programs to rotate through.

I think closing GME would be a big mistake.
 
Really, to have any type of residency training program you have to have teaching faculty for all the specialities. Interns have to rotate through ER, OB, Surgery, Psychiatry, Neurology, ICU and Peds. The Navy tried closing Peds a while back but ran into serious issues because there was nowhere left for the residents and interns from other programs to rotate through.

This is categorically false. There are literally hundreds of mid-sized community hospitals that maintain small GME programs in a just a few specialties--typically IM, peds, Gen. Surg., or FP. Andrews AFB maintained ONLY an FP residency for many years. In the DC area, Inova Fairfax is the classic example, with FP, peds and Gen Surg.

And lets face it, places like WRAMC, NNMC, BAMC et. al., with an average inpatient census of <250 and 12-16 OR's are really just mid-size community hospitals, not high-volume academic medical centers.
 
Seriously? Having just come from one of these, I'd be happy to put our surgical subspecialty numbers up against most anyones. Granted, there are some ultra-specialized problems that we do send folks out for, but for the cases that are routinely handled by the large regional referral centers, I'd bet the farm our numbers look fine.

There's a layer between small community hospitals and Centers of Excellence. I think we'd be pretty stupid to dump it.

Really. How many Whipple's were done at NNMC in the last year? how 'bout hepaticojejunostomies? Both of those are surgeries where there is data that you need to be doing >10 a year as a individual surgeon. The answer is 1 and 2. Where is NMCSD's biliary surgeon?..I heard he's deployed (of course he just came out of fellowship but what the heck).
 
This is categorically false. There are literally hundreds of mid-sized community hospitals that maintain small GME programs in a just a few specialties--typically IM, peds, Gen. Surg., or FP. Andrews AFB maintained ONLY an FP residency for many years. In the DC area, Inova Fairfax is the classic example, with FP, peds and Gen Surg.

And lets face it, places like WRAMC, NNMC, BAMC et. al., with an average inpatient census of <250 and 12-16 OR's are really just mid-size community hospitals, not high-volume academic medical centers.

FP is a special case. He's right that most programs require that there be the other core programs. I know you can't have a GI fellowship program without a surgical residency program, for example.
 
Cutting out GME would probably be a huge mistake for mil med. The Air Force has cut out GME much more than the army and navy, and what has that yielded them? It's lead to their hospitals being changed to super clinics, their surgeons being wasted, and a crisis in retention.

How many of the top civilian academic hospitals don't have residents?

Also, the army is not like private practice where you can just replace residents with PA's and whatnot. Can you imagine Walter Reed trying to hire PA's and NP's to fill in the work that the residents used to do?
 
I can't speak to General Surgery procedures, though I would probably tend to agree with you that the programs are weak.

Coming off the Ortho side though, sending out complicated trauma/arthroplasty revision/F&A/Sports stuff would be a hideous waste of truly excellent resources.

I can't speak to the volume of Ortho in the Navy or in in the Army now. What I can tell you is that when I was rotating through multiple programs in ortho in 2003 their volume was low. It's one of the reasons I opted not to do ortho -- but that's another story. BAMC had one fewer ortho resident each year than my medical school. My med school's ortho department ran 5-6 ORs from 7am to 6pm vs. 2-3 at BAMC all but one of which stopped at 3pm. The sports guys at my school did 6-7 knee scopes in one day. The joint guy would do 3-4 hips each day. The ORs were turned over at the civilain hospital in 20-30 minutes, it took an hour at BAMC. One ortho subspecialist who did his residency in the Army, but his fellowship in the civilian world told me his civilian "co-fellow" had twice as many cases as a resident than he did. Is the volume "enough"?, I don't know I'm not a surgeon. It sure seems to be less, however.

Ed
 
I am surprised at the number of folks defending continuing military GME. I agree with you that maintaining GME would be a good thing if the case volume and complexity at our "centers of excellence" were adequate to support it. As a USUHS grad, I spent significant amounts of time rotating at WRAMC and Bethesda, and I did residency at a combined WHMC/BAMC program. Having spent 5 years in San Antonio, I got to know staff and residents from both programs quite well. I can tell you that certain residencies at WHMC/BAMC are struggling with diminishing case volume to the point that it is getting difficult to meet ACGME criteria. Now, the ACGME doesn't want to see military residencies fail (I was present for 2 ACGME inspections in my program), so they are willing to work with us, but the reality is that even at our largest centers, case volume is becoming an issue. I won't list specifics, but the programs that are hardest hit tend to be surgery and surgical subs (ortho seems to be less affected) and heavily inpatient specialities. Primarily outpatient programs (ie optho and derm) seem to be less affected.

So again, I don't argue that having a healthy GME program would be good for military medicine. But there have been drastic cutbacks to the military medical service over the past 10 years that are seriously threatening our capacity to maintain the full spectrum of GME. Remember, up until the mid 1990s, Wilford Hall was a 1000 bed hospital. Now, per a briefing by a former AF Surgeon General (Peach Taylor) a couple of years ago, there are only 600 beds in the ENTIRE Air Force. That statistic clearly illustrates the current state of reality, which unfortunately, the higher-ups are dealing with by sticking their heads in the sand. Wilford Hall currently maintains only about 150 beds, and is constantly closing the ED to peds trauma due to lack of ICU beds, which seriously hurts the Emerg Med and Peds programs. Travis AFB, a former "medical center", maintains only about 85 beds and Keesler is going down the tubes (continually losing subspecialists) while trying to join up with Univ of Miss (3 hrs away) in a last ditch effort to rescue its GME program.

One of the main factors leading to the current state of affairs is when the AF decided to shunt the over-65 population to the civilian sector a few years ago, in an effort to focus on "expeditionary" medicine. Without the over-65 population, most GME programs will be significantly impacted. Unless the AF makes a significant change to this policy, then the downward spiral will continue and difficult decisions will have to be made about the future of AF GME.
 
Cutting out GME would probably be a huge mistake for mil med. The Air Force has cut out GME much more than the army and navy, and what has that yielded them? It's lead to their hospitals being changed to super clinics, their surgeons being wasted, and a crisis in retention.

How many of the top civilian academic hospitals don't have residents?


I would suggest that WRAMC, NNMC, WHMC et al. are no longer "top academic hospitals": certainly not in my department or any that I know of. The glory days are long past, even if the name recognition continues.

But in any case it really doesn't matter what you or I think about maintaining military GME, because it really isn’t up to the doctors. Take a look at AF surgical GME as a nice case study of how residency programs die. Air Force GME didn't collapse because of a conscious decision on the part of physicians to terminate residency programs. It fell apart because of command decisions made at a national level by people who have nothing whatsoever to do with GME. The programs weren't executed; they were starved to death by lack of resources.

For the most part, our accountants have decided that it is cheaper to outsource complex cases, dependents, and retirees to the civilian sector rather than maintain truly full-service medical centers. Hence, starting in the late 90's, Tricare largely eliminated our nationwide referral system and outsourced complex care to local civilian hospitals rather than transferring to big military medical centers. AF med. centers really lost their reason for existence and have gradually downsized to "superclinics." Then the over-65 crowd was gradually squeezed out of the system over the last 5-10 years, and those referrals dried up, leaving serious gaps in the resident experience.

Residency programs increasingly outsourced their trainees to get the needed case numbers or simply folded up and combined with local university programs. Formerly great programs were now less attractive to residents and faculty alike and the "best and brightest" are often not interested in working within the military GME system. Now no one is too enthusiastic about weak AF GME programs which are cobbled together with away rotations and the aforementioned "smoke and mirrors." It's great to see that Tired and Mirrorform are so wildly enthusiastic about their programs, but I don't hear similar enthusiasm from AF residents at any level in any surgical program.

The Army and Navy are headed down the same road whether you like it or not, although they seem to be moving more slowly and have larger systems to start with so they can hold out longer. Take a look at the CT program at Walter Reed, a once robust training program that was killed by outsourcing of the patient base. Vascular Surgery is rapidly headed down the same road and the General Surgery programs are not far behind. Talk to your General Surgery residents at NNMC about where they get most of their operative cases. I certainly have (since I work with them at my moonlighting job), and they tell me that the majority come from offsite rotations. It's hard to be loyal to an institution where you spend four years doing nothing but floor scut.

I’ll concede that some of the NCA programs can continue to be robust based on sheer size of the existing local patient base and favorable politics, but for other GME locales, I don't see how you can be optimistic.

Sorry for the length of the post, but since we're apparently winning the war, there just isn't a whole lot else to do here in the middle of the Iraqi desert.
 
I would suggest that WRAMC, NNMC, WHMC et al. are no longer "top academic hospitals": certainly not in my department or any that I know of. The glory days are long past, even if the name recognition continues.

I'm enjoying this discussion. I think its possible that military medicine is in irreversible multi-organ system failure. It seemed like efforts to cut costs were short sighted and resulted in this situation. I can't picture military medicine without GME. You would match in the national civilian match, complete a civilian residency then come online to active duty? One of my former mentors mentioned the military hospitals have almost doubled their residency classes. Wouldn't it make sense to attract people to stay after their obligation is up??
 
One of my former mentors mentioned the military hospitals have almost doubled their residency classes.

Urology residency spots in the Navy have gone from 6 (pre 2000) to a meager 2 now. I guess that is a tripling in the reverse direction. :laugh:
 
Very sad. Military medicine used to be an institution. What is it now:)
 
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