You rank the top MPH programs... (short survey)

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7StoryMtn

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I know there is a lot of discussion and debate about the accuracy and methodology of the published rankings for MPH programs.

So I am curious to get your opinions. I have put together a short survey where you can select the top three programs on the following attributes:

- Academics
- Research
- Faculty
- Individual Attention
- Quality of Life
- Job Placement
- Value (benefit/cost)

I'll share the results with everyone as soon as an adequate number of responses are collected. This is a public survey, so please feel free to share the link.

Click here to take the survey

Thanks!

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Interesting idea, be curious to see the results...
 
It gotta be tough for people to say, no? Most people have only really experienced one place in depth if at all.
 
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I don't see how this could be of any value... most people will only ever go to 1, maybe 2, 3, or 4 SPHs (master's doctorate, post-doc, faculty--any other combination?).
 
It gotta be tough for people to say, no? Most people have only really experienced one place in depth if at all.

I did think of that, but (1) I think most people do a good bit of research before applying/choosing a program, (2) there is a "Don't Know" option for each attribute, and (3) there is a follow up question, "How knowledgeable are you about the strengths and weaknesses of different MPH programs?" And I plan to look at responses in aggregate as well as a subset of those respondents who report that they are either "Extremely" or "Very" knowledgeable (about 50% of respondents so far).

There is also a question asking if the respondent is a prospective student, current student, graduate, or faculty/admin, each of which I think should be able to offer a differing but valuable perspective.

Hopefully, I'll get enough data to cross-tabulate and look at differences in ratings by these measures.

In any case, this really isn't meant to be a scientific investigation, and obviously, you should take any results with a grain of salt. I just thought it would be interesting.
 
I don't see how this could be of any value... most people will only ever go to 1, maybe 2, 3, or 4 SPHs (master's doctorate, post-doc, faculty--any other combination?).

I'm sorry that you don't see any value in getting other people's opinions -- I really don't think you need to attend a given school to be familiar with some of its strengths and weaknesses.

Some people on this board are still trying to decide where to apply/attend and may find it useful to quantify a wider range of opinions. This survey will allow individuals to look at particular dimensions that may be more/less important to them when selecting a school and see how others rank the schools on those dimensions. Personally, I think that's incredibly valuable. If you disagree, please feel free to abstain from participating.
 
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I think it's a great idea, given that the survey addresses the points that most people should consider in choosing a school... while the infamous US News rankings really just take into account the reputation of the research/publications coming out of each university.
 
I know there is a lot of discussion and debate about the accuracy and methodology of the published rankings for MPH programs.

So I am curious to get your opinions. I have put together a short survey where you can select the top three programs on the following attributes:

- Academics
- Research
- Faculty
- Individual Attention
- Quality of Life
- Job Placement
- Value

I'll share the results with everyone as soon as an adequate number of responses are collected. This is a public survey, so please feel free to share the link.

Click here to take the survey

Thanks!
:clap:
That's being a research enthusiast.

I like your endeavour and hope you'll report with honesty, even if it is to say that the results don't say much. I took the survey (it was really hassel free) and answered 'don't know' a lot :p.
I thought the 'value' attribute was not explicit and could have different interpretations.
 
You have listed only 20 programs. There are 43 schools of public health, and a much larger number of accredited programs in public health. All of these must meet standards, and the education at many would be considered to be excellent. You are introducing bias into your own survey by giving a limited number of selections. Having a choice of "other" or "don't know" does not eliminate this bias. Someone who really feels that, for example, their experience at Dartmouth or New York University was excellent, should be able to have their impressions counted. This does not even address the fact that by having a short list, you are going to cause bad feelings among those whose programs you omitted. I like the idea of the survey, but perhaps its structure could be reconsidered.
 
this survey has flaws. And its not like 7StoryMtn is sending this off for publication. Its a fun idea and shows initiative. I'm curious to see the results!
 
I'm sorry that you don't see any value in getting other people's opinions -- I really don't think you need to attend a given school to be familiar with some of its strengths and weaknesses.

Some people on this board are still trying to decide where to apply/attend and may find it useful to quantify a wider range of opinions. This survey will allow individuals to look at particular dimensions that may be more/less important to them when selecting a school and see how others rank the schools on those dimensions. Personally, I think that's incredibly valuable. If you disagree, please feel free to abstain from participating.

Please tell me how one can find out the truth strengths and weakness of a school based on what is publicly available. The majority of the information to truly assess the quality of the school are measures that the school keeps private (such as the way a class is taught, the breadth of information covered in a class, internship matching systems, etc.).

The problem I have with something like this is that it has the potential to spread false information (both positive and negative).
 
Please tell me how one can find out the truth strengths and weakness of a school based on what is publicly available. The majority of the information to truly assess the quality of the school are measures that the school keeps private (such as the way a class is taught, the breadth of information covered in a class, internship matching systems, etc.).

The problem I have with something like this is that it has the potential to spread false information (both positive and negative).

This is an OPINION poll. It measures people's PERCEPTIONS of different programs. The only information being collected/spread is what people THINK. I'm sorry if that is too complex a concept for you to understand.
 
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:thumbup:
You have listed only 20 programs. There are 43 schools of public health, and a much larger number of accredited programs in public health. All of these must meet standards, and the education at many would be considered to be excellent. You are introducing bias into your own survey by giving a limited number of selections. Having a choice of "other" or "don't know" does not eliminate this bias. Someone who really feels that, for example, their experience at Dartmouth or New York University was excellent, should be able to have their impressions counted. This does not even address the fact that by having a short list, you are going to cause bad feelings among those whose programs you omitted. I like the idea of the survey, but perhaps its structure could be reconsidered.

I second that!:thumbup:
 
So far, 19 people have participated in the survey. I am hoping to get a minimum sample size of 30 before running out the data, but interest seems to be waning. In any case, a cursory look at the data shows a fairly high level of agreement, so I'm not sure a large sample is necessary.

And for those of you who are opposed to my informal inquiry, which I will be first to admit has flaws and biases, I have decided NOT to publicly disclose the results. If you participated in the survey and you are interested in seeing the results, please PM me with your email address and let me know if you would like (a) the raw data, (b) a short summary/analysis of the results, or (c) both.

Once again, this was only meant as an informal survey to gauge people's opinions about different aspects of the most popular programs. I apologize if anyone's feelings were hurt by their school's exclusion. If anyone else cares to design a more comprehensive survey, please feel free. I would love to participate.
 
I was able to collect 31 surveys, so I thought I'd run out some numbers. Unfortunately, SurveyMonkey won't let me download a data file with a basic account and I can't justify spending $30 for it, so I transcribed the counts into a spreadsheet for analysis, which I will send to those who requested it.

For everyone else, I know I said I wouldn't report the results publicly but the more I thought about it the more I realized that that is just ridiculous. If you have a problem with it, flame away. A lot of people have PM'd me and are interested in the results, and are fully aware and understand the nature and limitations of the study.

To calculate an overall score, I first aggregated all votes (best, second, third) for each school across all the attributes. This yielded the following top 5 schools:
1. Hopkins (68) 2. Harvard (61) 3. Emory (44) 4. Michigan (43) 5. Columbia (40)

I then weighted the data so that each vote of "Best" would be worth 3, each vote of "Second" worth 2, and each vote of "Third" worth 1. This yielded the following:
1. Hopkins (170) 2. Harvard (129) 3. Emory (104) 4. Michigan (82) 5. UNC (77)

However, looking at the data, it was clear that respondents see clear differences along two "factors," or sets of attributes that are highly correlated to each other.

Rankings for the first factor (academics/research/faculty/job placement) are as follow:
1. Hopkins (61) 2. Harvard (50) 3. Columbia (28) 4. Emory (22) 5. Michigan (21) -- with the previously described weighting, Columbia and Emory swap places but the top 5 remain the same.

Rankings for the second factor (individual attention/quality of life/value) are as follow:
1. Emory (22) 2. Michigan (22) 3. UNC (22) 4. UC Berkeley (16) 5. Columbia (12)
-- weighting this factor does not change the rankings.

What is interesting here is that Hopkins and Harvard completely fall out of the top 5 in the second factor while Emory, Michigan, and Columbia are in the top 5 for BOTH factors.

My take: While Hopkins and Harvard are both top notch schools academically, students who attend these schools should be prepared to sacrifice not only financially (especially compared to public schools like UNC and Michigan), but also in terms of your quality of life and personal attention. Meanwhile, Emory, Michigan, Columbia, and UNC offer very competitive programs without having to make these sacrifices.

In the end, like anything else, you need to decide what matters most to you. But if you're like me, and you like a good balance, I think that you may want to think twice about attending one of the "top-tier" schools -- at least according to this survey.

One final note, if I were to critique the 'US News & World Report' rankings based on the data I collected, I would say they have UNC and Washington a bit too high, and Columbia and Emory a bit too low.

This is just my interpretation. Take it for what it is. I am a firm believer in the old saying, "It's the Indian, not the arrow." Simply going to the "best" school doesn't guarantee you anything, it's all what you make of the opportunity.

And if anyone is wondering about the respondent profile:
9% Extremely Knowledgeable, 22% Very, 50% Somewhat, 19% Not Very;
60% Prospective, 23% PH student, 10% PH graduate, 7% Other
 
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And if anyone is wondering about the respondent profile:
9% Extremely Knowledgeable, 22% Very, 50% Somewhat, 19% Not Very;
60% Prospective, 23% PH student, 10% PH graduate, 7% Other

While an interesting study, here's your problem - 60% of those responding have no real idea of what they're talking about, especially about quality of faculty and individual level of attention.
 
While an interesting study, here's your problem - 60% of those responding have no real idea of what they're talking about, especially about quality of faculty and individual level of attention.

Just because 60% of respondents are prospective students does not mean they have no idea what they are talking about. Do you think these people chose the programs they applied to and/or will attend blindly?

I am a prospective student and I can tell you that I not only did extensive research into class size and student teacher ratios, but also emailed and phoned numerous students in the programs that I am interested in to gather information about personal attention and quality of the faculty. Similarly, I have read dozens of published articles by faculty members at each of these programs, as well as researched their overall body of work on PubMed. Needless to say, I don't feel that I have "no real idea" about these things.

Many people who really didn't have much knowledge have also PM'd me to say that they did not participate for this very reason but would still like to see the results.

Additionally, please note that 80% of respondents report that they are at least "Somewhat Knowledgeable" abut the strengths and weaknesses of different programs.
 
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Just because 60% of respondents are prospective students does not mean they have no idea what they are talking about. Do you think these people chose the programs they applied to and/or will attend blindly?

I am a prospective student and I can tell you that I not only did extensive research into class size and student teacher ratios, but also emailed and phoned numerous students in the programs that I am interested in to gather information about personal attention and quality of the faculty. Similarly, I have read dozens of published articles by faculty members at each of these programs, as well as researched their overall body of work on PubMed. Needless to say, I don't feel that I have "no real ideal" about these things.

Many people who really didn't have much knowledge have also PM'd me to say that they did not participate for this very reason but would still like to see the results.

Additionally, please note that 80% of respondents report that they are at least "Somewhat Knowledgeable" abut the strengths and weaknesses of different programs.

It's not that they're not knowledgeable about the programs in general, it's just that they have no real basis for comparison. You can look at student:faculty ratios online, and research bodies of work, but that still doesn't let you know what those faculty are like in person or what the classes are like. Even asking other students isn't the best method, those likely to respond to prospective students tend to have strong opinions one way or the other. It's not an attack against you, it's questioning the results of the study.

No-one is flaming you or attacking you personally, we're just calling the utility of the survey into question. The way it is set up now is very similar to how US News and World Report ranks the schools (with the focus on research, student:faculty ratios, etc.).

I'm not suggesting that anyone will attend public health school blindly, just that it's very difficult to compare and rank schools if you don't have an in-depth understanding of how at least one works. I've only been a student for 4 months, did just as much research when you did while I was applying, and didn't feel qualified enough to rank other schools, much less my own - I effectively only have a real understanding of how part of one department really works.

There's also a lot of crossover in how the categories are set up - some respondents may have voted for job placement only while others voted on research only, some only on quality of life while others only on value.

Looking at your respondents another way, only 31% felt that they were very or extremely well-qualified to respond - hardly a firm basis from which to critique the US News methodology. I'm aware that you are not claiming exceptional validity or rigor for the study, but on discussion boards like this polls can carry a lot of weight. A lot of what I've learned in my MPH so far has dealt with study design and how to set up questionnaires, and I'm just sharing what I think the flaws are.

Other readers have expressed concern with this survey, your response has been to attack them (your response to Stories, a highly respected member on this forum, comes to mind) and ignore any constructive criticism that they provide.
 
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...we're just calling the utility of the survey into question.

If you don't see any value in it, then please simply disregard it. It's that simple. As I have said previously, plenty of other members on this board do see value in it, understand the survey's limitations, have taken into account others members' concerns, and are still interested in seeing the results.

Other readers have expressed concern with this survey, your response has been to...ignore any constructive criticism that they provide.
Really? Could you please point out the constructive criticisms?

Even better, maybe you can suggest a better way to learn about the different programs -- because according to you and Stories, the rankings are useless, prospective students have no idea what they are talking about, current students are in the dark (with exception of one piece of one program) or biased at best, and the schools themselves privatize the necessary information for assessing their own programs' quality.

So please, I'm curious to know, for those of us who were fortunate enough and worked hard enough to gain acceptance to a number of the top programs, what is a better (and realistic) method of evaluating our options?
 
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Looking at your respondents another way, only 31% felt that they were very or extremely well-qualified to respond - hardly a firm basis from which to critique the US News methodology.

If you want to send me THE $30 to upgrade my account, I'll look at a subset of this 31%, but I doubt it's going to look much different.
 
Even better, maybe you can suggest a better way to learn about the different programs -- because according to you and Stories, the rankings are useless, prospective students have no idea what they are talking about, current students are in the dark (with exception of one piece of one program) or biased at best, and the schools themselves privatize the necessary information for assessing their own programs' quality.

I wanted to refrain from putting info into this because of some thoughts I've previously made, but since you've specifically called my out, I'll give me input again.

I never said the ratings are useless, I questioned the value of it. I was open to learning what could be learned from it, but without any quantitative nor any objective measures, I was left wondering.

Here's my beef with how US News ranks schools: it's peer assessment, and that's it. I've posted previously about how there appears to be an association between the size of the school and its rank (http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=635402&highlight=public+health+rankings). It makes sense why a larger school would have a higher rank only based on peer assessment: they have the most graduates (particularly graduating with doctoral degrees) and are most present in the research community (how other academics perceive them). It's no wonder that the three largest schools have the highest rankings (Hopkins, Harvard, UNC).

The schools that are the biggest have the most graduates, the most name recognition because they have the biggest presence in the alumni-base, and thus the most well known. Everyone wants to go to a well known school, and potential students are most likely to research schools that are well known most thoroughly.

In any of these assessments (whether done by us as a poll or by US News), it's impossible to know anything about: course robustness, course teachings, teaching faculty (you wouldn't believe the number of faculty members that don't teach a single course but are factored into the faculty:student ratio--anyone that went to an Ivy-league school could tell you as much), course offerings, career resources, student networks, connections to the community, and (you get the picture). Even metrics that US News uses for med/law/business schools like: alumni giving, pass/fail rate of standardized practice tests, and quality of accepted student are not public data and as such are not equated into rankings.

Besides, with a discipline like PH, it's impossible to easily put one school above another because the focus(es) of each school is so drastically different. I'd bet that the VAST majority of people on this board have no place going to Harvard because they focus so heavily on research methods. The majority of people here have no place in research and don't want to be in research, but I'll bet nearly everyone thinks Harvard is a top 3 SPH and wants to go there regardless.

Basically, all I'm saying is,for a SPH, here's no clear cut best school. It's all dependent upon your needs and what you want out of your education.

EDIT: I just turned the data from that previous spreadsheet into a graphical image. As I mentioned before, pretty strong association there between size of classes and rank by US News.

sphrank.jpg


US News Rank / School / New Students in 2007
1.) Johns Hopkins - 654
2.) Harvard - 481
3.) North Carolina - 415
4.) Washington - 265
5.) Michigan - 386
6.) Columbia - 385
7.) Emory - 382
8.) UC-Berkeley - 195
8.) UC-LA - 264
10.) Minnesota - 338
11.) Pittsburgh - 176
12.) Texas - 179
13.) Boston - 261
13.) Tulane - 208
15.) Illinois-Chicago - 173
16.) Alabama-Birmingham - 149
16.) Yale - 102
18.) Iowa - 101
19.) George Washington - 279
20.) Southern Florida - 119
21.) Ohio State - 161
21.) Saint Louis - 129
21.) Arizona - 88
24.) Texas A&M - 80
24.) South Carolina - 160
 
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Even better, maybe you can suggest a better way to learn about the different programs -- because according to you and Stories, the rankings are useless, prospective students have no idea what they are talking about, current students are in the dark (with exception of one piece of one program) or biased at best, and the schools themselves privatize the necessary information for assessing their own programs' quality.

So please, I'm curious to know, for those of us who were fortunate enough and worked hard enough to gain acceptance to a number of the top programs, what is a better (and realistic) method of evaluating our options?

That's being just a tad extreme. Students, both current and prospective, certainly know enough to make a well-informed decision, but that doesn't mean that they are authorities in the field capable of objectively comparing all public health schools. In order to make my decision I contacted current students, asked them what they thought about the school, and made a checklist of things I wanted to get out of my MPH experience. I compared this list with what each school offered, how the students I talked to liked it, the research opportunities (each person has their own interests, so even a "top research" school may not have research that you're interested in), and the cost. I would say that this type of information will be more valuable to an individual and more useful in a decision making process than a poll trying to assess which school is the best. There's no metric that can measure or rank these values, especially not when individual preferences are taken into account.

Public Health is a very diverse field. School A might have an excellent epidemiology program but a terrible health behavior and health education program, School B might be the opposite. Which one is better? It depends on the applicant. That's what I meant when I said that only really knew about one department - my program doesn't offer me much freedom to take courses outside of my home department, so I don't feel qualified to judge other aspects of my school.
 
I never said the ratings are useless, I questioned the value of it.

value |ˈvalyoō|
noun
• the material or monetary worth of something
• the worth of something compared to the price paid or asked for
• the usefulness of something considered in respect of a particular purpose

Please explain how something can be useful and have no value at the same time?

Here's my beef with how US News ranks schools: it's peer assessment, and that's it.

This statement is 100% false.

'How We Calculate the Graduate School Rankings'
"We also rank programs in the sciences, social sciences, humanities, and many other areas, including selected health specialties. These rankings are based solely on the ratings of academic experts."

Health Rankings Methodology
"...health rankings are based solely on the results of peer assessment surveys sent to deans, other administrators, and/or faculty at accredited degree programs or schools in each discipline."

Since this invalidates the rest of your argument, I won't bother pointing out the numerous false assumptions you make in concluding that ranking is simply a function of enrollment. But I do like your pretty chart!

I think maybe you're just all wound up because neither of your schools made the cut. Keep trying, though, I'm really enjoying this!
 
Students, both current and prospective, certainly know enough to make a well-informed decision, but that doesn't mean that they are authorities in the field capable of objectively comparing all public health schools.

My intention was never to limit this survey to "authorities" in the field. I chose a sampling methodology that was more inclusive a diverse range of opinions and clearly stated that methodology for readers. This is exactly what I was interested in learning, so this is how I designed MY survey. As I have said before, if you want to design a survey with a different methodology, go ahead.

In order to make my decision I contacted current students, asked them what they thought about the school, and made a checklist of things I wanted to get out of my MPH experience. I compared this list with what each school offered, how the students I talked to liked it, the research opportunities (each person has their own interests, so even a "top research" school may not have research that you're interested in), and the cost. I would say that this type of information will be more valuable to an individual and more useful in a decision making process than a poll trying to assess which school is the best.

It seems you're contradicting yourself. Didn't you just say that:
...asking other students isn't the best method

Also, I'm not suggesting that anyone use these results as a substitute for personal research and due diligence. I'm simply offering a supplement to that.

There's no metric that can measure or rank these values, especially not when individual preferences are taken into account.

No, but you can create a metric to rank how people PERCEIVE these schools. And when the top students perceive a school as the best, they go to that school, which in turn gives that school an edge in the quality of its students, which attracts better instructors, which makes more people want to go there, and the whole cycle repeats itself until there are clear delineations in terms of which schools are the best.

Maybe you should consider taking some electives in Marketing to better understand how consumers' attitudes and perceptions drive their behaviors, and how perceptions are more often than not, largely correct.
 
This statement is 100% false.

'How We Calculate the Graduate School Rankings'
"We also rank programs in the sciences, social sciences, humanities, and many other areas, including selected health specialties. These rankings are based solely on the ratings of academic experts."

Health Rankings Methodology
"...health rankings are based solely on the results of peer assessment surveys sent to deans, other administrators, and/or faculty at accredited degree programs or schools in each discipline."

That sure sounds like peer ranking to me in fact you have bolded the words "based solely on the rantings of academic experts. Who do you think these are? Would not the very peers any school of public health would want to be judged by be the deans, administrators, faculty and other academic experts of other schools of public health?

Peer does not mean recent graduate or alumni...to steal a strategy from yourself one of the definitions of peer is...

Peer:

"a person who is equal to another in abilities, qualifications, age, background, and social status"

or

"something of equal worth or quality"

So yes this is peer assessment, yes there is no objective criteria and yes...you just did prove yourself wrong with those quotes. Last I checked academic experts are all peers unto themselves.

And I don't go to a school of public health yet so I have none of the bias you accuse the other guys of. And I already got into Michigan so one of my schools did "make the cut"

You need to chill out and just stop dismissing everyone dude. You're study deserves to be qualified. I thought the info linking class size to rank was particularly interesting so I'd love to hear your critiques and assumptions you think it possesses...that is if you actually do have them rather then offhandedly rejecting them based off of some statement you said was false that wasn't.

Thanks.
 
I think maybe you're just all wound up because neither of your schools made the cut. Keep trying, though, I'm really enjoying this!

Just a bad idea trying to go down the ad hominem route. Not that it matters, but I was accepted to 3 of your "Top 5" schools (I didn't apply to the other two, which is not to suggest I'm assuming I would have gotten in) and am currently attending one of those three.

If people disagree with you, it doesn't mean that they're stupider. You'll find that a lot of graduate school is working in groups/dealing with criticism from your peers and faculty advisers. Sometimes you won't like the advice, but it's always given in good faith, which is what I've tried to provide. If you don't like my input, you can ignore me, but insinuating that my critiques stem from the fact that I'm mad at your study solely because my school "isn't on the list" is a low blow and frankly one that I would not expect from someone who may be my colleague someday (keep in mind that public health, especially public health research, is a small world).
 
Just a bunch of talking heads in here. It's so typical of academics to criticize someone else without offering any better alternative. You think that ripping someone else's work makes you look smart? It doesn't. It just makes you look pompous and arrogant. You can frame it as "qualifying" or "constructive" if you want, but until you do something better, I think you should keep it to yourself.

If people read these results and do not take the time to understand the methodology behind them, that is not my problem. It doesn't negate the validity or value of the results, though. And just because you don't see the value in it doesn't mean there is no value in it.

I never claimed that my survey was a definitive ranking of the quality of each school/program, only that these are the schools that a sample of prospective and current student view as the best. How you can argue with that is beyond me...but apparently you're hell bent on trying.
 
Health Rankings Methodology
"...health rankings are based solely on the results of peer assessment surveys sent to deans, other administrators, and/or faculty at accredited degree programs or schools in each discipline."

If that isn't peer assessment, tell me what is. It's just relative thoughts of schools relative to each other. If look more closely, you'll also see that it's not complete deans, administrators and faculty at every school, just a smattering of each at each university. It's no where near robust enough to get truly accurate ratings of each school.

I think maybe you're just all wound up because neither of your schools made the cut. Keep trying, though, I'm really enjoying this!
Really? This suggests to me the only thing you care about is the validation amongst your peers. I hope this survey validates whatever it is you're searching for. I'm also well aware of where both BU and Yale's strengths and weaknesses are: because I made an education decision of where my research interests are suitable.
 
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This suggests to me the only thing you care about is the validation amongst your peers. I hope this survey validates whatever it is you're searching for.

The only thing I'm searching for is other people's opinions about these programs. Some of us who have the humility to admit that they do not know everything tend to find other people's opinions of value (except of course when those opinions are simply needless criticisms). I am simply trying to quantify them instead of deferring to a single "resident expert" on a message board.

It seems to me that you don't see the value of asking other people's opinions because you think you already have all the answers. Ironically, you seem to have no problem at all sharing your opinion in almost every threadI read. Why is that?

And I would still like you to explain how someone's opinion is somehow invalid when counted as just that, an opinion. Would like to argue with me because I think the color blue is better than the color red? I didn't think so. So why are you arguing with the fact that a bunch of people think School A is better than School B.

By claiming my study is of no value, you are insinuating that the other members on this board are not intelligent enough to critically examine the research (not surprising given your superiority complex), when in fact it is you who is unable to do so.
 
The only thing I'm searching for is other people's opinions about these programs. Some of us who have the humility to admit that they do not know everything tend to find other people's opinions of value (except of course when those opinions are simply needless criticisms). I am simply trying to quantify them instead of deferring to a single "resident expert" on a message board.

It seems to me that you don't see the value of asking other people's opinions because you think you already have all the answers. Ironically, you seem to have no problem at all sharing your opinion in almost every threadI read. Why is that?

And I would still like you to explain how someone's opinion is somehow invalid when counted as just that, an opinion. Would like to argue with me because I think the color blue is better than the color red? I didn't think so. So why are you arguing with the fact that a bunch of people think School A is better than School B.

By claiming my study is of no value, you are insinuating that the other members on this board are not intelligent enough to critically examine the research (not surprising given your superiority complex), when in fact it is you who is unable to do so.

I give my input on this forum to help people understand more about PH education because this is something I've researched inside and out for over 5 years now (I only recently discovered this board after applying for the PhD, and I want to provide as much as info as possible from my experiences). There are many ill conceived notions about PH education, and I'm here to break them down when I see it. Challenging dogma, if you will because PH is a field that's not well known and the vast majority of people ending up here don't know a thing about it until they accidentally run into it unlike medicine or law which kids in middle school know about.

I have no problem when it comes to ranking programs like medicine, law, or even humanities and social sciences because they all have one career objective in mind. However, for something as diverse as PH, a single ranking system really isn't appropriate, and these ranking systems really shouldn't matter to anyone because, let's face it, PH is not a field where going to Harvard versus Joe University that'll be the difference between you getting a job at a huge private industrial firm (like it might be if you were graduating from a law school) and living in the gutter.

There you go again insulting me directly :rolleyes: Also, thanks for sending me a nice PM and insulting my intelligence directly.

Please enroll and Columbia and tell me how it's superior to both of my schools that "didn't meet the cut" in both your own research and in US News. I'll happily take my inferior programs. Thanks.

I'm done with this thread.
 
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I wanted to refrain from putting info into this because of some thoughts I've previously made, but since you've specifically called my out, I'll give me input again.

I never said the ratings are useless, I questioned the value of it. I was open to learning what could be learned from it, but without any quantitative nor any objective measures, I was left wondering.

Here's my beef with how US News ranks schools: it's peer assessment, and that's it. I've posted previously about how there appears to be an association between the size of the school and its rank (http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=635402&highlight=public+health+rankings). It makes sense why a larger school would have a higher rank only based on peer assessment: they have the most graduates (particularly graduating with doctoral degrees) and are most present in the research community (how other academics perceive them). It's no wonder that the three largest schools have the highest rankings (Hopkins, Harvard, UNC).

The schools that are the biggest have the most graduates, the most name recognition because they have the biggest presence in the alumni-base, and thus the most well known. Everyone wants to go to a well known school, and potential students are most likely to research schools that are well known most thoroughly.

In any of these assessments (whether done by us as a poll or by US News), it's impossible to know anything about: course robustness, course teachings, teaching faculty (you wouldn't believe the number of faculty members that don't teach a single course but are factored into the faculty:student ratio--anyone that went to an Ivy-league school could tell you as much), course offerings, career resources, student networks, connections to the community, and (you get the picture). Even metrics that US News uses for med/law/business schools like: alumni giving, pass/fail rate of standardized practice tests, and quality of accepted student are not public data and as such are not equated into rankings.

Besides, with a discipline like PH, it's impossible to easily put one school above another because the focus(es) of each school is so drastically different. I'd bet that the VAST majority of people on this board have no place going to Harvard because they focus so heavily on research methods. The majority of people here have no place in research and don't want to be in research, but I'll bet nearly everyone thinks Harvard is a top 3 SPH and wants to go there regardless.

Basically, all I'm saying is,for a SPH, here's no clear cut best school. It's all dependent upon your needs and what you want out of your education.

EDIT: I just turned the data from that previous spreadsheet into a graphical image. As I mentioned before, pretty strong association there between size of classes and rank by US News.

sphrank.jpg


US News Rank / School / New Students in 2007
1.) Johns Hopkins - 654
2.) Harvard - 481
3.) North Carolina - 415
4.) Washington - 265
5.) Michigan - 386
6.) Columbia - 385
7.) Emory - 382
8.) UC-Berkeley - 195
8.) UC-LA - 264
10.) Minnesota - 338
11.) Pittsburgh - 176
12.) Texas - 179
13.) Boston - 261
13.) Tulane - 208
15.) Illinois-Chicago - 173
16.) Alabama-Birmingham - 149
16.) Yale - 102
18.) Iowa - 101
19.) George Washington - 279
20.) Southern Florida - 119
21.) Ohio State - 161
21.) Saint Louis - 129
21.) Arizona - 88
24.) Texas A&M - 80
24.) South Carolina - 160
UNC rank is 2 tied with harvard according to US news
 
I have to agree that this poll, however flawed it is, is helpful. Like the creator mentioned, it is pure opinion. I'm glad that someone took the initiative to gather opinions together, and I'm also glad that there are individuals who offer their own judgement based on their personal experiences. That said, I do not intend to take this poll, or the US News one, without considering how the polls were made. I believe people are intelligent enough to take the information they find online or elsewhere with a grain of salt...or at least I hope so...
 
I'm not insulting you, I'm giving you "constructive criticism" on your personality ;)

Honestly, your posts are the ones displaying a distinct lack of tact.

All that just because someone had the temerity to disagree with you on the internet?
 
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