Hello all, I am an undergrad psych major at a top ranked public university. I am currently on the pre-medicine track and was hoping to be a Psychiatrist one day, however, science classes are killing me and I am starting to realize my deep dislike for math and sciences. They have always been my weaker subjects throughout high school. Writing and the arts are my stronger suits. I am averaging C's in my sciences (I have only taken 3 pre-med courses and am predicting to get C's in the two that I am currently in). I stress entirely too much about my GPA and worry almost every day about getting into med school. I also didn't originally want to go into the medical field as it is something that I think is really not for me but I was going to tough out in order to specialize in psychiatry. I have taken several psych courses and have got A's in all of them. I have been researching grad programs and reading forums on here and am now leaning towards the Psy D route. I am not all that interested in research to be doing it full time which I know is what the PhD programs for psych mostly entails. I just wanted to get people's opinions on if I should stick with the pre-med route or go the grad school route. Also would like to get some info from people with PsyD's about what grad school entails, if you had issues with getting internships or jobs, and if you think the debt that it could bring me is worth it . Thanks a bunch!
Yet another decision help post
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The reputable PsyD's are about as research focused as many PhD's. Not sure that's the route for you if math and science aren't your bag. Although, neither the PhD or PsyD mostly entail research at the majority of programs. It's usually much more balanced.
Read this and come back with questions if you still have some
https://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/doctoral-applicants-read-first-helpful-threads.714255/
Read this and come back with questions if you still have some
https://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/doctoral-applicants-read-first-helpful-threads.714255/
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WisNeuro makes great points, but I'd like to add that this sentiment seems odd. You didn't want to go into the medical field, but you were going to "tough it out" for psychiatry? Psychiatry is a specialty of the medical field, arguably as is clinical psychology. If you "deeply dislike" medicine, math, and science, then doctoral programs in clinical psych, which are already difficult as it is, are going to be even more of a chore for you than for students who are passionate about all these things.
What exactly do you want to do and what are your interests? How would an MD, PhD, or PsyD help you fulfill them? Why did you pick psychiatry in the first place?
I don't want to make it seem like I absolutely want nothing to do with math or science because that is not the case. As I go through my pre-med prereqs I'm finding that maybe going the medical school route may not be for me and I have to work very very hard to make passing grades. The class averages on our exams are around 50% consistently. I absolutely love psychology and all of the classes I have taken thus far. I initially picked psychiatry because I knew that I wanted to go into the psychology field due to my deep interest in the field and my desire to work with and help people. I believe there is a large stigma against psychological disorders and believe that this should be reduced so that these disorders are viewed with the same sympathy and understanding as other medical conditions. I believe I possess good qualities to go into this field. I wanted to do psychiatry because of the ability to prescribe medications. The way medications interact with the body interests me a lot so I decided to go the medical route. Not to mention the difference in pay in which I'm now recognizing should not be a deciding factor in what I choose to do as I want to be happy with my career. I'm currently in abnormal psych and have talked a great deal with my professor who is a graduate PhD student in clinical psychology. I want to work in the clinical setting doing therapy with patients and this is why I am now leaning towards the PsyD.
when referring to the medical field, I mean I don't really enjoy blood and needles and that type of stuff.
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The vast majority of PhD grads are doing primarily clinical work. Also, most of these programs are fully funded, so I'd expand your search. Also, psych grad school classes aren't exactly easier than med school courses. I put more time and work into clinical psych classes than I had to for classes in med school such as neuroanatomy and neuropathology. Classwork in graduate school is far different than anything in the undergrad realm.
I'm not trying to say that I want to go to graduate school because I think it'll be easier, I just know that for me, and I'm sure it's the same for just about everyone, I excel more in classes I enjoy. I do not enjoy chemistry or physics and those type of classes in the slightest. I'm also getting an overwhelming opinion from various sources against the PsyD degree.. Why do people push PhD's over PsyD's (other than the fact that it's fully funded)?
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PsyD's are saturated by a number of professional schools that offer poor training, poor job outcomes (Match, license rates, etc) and mountains of debt (200,000k on average if I recall correctly from the APPIC survey). Pretty much all of that is a reason why they should generally be avoided, although there are some good ones (albeit it very few comparatively). People view them more poorly, just as they do with the professional schools (alliant, argosy, etc.) I know many internship sites that throw those applications away without reviewing them simply because of the poor quality of training
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In the 2009 survey, the majority of PSyDs had over 100k in debt, but I don't think the average was up over 200k yet. Although in the past 8 years since that survey was taken, I can imagine the mean has risen significantly. But yeah, everything else there is consistent with my experience.
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Because I was curious:
2015 average for all applicants was 94k.
2012 for PsyD was 143k with a 94k standard deviation and 30% had over 200k with 15% over 250k.
https://www.appic.org/Match/MatchStatistics/ApplicantSurvey2015Part3.aspx
2015 average for all applicants was 94k.
2012 for PsyD was 143k with a 94k standard deviation and 30% had over 200k with 15% over 250k.
https://www.appic.org/Match/MatchStatistics/ApplicantSurvey2015Part3.aspx
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Wow. Those numbers are shocking. I feel so sorry for anyone graduating with 200k+ debt. People on SDN have an array of attitudes about debt horror stories; mine is sympathy.
Another thing, though, is that most of these graduates will find a way to make it work. Maybe some end up in jail, or dead, or maybe they move to New Zealand. But the field is full of clinical psychologists functioning with this kind of debt load. Maybe they drive a Civic rather than an Acura. I'm sure very few go to bed hungry.
My experience is that established psychologists typically push funded programs. If PsyD programs had the superior funding, I think you would see more support for the PsyD, even on SDN. Currently I think recommending a funded program is the only sane thing for an experienced mentor to do.
There are extremists who don't believe in the Vail model. I don't think that's most of the field. The public has no opinion on this issue.
Another thing, though, is that most of these graduates will find a way to make it work. Maybe some end up in jail, or dead, or maybe they move to New Zealand. But the field is full of clinical psychologists functioning with this kind of debt load. Maybe they drive a Civic rather than an Acura. I'm sure very few go to bed hungry.
My experience is that established psychologists typically push funded programs. If PsyD programs had the superior funding, I think you would see more support for the PsyD, even on SDN. Currently I think recommending a funded program is the only sane thing for an experienced mentor to do.
There are extremists who don't believe in the Vail model. I don't think that's most of the field. The public has no opinion on this issue.
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I'm not sure I would qualify us as extremists. I think this belief is more widespread than you believe. Also, most people don't believe in the way that the model is usually implemented, rather than its concept in theory. Way too simplistic to paint it as a two-part categorical issue.
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I tend to identify prejudices based on behavior. In terms of behavior, it seems to me that psychologists are equally likely to refer patients to PsyDs and PhDs. I have also noticed that while some VAs and AMCs won't take PsyDs for practica or internship, many of these same programs hire PsyDs for clinical roles. The place where bias against PsyDs is strongest in academia, where PsyDs are rarely hired for tenure-track positions.
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This is assuming several things in some of these contexts. Perhaps the most glaring is the academia example. In that hiring situation, having a very strong CV, specifically in the realm of a strong publication record and sometimes ability to land grants, is coveted. In most cases, it isn't a bias issue, more than a huge gap in research experience and success in publishing. As far as the internship game, most of the applications we receive from some of the diploma mills are laughable. You could blind those applications in terms of graduate school name and they would still be immediately trash-canned. We still invite plenty from reputable PsyDs, though. Although, these programs are virtually indistinguishable from clinically oriented PhDs, making the distinction mostly irrelevant in those cases.
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This may be true of 4-year colleges and universities, but I don't find that to be the case in academic health centers. I'm surprised by how often I've encountered med school/AMC faculty with a PsyD as opposed to a PhD. PsyD faculty were unheard of to me when I was in training, hence the surprise.
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Funding is a big issue, but so are faculty-to-student ratios, the diversity and quality of training sites, research opportunities, and professional development resources. Typically, university-based programs (which include some PsyD programs) have more and better training resources. The differences between a high quality, university-based PsyD program and a balanced or clinically-oriented PhD program are pretty minimal.
One of the key markers of training quality is the rate of students who match in an APA-accredited internship, which is critical in most states for licensure. Match rates from lower-quality PsyD programs are consistently poor (anything below 80-85% year after year should be cause for concern). As WisNeuro pointed out, not all PsyD programs have poor outcomes, but many do. As with anything, you judge an idea ultimately by its implementation.
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On a related note, just found out from a patient that one of our primary care physicians doesn't believe that anxiety is real. Next thing you know they will be telling me there's no Santa Claus.
On the topic at hand, I am skeptical of a student being able to handle the rigors of becoming a psychologist if they can't get good grades in most of their classes. The GRE might also be a problem.
Are we referring to my grades? Topics on this post are now varying so I'm confused. I have gotten all A's in all classes except general chemistry at this point in my academic career so I'm not worried that I can't handle the rigors of the psychologist career path.
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That doesn't really track with what you wrote earlier.
I don't think you're really understanding what other people here saying. They're saying that doctoral programs in clinical psychology are very math and science heavy, which doesn't seem to comport with your "deep dislike" of these subjects and reported problems with them at the undergraduate level. They're saying that if you dislike math and science, grad school will be that much harder for you than it is for other people who love math and science, and it's already very difficult. They're saying that grad school courses are nothing like undergraduate courses. They're saying you should ask yourself questions about what you want to do and why you need (not want) a doctorate to do those things. They're saying that funded doctoral programs (PhD or PsyD) are as competitive, if not more competitive than med school (based on acceptance rates). They're saying that unfunded programs are bad ideas because of both the debt and the poor training/education involved. They're saying you should read the stickied thread, because many other people have had the same questions you initially presented with.
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Guess I misunderstood what you were saying. On the other hand when someone makes an ignorant statement such as they don't like math and science so they want to be a clinical psychologist, they might expect a bit of a negative reaction. To be fair, it could be that you have just had the weak exposure to psychology that many undergrads experience since it is such a popular major and thus have no real idea what it really entails. The main psych classes that really benefitted me from undergrad were neurobiology, research methods, and statistics. These also happened to be the most hated of the classes by the average psych major.
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Agree with @MamaPhD.
At my AMC, I am aware of four PsyDs who are actively engaged in research studies, as well as different clinical cases. Actually, the AMC "let go" three PhDs in Clinical Psychology who were unable to meet certain standards of performance. Two of the PsyDs employed at the AMC graduated from Clinical Psychology programs that are not APA-accredited; and they are absolutely outstanding researcher-psychologists (with peer-reviewed publications) who have provided positive service to many departments of the AMC, including neurology, psychiatry, internal medicine, surgery, anesthesiology and PM&R.
The PsyDs and PhDs are included in rounds, seminars, presentations and workshops. My department has worked with one of the PsyDs and we were 100% satisfied with the PsyD's depth of knowledge, skills and expertise.
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