Yeah, so about those "Consulting" jobs...

[DrDude]

Seems whenever someone asks what they can do with a M.D. degree and no residency, people tell them they can go into "consulting". Usually this is followed by some very vague description of what these consulting jobs entail and how a friend of a friend makes "a lot of money" doing this type of work.

So can someone for once be specific about what kind of consulting jobs there are for those with an M.D. without a residency? What do you actually do on a day-to-day basis in these mysterious consultant jobs? Maybe put up some web links to the types of consulting jobs you're talking about which gives a job description and requirements??

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[biggiesmallsiz]

Seems whenever someone asks what they can do with a M.D. degree and no residency, people tell them they can go into "consulting". Usually this is followed by some very vague description of what these consulting jobs entail and how a friend of a friend makes "a lot of money" doing this type of work.

So can someone for once be specific about what kind of consulting jobs there are for those with an M.D. without a residency? What do you actually do on a day-to-day basis in these mysterious consultant jobs? Maybe put up some web links to the types of consulting jobs you're talking about which gives a job description and requirements??

consult insurance.
work for fbi as forsenic consultant (scully)

 

[DrDude]

consult insurance.
work for fbi as forsenic consultant (scully)

Insurance companies usually require you to be BE/BC, which means you need to do a residency. Same with forensic consulting. What I'm talking about are those consulting jobs people claim you can do with just an M.D. degree and no residency experience.

 

[SnowTown]

I know an engineer who worked as an engineer, went back and got a master in engineer, but decided to go more towards the business field and was recently hired by McKinsey & Company, a consulting company.

He showed me a sort of "hiring year book" and lo and behold there are several MDs from the likes of Harvard, Stanford, Yale...etc.

So a place to start might be looking at the company's website...

http://www.mckinsey.com/careers/who_is_mckinsey/what_we_do.aspx

 

[NonTradMed]

I know an engineer who worked as an engineer, went back and got a master in engineer, but decided to go more towards the business field and was recently hired by McKinsey & Company, a consulting company.

He showed me a sort of "hiring year book" and lo and behold there are several MDs from the likes of Harvard, Stanford, Yale...etc.

So a place to start might be looking at the company's website...

http://www.mckinsey.com/careers/who_is_mckinsey/what_we_do.aspx

Mckinsey is one of the hardest consulting gigs to crack. They almost exclusively cull their ranks from top tier schools (graduation from top schools itself is no guarantee, but is pre-requsite, of course). You don't need an MD to work there, just top notch pedigree, some connections, ability to pass their four rounds of interviewing (at least the kid I knew who interviewed there told me it was four rounds of testing), plus some great work experience.

 

[OncHeme2B]

You guys are totally missing the boat. It's working for pharmaceuticals people!!!! Selling your soul to the devil is WAY fun =)

 

[Law2Doc]

Seems whenever someone asks what they can do with a M.D. degree and no residency, people tell them they can go into "consulting". Usually this is followed by some very vague description of what these consulting jobs entail and how a friend of a friend makes "a lot of money" doing this type of work.

So can someone for once be specific about what kind of consulting jobs there are for those with an M.D. without a residency? What do you actually do on a day-to-day basis in these mysterious consultant jobs? Maybe put up some web links to the types of consulting jobs you're talking about which gives a job description and requirements??

Just do a google search of "management consulting" jobs in healthcare and you should find some. Very selective and fairly hard jobs to get actually, because physicians tend to lack a lot of the basic business skills (and likely would be expected to do some residency to have at least worked for a bit first); working in corporate america for a few years, or a small consulting boutique right out of college and then getting an MBA is often a much better route for consulting. And I agree with the above, if you aren't an Ivy undergrad top med school pedigree type, you probably don't have much of a shot at the McKinzie, or Booze Allen type shops -- it will more likely be someplace you've never heard of (and for a much lower salary).

 

[JackBauERfan]

consult insurance.
work for fbi as forsenic consultant (scully)

Umm, I think scully actually did a pathology residency, she did a lot of autopsies to just have known how to do it out of med school. I did watch a lot of xfiles!

 

[SnowTown]

Mckinsey is one of the hardest consulting gigs to crack. They almost exclusively cull their ranks from top tier schools (graduation from top schools itself is no guarantee, but is pre-requsite, of course). You don't need an MD to work there, just top notch pedigree, some connections, ability to pass their four rounds of interviewing (at least the kid I knew who interviewed there told me it was four rounds of testing), plus some great work experience.

haha, yeah, I guess I left that part out.

yes, 4 rounds of interviews... but coming from a prestigous school is probably not a pre-requsite, just top tier school for a given field.

it seems to me like landing a gig at Mckinsey is harder than getting into a top 5 med school

 

[Law2Doc]

it seems to me like landing a gig at Mckinsey is harder than getting into a top 5 med school

By a lot. McKinsey probably doesn't hire anything close to the 700 people per year that get into top 5 med schools.

 

[SnowTown]

By a lot. McKinsey probably doesn't hire anything close to the 700 people per year that get into top 5 med schools.

damn my bro is a badass... i'm like the dumbest guy in the family.

 

[linuxizer]

By a lot. McKinsey probably doesn't hire anything close to the 700 people per year that get into top 5 med schools.

It's a silly comparison. There are entirely different prerequisites for each. Many people who could land a job at McK/BCG/Bain/Booz couldn't get into a top 5 med school. Many people who could get into a top 5 med school couldn't land a job at McK/BCG/Bain/Booz.

Ari

 

[SnowTown]

It's a silly comparison. There are entirely different prerequisites for each. Many people who could land a job at McK/BCG/Bain/Booz couldn't get into a top 5 med school. Many people who could get into a top 5 med school couldn't land a job at McK/BCG/Bain/Booz.

Ari

so you're saying those MDs from Havard, Stanford, UCSF... or MBAs from the likes of UPenn, or engineers from MIT... whom landed jobs at McKinsey can't get into a top 5 med school if they really wanted to?

 

[NewmansOwn]

I know a Harvard MD who didn't do a residency and worked for boatloads of money and time off at the Advisory Board Company in DC. I used to work there, and he basically just runs a division of the company that contracts out MDs as educational speakers. So someone needing a medical-related lecture for their employees will call him and say "I need an MD to yap about medical stuff for an hour." The MD at the Advisory Board will then call one of his contacts (clinicians/researchers who give speeches to make some extra $$$) and tell him/her to go speak at this company. Then, he sends the requesting company a bill for $8,000. He has it very, very good -- only came into the office 2-3 days per week.

 

[Biscuit799]

You guys are totally missing the boat. It's working for pharmaceuticals people!!!! Selling your soul to the devil is WAY fun =)

How does one get that job? I have no idea who to go about working for a pharm co. Are there jobs that don't involve bench research?

 

[Slide]

so you're saying those MDs from Havard, Stanford, UCSF... or MBAs from the likes of UPenn, or engineers from MIT... whom landed jobs at McKinsey can't get into a top 5 med school if they really wanted to?

They require different sets of skills, so yes, I'm willing to take the bait and say that linuxizer is more spot on. I graduated from one of the above-mentioned schools and have a few friends that work or have interviewed at McKinsey...their work ethic is strong, but not as strong as those of my classmates or other medical students I know. If you met them, you'd wonder how they'd be able to land such a job as well. What got them the job wasn't their smarts or their track record, it was connections made through their internships and classes, their ability to BS and schmooze, number-crunching power, business acumen, and a willingness to slave toward financial goals (oh yeah, lest I forget about the appearance of their resume). Those same skills won't necessarily get you into the top 5 med schools.

Granted, the people with graduate degrees getting jobs at such business firms won't probably be as I described, but they have the ability to socialize in a business setting and have the characteristics interviewers look for, and that will not translate into them being shoo-ins to top5 medical schools as well.

Moreover, as with applying to top consulting firms, getting accepted to top 5 med schools involves a random component as well.

Nailed perfectly; the 4 round interviewing process is similar to med school interviews that sometimes it's a crapshoot and even perfect figures won't get you in. At the very least, though, McKinsey has the courtesy to invite you to free fancy dinners and bars after you make the first rounds. Airfare, of course, is paid for. One of my friends in my fraternity would always tell me about how the companies would bring them to NYC, blow $500 in one meal, come back trashed, and then repeat it a few days later. He never had to open his wallet.

 

[linuxizer]

so you're saying those MDs from Havard, Stanford, UCSF... or MBAs from the likes of UPenn, or engineers from MIT... whom landed jobs at McKinsey can't get into a top 5 med school if they really wanted to?

Well, I hope the MDs can get into medical school. For the others, there's much overlap between the two skill/credentials sets, but it's not nearly 100%.

Many MBAs from Penn, engineers from MIT, etc. at McK/BCG/etc. would be able to get into a top 5 school. Many would not. They're looking for different things, although certain things overlap. Being compassionate, or being able to fake such compassion, are not pre-requisites for consulting, whereas highly-polished social skills are not required for med school (note the adjective...gotta have some, but not at nearly the same level).

Moreover, as with applying to top consulting firms, getting accepted to top 5 med schools involves a random component as well.

--Ari

 

[BullsOnParade]

I would venture to say that most med students/MD's would be abysmal failures in the business world. Or at the very least, they would be the analysts and number crunchers; the guys who aren't respected because they don't bring in money directly. The skill set is entirely different.

If doctors made good businessmen, we wouldn't have lost control of healthcare to men in suits. And the MD's that can hack it in the business world (not analyzing claims or lecturing on med devices but actually running companies), probably never should have gone into medicine at all.

 

[chicklett1]

I envision doctors who don't complete residencies as destined to hawking herbal remedies on infomercials on late night TV.

I'm sure there are tons of MDs who endorse weight loss drugs, energy supplements, magical cures for impotence, and the like. Ugh.

 

[SnowTown]

Well, I hope the MDs can get into medical school. For the others, there's much overlap between the two skill/credentials sets, but it's not nearly 100%.

Many MBAs from Penn, engineers from MIT, etc. at McK/BCG/etc. would be able to get into a top 5 school. Many would not. They're looking for different things, although certain things overlap. Being compassionate, or being able to fake such compassion, are not pre-requisites for consulting, whereas highly-polished social skills are not required for med school (note the adjective...gotta have some, but not at nearly the same level).

Moreover, as with applying to top consulting firms, getting accepted to top 5 med schools involves a random component as well.

--Ari

All but a few of the people hired are the likes of UPenn MBAs, Harvard Law, MIT engineering PHD...etc

I was thinking more of a person's potential instead of skill sets and experinces that person currently possesses.

 

[Law2Doc]

It's a silly comparison. There are entirely different prerequisites for each. Many people who could land a job at McK/BCG/Bain/Booz couldn't get into a top 5 med school. Many people who could get into a top 5 med school couldn't land a job at McK/BCG/Bain/Booz.

Ari

The 4 folks I know at McK and Booz had top grades from top Ivies. I have no idea if this is a random grouping but I know them from different contexts. I have no question they could have gotten into top med schools, had they had that interest. They have the grades, essays and interviewing skills. The only real difference is that there is a much greater focus on educational pedigree in the business consulting world. So if you aren't from a top school, you have a much harder time getting looked at. Not as true in med school where the dude with amazing grades and MCAT probably will get looked at by top schools even if he didn't attend Harvard undergrad.

 

[linuxizer]

I was thinking more of a person's potential instead of skill sets and experinces that person currently possesses.

If we're speaking in terms of some abstract potential, I'd be willing to bet that nearly everyone at one of the big four could land a gig at at top 5 med school. Of course, you could argue that nearly everyone at a top 5 med school, had they learned equally important things for their alter role (polishing those social skills, for instance, or choosing the Ivy over the state school), would be a shoe-in for any consulting job. I don't think the broadly hypothetical here is particularly useful.

Anyway, to answer the underlying question, of course people at top consulting gigs would be very competitive for top med schools, and vice versa. The same applies for the top of any highly competitive field: i-banking, law, etc. (particularly those that require a modicum of quantitative rigor).

Ari

 

[sprinkibrio]

How does one get that job? I have no idea who to go about working for a pharm co. Are there jobs that don't involve bench research?

Um, sales?!!!?!?! The people making the drugs aren't the "devils." Have you been thinking this throughout med school?

 

[Reimat]

If doctors made good businessmen, we wouldn't have lost control of healthcare to men in suits. And the MD's that can hack it in the business world (not analyzing claims or lecturing on med devices but actually running companies), probably never should have gone into medicine at all.

I disagree because the healthcare landscape has changed so much in recent times. Most of the white/grey haired doctors went into medicine because it was more prestigious and far better paying than all but a small minor of business jobs - certainly this is questionable for our generation. Plus, most doctors were also leaders in their communities, they had more freedom to practice, etc, etc... Basically they just failed to foresee (and failed to lobby effectively) the series of policy and systemic changes that reordered the whole profession. Nor did they have the training to run the biggest business in this country.

People who go into business aren't born with the skills to succeed in the "business world" - they train hard for years to learn those skills. Which is probably the biggest reason doctors w/o residency are pretty useless - they bring a bunch of knowledge that a science major with a BS could find at the price of $40,000/year versus Dr. Reimat who would want $100,000. Basically, 4 years of med school just puts you 4 years behind the people who went in right after undergrad.

The thing I always hear entrepreneurs say is "for every success I've had, I also had 9 failures." This thread is suffering from the "grass is greener" phenomenon.

 

[montessori2md]

Seems like you could work for the feds somehow, in multiple areas (health, defense, policy, epa?). There are dozens of non-profits in health care whose sole purpose is to lobby or advocate for their causes (whether oncologists or birth control), seems that some of them could use an MD. Private sector: maybe working for a company that creates software for electronic medical records (Oracle, among others), that sort of thing. Or the shadier "alternative medicine" type thing -open your own spa, make your own moisturizer! I would think, at the start, you might make less than if you were in practice, but once you had the necessary relevant experience, you could make much more than in practice. If serious about it, I'd look into doing an internship in the area you're interested in, contact organizations you'd like to work with, and see what your options are.

I do think it would be easier if you'd go to the bother to complete at least a transitional year, if not residency.

 

[notdeadyet]

Seems like you could work for the feds somehow, in multiple areas (health, defense, policy, epa?). There are dozens of non-profits in health care whose sole purpose is to lobby or advocate for their causes (whether oncologists or birth control), seems that some of them could use an MD.

Most non-prof and fed jobs pay peanuts. Something to keep in mind. Also, most good "causes" have passionate qualified people to speak for their cause. They'll get residency-trained, experienced physicians, not an unlicensed MD-holder.

 

[Law2Doc]

Most non-prof and fed jobs pay peanuts. Something to keep in mind.

Agree. You absolutely could get a ton of jobs in the public service sector, but many would pay in the same range you would be getting as a resident, but without much more than cost of living increases over time. It would take you a lifetime to pay off your student debt. Of course the hours would be quite chill, and the offices might be nice.