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why does WSU/DMC consistently match FMGs? This year alone they matched 4 or 5 +
WSU/DMC and FMGs?
- Thread starter iloveer
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deleted109597
Who are you people?
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Like EM2BE said, WSU/DMC and WSU/Sinai Grace all match FMGs into their program for one reason and one reason only...they don't seem to be biased towards FMGs and consider us on an equal playing field (or as close as possible). Frankly, that's all that FMGs can ask for, that we be considered equally for residency positions. From talking to some of their residents and attendings, like many places that consider FMGs for their positions, they've had FMGs rotate through their hospitals and residents that have matched there and were satified with their work. I interviewed at Sinai-Grace last year and I thought their program was great and produced solid residents. Honestly, I know I might be a little biased, but EM residents that graduated from Caribbean medical schools are some of the hardest working and knowledgable residents I've seen.
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IMHO I think it is more that they take who they can get. If they didn't rank FMGs they would have to scramble. I interviewed at Sinai-Grace (I am an AMG) and lets just say I ranked it dead last and was praying I didn't match there. And I am a pretty laid back dude. I could have just as easily alphabetized my rank list and been happy anywhere else. However, I would have gone there rather than scramble. But this is just one persons perspective and I don't intend to put anyone else down.
Basically, my biased (AMG) opinion is not that they see how hard FMGs work and put them on a level playing field. If you think that, you are lying to yourself. They probably interview many FMGs because AMGs do not accept. On my interview early in the season it was 60% FMGs and the others were Wayne State students. I mean how can it be a level playing field. That would imply that they wouldn't care which student they matched if they both were identical in every way except one graduated from the US and the other from an international school. I GUARANTEE the AMG in that scenario would win every time.
Basically, my biased (AMG) opinion is not that they see how hard FMGs work and put them on a level playing field. If you think that, you are lying to yourself. They probably interview many FMGs because AMGs do not accept. On my interview early in the season it was 60% FMGs and the others were Wayne State students. I mean how can it be a level playing field. That would imply that they wouldn't care which student they matched if they both were identical in every way except one graduated from the US and the other from an international school. I GUARANTEE the AMG in that scenario would win every time.
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Hey Shaw,
Over interview season I attempted to avoid the public opinion of "best program" as I agree with the adage that it's not "how good the program is" but "how good it is for you". I'm an FMG and had interviews at places that people here consider "high ranking" programs and interviews at places that are "low ranking". I personally saw nothing wrong with grace....the third years were having no problem getting jobs or fellows if they wanted. It appeared to me they saw all they wanted and more to be fantastic EPs. I'm just curious as to why you were praying you would not go there...did i miss something? Or is this a feeling of because there is "60%" FMGs on your interview day that this place is not worthy of you? Not trying to be personal or offensive...just asking.
Over interview season I attempted to avoid the public opinion of "best program" as I agree with the adage that it's not "how good the program is" but "how good it is for you". I'm an FMG and had interviews at places that people here consider "high ranking" programs and interviews at places that are "low ranking". I personally saw nothing wrong with grace....the third years were having no problem getting jobs or fellows if they wanted. It appeared to me they saw all they wanted and more to be fantastic EPs. I'm just curious as to why you were praying you would not go there...did i miss something? Or is this a feeling of because there is "60%" FMGs on your interview day that this place is not worthy of you? Not trying to be personal or offensive...just asking.
No it had nothing to do with the FMGs. I also picked programs on how they would be the best fit for me. I also avoided going on what other people said. I just didn't like Grace at all. During my interview week, we had no get togethers scheduled until the day of the interview, residents I spoke with seemed miserable, the interviews were poorly done, the area was complete crap, etc, etc. I was just giving my completely personal opinion as to why they get FMGs. Some FMGs are VERY QUALIFIED (heck I would bet that most I met on the interview trail had higher scores than me, etc), but there is some truth to the perception that FMGs often get positions unwanted by most AMGs. I just feel that AMGs are almost always preferred.
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Some friends of mine (FMGs) had PDs tell them on interview day that they will be ranking AMGs above all or most of the FMGs. I don't think this is a big surprise or secret. Still, as an FMG, all I want is to be fairly considered and evaluated just like all the other AMGs. I don't think that's too much to ask. I want to be an EP more than anything and that's what I tried to convey to programs at the interviews that I had.
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One of the reasons that the DMC programs may not be as competitive as some programs is probably based on their location...Detroit. For the most part, only people that are from Detroit want to train in Detroit. It has a reputation as a pretty tough city, one that I cannot disagree with.
It's funny to hear you talking about Grace as a program you were praying you would not end up at, ranking it last. Grace was actually one of my favorite programs, which is why I am surprised to hear such negativity, a recurrent theme on SDN. A friend of mine trained in Detroit years ago and he was one of the best physicians I ever worked with. I never saw him break a sweat no matter how tough things got. That confidence made me apply to the Detroit programs.
On my rank list I passed up better known programs with a higher prestige for a chance to be here at Grace. Some were "shiny" and new looking and some had tons of research. Most were the county programs, but a few were in suburbia and offered great perks and a light schedule. Considering I am an IMG, I should feel honored that these programs even looked at me, although I have a great background and excellent scores. In the end, despite love for a few programs, I had to go with my gut and choose someplace that I fit. I came here to learn and to see the pathology unique to Detroit and other inner city programs. In fact, the things that attracted me were probably the things that repelled you. I just don't do shiny very well. A little chaos makes me feel more at home, which is not the case for many people. The program is EXACTLY what they told me it was and they have kept every promise that they made during my interview. The PD is the same person you saw in the interview, no facades. His demeanor was also a big draw for me. During this years interview process, I did not try to gloss things over for the candidates to attract people like you. I tell people exactly what our program is about in the hopes they will see in it what I saw in it. And while I am a bit nervous that my car will break down on the way to work, that same "crap neighborhood" you despised provides me with an incredible training opportunity.
As far as I know, noone in my program is unhappy. I have worked in several highly regarded emergency departments and I have been very impressed with our seniors in comparison. Not because they are in my program, but because they are really impressive. Their procedural skills are unparallelled. As an intern, some of my procedures probably outnumber those of seniors of some other programs. It was one of the attractions for me. With all of this hard work comes experience. If I thought it would have come easily, I would have chosen an easier place.
I cannot begin to tell you why so any IMG's end up here in Detroit, my program director may have to clarify that. Perhaps he can have the best of the IMG's when many programs are relucatant to interview them because of their "prestige". Maybe self selection plays a role. AMG's may be reluctant to rank a program that has IMG's because they see it as inferior to more selective programs. Thus far the mix has worked very well for our program.
I hope in the end you ended up in a program that fulfills everything you were looking for. I did.
ditch
It's funny to hear you talking about Grace as a program you were praying you would not end up at, ranking it last. Grace was actually one of my favorite programs, which is why I am surprised to hear such negativity, a recurrent theme on SDN. A friend of mine trained in Detroit years ago and he was one of the best physicians I ever worked with. I never saw him break a sweat no matter how tough things got. That confidence made me apply to the Detroit programs.
On my rank list I passed up better known programs with a higher prestige for a chance to be here at Grace. Some were "shiny" and new looking and some had tons of research. Most were the county programs, but a few were in suburbia and offered great perks and a light schedule. Considering I am an IMG, I should feel honored that these programs even looked at me, although I have a great background and excellent scores. In the end, despite love for a few programs, I had to go with my gut and choose someplace that I fit. I came here to learn and to see the pathology unique to Detroit and other inner city programs. In fact, the things that attracted me were probably the things that repelled you. I just don't do shiny very well. A little chaos makes me feel more at home, which is not the case for many people. The program is EXACTLY what they told me it was and they have kept every promise that they made during my interview. The PD is the same person you saw in the interview, no facades. His demeanor was also a big draw for me. During this years interview process, I did not try to gloss things over for the candidates to attract people like you. I tell people exactly what our program is about in the hopes they will see in it what I saw in it. And while I am a bit nervous that my car will break down on the way to work, that same "crap neighborhood" you despised provides me with an incredible training opportunity.
As far as I know, noone in my program is unhappy. I have worked in several highly regarded emergency departments and I have been very impressed with our seniors in comparison. Not because they are in my program, but because they are really impressive. Their procedural skills are unparallelled. As an intern, some of my procedures probably outnumber those of seniors of some other programs. It was one of the attractions for me. With all of this hard work comes experience. If I thought it would have come easily, I would have chosen an easier place.
I cannot begin to tell you why so any IMG's end up here in Detroit, my program director may have to clarify that. Perhaps he can have the best of the IMG's when many programs are relucatant to interview them because of their "prestige". Maybe self selection plays a role. AMG's may be reluctant to rank a program that has IMG's because they see it as inferior to more selective programs. Thus far the mix has worked very well for our program.
I hope in the end you ended up in a program that fulfills everything you were looking for. I did.
ditch
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This shows you how important fit is in terms of different programs. It is incredible how different each program felt on the trail! I know that with my (I love being able to say that!) program, I recieved a lot of flack from everyone I know about ranking them first and about liking them as much as i did. My mentor told me that with my grades, I could get in whereever I wanted and why should I waste myself! but I LOVE my program. I could not have found a better place!
I knew after my month sub-I there that I wanted to stay, and then I did a month away, and during that away month I felt like such a sore thumb. Then when I went back and visited I felt this sensation like I had come home, which is why I chose to do another month there
I didn't apply/interview at very many spots because I already knew where I wanted to be for the next four years and I decided there was no point wasting my time or money!
So, basically, my program is nowhere near the most prestigious program in the country; it's new, the hours are some of the longest in the country, it's four years, there's a lot of commuting, the academics aren't as strong as other programs I saw, and new york city is expensive; but i can't imagine myself anywhere else!
Honestly, I think this is something that we should take pride in! We don't have those preset ideas of what the top program in the country is. I don't HAVE to go live in Boston for 3 years because it's the BEST IM program in the country, even though I hate it and hate the people; instead I get to pick the place that works best for me, knowing that any of the program I go to will ensure I am trained well and that I will get a job. this is truly a huge blessing.
wow.. this is a terrible, roundabout post, but I just woke up, and I don't have the energy to clean it up. Sorry. I hope my point sort of gets across.
I knew after my month sub-I there that I wanted to stay, and then I did a month away, and during that away month I felt like such a sore thumb. Then when I went back and visited I felt this sensation like I had come home, which is why I chose to do another month there
I didn't apply/interview at very many spots because I already knew where I wanted to be for the next four years and I decided there was no point wasting my time or money! So, basically, my program is nowhere near the most prestigious program in the country; it's new, the hours are some of the longest in the country, it's four years, there's a lot of commuting, the academics aren't as strong as other programs I saw, and new york city is expensive; but i can't imagine myself anywhere else!
Honestly, I think this is something that we should take pride in! We don't have those preset ideas of what the top program in the country is. I don't HAVE to go live in Boston for 3 years because it's the BEST IM program in the country, even though I hate it and hate the people; instead I get to pick the place that works best for me, knowing that any of the program I go to will ensure I am trained well and that I will get a job. this is truly a huge blessing.
wow.. this is a terrible, roundabout post, but I just woke up, and I don't have the energy to clean it up. Sorry. I hope my point sort of gets across.
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Seriously... that's what I was thinking. There are bigger names than Wayne State University that consistently take FMG's as well... Yale and Emory comes to mind. And then there are programs that I'd prefer not to train at that don't take FMG's. I think the OP singled out the WSU programs because they took in a couple more this year than usual. Probably didn't affect things too much but both of the WSU programs also expanded their incoming class sizes.
Just want to echo what Sleepymed said, too. We're fortunate to be in a specialty where we can choose our programs based on how well we fit in and what we want instead of preconceived notions of prestige, rankings, and fellowship match rates.
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Also, please keep in mind that there are FMG's - non-US citizen med grads and IMG's - US citizen med grads - who, in many cases are non-traditional med students who chose to go into medicine later in life. I for one, had a BA, MA, MS and 15 years as a volunteer and paid paramedic. At the age of 39, I was not about to take the MCAT (I had taken it 10 years earlier so my scores were no longer valid and I knew there was no way I could relearn chemistry, physics and molecular biology) so I chose to go to an off-shore med school that did not require the MCAT for admission. IMG's do their basic sciences abroad and then the majority do their 3rd and 4th year rotations at US teaching hospitals. We take the same USMLE exams and have to meet the same standards for graduation. Most of us are very hard workers and have made tremendous personal and financial sacrifices to get ourselves through med school (many of us do not get federal student loans).
In retrospect, I should have taken the MCAT - even though it is not a very accurate measure of success in med school or performance in residency - and gone to a US med school. It would have saved me a lot of heartache and frustration. My decision to go to an off-shore medical school cost me the chance to get into EM so I did FM, proved my abilities and determination and finally made it into EM. I am forever grateful that the EM residency that accepted me - as a PGY-II - was able to look beyond the fact that I went to an off-shore med school and judged me on my personal attributes and professional and academic achievements.
For those IMG's out there who want a career in EM, don't give up. There are good programs who will give you a chance. For those IMG's still in basic sciences, make sure you do VERY well on Step 1 (above 220) since this will be a major factor in the ERAS screening process. Also, try to do your rotations - particularly EM and any acute care electives- at a major US teaching hospital. The SAEM site has a residency catalog in which the programs have contacts for setting up 4th year rotations. This is your chance to "audition" for a future residency position. Generally, if the program will not accept you as a student, chances are it won't accept you for residency either. Of course, there are exceptions, I did my 4th year EM rotation at a Midwestern university teaching hospital and did very well. They offered me an interview after my rotation during which the PD told me I did a great job but there was no way they were going to consider me for a residency position because of where I went to school. One of the faculty who interviewed me suggested that I "prove myself" by doing an IM or FM residency and then reapplying for EM. It was good advice: now I have a very strong foundation in medicine and I will be double-boarded in EM and FM so I feel confident that I will be well-prepared for a career in rural EM. I could have done without all the OBeekand clinic time sleep but - to quote the Rolling Stones: You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes you find, you get what you need.
Good luck to all next year.
In retrospect, I should have taken the MCAT - even though it is not a very accurate measure of success in med school or performance in residency - and gone to a US med school. It would have saved me a lot of heartache and frustration. My decision to go to an off-shore medical school cost me the chance to get into EM so I did FM, proved my abilities and determination and finally made it into EM. I am forever grateful that the EM residency that accepted me - as a PGY-II - was able to look beyond the fact that I went to an off-shore med school and judged me on my personal attributes and professional and academic achievements.
For those IMG's out there who want a career in EM, don't give up. There are good programs who will give you a chance. For those IMG's still in basic sciences, make sure you do VERY well on Step 1 (above 220) since this will be a major factor in the ERAS screening process. Also, try to do your rotations - particularly EM and any acute care electives- at a major US teaching hospital. The SAEM site has a residency catalog in which the programs have contacts for setting up 4th year rotations. This is your chance to "audition" for a future residency position. Generally, if the program will not accept you as a student, chances are it won't accept you for residency either. Of course, there are exceptions, I did my 4th year EM rotation at a Midwestern university teaching hospital and did very well. They offered me an interview after my rotation during which the PD told me I did a great job but there was no way they were going to consider me for a residency position because of where I went to school. One of the faculty who interviewed me suggested that I "prove myself" by doing an IM or FM residency and then reapplying for EM. It was good advice: now I have a very strong foundation in medicine and I will be double-boarded in EM and FM so I feel confident that I will be well-prepared for a career in rural EM. I could have done without all the OB
eekand clinic time sleep but - to quote the Rolling Stones: You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes you find, you get what you need. Good luck to all next year.
