WSJ: The $555,000 Student-Loan Burden

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FEBRUARY 13, 2010
The $555,000 Student-Loan Burden
As Default Rates on Borrowing for Higher Education Rise, Some Borrowers See No Way Out; 'This Is Just Outrageous Now'
By MARY PILON

When Michelle Bisutti, a 41-year-old family practitioner in Columbus, Ohio, finished medical school in 2003, her student-loan debt amounted to roughly $250,000. Since then, it has ballooned to $555,000.

It is the result of her deferring loan payments while she completed her residency, default charges and relentlessly compounding interest rates. Among the charges: a single $53,870 fee for when her loan was turned over to a collection agency.

"Maybe half of it was my fault because I didn't look at the fine print," Dr. Bisutti says. "But this is just outrageous now."

To be sure, Dr. Bisutti's case is extreme, and lenders say student-loan terms are clear and that they try to work with borrowers who get in trouble.

But as tuitions rise, many people are borrowing heavily to pay their bills. Some no doubt view it as "good debt," because an education can lead to a higher salary. But in practice, student loans are one of the most toxic debts, requiring extreme consumer caution and, as Dr. Bisutti learned, responsibility.

Unlike other kinds of debt, student loans can be particularly hard to wriggle out of. Homeowners who can't make their mortgage payments can hand over the keys to their house to their lender. Credit-card and even gambling debts can be discharged in bankruptcy. But ditching a student loan is virtually impossible, especially once a collection agency gets involved. Although lenders may trim payments, getting fees or principals waived seldom happens.

Yet many former students are trying. There is an estimated $730 billion in outstanding federal and private student-loan debt, says Mark Kantrowitz of FinAid.org, a Web site that tracks financial-aid issues—and only 40% of that debt is actively being repaid. The rest is in default, or in deferment, which means that payments and interest are halted, or in "forbearance," which means payments are halted while interest accrues.

Although Dr. Bisutti's debt load is unusual, her experience having problems repaying isn't. Emmanuel Tellez's mother is a laid-off factory worker, and $120 from her $300 unemployment checks is garnished to pay the federal PLUS student loan she took out for her son.

By the time Mr. Tellez graduated in 2008, he had $50,000 of his own debt in loans issued by SLM Corp., known as Sallie Mae, the largest private student lender. In December, he was laid off from his $29,000-a-year job in Boston and defaulted. Mr. Tellez says that when he signed up, the loan wasn't explained to him well, though he concedes he missed the fine print.

Loan terms, including interest rates, are disclosed "multiple times and in multiple ways," says Martha Holler, a spokeswoman for Sallie Mae, who says the company can't comment on individual accounts. Repayment tools and account information are accessible on Sallie Mae's Web site as well, she says.

Many borrowers say they are experiencing difficulties working out repayment and modification terms on their loans. Ms. Holler says that Sallie Mae works with borrowers individually to revamp loans. Although the U.S. Department of Education has expanded programs like income-based repayment, which effectively caps repayments for some borrowers, others might not qualify.

Heather Ehmke of Oakland, Calif., renegotiated the terms of her subprime mortgage after her home was foreclosed. But even after filing for bankruptcy, she says she couldn't get Sallie Mae, one of her lenders, to adjust the terms on her student loan. After 14 years with patches of deferment and forbearance, the loan has increased from $28,000 to more than $90,000. Her monthly payments jumped from $230 to $816. Last month, her petition for undue hardship on the loans was dismissed.

Sallie Mae supports reforms that would allow student loans to be dischargeable in bankruptcy for those who have made a good-faith effort to repay them, says Ms. Holler.

Dr. Bisutti says she loves her work, but regrets taking out so many student loans. She admits that she made mistakes in missing payments, deferring her loans and not being completely thorough with some of the paperwork, but was surprised at how quickly the debt spiraled.

She says she knew when she started medical school in 1999 that she would have to borrow heavily. But she reasoned that her future income as a doctor would make paying off the loans easy. While in school, her loans racked up interest with variable rates ranging from 3% to 11%.

She maxed out on federal loans, borrowing $152,000 over four years, and sought private loans from Sallie Mae to help make up the difference. She also took out two loans from Wells Fargo & Co. for $20,000 each. Each had a $2,000 origination fee. The total amount she borrowed at the time: $250,000.

In 2005, the bill for the Wells Fargo loans came due. Representatives from the bank called her father, Michael Bisutti, every day for two months demanding payment. Mr. Bisutti, who had co-signed on the loans, finally decided to cover the $550 monthly payments for a year.

Wells Fargo says it will stop calling consumers if they request it, says senior vice president Glen Herrick, who adds that the bank no longer imposes origination fees on its private loans.

Sallie Mae, meanwhile, called Mr. Bisutti's neighbor. The neighbor told Mr. Bisutti about the call. "Now they know [my dad's] daughter the doctor defaulted on her loans," Dr. Bisutti says.

Ms. Holler, the Sallie Mae spokeswoman, says that the company may contact a neighbor to verify an individual's address. But in those cases, she says, the details of the debt obligation aren't discussed.

Dr. Bisutti declined to authorize Sallie Mae to comment specifically on her case. "The overwhelming majority of medical-school graduates successfully repay their student loans," Ms. Holler says.

After completing her fellowship in 2007, Dr. Bisutti juggled other debts, including her credit-card balance, and was having trouble making her $1,000-a-month student-loan payments. That year, she defaulted on both her federal and private loans. That is when the "collection cost" fee of $53,870 was added on to her private loan.

Meanwhile, the variable interest rates continue to compound on her balance and fees. She recently applied for income-based repayment, but she still isn't sure if she will qualify. She makes $550-a-month payments to Wells Fargo for the two loans she hasn't defaulted on. By the time she is done, she will have paid the bank $128,000—over three times the $36,000 she received.

She recently entered a rehabilitation agreement on her defaulted federal loans, which now carry an additional $31,942 collection cost. She makes monthly payments on those loans—now $209,399—for $990 a month, with only $100 of it going toward her original balance. The entire balance of her federal loans will be paid off in 351 months. Dr. Bisutti will be 70 years old.

The debt load keeps her up at night. Her damaged credit has prevented her from buying a home or a new car. She says she and her boyfriend of three years have put off marriage and having children because of the debt.

Dr. Bisutti told her 17-year-old niece the story of her debt as a cautionary tale "so the next generation of kids who want to get a higher education knows what they're getting into," she says. "I will likely have to deal with this debt for the rest of my life."

Write to Mary Pilon at [email protected]

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Yah, I read that the other day too. She definitely screwed up on a few things, but it's still scary. The bottom line is don't borrow more than you can pay back and try to pay it back as fast as you can. What's really interesting is the fact that you can default on nearly all other loans, but student loans are stuck to you forever. I used to be haunted by this ghost who was mad that they were still calling him all the time asking for loan repayments. No way out!
 
Unfortunately, I don't really need a news story to tell me how bad student loans can get. I'm about $220k down now, so with 2 more years of school plus cost of living and 2 years of interest, that should be well into the $340k-350k range by the time I graduate. I'm currently thinking anesthesia, and since there's no way in hell I'll be able to make payments on debt like that making 40 grand a year, add 4 more years of 8% capitalized interest to that. That puts me down about $450k before I start practicing. Awesome!
 
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And my friends all wonder why I think its odd to plan out a vacation between M1 and M2 financed by loan money...
 
And my friends all wonder why I think its odd to plan out a vacation between M1 and M2 financed by loan money...

you must have excellent financial aid if you even have the option of doing this.

i come from a middle class family and am doing things entirely on loans, at my program we literally only get enough to feed and house ourselves.
 
capitalism is evil. this country is ******ed. set fire to everything and start over.
 
in anticipation of 'it was her fault' responses:


that it is permissable by law for a lender to double what you owe through fine print before other avenues are exhausted is comically evil.
 
Yah, I read that the other day too. She definitely screwed up on a few things, but it's still scary. The bottom line is don't borrow more than you can pay back and try to pay it back as fast as you can. What's really interesting is the fact that you can default on nearly all other loans, but student loans are stuck to you forever. I used to be haunted by this ghost who was mad that they were still calling him all the time asking for loan repayments. No way out!

I'm pretty sure thats what most people do. The problem is how much you borrow is determined by how much your need is whether you are comfortable with it or not. I cannot turn down my only med school acceptance just because i'll be out of state and that will cause me to owe $250k when its all done.
Its also hard to make payments on a residents salary especially if you have other responsibilities. The monthly payments on a med school loan are pretty large. Its often more than you pay in rent a month.
But i do agree that ultimately, its on her.
 
Wow, the doc in the article will have her loan debt paid off when she is 70 years old. Now that is really sad, really sad.
 
In case someone was wondering - her fellowship is in sports medicine and she went to a Caribbean School. Source
 
Although for those of us who just started, IBR is "supposed" address issues like this and limits us to 25 years of payments at 15% of gross above 150% poverty (and one big fat tax payment in the 25th year).
 
Although for those of us who just started, IBR is "supposed" address issues like this and limits us to 25 years of payments at 15% of gross above 150% poverty (and one big fat tax payment in the 25th year).

Another option is PSLF with IBR:
1) 3-5 years or more for residency
2) 2-3 years or more for fellowship
3) A few more years as an attending

Once the sum of all three above hits 10 years (120 payments), the remaining balance on your federal student loans is forgiven as long as the hospital you worked for is a not for profit/public hospital (which most of the places we do training are, not counting small community based training programs - just university based programs).
 
Another option is PSLF with IBR:
1) 3-5 years or more for residency
2) 2-3 years or more for fellowship
3) A few more years as an attending

Once the sum of all three above hits 10 years (120 payments), the remaining balance on your federal student loans is forgiven as long as the hospital you worked for is a not for profit/public hospital (which most of the places we do training are, not counting small community based training programs - just university based programs).

This is something I've talked with my FinAid office about. Apparently, the tax that people incur with the IBR is covered with this program, so you don't have to worry about a massive bill from the IRS when your loans are forgiven after 10 years. Definitely an intriguing option for those willing/wanting to stay in an academic setting.
 
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well I don't know...I think she is kind of hot!

looks great for 41!

:thumbup:

:sleep:
 
She said she has had to put off getting married and having kids.. She's 41 already.. I'm afraid without some expensive IVF.. She may not be havingkids at all.

I really don't understand how Americans can even afford to become doctors. That's crazy!!!

Your government should subsidise education better than that! That is just horrendous! It doesn't sound like the USA is the land of the opportunity that it used to be. Many countries don't even charge tuition for university... especially for doctors or other public servants.
 
Although for those of us who just started, IBR is "supposed" address issues like this and limits us to 25 years of payments at 15% of gross above 150% poverty (and one big fat tax payment in the 25th year).
Honestly, I wouldn't count on the 25 year thing. With one stroke of a pen, that "benefit" can disappear and you're stuck with a huge interest inflated debt.

We've seen just how much things have changed in a few years of student loans. You used to be able to consolidate for ~2% interest, now its locked at 6.8%.

You used to be able to get some decent incentives with lenders and they were competing for your business. Now you're lucky to get a .25% rate deduction after a solid payment history.
 
Wow, the doc in the article will have her loan debt paid off when she is 70 years old. Now that is really sad, really sad.

There's already an extensive discussion about this in the resident's forum

What she needs to do is become an adult, take responsibility for herself, work her tail off and lives like a grad student. If she does this, she could pay this bill off in 5-7 years.

Ed
 
There's already an extensive discussion about this in the resident's forum

What she needs to do is become an adult, take responsibility for herself, work her tail off and lives like a grad student. If she does this,
she could pay this bill off in 5-7 years.

Ed

but she'll be too old to have kids and get married.

50 g's penalty is still bs.

sorry, I side with her regardless of her level of responsibility, 100%. If it were a dude, I'd side with him too...maybe only 95% though.
 
There's already an extensive discussion about this in the resident's forum

What she needs to do is become an adult, take responsibility for herself, work her tail off and lives like a grad student. If she does this, she could pay this bill off in 5-7 years.

Ed

The US (and pretty much every other country) needs all the GPs they can get! They should 100% forgive her loans just for servicing a needy community as a GP!
 
But that's just it, there are plenty of programs that offer loan repayment in exchange for service in the primary care fields. She, however, decided to pursue a sports medicine fellowship instead.
 
But that's just it, there are plenty of programs that offer loan repayment in exchange for service in the primary care fields. She, however, decided to pursue a sports medicine fellowship instead.

Loan repayment programs or 100% loan forgiveness programs? There is a difference. If by loan repayment ... You mean working a low paying job with a 20-30k loan repayment bonus for every year of service.... It would still take her 20 years or more to pay off her debt. Which is why she prob chose a sports fellowship. most "loan repayment programs" I doubt are good enough to pay off those levels of debt. She'd probably be better off Financially (even including whatever loan repayment bonus they offer) and be better able to pay off her loan working in a nice suburb with her fellowship than going to an area of need. ...which is why she decided on that option I'm sure.

Either way.. She's screwd. The financing of the American education system sucks. If you are a German citizen you can get free education anywhere in the world up until the age of 30 for FREE!!!
 
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But that's just it, there are plenty of programs that offer loan repayment in exchange for service in the primary care fields. She, however, decided to pursue a sports medicine fellowship instead.

and good for her. she doesn't deserve 550000 debt. that's ******ed
 
and good for her. she doesn't deserve 550000 debt. that's ******ed

Considering that the vast majority of that $550K debt is because she defaulted on loans, was late with payments, and racked up a $50K charge so that a collection agency could take over her account, yes, she "deserves" $550K debt. Medical school IS too expensive, but she made it 100 times worse for herself. Plus, she's got credit card debt....THAT is completely unnecessary.
 
but she'll be too old to have kids and get married.

You may be surprised to hear this, but people can (and do) get married and have kids while living on less than doctors' salaries! It's totally crazy!

I mean, this girl and I got married, and we only earned about $40K combined! It was totally insane. We, like, could barely afford tanning leather to boil for dinner.

In all seriousness, though, we were still banking away $500-$1000 most months. So, while we didn't have a kid or kids, it's not like this doctor can't put $75K a year toward the loans and still pursue marriage and kids.

sorry, I side with her regardless of her level of responsibility, 100%. If it were a dude, I'd side with him too...maybe only 95% though.

Why the guy/girl difference? Irresponsibility is irresponsibility.
 
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Considering that the vast majority of that $550K debt is because she defaulted on loans, was late with payments, and racked up a $50K charge so that a collection agency could take over her account, yes, she "deserves" $550K debt. Medical school IS too expensive, but she made it 100 times worse for herself. Plus, she's got credit card debt....THAT is completely unnecessary.
no, actually she doesn't.

do you know her personally? do you know the true story? neither do I.

we're not talking some piddly cc debt here.

you're delusional if you think she is being treated fair. of course you probably voted for obama too

and you probably suffered from "mother teresa" syndrome at your interviews...maybe you still do

do you watch oprah reruns too?

:rolleyes: x 2 ( :rolleyes: :rolleyes: )

boo on you :thumbdown:

:D
 
You may be surprised to hear this, but people can (and do) get married and have kids while living on less than doctors' salaries! It's totally crazy!

Why the guy/girl difference? Irresponsibility is irresponsibility.

i am not the one who said about kids or marriage. i don't care if she can or can't and didn't say whether i thought it was possible or not.

shoot, having many kids can be profitable for some in our great american system.

gender difference was not serious...can't believe i have to explain this
 
do you know her personally? do you know the true story? neither do I.

It's funny that you accuse smq of jumping to conclusions when you said:

...I side with her regardless of her level of responsibility, 100%.

As for your response to me,

i am not the one who said about kids or marriage. i don't care if she can or can't and didn't say whether i thought it was possible or not.

This isn't true at all. In fact, I literally quoted your text where you mentioned kids and marriage. Here it is again:

What she needs to do is become an adult, take responsibility for herself, work her tail off and lives like a grad student. If she does this, she could pay this bill off in 5-7 years.

Ed
but she'll be too old to have kids and get married.

50 g's penalty is still bs.

sorry, I side with her regardless of her level of responsibility, 100%. If it were a dude, I'd side with him too...maybe only 95% though.

I even helped by bolding the part you highlighted of Ed's message. If you'd like to read your post, click on the arrow pointing to the right by your name.

shoot, having many kids can be profitable for some in our great american system.

That's neither here nor there, and is mostly a distractor to the conversation.

gender difference was not serious...can't believe i have to explain this

Dude, this is the Interweb. I can only read the words you type on the screen. If you're aiming for subtle humor, use an emoticon. :rolleyes:
 
Considering that the vast majority of that $550K debt is because she defaulted on loans, was late with payments, and racked up a $50K charge so that a collection agency could take over her account, yes, she "deserves" $550K debt. Medical school IS too expensive, but she made it 100 times worse for herself. Plus, she's got credit card debt....THAT is completely unnecessary.

None of it would have happened in the first place if America completly susidized education for it's citizens and refused to give banks that much power over students.
 
in anticipation of 'it was her fault' responses:


that it is permissable by law for a lender to double what you owe through fine print before other avenues are exhausted is comically evil.


I am pro-Capitalism, yet I have to agree with this statment about evil.

Banks are screwing just about everyone unconscionably. She may have her part in this, but it can happen to people more easily than they know.
And it doesn't excuse the greedy, screwball stuff that the banks do with interest.

We have to be honest about a lot of the banking corruption that has BEEN going on and continues to go on.

If we don't address the outlandish greed and nonsense, capitalism is doomed.

And then, I'm sorry to say, we are all screwed royally--except for the top cream--which always exists in any government system.
 
None of it would have happened in the first place if America completly susidized education for it's citizens and refused to give banks that much power over students.

And of course you already have a clear and thought out plan for how the government would be able to manage subsidizing medical education; including how to finance this plan, how the government would recoup its costs and the impact on healthcare overall because otherwise it would be rash to simply throw out a statement like that.

Let's admit it, how many of us actually read the MPN's that we signed at the beginning of medical school? I know that I didn't. But I'm also obsessive about staying on top of the status of my loans even though seeing the balance makes me dizzy every time. And I have the phone numbers for my lenders saved in my phone so any time I see any changes or have questions about my loans, I'm speaking to someone right away especially because I want to avoid a situation just like this one.
 
I don't think it was the lender than caused her loan to double. More likely once it landed in the hands of the collection agency they started to charge an exorbitant interest that's compounded on a daily basis.

What we're missing from the article is the steps that she took to avoid going into default. It says that she missed payments and had her father making payments for her, did she just shove all the mailings under the rug and hope it all works out? Or did she make a good faith effort to work with the lender and the lender would not compromise?
 
And of course you already have a clear and thought out plan for how the government would be able to manage subsidizing medical education; including how to finance this plan, how the government would recoup its costs and the impact on healthcare overall

why don't we ask Germany, Sweden, the united kingdom, Australia, Denmark, or any other 1st world nation in the world.. Cause they are able to do it. No country in the entire world (except the united states) expects it's students to take on such high levels of high interest uneraseable debt in order to obtain a medical degree. You live in such a society so you think it is the norm.. It is NOT the norm around the globe. American students are being taken for a ride and they don't even know it!

It's sad.. And I feel for you guys. It's just a shame your gov would rather spend your tax money on financing wars than it's citizens education. :(
 
While student loan debt is a huge concern, she is not a good poster child for it. Taking out private educational loans was mistake number 1.
Missing payments was mistake number 2 (though I'm sure mistake number 1 contributed to that considering the kinds of payments she had to have been making on the private loans during residency).
Burying her head in the sand and having her loans sent to collections was mistake number 3.
Seriously, considering that she's a physician if she had just called the bank they probably would have worked something out with her. The bank knows they'll get more money out of her if they have her paying back longer rather than having her tank on her loans. They know she has a stable income.
 
Either way.. She's screwd. The financing of the American education system sucks. If you are a German citizen you can get free education anywhere in the world up until the age of 30 for FREE!!!

And then you come here, do a year long fellowship and take Step 3 and have a license to print money. Yeah the US medical school system is pretty awesome.
 
And then you come here, do a year long fellowship and take Step 3 and have a license to print money. Yeah the US medical school system is pretty awesome.

Exactly.. Foreign medical graduates don't really have student debt to worry about. Not very fair... Is it? The US should be fully supporting it's own citizens through university and medical school like most all other 1st world countries.
 
Exactly.. Foreign medical graduates don't really have student debt to worry about. Not very fair... Is it? The US should be fully supporting it's own citizens through university and medical school like most all other 1st world countries.
I've read my fair share about the German medical system, and I can tell you right now I'd much rather work as a physician in America (even if I were stupid enough to get a $555,000 student-loan debt burden) than ever work as a physician in Germany.
 
I've read my fair share about the German medical system, and I can tell you right now I'd much rather work as a physician in America (even if I were stupid enough to get a $555,000 student-loan debt burden) than ever work as a physician in Germany.

Really? ... I disagree. I'd Much rather have a free education. Btw.. German med grads can work anywhere in the EU they want. ... As well as many other countries without too much difficulty.
 
I believe that the american doctor comes out ahead, but I haven't verified the exact salaries that the european doctors make.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if the American docs came out ahead - but I would still have to agree with Dr. M and say that I personally would rather have the free education. For me, lifestyle and absence of stress from worrying about student loans >>>>> income. Now, I do have my limits, however. I would be very happy with $100k/yr, and could even stomach $80-$90k/yr if it meant my loans could disappear. Much less than that though and I'd have to think twice, given that I was making $50k/yr prior to medical school, with the potential at the job to top out at ~$65k with a few more years experience.

The one thing I wonder about though - how much flexibility do MD's in European countries/Canada have in deciding what specialities they want to go into and where they want to practice? Any limitations there?
 
I wouldn't be surprised at all if the American docs came out ahead - but I would still have to agree with Dr. M and say that I personally would rather have the free education. For me, lifestyle and absence of stress from worrying about student loans >>>>> income. Now, I do have my limits, however. I would be very happy with $100k/yr, and could even stomach $80-$90k/yr if it meant my loans could disappear. Much less than that though and I'd have to think twice, given that I was making $50k/yr prior to medical school, with the potential at the job to top out at ~$65k with a few more years experience.

The one thing I wonder about though - how much flexibility do MD's in European countries/Canada have in deciding what specialities they want to go into and where they want to practice? Any limitations there?
Take 100k a year of your salary of an attending, live on that, and use the rest to pay back your loans.

Unless you're like the brilliant woman with the $555k loan burden, that would lead you to paying back your loans in less than a decade. Far less in most cases.

Back of the envelope calculation: a $200k salary (on the low end for a lot of specialties, on the high end for family practice) after federal taxes is ~$130-140k, versus a $100k salary after federal taxes is ~$70-80k. If you pay the $60-$70k difference directly to your loans, you'll pay off a loan burden of $350k at 6.8% in ~7 years. If you had a lower loan burden to begin with (like the *vast* majority of people exiting residency) or you were in a higher earning specialty than that (like a rather large portion of American MD graduates), you'd do it even faster. Of course, most physicians wouldn't want to spend that much to pay off their loans asap, but that's a personal choice. (State income tax throws another kink into the numbers, but the overall picture wouldn't change by more than a year or so)

As for the other question, I'm relatively certain that Canada has a similar system to the US for physicians, and the "European" system varies quite a bit from country to country. A lot of countries (like Germany above) have longer residencies (because of work hour restrictions), far worse pay for doctors out of residency, and because of a variety of social factors a (relatively) bad lifestyle for a lot of physicians in general.
 
Take 100k a year of your salary of an attending, live on that, and use the rest to pay back your loans.

I'm an MS3 and have done quite a few calculations for my situation, which I acknowledge is crappier than that of the average graduation MD. Once I add in interest I'll graduate with $270K, and am going into a specialty where the average starting salary is in the $150-$180k range. The reason I threw out the $100K figure is because I've seen that, assuming I make $150k coming out (what can I say, I'm a pessimist), I will be left with a $100K salary for 10 years while I pay off my loans. So I am entirely aware that over the course of my career, I would do better financially to make $150K and have my loans to pay off than to just make $100K with no loans. In the end, it comes down to the emotional component for me - I had no idea how debt-averse I was until I took on this huge debt for my education. Now I feel completely trapped by it - very much the indentured servant.
 
This is outrageous, i just can't believe this, how on earth could anybody justify this? how could you justify chasing around people, calling their neighbours and their next of kin for something that is their right? it is a right to have a university degree. I pay about 500 USD a year for tuition and the government pays me about 2k a year for books, living expenses are also covered by a combination of subsidies and weekend jobs, and at the end of every week i save about 100 USD, i save about a thousand a year on books by buying second hand books, i also save about 2k in the summer, i will use some of the money to pay for an american elective next year and by the time i graduate i will have about 10k in my bank account to buy a car, i think you should put some pressure on your government, THIS IS CRAZY. Medical students are people willing to sacrifice years of their lives to better humanity's collective wellbeing, i can not imagine a government that wouldn't appreciate that.
 
A university degree is a "right"? Please don't support the entitlement philosophy; I read in the BBC recently about the internet being a "right" also.

I'll take the loan debt and the higher salaries instead of no debt and low salary; crunch the numbers and see how its better. Now the emotional aspect of debt....that's different.

I don't know where you're getting the idea that those countries don't pay doctors well. In Australia med school is almost free, residents get paid at least 1.5-2 times what they do in the states... And attendings/consultants get paid pretty much the same.
 
She elected to commit financial suicide. The loan terms are in black and white. She is no better than the nitwits who got ARMs on their overpriced houses and expected that the price would always rise. She should have thought about the debt she was about to incur, she didn't. I feel no pity for someone who makes stupid decisions about their financial future.
 
She elected to commit financial suicide. The loan terms are in black and white. She is no better than the nitwits who got ARMs on their overpriced houses and expected that the price would always rise. She should have thought about the debt she was about to incur, she didn't. I feel no pity for someone who makes stupid decisions about their financial future.

don't be such a d-bag

you'd be singing a different tune if you found yourself in her position.

there is no reason why any penalty should be as severe as they were for her
 
don't be such a d-bag

you'd be singing a different tune if you found yourself in her position.

there is no reason why any penalty should be as severe as they were for her

Well I won't be in her position due to intelligent financial planning. There are no "penalties" she should have read the contract and if she didn't like the terms one lender offered go somewhere else. However, that doesn't excuse stupidity. She paid the price for making horrible decisions.
 
A university degree is a "right"? Please don't support the entitlement philosophy; I read in the BBC recently about the internet being a "right" also.

I'll take the loan debt and the higher salaries instead of no debt and low salary; crunch the numbers and see how its better. Now the emotional aspect of debt....that's different.


Yeah this might be a shocker to you in america but i am actually a social democrat, and guess what i believe in entitlements for citizens who contribute their fair share. Paying about 40%taxes means school and university are subsidized, healthcare too.

As far as salary is concerned i do not think there is a big difference between america and western europe if you factor in lifestyle; being a doctor is a 9-5 job here, unless you run your own practice and want to see more patients. At your peak you can earn about 10k/month after taxes that is, about 40hours a week, even a neurosurgeon works 40hours a week. compare that to 100hours a week in america. The only underpaid doctors here are family doctors who are starting out, they earn about 3k a month but once they build up a client base, they can earn as much as 20k depending on their business acumen.

Yeah, internet is a human right in sweden lol i love the idea, parliament passed the law late last year if i am not mistaken, private internet companies went to court because hooking up sparsely populated far flung villages with high speed internet would cost them millions. The governments position was, it makes communication easy, the country is very cold in the winter, internet is the only means to shop or pay the bills for those who live in the countryside.
 
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