Would you go to medical school if you had to choose again?

[maxbaner]

I wonder if any of them are still on here and wonder if their thoughts have changed or stayed the same

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[docB]

I wonder if any of them are still on here and wonder if their thoughts have changed or stayed the same

It would be interesting to see this poll broken down by where people are in their careers. I imagine that it would show that as docs get older fewer and fewer would do it again. If I were in my twenties again maybe, but if I just suddenly was told I had to do it over now, no way. It's also tough because I?m just starting my career and still have a ton of debt while my college classmates are five or ten years in and doing well.

Pretty much the same. I'm no longer in debt and I'm no longer that early in my career but I wouldn't do it over. Medicine is not a terrible place to be compared to other careers but the amount of sacrifice and debt is more than the career is worth.

 

[medicinesux]

Repeat this poll today and I think the percent saying yes would be lower. Maybe 50% if that. Of those 50% saying yes, half are in utter denial. I venture to guess that 25% overall would truly say yes to this question and mean it. A freakish 5-10% would genuinely LOVE to get up and go to work everyday.
Five years ago SDN was comprised mostly of naive premeds and med students. Now with a greater percentage of SDNers being residents and attendings, who have gone through "combat", it would be interesting to repeat this poll. This goes to say nothing about how the current American healthcare system continues to circle down the drain.

 

[billydoc]

Repeat this poll today and I think the percent saying yes would be lower. Maybe 50% if that. Of those 50% saying yes, half are in utter denial. I venture to guess that 25% overall would truly say yes to this question and mean it. A freakish 5-10% would genuinely LOVE to get up and go to work everyday.
Five years ago SDN was comprised mostly of naive premeds and med students. Now with a greater percentage of SDNers being residents and attendings, who have gone through "combat", it would be interesting to repeat this poll. This goes to say nothing about how the current American healthcare system continues to circle down the drain.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=195799


Here's a bit younger thread, albeit locked one. I think there was a "part 2" to it as well. But the # of "No's" is absolutely mind buggling. I really thank you guys, those who have actually done it, and took time to post. Hope all is well for ya'al

 

[maxbaner]

is that an old poll up above?

 

[DrDre311]

I'd still have gone, but I think I'd take another year to finish college, and maybe another year to have fun and be even more worthless.

 

[Leukocyte]

One thing that must be stressed is that "Medicine" is not a single career. It is a general term that includes a number of VERY different careers. Family Medicine is not like General Surgery. And General Surgery is not like Radiology.

Yes, you will be very unhappy if you do not like clinical medicine, and end up in FM. You will be very unhappy if you like surgery and end up in EM or IM. That is why I am very unhappy as a FM resident. I like the OR and surgical procedures, and care less about the clinic, OB, peds, IM..... That is why I WILL be doing a second residency after my FM "nightmare" is over. I will NEVER practice FM after residency, NEVER.

Moral of the story...Medicine consists of VERY differrent "jobs". Each is very unique. Find your niche, and work hard to get it.

 

[docB]

One thing that must be stressed is that "Medicine" is not a single career. It is a general term that includes a number of VERY different careers. Family Medicine is not like General Surgery. And General Surgery is not like Radiology.

Yes, you will be very unhappy if you do not like clinical medicine, and end up in FM. You will be very unhappy if you like surgery and end up in EM or IM. That is why I am very unhappy as a FM resident. I like the OR and surgical procedures, and care less about the clinic, OB, peds, IM..... That is why I WILL be doing a second residency after my FM "nightmare" is over. I will NEVER practice FM after residency, NEVER.

Moral of the story...Medicine consists of VERY differrent "jobs". Each is very unique. Find your niche, and work hard to get it.

I see your point but I would argue that the things that make medicine miserable are actually quite similar across the field regardless of one's specialty.

The med mal crisis, decreasing reimbursements, increasing hurdles to get those reimbursements, the uninsured and EMTALA mandates, the increasing pressures to get patients out of the hospital fast or turn inpatient procedures into outpatient procedures altogether, and so on. All of these things reach across the spectrum and affect everyone.

 

[Doowai]

mmm

 

[radslooking]

It is too much sacrifice. I want to help people, blah blaah blah - but would not do this again and cannot see doing anything beyond PGY 1. If I was single and in my twenties with no other career options yes. For me - HUGE MISTAKE.

6 years ago I was making decent money and no debt other than my house. Now I have big debt, 46, my wife and kids are 1400 miles way - yesterday I missed getting to watch my oldest son win a regional swim tournament and until this year I have never missed a sporting event of his in 14 years, I miss holding my 6 year old, I have not slept in a bed in 5 weeks - cannot afford one and I sleep in the floor - in fact my only furniture to date is a pillow, i live on less than $800 a month as I send the rest home, I worked maybe 25 hours a week 5 - 10-15-20 years ago and now a 60 hour week is a short weeks. It is so boring - yesterday I went toa lecture in eastern Indian music and there was this Indian dad with his son and they were wearing matching outfits - I ws very sad to think of my 6 year old.

I am 5 weeks in and I now know this is in my top major mistakes of all time - and also in the list is the time when I was 16 years old I flew about 100 yards through the air in a VW going way too fast, flipping it end over end and putting my head through the windshield.

holy s hit i think im going to go jump off a bridge now

 

[billydoc]

It is too much sacrifice. I want to help people, blah blaah blah - but would not do this again and cannot see doing anything beyond PGY 1. If I was single and in my twenties with no other career options yes. For me - HUGE MISTAKE.

6 years ago I was making decent money and no debt other than my house. Now I have big debt, 46, my wife and kids are 1400 miles way - yesterday I missed getting to watch my oldest son win a regional swim tournament and until this year I have never missed a sporting event of his in 14 years, I miss holding my 6 year old, I have not slept in a bed in 5 weeks - cannot afford one and I sleep in the floor - in fact my only furniture to date is a pillow, i live on less than $800 a month as I send the rest home, I worked maybe 25 hours a week 5 - 10-15-20 years ago and now a 60 hour week is a short weeks. It is so boring - yesterday I went toa lecture in eastern Indian music and there was this Indian dad with his son and they were wearing matching outfits - I ws very sad to think of my 6 year old.

I am 5 weeks in and I now know this is in my top major mistakes of all time - and also in the list is the time when I was 16 years old I flew about 100 yards through the air in a VW going way too fast, flipping it end over end and putting my head through the windshield.

Hey man! Hang in there. I really feel for you and your family. This post hits really close to home for me, although I'm not yet near residemncy, and after giving it more careful thought I may never be there. It's not a defeatest talk, just realistic approach. I was attending Carib school 1700 miles SE of NYC. It did a number on me....not seing my wife and my dtr for some time. I could only immagine what you're going through. It's rough man. But I wonder if your family was with you now do you think you'd have the same outlook on your career move in medicine?

Best of Luck

 

[uclabruins47]

to answer this aged question, NO.

 

[billydoc]

to answer this aged question, NO.

Care to elaborate Why?

Tnx

 

[uclabruins47]

Care to elaborate Why?

Tnx

for starters,

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=521095

and i didn't base my answer solely on some article; it simply confirmed my convictions.

 

[Doowai]

llll

 

[billydoc]

for starters,

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=521095

and i didn't base my answer solely on some article; it simply confirmed my convictions.

I've read it before. Nothing really new in it. Are you out of residency and practicing? Usually things do get better in life after the hell of residency, and the answer to OP question could change as well (?)

Thanks for answering

 

[uclabruins47]

I've read it before. Nothing really new in it. Are you out of residency and practicing? Usually things do get better in life after the hell of residency, and the answer to OP question could change as well (?)

Thanks for answering

I am in residency. Right, the article isn't all that new.

What IS new is the elimination of the 20/220 rule for upcoming new residents starting 2009. Perhaps you've heard about that as well; if not,

http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/category/18024.html

Now, you may be able to get away with this if you are living at home. if you are renting, your monthly net income - expenses may even be in the negative territory; and if you have family or kids or own a house....

if you have a solution or if you have another point of view on this issue, let me know, i'd be interested.

 

[maxbaner]

So those of you in residency now, with the change in the 20/220 rule how would that affect future residents based on your experience?

 

[uclabruins47]

So those of you in residency now, with the change in the 20/220 rule how would that affect future residents based on your experience?

dunno. my fellow residents who rent apts are either cutting it even on a monthly basis or even may go negative. this is without paying back any loans and with very scrupulous and cautious spending. when they are required to pay additional loans... i just dont know.

let's just do some simple math:
Net pay a month ~$2500 for singles, $3000 for married

$2500
-1200 (reasonable rent in LA for studio or one bed)
-60 (gas, based off of avg 15 mile/d driving @ 30 mpg @ $4.5/gal for 25 d)
-50 (cell, get you around 400-500 min)
-100 (electricity, utilities -- can be higher if you crank up that AC)
-200 (basic nutrition -- excluding daily ramen)

the difference is $890. That means every month you basically start with 890.

- ?? Parking
- ?? Books
- ?? Journal subscriptions
- ?? Take a vacation when you can

according to

http://www.ama-assn.org/ama1/pub/upload/mm/15/20_220_presentation.pdf

"Without the 20/220 pathway, monthly loan payments will be: $1,503"

Of course, you can then apply for forbearance... but that's not something you'd do until you eat up all of your economic deferment allowances, and it's like saying "please jack up my interest rates so that I can never pay back my loans."

 

[dragonfly99]

guys,
I worked on this 20/220 issue for the AMA
that flyer is a little bit of hyperbole
if they took away the 20/220 pathway AND didn't replace it with anything, someone could be paying thousands/month in student loans

The government plan is going to replace the 20/220 pathway with another/new plan,which will include an economic hardship plan where the former student will have to pay some money toward student loans, but it will be capped at a percentage of your income. I think it's 15% or something. So in the example above, if someone makes $3500/month they might pay $500/month or something. Also, what you do when you graduate is you change your 10 year loan to a 30 year one. For example, I converted my 133k loan to a 30 year one, so that the payment would be $540/month for 30 years instead of $1300/month for 10 years.

There is another thread on the 20/220 pathway. Read that for more comments/input. I recently finished medicine residency and am paying off my loans, plus I worked on this issue for the AMA resident/fellow section, so if anyone has questions about the 20/220 pathway, etc. just PM me and I'll try and help. Also, your medical school financial aid office, if they are any good, should be able to explain this to you.

Oh, my answer to the "would you do it again" question is yes, but I managed to get myself in to a medicine fellowship. If I had to do primary care, I'm not sure...but I still have to say medicine is better than a lot of other careers in this crappy economy. A hospitalist makes about $150k and even a research fellow makes a resident salary...and after you have done a couple years of residency you can moonlight for $50-100/hour. The students I worry about are really those with the $250k debt, not the $100-150k debt. Still, there are ways to pay the debt. Military is one, and working in underserved area for 3-4 years is another.

 

[dragonfly99]

Also, most all student loan companies would let you "defer" your loans for several months if you want. For example, if you just give them a reasonable reason ("unexpected medical expenses, etc.) and ask for a deferment for 6 months or so, they will give it to you. Plus, you get a grace period of 6 months after you graduate, where you don't have to pay your loans if you don't want to. You should really try and pay at least the interest, though, if you can.

 

[BobA]

I REALLY miss working outside with my hands. (I dislike the OR - no windows!).

I should have been a solar electrician or a plumber. Seriously.

 

[2006MD]

Yes...but would have done the accelerated 1 year MBA while it was offered in medical school to have more options once I'm done w/residency.

 

[BobA]

There is no way I would do this over again.

I'm a little older and had to give up a pretty good established life to take on all this debt and go to medical school. I didn't realize how good I had it back then.

Of course, I might feel differently once I'm earning a paycheck and making some headway on my financial future.

 

[BlondeDocteur]

Yes. In a heartbeat. I'm only an MS4, but I'm very happy to be in the hospital. Every day of third year, no matter the rotation cough: ortho/ob-gyn :cough: ) I was pretty down with being there.

 

[YOOOUK09]

Currently an MS4, but I wouldn't do it over again. Moving far from family and friends, taking on 250K of debt.

I didn't really know what paying back that debt would be like - but it's scary. Any pre-meds or pre-pre-meds reading this do some math on what you'll think you'll earn and what your debt payment will be like.

I can think of a lot of things I'd rather be doing.

 

[Doowai]

Currently an MS4, but I wouldn't do it over again. Moving far from family and friends, taking on 250K of debt.

I didn't really know what paying back that debt would be like - but it's scary. .

Its like Pirates of the Caribbean 2 where the people choose to slave on Davie Joneses ship instead of die -

 

[CuriousKat]

Repeat this poll today and I think the percent saying yes would be lower. Maybe 50% if that. Of those 50% saying yes, half are in utter denial. I venture to guess that 25% overall would truly say yes to this question and mean it. A freakish 5-10% would genuinely LOVE to get up and go to work everyday.
Five years ago SDN was comprised mostly of naive premeds and med students. Now with a greater percentage of SDNers being residents and attendings, who have gone through "combat", it would be interesting to repeat this poll. This goes to say nothing about how the current American healthcare system continues to circle down the drain.

This is pretty accurate based on my social network of other residents, attendings, and med students.

 

[tr]

I would definitely do med school again. It wasn't that hard and most of it was actually fun, and I found a specialty I really love.

What I would skip would be the #@!!$! PhD. What a waste of time that was. If I had it to do over again I'd eat the debt instead, and just do a research year or something.

 

[mercaptovizadeh]

I would definitely do med school again. It wasn't that hard and most of it was actually fun, and I found a specialty I really love.

What I would skip would be the #@!!$! PhD. What a waste of time that was. If I had it to do over again I'd eat the debt instead, and just do a research year or something.

Since you hated the #@!!$! PhD so much, how did you pull through it? And, if you want to do research in the future, why would it be a waste of time?

I didn't think you were in the Neuronix cult - more like a Vader type.

 

[Pembleton]

Would I do it over again? Probably... or not.

I don't honestly know. When I think of the debt I'm accumulating, I think medical school was an awful decision. When I think of the things that I used to enjoy that I can't find time to do, I think medical school was an awful decision. When I reflect on future sacrifices that I'll be forced to make, I think that going to medical school was a sucker decision.

However, there are times when I enjoy the challenge of learning about such and such disease or drug. There are times when I realize that the struggle of medical school is worthwhile. There are times like today where I get exposed to something unique and private and wonderful, and I feel like a career having that kind of involvement in people's lives must be exhilarating. I've been outside in the corporate world. While I didn't have a fancy or exciting job, I had a life (which is what med school has somewhat deprived me of). But I've also been downsized and forced to take unemployment benefits. I've lived through the uncertainties of the corporate world and I look forward to the relative stability of being a physician.

The one thing I positively do regret though, speaking as a non-trad who started school at the age of 32, is that I wish I had started school at least five years earlier as a single person. Being older and married hasn't made school easier, as I thought it would. Instead it has been a drain on our marriage and has made me feel how precious the time I spend studying really is and how it could possibly be better spent.

 

[Leukocyte]

Every single breathing second of my current hell of a life reminds me of the black day I decided to go to medical school. I am half-way through a "very clinical" residency program, and I am very depressed. I am doing my work just fine, but I am doing it not because I like it. I am doing it ONLY because I HAVE TO. I am $250,000 in debt, and there is no REAL, PRACTICAL, alternative at this time. My plan out of this hell of a jam is to just suck-it-up,take it up the a@@ like a man, and finish the 1 and half year left in residency. After that I will not set foot in a hospital, clinic, or lay eye on a patient EVER AGAIN. EVER!!!. At first I thought it is only a problem in my specialty, and thought that by changing specialties I would be ok....but as I dug deeper, and really got to know medicine, the things that make me puke are characteristics of ALL patient oriented medicine or surgery.

If I had a practical way out, I will take it....Until then I am "clinical medicine's bitch", entraping my soul, smothering and violating me each and every way it pleases.

 

[mig26x]

I would go back and pay more attention in class!!!

and, I wouldnt borrow the maximum allowed for loans!! 230K and its pretty scary.

 

[natrides]

This has been very interesting, as I am about to start med school and I'm in my late 30s. Seems like the money issue is HUGE. And since my med school money all vanished in the stock market crash, I will have some debt, but not $200k bad. I am now thanking the stars for cheaper in-state tuition! My partner should read this. She hates her job by the way- and makes $45k. But she couldn't get work for 6 months as a software engineer, so we took the crap job so we could eat and stuff. My friend with an EE and a new baby just got laid off. My other budy lost his business and is about to lose his house.

So while I have no doubt I'll spend some time wondering what the hell I was thinking, I hope to remember that every job sucks in some way, and not having one at all sucks more.

 

[dalovers]

read the terminating resident thread and then make your decision.

 

[Doowai]

Being older and married hasn't made school easier, as I thought it would. Instead it has been a drain on our marriage and has made me feel how precious the time I spend studying really is and how it could possibly be better spent.

Man I hear ya. I am dreading match day again - and knowing the crap is on again. I have loved having this year to go to sports events, plays etc. Its been like a paid vacation to work even though the money is not great

 

[YOOOUK09]

Every single breathing second of my current hell of a life reminds me of the black day I decided to go to medical school. I am half-way through a "very clinical" residency program, and I am very depressed. I am doing my work just fine, but I am doing it not because I like it. I am doing it ONLY because I HAVE TO. I am $250,000 in debt, and there is no REAL, PRACTICAL, alternative at this time. My plan out of this hell of a jam is to just suck-it-up,take it up the a@@ like a man, and finish the 1 and half year left in residency. After that I will not set foot in a hospital, clinic, or lay eye on a patient EVER AGAIN. EVER!!!. At first I thought it is only a problem in my specialty, and thought that by changing specialties I would be ok....but as I dug deeper, and really got to know medicine, the things that make me puke are characteristics of ALL patient oriented medicine or surgery.

If I had a practical way out, I will take it....Until then I am "clinical medicine's bitch", entraping my soul, smothering and violating me each and every way it pleases.

Leukocyte, for the 30-40% who would not repeat med school, what will you be doing when you finish residency?

 

[HappyChair2000]

I would not.

I still remember when I applied, right after college. At that point, I thought the world was my oyster. I graduated from a Ivy school with great grades and some really good extracurriculars. Not to sound like too big of a douche, but I had some options. I loved theoretical physics and wanted to be a string theorist. I also loved politics and strongly considered law school as well. I was courted by hedge funds for my mathematical aptitude.

But I thought, you know what, life as an academic seems miserable. Only a few of the top grad students actually get tenure track positions and even then its a bare-knuckle fight to make it. I didn't think I'd like the nitty-gritty of law, and finance seemed hollow.

I never really had that great an idea of what a doctor did, but I wanted to be the guy in being heroic and saving lives. I liked science, and the end result would be a secure job with a darn decent, if not finance level, income while making a huge impact on the lives of others. I investigated in further, did a lot of shadowing and thought, "Hey, this looks damn cool."

I got into a top tier med school, and it all went down hill from there. The first two years were brutally hard, harder than anything I had experienced before, even in the hardest of undergrad sciences (quantum chromodynamics included), or had even imagined. The 8 hours of lecture and hours of studying at night devastated any semblance I had of a life. Third year was even worse. 80-100 weeks on all the major rotations. Was treated like **** by everyone. During this year, a happy long term relationship I was in broke off. I haven't been in another one since. And guess what, turns out I really didn't like clinical medicine. More paperwork than I ever dreamed of, constantly angry coworkers, ungrateful, uncompliant patients, and, perhaps most of all, a complete loss of personal autonomy.

At that point though, I was $170,000 in debt and didn't have much choice but to power through residency at least. I decided on a clinical residency hoping things would get better. They just got worse. Now I'm stuck alone in an incredibly intense job I hate that takes up every waking moment of the day. I've sacrificed relationships and am thousands of miles away from friends and family for the "dream" of being a doctor. But that's okay, I make $8 an hour and am hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt which makes up for it. That old office space saying now applies to me, "Every day is worse than the last so every day you see me is the worst day of my life."

Meanwhile, friends from college who decided on academia are landing those tenure track positions, finance folks are millionaires, and folks in politics are getting good positions in the current administration. They all have free time, hobbies, and are starting families.

Heed my warnings. Unless you REALLY, REALLY want to and dream of being a doctor, don't do it. About 10% of folks I run into fall into this category and actually seem happy in their job. The rest just seem trapped into the job because of two reasons. 1) Debt (early in the career) and 2) they've spent so much time training that they're too old to start in an entry level post in another field (later in the career). Otherwise, although it may seem like a logical decision, it's just not worth the sacrifices.

As for me, I'm thinking of retraining in path or rads or something. It's not really why I went to med school, but I just can't take this **** anymore.

 

[bigpharmD]

I would not.

I still remember when I applied, right after college. At that point, I thought the world was my oyster. I graduated from a Ivy school with great grades and some really good extracurriculars. Not to sound like too big of a douche, but I had some options. I loved theoretical physics and wanted to be a string theorist. I also loved politics and strongly considered law school as well. I was courted by hedge funds for my mathematical aptitude.

But I thought, you know what, life as an academic seems miserable. Only a few of the top grad students actually get tenure track positions and even then its a bare-knuckle fight to make it. I didn't think I'd like the nitty-gritty of law, and finance seemed hollow.

I never really had that great an idea of what a doctor did, but I wanted to be the guy in being heroic and saving lives. I liked science, and the end result would be a secure job with a darn decent, if not finance level, income while making a huge impact on the lives of others. I investigated in further, did a lot of shadowing and thought, "Hey, this looks damn cool."

I got into a top tier med school, and it all went down hill from there. The first two years were brutally hard, harder than anything I had experienced before, even in the hardest of undergrad sciences (quantum chromodynamics included), or had even imagined. The 8 hours of lecture and hours of studying at night devastated any semblance I had of a life. Third year was even worse. 80-100 weeks on all the major rotations. Was treated like **** by everyone. During this year, a happy long term relationship I was in broke off. I haven't been in another one since. And guess what, turns out I really didn't like clinical medicine. More paperwork than I ever dreamed of, constantly angry coworkers, ungrateful, uncompliant patients, and, perhaps most of all, a complete loss of personal autonomy.

At that point though, I was $170,000 in debt and didn't have much choice but to power through residency at least. I decided on a clinical residency hoping things would get better. They just got worse. Now I'm stuck alone in an incredibly intense job I hate that takes up every waking moment of the day. I've sacrificed relationships and am thousands of miles away from friends and family for the "dream" of being a doctor. But that's okay, I make $8 an hour and am hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt which makes up for it. That old office space saying now applies to me, "Every day is worse than the last so every day you see me is the worst day of my life."

Meanwhile, friends from college who decided on academia are landing those tenure track positions, finance folks are millionaires, and folks in politics are getting good positions in the current administration. They all have free time, hobbies, and are starting families.

Heed my warnings. Unless you REALLY, REALLY want to and dream of being a doctor, don't do it. About 10% of folks I run into fall into this category and actually seem happy in their job. The rest just seem trapped into the job because of two reasons. 1) Debt (early in the career) and 2) they've spent so much time training that they're too old to start in an entry level post in another field (later in the career). Otherwise, although it may seem like a logical decision, it's just not worth the sacrifices.

As for me, I'm thinking of retraining in path or rads or something. It's not really why I went to med school, but I just can't take this **** anymore.

great post...as someone thinking of going back i appreciate the honesty...have you thought of a research fellowship (translational research) or a medical informatics fellowship...sounds like you might be happy doing this type of work..good luck

 

[CuriousKat]

I would not.

I still remember when I applied, right after college. At that point, I thought the world was my oyster. I graduated from a Ivy school with great grades and some really good extracurriculars. Not to sound like too big of a douche, but I had some options. I loved theoretical physics and wanted to be a string theorist. I also loved politics and strongly considered law school as well. I was courted by hedge funds for my mathematical aptitude.

But I thought, you know what, life as an academic seems miserable. Only a few of the top grad students actually get tenure track positions and even then its a bare-knuckle fight to make it. I didn't think I'd like the nitty-gritty of law, and finance seemed hollow.

I never really had that great an idea of what a doctor did, but I wanted to be the guy in being heroic and saving lives. I liked science, and the end result would be a secure job with a darn decent, if not finance level, income while making a huge impact on the lives of others. I investigated in further, did a lot of shadowing and thought, "Hey, this looks damn cool."

I got into a top tier med school, and it all went down hill from there. The first two years were brutally hard, harder than anything I had experienced before, even in the hardest of undergrad sciences (quantum chromodynamics included), or had even imagined. The 8 hours of lecture and hours of studying at night devastated any semblance I had of a life. Third year was even worse. 80-100 weeks on all the major rotations. Was treated like **** by everyone. During this year, a happy long term relationship I was in broke off. I haven't been in another one since. And guess what, turns out I really didn't like clinical medicine. More paperwork than I ever dreamed of, constantly angry coworkers, ungrateful, uncompliant patients, and, perhaps most of all, a complete loss of personal autonomy.

At that point though, I was $170,000 in debt and didn't have much choice but to power through residency at least. I decided on a clinical residency hoping things would get better. They just got worse. Now I'm stuck alone in an incredibly intense job I hate that takes up every waking moment of the day. I've sacrificed relationships and am thousands of miles away from friends and family for the "dream" of being a doctor. But that's okay, I make $8 an hour and am hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt which makes up for it. That old office space saying now applies to me, "Every day is worse than the last so every day you see me is the worst day of my life."

Meanwhile, friends from college who decided on academia are landing those tenure track positions, finance folks are millionaires, and folks in politics are getting good positions in the current administration. They all have free time, hobbies, and are starting families.

Heed my warnings. Unless you REALLY, REALLY want to and dream of being a doctor, don't do it. About 10% of folks I run into fall into this category and actually seem happy in their job. The rest just seem trapped into the job because of two reasons. 1) Debt (early in the career) and 2) they've spent so much time training that they're too old to start in an entry level post in another field (later in the career). Otherwise, although it may seem like a logical decision, it's just not worth the sacrifices.

As for me, I'm thinking of retraining in path or rads or something. It's not really why I went to med school, but I just can't take this **** anymore.

Amen

 

[dragonfly99]

Good post by happychair,
although I think he/she kind of hung the black crepe a little more than I would do. I actually am still happy overall that I did medicine (or at least that's what I tell myself...LOL!). The medical education/student loan debt issue is not minor though, and seems to be getting worse for the current grads.

Happychair, sorry about your relationship. Yeah, 3rd year really sucks a--. So does internship, actually. But you're probably an XY, so the ladies will probably be throwing themselves at you pretty soon (as soon as you actually have time to go find them), since beig one of those "rich doctors" makes you a good catch.

It sounds like happychair might be smack in the middle of a residency like IM (lots of paperwork, some ungrateful patients and not great hours). Things do get better

 

[sirus_virus]

If medical school did not cost so much, people would not be complaining this bad. Debt is the underground stressor for most people.So before we fix the healthcare system we must expose the criminals operating from within the medical community. Yes, those people selling MD/DO degrees for hundreds of thousands of dollars, knowing very well that crap is only good for wiping your [expletive] when you are done. IMO, a newly minted MD is nothing but a titled fraud victim. So would a victim of fraud/abuse go back to their abuser? Yes, for the same reason Rihanna is back with Chris Brown.

 

[HappyChair2000]

Good post by happychair,
although I think he/she kind of hung the black crepe a little more than I would do. I actually am still happy overall that I did medicine (or at least that's what I tell myself...LOL!). The medical education/student loan debt issue is not minor though, and seems to be getting worse for the current grads.

Happychair, sorry about your relationship. Yeah, 3rd year really sucks a--. So does internship, actually. But you're probably an XY, so the ladies will probably be throwing themselves at you pretty soon (as soon as you actually have time to go find them), since beig one of those "rich doctors" makes you a good catch.

It sounds like happychair might be smack in the middle of a residency like IM (lots of paperwork, some ungrateful patients and not great hours). Things do get better

Nothing personal dragonfly as I'm sure you're a very nice person and just trying to help (much more than can be said of most people on online message boards), but I'm really getting tired of people telling me it will get better. In first year of med school, they said it would get better. In third year, it was supposed to be better than second. Internship was meant to be bad, but at least better in some ways then med school, and residency better than internship. It's just gotten worse. And the attendings I work with seem as miserable as residents. You know, actually that's a little unfair. I think about 50% of people really hate their jobs. About 40% tolerate it, and 10% are actually happy with their work. I'm just in the 50.

I think the issue with medicine is that by the time you actually get to see what it is like in the third year of med school (the bureaucracy, the futile profit-centric care, the toxic work environment), you're trapped into the field for at least another 7-8 years (2 more years of med school, 3 years minimum of residency, and 2-3 years to pay back loans). I can think of no other area of human endeavor where this is the case. Hate finance? Quit. Hate law? Spend a two years paying off loans and do something else. Hate grad school? Drop out with a masters and do something else. Hell, if you go to a military academy, you only have a 4 year commitment.

By the time you're done with medical training, you're in your early 30s and qualified for only 1 job, too old really for entry level jobs in most other desirable fields. The most you can really hope for its seems is to transition into a branch of health care that involves less patient care (medical informatics, path, etc.). However, I have a friend doing OB/gyn who quit after paying back loans and started a carpentry business. Knew of a mud/phud that quit before residency and started working at a Mexican restaurant. Maybe all hope of jumping ship is not lost after all.

 

[dragonfly99]

Sorry if you felt like I was being patronizing...NOT my intent at all.

I meant that it does get better after residency, because at least you have some choice about what job(s) to take, whether to do a fellowship, etc. Also, you get paid a lot better to do the same stuff you did as a resident. For example, I moonlight in an ER doing pretty much the same stuff I did as a resident, except that now I get paid >> what my residency wages would have been. Also, you start getting more respect from consults that you call, some patients that you see, etc. You don't have to stay up all night on call nearly as often (or maybe not at all, ever). In general you have some control over your hours, although of course there is a correlation between hours worked and how much $ you earn, so that's a trade-off.

 

[BlondeDocteur]

It sounds like HappyChair went to my medical school and was pushed into something surgical (as is the culture here).

Quit. Seriously. There are a billion alternatives if you're courageous enough to throw aside others' opinions and the security of having the next step mapped out.

 

[dizzy21]

I'm a pre-med student exploring the possibility of going to medical school. I have a question for all of you who have finished medical school and have more insight into the field of medicine. My question is, if you could turn back time, would you go into medicine again? I'd appreciate any comments as to why you would or would not go into medicine again, and what might you do differently if you could. Thanks!

Man, you are asking the wrong people. Med students and residents have long periods of doldrums due to the length and intensity of training. There are many bright spots but equally if not more completely tiring miserable nights. Its better to ask attending physicians already out there practicing this question as they have alot better perspective in terms of lifestyle, finances, job satisfaction etc.

And with the economy the way it is, healthcare is not a bad place to be.

 

[BobA]

It sounds like HappyChair went to my medical school and was pushed into something surgical (as is the culture here).

Quit. Seriously. There are a billion alternatives if you're courageous enough to throw aside others' opinions and the security of having the next step mapped out.

BD, I appreciate your posts most of the time.

However, just quitting is not an option for those of us with serious debt. 200K at 6.5-7% interest requires a hefty salary in order to just make the payments.

There aren't many jobs that I could get that would allow me to make my payments and own a house, a car, raise children, etc. For most of us, finishing residency is our only reasonable option.

 

[maceo]

I would not.

I still remember when I applied, right after college. At that point, I thought the world was my oyster. I graduated from a Ivy school with great grades and some really good extracurriculars. Not to sound like too big of a douche, but I had some options. I loved theoretical physics and wanted to be a string theorist. I also loved politics and strongly considered law school as well. I was courted by hedge funds for my mathematical aptitude.

But I thought, you know what, life as an academic seems miserable. Only a few of the top grad students actually get tenure track positions and even then its a bare-knuckle fight to make it. I didn't think I'd like the nitty-gritty of law, and finance seemed hollow.

I never really had that great an idea of what a doctor did, but I wanted to be the guy in being heroic and saving lives. I liked science, and the end result would be a secure job with a darn decent, if not finance level, income while making a huge impact on the lives of others. I investigated in further, did a lot of shadowing and thought, "Hey, this looks damn cool."

I got into a top tier med school, and it all went down hill from there. The first two years were brutally hard, harder than anything I had experienced before, even in the hardest of undergrad sciences (quantum chromodynamics included), or had even imagined. The 8 hours of lecture and hours of studying at night devastated any semblance I had of a life. Third year was even worse. 80-100 weeks on all the major rotations. Was treated like **** by everyone. During this year, a happy long term relationship I was in broke off. I haven't been in another one since. And guess what, turns out I really didn't like clinical medicine. More paperwork than I ever dreamed of, constantly angry coworkers, ungrateful, uncompliant patients, and, perhaps most of all, a complete loss of personal autonomy.

At that point though, I was $170,000 in debt and didn't have much choice but to power through residency at least. I decided on a clinical residency hoping things would get better. They just got worse. Now I'm stuck alone in an incredibly intense job I hate that takes up every waking moment of the day. I've sacrificed relationships and am thousands of miles away from friends and family for the "dream" of being a doctor. But that's okay, I make $8 an hour and am hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt which makes up for it. That old office space saying now applies to me, "Every day is worse than the last so every day you see me is the worst day of my life."

Meanwhile, friends from college who decided on academia are landing those tenure track positions, finance folks are millionaires, and folks in politics are getting good positions in the current administration. They all have free time, hobbies, and are starting families.

Heed my warnings. Unless you REALLY, REALLY want to and dream of being a doctor, don't do it. About 10% of folks I run into fall into this category and actually seem happy in their job. The rest just seem trapped into the job because of two reasons. 1) Debt (early in the career) and 2) they've spent so much time training that they're too old to start in an entry level post in another field (later in the career). Otherwise, although it may seem like a logical decision, it's just not worth the sacrifices.

As for me, I'm thinking of retraining in path or rads or something. It's not really why I went to med school, but I just can't take this **** anymore.

wow powerful post. MOst pre meds will poo poo your post, and they will be writing the same post in a few years. I wish this board was around when i was applying to med school 13 years ago

 

[maceo]

Nothing personal dragonfly as I'm sure you're a very nice person and just trying to help (much more than can be said of most people on online message boards), but I'm really getting tired of people telling me it will get better. In first year of med school, they said it would get better. In third year, it was supposed to be better than second. Internship was meant to be bad, but at least better in some ways then med school, and residency better than internship. It's just gotten worse. And the attendings I work with seem as miserable as residents. You know, actually that's a little unfair. I think about 50% of people really hate their jobs. About 40% tolerate it, and 10% are actually happy with their work. I'm just in the 50.

I think the issue with medicine is that by the time you actually get to see what it is like in the third year of med school (the bureaucracy, the futile profit-centric care, the toxic work environment), you're trapped into the field for at least another 7-8 years (2 more years of med school, 3 years minimum of residency, and 2-3 years to pay back loans). I can think of no other area of human endeavor where this is the case. Hate finance? Quit. Hate law? Spend a two years paying off loans and do something else. Hate grad school? Drop out with a masters and do something else. Hell, if you go to a military academy, you only have a 4 year commitment.

By the time you're done with medical training, you're in your early 30s and qualified for only 1 job, too old really for entry level jobs in most other desirable fields. The most you can really hope for its seems is to transition into a branch of health care that involves less patient care (medical informatics, path, etc.). However, I have a friend doing OB/gyn who quit after paying back loans and started a carpentry business. Knew of a mud/phud that quit before residency and started working at a Mexican restaurant. Maybe all hope of jumping ship is not lost after all.

i dont know what part of your training is but im here to tell you it AInt gonna get better. Its gonna suck even more the more you get into it. The mods get really pissed at me when i talk doom and gloom but its the truth. I dont try to shine sun up any ones arse. As you progress in your training, it sucks even worse. I agre with you I dont like it when people try to put a spin on it saying it will get better.

 

[nightowl]

I struggled a little bit in choosing that I would do it again, but overall, I think it is a worthwhile pursuit. There are some key things that I did that made it tip the scales, I think.
- I went to my state school, which really cut back on the loans I have to repay. My debt is still six figures, but I can't imagine what it would be if I had gone to a private/out of state school
- I chose a school closer to home, which turned out to be very important for me because my brother died during my second year of med school. I had wanted to go really far away to a big city, but was thankful I stayed close to home when tragedy struck
- I didn't put my life on hold to do medicine. Dated and got married to my husband during medical school. planning on having kids in residency. I think people do regret med school when they put their life on hold for YEARS.
- I don't have really high expectations for income. I grew up in a middle class home, I'll be the first doctor in my family. I didn't expect to be a millionaire once I finished residency. I'm perfectly content to drive a used Honda for my entire life and live in a moderately sized house. Don't need a benz or a mansion or vacations to Morocco
- and finally, I took a year out of school after college trying to figure out what to do with my life, and med school was all I could come up with. I think if I had been a more industrious type when it comes to career, I might be kind of miserable. But I KNEW I didn't belong in business, that had misery written all over it. I thought about doing mid-level healthcare, but realized I'm young, might as well just go for the MD.

So I guess part of the reason I'm happy is because there was no burning desire to do some other pursuit, like start a business, be a pilot, career x.
I do have friends that chose medicine as the "safe road", because it's a definite career path- once you're in there aren't too many risks involved and you're guaranteed an income and job security. The people that did it as a safe road do seem to regret it and wished they had gone for something easier. Because it is a hell of a long road. You have to have a very strong work ethic to get through it.

Also, I had worked lots of jobs in high school and college and that made it easier for me, I think. I knew what it was like to be REALLY miserable on a job, make barely any money doing something for HOURS and not get to use your brain or your education at all. so compared to that med school looked like the LIFE.

good luck with your decision.