Working for a college sports team?

[Justin Tomlin]

Hey everyone, I am a sophomore at NC State majoring in biochemistry and had been planning on going to PA school. However, I recently started seriously considering working towards the goal of being a "court-side," one-on-one member of the sports medicine staff for a college sports program. What is the best way to get to this goal? I know ATCs normally are the ones working with athletes on the court, but could PTs do this, too? Or could a PT even work as an ATC (not sure if there's enough overlap)? I am relatively ignorant as to the differences in PT, ATC, SCS, etc. since my primary focus had been PA school. If I did decide on PT school, what job opportunities are there for working with athletes? Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

**Sorry for the "double post" here and in the Pre-PT forum. Wasn't sure where it should go!

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[PTMattI]

look into shenandoah univesity in VA, they offer dual PT / ATC program

 

[atstudent]

If you want to be an Athletic Trainer, then get an Athletic Training degree and get certified as a Certified Athletic Trainer.

 

[DPTinFL]

Hey everyone, I am a sophomore at NC State majoring in biochemistry and had been planning on going to PA school. However, I recently started seriously considering working towards the goal of being a "court-side," one-on-one member of the sports medicine staff for a college sports program. What is the best way to get to this goal? I know ATCs normally are the ones working with athletes on the court, but could PTs do this, too? Or could a PT even work as an ATC (not sure if there's enough overlap)? I am relatively ignorant as to the differences in PT, ATC, SCS, etc. since my primary focus had been PA school. If I did decide on PT school, what job opportunities are there for working with athletes? Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

**Sorry for the "double post" here and in the Pre-PT forum. Wasn't sure where it should go!

Most court-side staff are usually ATCs. PTs usually work with athletes at the school's orthopedic center along with the rest of the sports medicine team. If you want to be court-side then you most likely will need to be ATC. But if you are a PT & ATC, would they pay you PT or ATC money?? No sure.

Check this cool article.

http://www.nba.com/lakers/features/secret_weapon

 

[atstudent]

I'd be interested to know how many schools actually have PTs on staff. Probably not many in the grand scheme...

 

[truthseeker]

Where I went to school, University of Iowa, when I was a senior, my training room supervisor was a PT/ATC. There was a PT/ATC at each training room except one (out of 5) on campus. Probably depends on the school. You are getting defensive ATstudent.

 

[atstudent]

I'm glad there's a nice double-standard. PTs are allowed to tell ATs where they belong, but ATs cannot let it be known what we do. Good to know.

 

[jesspt]

I'm glad there's a nice double-standard. PTs are allowed to tell ATs where they belong, but ATs cannot let it be known what we do. Good to know.

You haven't said a thing about what you "do," only about how you feel. And, I didn't hear truthseeker disagree with you. He only stated that at one Division I school, many of the trainers were dual certified PT/ATCs.

Cool your jets. Most of us don't want to be on the sidelines or in the training room.

 

[questionmark32]

As a PT, you'll probably only be able to work in a clinic and treat the athletes there. If you hear about a PT who travels or works with a team, 95% of the time they are a dual ATC/PT.


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[atstudent]

You haven't said a thing about what you "do," only about how you feel. And, I didn't hear truthseeker disagree with you. He only stated that at one Division I school, many of the trainers were dual certified PT/ATCs.

Cool your jets. Most of us don't want to be on the sidelines or in the training room.

So when the OP asked if PTs could do sideline coverage and I told him that if he wanted to be an Athletic Trainer, to get that degree, that's not "telling him what we do?"

Unless you are dual-credentialed, you have no business on the sideline. And if there's so much "overlap" then ATs need to be able to work in the clinic. It goes both ways. And no, I have no interest in working in a clinic. I just wish that PTs would stay out of way of Athletic Trainers for a change. Instead, they are the ones dictating the practice acts of Athletic Trainers. Recent examples: California licensure, Florida practice act, and Washington DC licensure.

 

[hawk777]

Troll alert....

 

[jesspt]

atstudent isn't trolling. He is a regular participant on this message board and is an engaged member of his profession. He is obviously frustrated with what some would consider practice act encroachment, just like many PTs are upset with the fact that ATCs are trying to get legislation passed to allow them to be reimbursed by Medicare.

 

[truthseeker]

So when the OP asked if PTs could do sideline coverage and I told him that if he wanted to be an Athletic Trainer, to get that degree, that's not "telling him what we do?"

Unless you are dual-credentialed, you have no business on the sideline. And if there's so much "overlap" then ATs need to be able to work in the clinic. It goes both ways. And no, I have no interest in working in a clinic. I just wish that PTs would stay out of way of Athletic Trainers for a change. Instead, they are the ones dictating the practice acts of Athletic Trainers. Recent examples: California licensure, Florida practice act, and Washington DC licensure.

Minnesota also has some legislation bubbling through the statehouse. The MNPT association most certainly is defending its turf. There is a lot of overlap between AT and PT. The problem is, the PT is generally not trained in emergency management. The AT is generally not trained in treating older adults with multiple co-morbidities that are traditionally NOT seen in an athletic population.

The overlap is with orthopedic patients who are in good overall health.

I agree that a PT is not as qualified as an AT to be on the sidelines. However, some towns don't have an ATC avaialble and the school does not allocate funding to hire one so, if the best you can do as an athletic director is hire (or more likely volunteered) a PT who maybe is an EMT you get some coverage where there would otherwise be none.

Advice to the NATA: spend more effort on getting ATCs in every high school rather than trying to get into the clinics and treat medicare patients.

 

[questionmark32]

I think the NATA is putting effort in getting more ATCs into high school settings. I think one of the problems is pay. While many private schools have enough money to hire one or two full-time ATCs and budget the Athletic Training room costs, many public schools do not have the funding to do so. Many are forced to only have coverage for games and if the money isn't there, sometimes they just get EMTs out to big games like for football or basketball. ATCs cannot survive on coverage and practices alone. It's a reason why so many get burned out and try to move into orthopedic clinical settings. I have to admit that ATCs are quite capable of working in this setting, but the problem comes when they have to deal with patients who are not fully active or the patients who are post-op with a surgery very rarely seen in the AT room.

On the other hand, I am noticing more and more PTs who do not have an ATC credential working in sports settings. They aren't replacing the ATC (since they aren't the ones dealing with the emergency medical situation), but they are definitely traveling with the team and treating them in the Athletic Training room. Whether what I'm seeing is a trend or not, PTs are finding their ways in collegiate and professional sports with little to no Athletic Training experience.


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[atstudent]

atstudent isn't trolling. He is a regular participant on this message board and is an engaged member of his profession. He is obviously frustrated with what some would consider practice act encroachment, just like many PTs are upset with the fact that ATCs are trying to get legislation passed to allow them to be reimbursed by Medicare.

I've never heard an Athletic Trainer say they wanted to be able to actually treat a Medicare patient. But as you know, third party insurances follow the lead of Medicare/Medicaid. So since Medicare/Medicaid claim Athletic Trainers "aren't qualified" then the third party insurances follow suit.

 

[questionmark32]

atstudent, do you mind telling us where do you work? Do you work in a high school, college setting, or are you with a pro team? How do you feel about PTs working in sports settings and how do you feel about PTs as a whole?


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[atstudent]

atstudent, do you mind telling us where do you work? Do you work in a high school, college setting, or are you with a pro team? How do you feel about PTs working in sports settings and how do you feel about PTs as a whole?


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I work for a PT clinic providing outreach services to a local high school. Generally PTs have no business on a sports sideline. They don't have the training and education for that. I've had multiple PTs tell me that. Do they have a place in sports? Absolutely! Working alongside ATs, PTs are an excellent member of the sports medicine team. The biggest problem I have with PTs are the ones who feel like they are superior to everybody else and are "in charge."

 

[questionmark32]

I work for a PT clinic providing outreach services to a local high school. Generally PTs have no business on a sports sideline. They don't have the training and education for that. I've had multiple PTs tell me that. Do they have a place in sports? Absolutely! Working alongside ATs, PTs are an excellent member of the sports medicine team. The biggest problem I have with PTs are the ones who feel like they are superior to everybody else and are "in charge."

I fully understand what you mean. However, do you ever feel that maybe some PTs feel the same way about ATs being in a clinical setting (though you say you do outreach, but I'm sure there's some orthopedic involvement as well)? I'm not saying that they don't belong, but I feel that PTs can be on a sideline just as much as a Strength Coach (CSCS) can be on the sidelying. They don't have any say about the state of a player's injury, but they can be there and offer some support. Even with PTs experience with movement.


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[futuredpt66]

Advice to the NATA: spend more effort on getting ATCs in every high school rather than trying to get into the clinics and treat medicare patients.

The problem with this statement is the NATA is trying to get an ATC into every high school, but a lot of them want the ATC to be part-time or teach a class at the school to validate their pay. Then you have a lot of clinics reaching out to these schools saying they'll supply an ATC for a small fee. The ATC ends up working mornings at the clinic and then going to the school in the afternoon to cover events. Kids get hurt and the ATC sends them to the clinic for treatment that they can't bill for so the PT ends up doing a lot of the treatments. What I don't get is if an ATC does that same treatment at the school as the PT does in the clinic, why is the ATC not capable of 1) doing it in the clinic and 2) able to use the code to bill for it?

I like utilizing PTs and their skill set in rehab, because they have a great deal of knowledge in that aspect. But I also echo atstudent and his sentiment that there are PTs that act like know it alls and having a "superior" ego. Thankfully, not all PTs are like that and they do work with you.

If a PT is at a D-1 school they're most likely dual credentialed unless theres a clinic attached to the athletic training room.

 

[atstudent]

I fully understand what you mean. However, do you ever feel that maybe some PTs feel the same way about ATs being in a clinical setting (though you say you do outreach, but I'm sure there's some orthopedic involvement as well)? I'm not saying that they don't belong, but I feel that PTs can be on a sideline just as much as a Strength Coach (CSCS) can be on the sidelying. They don't have any say about the state of a player's injury, but they can be there and offer some support. Even with PTs experience with movement.


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So, at the high school level, not at all?

 

[questionmark32]

So, at the high school level, not at all?

I'm not sure I follow you. I think a PT can help out an ATC on the side line if need be. Obviously, they won't be doing anything without the ATC's knowledge. Actually, they would be more beneficial to the ATC than your typical CSCS coach at any level of sport/activity. You didn't answer my earlier question. You're adamant that PTs should be nowhere near a sideline because that's the ATCs turf, but don't you feel that some PTs may feel the same way about ATCs working in a clinical setting extremely similar to a PT setting? Don't you think that it can be seen as ATCs moving in on the PT's turf?

 

[atstudent]

Oh, I do think that physical therapists and strength coaches could play important roles just like the ATs. But if they are there to support the AT on the sideline, it will never happen. Our schools are barely paying for Athletic Trainers; where do you expect them to have the money for additional medical personnel?

As far as your clinic question, I have to ask you what is it about the clinic rehab would ATs be doing that they don't already do? If I'm rehabbing an ACL rupture in the high school ATR I'm qualified to do it. But the minute I step into the clinic, now I'm not qualified. Why is that?

And personally, I'm not a fan of Athletic Trainers trying to move into clinical positions. It is much more important to me that we get Athletic Trainers into the high schools first.

Right now the NATA and Athletic Trainers are contemplating speciality certifications much like what PTs have. I think it's a terrible idea.

 

[markelmarcel]

Just wanted to chime in and say that this has been an interesting read thus far... Just throwing my two cents in that I believe that ATC's definitely have their place on the sidelines-- you guys do get a lot of emergency training that is great for getting a player back on the field. In fact, one of my good friends is an ATC who worked for a college (two teams), but now actually works with an orthopedic specialist There's overlap in knowledge bases and overlap isn't necessarily bad... It gives us the ability to be able to talk professionally with other health care/medical team members in the same language.

 

[futuredpt66]

Oh, I do think that physical therapists and strength coaches could play important roles just like the ATs. But if they are there to support the AT on the sideline, it will never happen. Our schools are barely paying for Athletic Trainers; where do you expect them to have the money for additional medical personnel?

As far as your clinic question, I have to ask you what is it about the clinic rehab would ATs be doing that they don't already do? If I'm rehabbing an ACL rupture in the high school ATR I'm qualified to do it. But the minute I step into the clinic, now I'm not qualified. Why is that?

And personally, I'm not a fan of Athletic Trainers trying to move into clinical positions. It is much more important to me that we get Athletic Trainers into the high schools first.

Right now the NATA and Athletic Trainers are contemplating speciality certifications much like what PTs have. I think it's a terrible idea.

When did NATA mention that they were contemplating specialty certifications?? I don't understand what this would accomplish or where they'd try to specialize. Maybe industrial or military, but even then that's a small percentage.

I'm with you that ATCs shouldn't be forced into a clinical position but that's kinda what is happening. Hospitals and PT clinics are getting these contracts with local area schools and then hiring ATCs to be put in them. Yet, ATCs are limited by their employer (ie hospital/clinic) on what they can do until they get to the school and their scope changes. You look at Florida and they've been taking ATCs out of the picture for what's essentially a first aid responder and if there's an injury outside their scope they just call 911 and have them take care of it from there.

 

[questionmark32]

When did NATA mention that they were contemplating specialty certifications?? I don't understand what this would accomplish or where they'd try to specialize. Maybe industrial or military, but even then that's a small percentage.

I'm with you that ATCs shouldn't be forced into a clinical position but that's kinda what is happening. Hospitals and PT clinics are getting these contracts with local area schools and then hiring ATCs to be put in them. Yet, ATCs are limited by their employer (ie hospital/clinic) on what they can do until they get to the school and their scope changes. You look at Florida and they've been taking ATCs out of the picture for what's essentially a first aid responder and if there's an injury outside their scope they just call 911 and have them take care of it from there.

Can you go into detail about what ATCs are dealing with in Florida? I did not know anything about this. Are you saying that the responsibility of the Athletic Trainer in Florida is decreasing? What is the Florida chapter doing? What is the NATA doing? I know where I live, there are a lot of PT businesses that are doing exactly what you mentioned to ATCs. One high school I worked at as a GA a few years ago got a new Head Athletic Trainer, but that ATC was contracted to that school. A PT clinic took over the position and placed an ATC there. I'm not sure what her responsibilities are, but I don't think they are paying her like the previous Athletic Trainer was getting paid. I wouldn't even be shocked if she's only there after school is over just to cover practices and games. The previous ATC was there all day to treat any injuries any kids had during their breaks between classes.


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[atstudent]

I don't know the ins and outs of the what was taking place in Florida, but from what I recall, Florida was trying to remove the term "athlete" in the athletic training practice act. That would allow athletic trainers to treat people of all ages that still fit into the professional background of an athletic trainer. In many states "athlete" is defined as one who is on a sports team. But that would exclude individuals such as marathon runners, military personnel, etc from being able to seek treatment from a Certified Athletic Trainer. Physical Therapists have fought this long and hard in many states. And unfortunately (for some) they have been successful. This limits the patient's ability to seek his/her desired treatment and it limits the athletic trainer's ability to treat patients.

Another thing Florida has done in some places is to eliminate Athletic Trainers and instead replace them with "First Aid Coordinators." This is downright scary and I'm surprised it hasn't led to a massive lawsuit. I'm sure at some point it will. South Carolina is another state that requires a "first responder" but that person also has very little training compared to that of the Certified Athletic Trainer. For far too long, schools, states, parents, and other healthcare providers have regarded athletic healthcare as an afterthought.

http://www.tcpalm.com/news/2009/oct/14/are-children-at-risk/

I know this next paragraph is likely to set off some hatred or whatever. But I think the argument could be made that PT is restricting the practice of Athletic Trainers. By clinics hiring Athletic Trainers in outreach positions, many times those ATs are severely limited in what they are allowed to do, they make pennies, and are expected to refer all rehabilitation back to the clinic to make a profit. PTs don't like being controlled by MDs through POPTs, but they seem to be just fine with that referral method when the PTs are the ones on top. I believe this is undercutting the Athletic Training profession because the clinics pay much less than what the schools are paying the clinics, but the schools are saving a significant amount of money to get what they think they need. Again, this goes back to the afterthought of athletic healthcare...

 

[questionmark32]

I don't know the ins and outs of the what was taking place in Florida, but from what I recall, Florida was trying to remove the term "athlete" in the athletic training practice act. That would allow athletic trainers to treat people of all ages that still fit into the professional background of an athletic trainer. In many states "athlete" is defined as one who is on a sports team. But that would exclude individuals such as marathon runners, military personnel, etc from being able to seek treatment from a Certified Athletic Trainer. Physical Therapists have fought this long and hard in many states. And unfortunately (for some) they have been successful. This limits the patient's ability to seek his/her desired treatment and it limits the athletic trainer's ability to treat patients.

Another thing Florida has done in some places is to eliminate Athletic Trainers and instead replace them with "First Aid Coordinators." This is downright scary and I'm surprised it hasn't led to a massive lawsuit. I'm sure at some point it will. South Carolina is another state that requires a "first responder" but that person also has very little training compared to that of the Certified Athletic Trainer. For far too long, schools, states, parents, and other healthcare providers have regarded athletic healthcare as an afterthought.

http://www.tcpalm.com/news/2009/oct/14/are-children-at-risk/

I know this next paragraph is likely to set off some hatred or whatever. But I think the argument could be made that PT is restricting the practice of Athletic Trainers. By clinics hiring Athletic Trainers in outreach positions, many times those ATs are severely limited in what they are allowed to do, they make pennies, and are expected to refer all rehabilitation back to the clinic to make a profit. PTs don't like being controlled by MDs through POPTs, but they seem to be just fine with that referral method when the PTs are the ones on top. I believe this is undercutting the Athletic Training profession because the clinics pay much less than what the schools are paying the clinics, but the schools are saving a significant amount of money to get what they think they need. Again, this goes back to the afterthought of athletic healthcare...

I think you're always going to have people feel that there should be a 'hierarchy'. Not that I agree with this, but people tend to put MD/DO first --> PT/DC next --> ATC/LMT next --> and so on... So while PTs hate the POPT clinics, ATCs are going to hate PT clinics contracting out ATC services. I can only think of one thing that I tell ATCs and PTs alike. Don't work for those companies. Unfortunately, it's easier said than done. It takes more work for an ATC to convince a school that their services are better than the PT-contracted ATC and also convince the school to pay them substantially more. It can be done. It has been done. But it takes the ATC who is willing to be rejected a few times for them to find the right school or setting. I understand you work at a PT clinic and are in a similar position. Have you tried this? I don't know what state you live in, but I'm sure you know ATCs who found good positions in schools who refused to be contracted out and lessen their services.


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[futuredpt66]

I think atstudent pretty much nailed it when he talks about "First Aid Coordinators." This actually began a few years ago when Florida started doing this, and I didn't know South Carolina was in on this either. Replacing ATCs with these "coordinators" who just call 911 or the ambulance that's on site (if they can afford that) and have them handle the situation if it's beyond basic first aid. Here's a link to an article when this first started. It's one of the most disturbing pieces I've read about athlete safety.

http://www.tcpalm.com/news/2009/oct/14/are-children-at-risk/

I kinda laugh when I read the player has to sit out until cleared by a doctor. If that's the case then hire a doc to attend all your games, because I'm sure that'll cost less than having an ATC. Some of these coordinators have to be available for taping and wrapping, that's scary in itself since they're not certified by any medical means other than CPR/AED/First Aid. I wouldn't want my kid getting evaluated by someone like that or taped for that matter. Can you imagine one of these guys trying to do a McConnell taping let alone taping an ankle? But that's ok, they're doing the best they can.

I know the University of Florida places some of their ATC GAs in local area high schools to help out. But again, these hospitals, and clinics are out sourcing ATCs to these schools for such a low price that these schools can't really say no. I worked out of a hospital in CT as an ATC at a D-III school, and I was told if there's a chance he needs to get looked at, send him at every opportunity. Every 6 months we did an evaluation of all the kids we sent to the hospital and how much their bill was. The school paid the hospital $4,000 for ATC services, just in the first 6 months they made more off those kids than my yearly salary of $44,000(they made $46,000+). During the winter when there wasn't a lot going on the school was limiting my hours I could be there since their payment was only for a certain number of hours. I ended up arguing with the AD that some of them still needed treatment and she said it'll have to wait until tomorrow. Eventually when the hospital got rid of the sports med program one of the high schools asked their ATC they'd like him to stay on but his salary would be $18,000 which was less than half what he was making.

Schools that can afford a full time ATC usually have them teach a class or two to validate their salary. Otherwise they're pretty much part time with no benefits and only cover practices and games if employed by the school. Nowadays it's tough to find an ATC full time in a high school. I live in MD now and there aren't any schools that have a full time ATC, they're all contracted through clinics. One county doesn't even have that, they have one ATC that frequents 5 area high schools by themselves and the county school board dictates to where he/she goes that particular day. It could be two schools or just one, just depends on daily events. So unfortunately, full time high school ATCs in some areas just isn't happening and that's really where the NATA needs to focus.

 

[questionmark32]

How does the NATA convince these schools that ATCs are worth spending 45+K/year? I know in some states, the minimum an ATC would get is $50,000/year. I heard states like Texas give their high school Athletic Trainers close to $80,000/year. It's tough to be realistic sometimes. Parents and teachers have to decide how important their children's/student's health is to them. At the same time, its almost unfair to have schools to pay extra for a full-time ATC when that school or county can't even budget for other aspects of education like after school activities, arts, tutoring, etc. This is why some schools almost force the full-time ATC to teach classes. It's the only way to justify spending $45,000+.

Unlike private schools who get a lot of funding from alumni (same with colleges/universities) public schools mostly have to rely on other means to get their money. Maybe football boosters can help pay for ATCs?? Sounds illegal though.


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[truthseeker]

The problem with this statement is the NATA is trying to get an ATC into every high school, but a lot of them want the ATC to be part-time or teach a class at the school to validate their pay. Then you have a lot of clinics reaching out to these schools saying they'll supply an ATC for a small fee. The ATC ends up working mornings at the clinic and then going to the school in the afternoon to cover events. Kids get hurt and the ATC sends them to the clinic for treatment that they can't bill for so the PT ends up doing a lot of the treatments. What I don't get is if an ATC does that same treatment at the school as the PT does in the clinic, why is the ATC not capable of 1) doing it in the clinic and 2) able to use the code to bill for it?

I like utilizing PTs and their skill set in rehab, because they have a great deal of knowledge in that aspect. But I also echo atstudent and his sentiment that there are PTs that act like know it alls and having a "superior" ego. Thankfully, not all PTs are like that and they do work with you.

If a PT is at a D-1 school they're most likely dual credentialed unless theres a clinic attached to the athletic training room.

The problem is not that they treat people in the morning, the problem is that they treat the total knee patient or the total hip patient, or the 62 year old rotator cuff tear, or teach a 55 year old with peripheral neuropathy how to use crutches. If all they did was work with athletic popluation, there would be much less of a gripe by the APTA. The problem is, there is no such discrimination between which patients are acceptible and which are not. Then the question is, if the AT can see an 18 year old high school athlete, why can't they see a 22 year old college athlete, then why cant they see a relatively healthy 26 year old slow pitch softball player, then why can't they see that 26 year old's mom who pulled something while bowling etc . . . it is a slippery slope.

 

[truthseeker]

Oh, I do think that physical therapists and strength coaches could play important roles just like the ATs. But if they are there to support the AT on the sideline, it will never happen. Our schools are barely paying for Athletic Trainers; where do you expect them to have the money for additional medical personnel?

As far as your clinic question, I have to ask you what is it about the clinic rehab would ATs be doing that they don't already do? If I'm rehabbing an ACL rupture in the high school ATR I'm qualified to do it. But the minute I step into the clinic, now I'm not qualified. Why is that?

And personally, I'm not a fan of Athletic Trainers trying to move into clinical positions. It is much more important to me that we get Athletic Trainers into the high schools first.

Right now the NATA and Athletic Trainers are contemplating speciality certifications much like what PTs have. I think it's a terrible idea.

I think the answer to your question is this: When working as an AT, you have essentially a standing order to do certain things. (at least in MN that is how the state determines what I am allowed to do on the sideline) When you work in the clinic, you are not working under your physician's direct orders like you are in the training room (I don't mean that you only do what you are told, I mean that there is a range of things that your team physician says that you can decide on your own because they trust you) In the PT clinic, I am my own boss. I decide what is done and what isn't done. I am solely responsible for my actions. There is a different level of independence legally.