Women in Surgical Residencies

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andros

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Hi there everyone,

With <6 weeks until I start residency, I've been thinking more and more about what residency will be like.

For the women reading this, did you feel like you had any unique challenges in residency as compared to your male colleagues? I have this feeling (which may be unfounded, but I don't think it is) that I will have to prove myself more than the male residents in my program. Were you treated any differently as a female?

Any advice would be appreciated! :)

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Yes, you will have to work harder to prove yourself. I came from a program that had lots of women ahead of me, so i didn't think it would be an issue, but there is still lots of subtle unintentional stuff that goes on. I felt that i had to work hard to earn a good reputation as a strong resident, whereas the guys automatically were assumed to be good and had to really screw up to ruin that. Also felt sometimes that the male staff would rather scrub with the guys so they could chat about "guy stuff" and i often felt disappointed when i was there resident for the day.
 
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Hi there everyone,

With <6 weeks until I start residency, I've been thinking more and more about what residency will be like.

For the women reading this, did you feel like you had any unique challenges in residency as compared to your male colleagues? I have this feeling (which may be unfounded, but I don't think it is) that I will have to prove myself more than the male residents in my program. Were you treated any differently as a female?

Any advice would be appreciated! :)


Depends on the residency program. I would have to say that I had to prove myself perhaps more than some of the men but probably related more to age than sex. I am a bit older.
 
Residency in general is a completely different world, and it can be hard to separate generic residency issues from gender issues. Having said that, I agree with tussy that women seem to have to prove themselves more, and are occasionally held to a different standard.

Find a female physician (she does not have to be a surgeon, and maybe should not be because she won't be part of your department's politics) with whom you feel comfortable talking. It is too bad that it was not until my 4th year that I found one, but it helps tremendously.
 
While I came from a program which was 50% female and wasn't aware of any overt sexism, it did sometimes feel like "the boys" were preferred. Every year at every program, you'll find a favorite resident - the one the attendings like to joke around with, seem to groom for success, etc.; IMHO its always one of "the boys".

I agree that there seems to be more to prove, especially with regard to your commitment to surgery and ESPECIALLY for those with families. It seems that it is assumed that the minute any personal crisis comes up, you will run for the hills and leave your surgery colleagues high and dry. I wouldn't say that the males were expected to prioritize surgery over family, but at least they were given the "benefit" of the doubt.
 
Thanks for the replies everyone. I've been talking to a woman in my program and she said that she doesn't feel like she is treated any differently by attendings, but that does notice a difference with some of the nursing staff and ER docs.

And I echo Samoa's comment -- thanks Pilot Doc. It will make for some good coffee shop reading over the next few weeks. :)
 
Thanks for the replies everyone. I've been talking to a woman in my program and she said that she doesn't feel like she is treated any differently by attendings, but that does notice a difference with some of the nursing staff and ER docs.

I've heard this from my female coresidents; many of the nurses take comments/orders as being b!tchy, where had the same comment come from a male, it would have been taken in jest.
 
Getting along with nurses can be an issue for many female residents. They love to flirt with the male residents and can see female residents as competition.

I've always been able to get along well with the nurses. Sometimes it just requires staying late, hanging out with them and gossiping. I even went so far as to bake them cookies when i knew they were short staffed and i was on call. I had friends for life on that ward and the nurses would go out of my way to make my life easier.

Definitley don't get into a competition with the nurses because you'll never win.
 
...when did they start letting women into surgical residencies...:hardy:
 
Thanks for the replies everyone. I've been talking to a woman in my program and she said that she doesn't feel like she is treated any differently by attendings, but that does notice a difference with some of the nursing staff and ER docs.

And I echo Samoa's comment -- thanks Pilot Doc. It will make for some good coffee shop reading over the next few weeks. :)

I didn't have much of a problem with the nurses or ER docs. I generally treated everyone with respect and it was returned.

Getting along with nurses can be an issue for many female residents. They love to flirt with the male residents and can see female residents as competition.

I've always been able to get along well with the nurses. Sometimes it just requires staying late, hanging out with them and gossiping. I even went so far as to bake them cookies when i knew they were short staffed and i was on call. I had friends for life on that ward and the nurses would go out of my way to make my life easier.

Definitley don't get into a competition with the nurses because you'll never win.

I definitely gave them full and free reign with flirting with my male colleagues. They could have them with my blessings. I never baked cookies (would probably poison someone) but I did do things like help move a patient or assist with a turn when they were bathing/bed changing (good time for me to check the patient over anyway) or used just plain good manners and courtesy.
 
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Acutally, I've found the patients to be the biggest challange to deal with..meaning that they assume I'm a nurse becuse I'm female. Even after I've introduced myself as Doctor X. Even after I've been rounding on them with the surgical team for a week. Just last week, when I went to teach a medical student how to do a vac dressing change on one of our floor pts, he assumed I was the visiting nurse service nurse when I walked into the room without the team. It's very frustrating.
 
I have seen female residents presume they were being asked to do something or "being punished" based on their gender just because they were asked.... it sometimes just defied their logic to understand the job has to be done and they were chosen for it because it had to be done and nothing to do with their gender. I have seen the same from ethnic groups, etc... I suspect there is prejudice and racism and discrimination from religious to personal orientation reasons/etc.... I am not going to even pretend to be so naive as to believe it doesn't occur. But, residency is hard.

As a first year, if you enter a program, any program, any specialty, with a chip on your shoulder, presuming you are there to prove something and assuming people are out to get you because of gender/orientation/religion/race/ethnicity/etc... you might find that you are the individual that has made the matter an issue.

Remember, the program ranked you and you ranked it, you each chose each other, and the I really doubt the program chose to rank you with the assumption that you are inferior for any particular reason. Go into your program believing you will succeed and willing to work hard without looking under every rock for evidence that you are being discriminated because of something as opposed to it's just hard.

If discrimination occurs, by all means respond to it and report it.

That is just my opinion.
 
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Good post by skylizard. This is one of my favorite topics and one that we talk about quite a bit. So apologies in advance for the long (and possibly rambling) post...

I have never (and do not expect to) encountered any overt discrimination in the hospital. But there are subtle undertones. A lot of the older patients think I'm a nurse (even when I march in with my white coat and MD badge - go figure). I'm the only girl in my intern class, and at the last department function I watched the resident-vs-attending basketball game from the sideline with the wives. I was recently asked by an older attending what specialties I was considering, and when I said I was still open to a lot of possibilities, his response was, "Well, you don't have many options, do you? I mean you're a woman - that pretty much limits you to breast or plastics." Whenever I come onto a service, I usually hear a lot of grumbling from the nurses about how much they miss the male intern who preceded me, and often some grumbling from the attendings too (who apparently miss the cameraderie of an all-male service.) This came to a head on my last rotation, when another intern confided to me that the VA staff was "terrified" of having a female intern coming onto the service (seems they'd had all guys for 6 months). The same intern told me that the (male) medical students at the VA were also apprehensive at the prospect of having a "surgery bitch" responsible for their grades.

So...does internship/residency as a woman have to be a constant struggle against put-downs and favoritism? Absolutely not. And as skylizard said, a lot of what we hold up as "discrimination" is probably honest mistakes clouded by oversensitivity. The way I see it, a lot of my elderly patients hail from a time when the only women in a hospital were nurses. A lot of the older attendings trained in an era when surgery residencies were like a band of brothers. Like it or not, these people's perceptions were shaped by the eras in which they grew up (or in the case of the medical students, other residents with whom they've worked). You can either get frustrated by this, or you can accept it and work to change those perceptions (ouch...cliche, but true).

Speaking of cliches, I never really understood the concept of the female-surgery-resident-as-witch cliche until this year. In my opinion, a lot of women go into surgery with the attitude that they need to somehow prove themselves as better, stronger, and tougher than the boys in order to force the attendings to respect them. When I was interviewing for residency, I was floored by how b*tchy, catty, and cutthroat a lot of the girls seemed. They were constantly sniping at each other about their clothes, their CV's, their board scores. There seems to be this perception among male surgeons and residents in other specialties that female surgery residents are almost uniformly vicious, frustrated gunners that are constantly trying to prove that they are good enough to run with the boys. As much as I hate stereotypes, there were an awful lot of gals that fit right in with that one on the interview trail. And I can't exactly blame the "old boys club" for wanting them to fail.

My attitude about starting surgical residency as a young woman was that I didn't want to have to prove anything, and I didn't want surgical residency to turn me into a bitch. I think carrying yourself with class and quiet confidence goes a whole lot further than trying to prove that you're the best. Don't expect respect. Set high goals for yourself - read diligently, do research, run your services well - not because you want to prove that you're better than the boys, but because your training during these next few years is going to prepare you to go out into the big ol' world as a surgeon, and then it's not going to matter whether some elderly demented patient thought you were a nurse.

So I wear makeup to work every day; I coordinate my jewelry and my scrubs. I cry with my patients on occasion. I even carried one of those pink fluffy pens that Elle did in "Legally Blond" for the first week that I was at the VA (I couldn't resist. I read Glamour and US Weekly with the nurses when I'm on night call. (I also watch football with the ortho guys in the call room, because I'm a sports nut). Be yourself. Don't think you have to be one of the guys to somehow "validate" yourself as a surgeon. Yes, women in surgery are a relatively new development, and yes, the old guard can find that threatening. Depending on how conservative your program is, you may find some double standards. But YOU CANNOT CHANGE THAT. All you can do is treat everyone with respect, carry yourself with confidence, and be the best surgeon you can be.

Internship is a great year. Have fun!
 
The same intern told me that the (male) medical students at the VA were also apprehensive at the prospect of having a "surgery bitch" responsible for their grades.

I've seen this a lot too. At the top of the evil surgery resident list, above all the "d#cks," is the cold-hearted female surgery resident. Nobody generates near as much disdain and hatred from the students as this girl does. She is mostly fictional, but I have to admit that I've seen her show up in some of the residents I worked under in med school.

Some parts about being a female surgery resident are a time-bomb. Mix together:
1. Insecurity that they're not respected by students/residents/attendings due to their gender.
2. Inability (for the single ones) to find romance secondary to long hours and the emotional drainage of residency.
3. lack of sleep, food, or the ability to pee for most of the day.
4. Weight gain secondary to hospital food/no time to work out, while being held to a stricter acceptable body image than the guys.
5. Alienation from peers in an "old boys club" atmosphere.

I'd honestly be a little scared if this didn't blow up and bring out the b#tch in people from time to time.
 
even more than general surgery, ortho is extremely male dominated. the residents tend to be a little more frat like. so for women in ortho it can be hard. i have several female friends who are surgeons and i have seen them go through trials and tribulations. it is a hard road for them. i don't think that it is as hard as it was in the past as far as the sexual harassment or discrimination, but from the life side. i think that there are several types of female surgery residents not good or bad just certain personalities that surgical specialties tend to bring out.

i think the hardest thing for female surgery residents to come to terms with is the family thing, marriage and kids. i think that becomes more of an issue for them than their male counterparts. when where an how? all questions that each individual has to decide. the work is easy. and don't tell anyone i said this (whispering) many of the female residents have better work ethic and technical skill than the males (shhhhh)
 
Hee hee. I remember scrubbing several vascular cases with an alpha-female resident. She had a bad rep among some of the med students, but if you just shrugged her criticism off and showed interest, she had a good side and taught well in the OR. She worked with this attending who never said a thing for a month, never played any music, never cursed etc. Almost like a Buddhist monk in the OR. So any conversation stemmed from resident and scrub tech.

In the middle of the case, the resident and the scrub tech were discussing man trouble.

Resident: "... I've had several relationships fail."

Attending: "I'm not surprised."

Resident: "Why?"

Attending: "Because you're a b****."

:eek:

Surprised, she took it in stride, but the attending continued to make short biting comments to that effect, and eventually explained he and another attending liked to abruptly needle people for curiosity's sakes.
 
Some parts about being a female surgery resident are a time-bomb. Mix together:
1. Insecurity that they're not respected by students/residents/attendings due to their gender.
2. Inability (for the single ones) to find romance secondary to long hours and the emotional drainage of residency.
3. lack of sleep, food, or the ability to pee for most of the day.
4. Weight gain secondary to hospital food/no time to work out, while being held to a stricter acceptable body image than the guys.
5. Alienation from peers in an "old boys club" atmosphere.

I'd honestly be a little scared if this didn't blow up and bring out the b#tch in people from time to time.

Never thought I'd say it, but....

...a very insightful post from SLUser :) . These are the things that I try not to think about, but denying they exist is wrong as well. Much as we try to deny it, I guess we gals do face some unique challenges in our residency. Nice to know there are at least a few guys out there that recognize it. :thumbup:
 
Good post by skylizard. This is one of my favorite topics and one that we talk about quite a bit. So apologies in advance for the long (and possibly rambling) post...

I have never (and do not expect to) encountered any overt discrimination in the hospital. But there are subtle undertones. A lot of the older patients think I'm a nurse (even when I march in with my white coat and MD badge - go figure). I'm the only girl in my intern class, and at the last department function I watched the resident-vs-attending basketball game from the sideline with the wives. I was recently asked by an older attending what specialties I was considering, and when I said I was still open to a lot of possibilities, his response was, "Well, you don't have many options, do you? I mean you're a woman - that pretty much limits you to breast or plastics." Whenever I come onto a service, I usually hear a lot of grumbling from the nurses about how much they miss the male intern who preceded me, and often some grumbling from the attendings too (who apparently miss the cameraderie of an all-male service.) This came to a head on my last rotation, when another intern confided to me that the VA staff was "terrified" of having a female intern coming onto the service (seems they'd had all guys for 6 months). The same intern told me that the (male) medical students at the VA were also apprehensive at the prospect of having a "surgery bitch" responsible for their grades.

So...does internship/residency as a woman have to be a constant struggle against put-downs and favoritism? Absolutely not. And as skylizard said, a lot of what we hold up as "discrimination" is probably honest mistakes clouded by oversensitivity. The way I see it, a lot of my elderly patients hail from a time when the only women in a hospital were nurses. A lot of the older attendings trained in an era when surgery residencies were like a band of brothers. Like it or not, these people's perceptions were shaped by the eras in which they grew up (or in the case of the medical students, other residents with whom they've worked). You can either get frustrated by this, or you can accept it and work to change those perceptions (ouch...cliche, but true).

Speaking of cliches, I never really understood the concept of the female-surgery-resident-as-witch cliche until this year. In my opinion, a lot of women go into surgery with the attitude that they need to somehow prove themselves as better, stronger, and tougher than the boys in order to force the attendings to respect them. When I was interviewing for residency, I was floored by how b*tchy, catty, and cutthroat a lot of the girls seemed. They were constantly sniping at each other about their clothes, their CV's, their board scores. There seems to be this perception among male surgeons and residents in other specialties that female surgery residents are almost uniformly vicious, frustrated gunners that are constantly trying to prove that they are good enough to run with the boys. As much as I hate stereotypes, there were an awful lot of gals that fit right in with that one on the interview trail. And I can't exactly blame the "old boys club" for wanting them to fail.

My attitude about starting surgical residency as a young woman was that I didn't want to have to prove anything, and I didn't want surgical residency to turn me into a bitch. I think carrying yourself with class and quiet confidence goes a whole lot further than trying to prove that you're the best. Don't expect respect. Set high goals for yourself - read diligently, do research, run your services well - not because you want to prove that you're better than the boys, but because your training during these next few years is going to prepare you to go out into the big ol' world as a surgeon, and then it's not going to matter whether some elderly demented patient thought you were a nurse.

So I wear makeup to work every day; I coordinate my jewelry and my scrubs. I cry with my patients on occasion. I even carried one of those pink fluffy pens that Elle did in "Legally Blond" for the first week that I was at the VA (I couldn't resist. I read Glamour and US Weekly with the nurses when I'm on night call. (I also watch football with the ortho guys in the call room, because I'm a sports nut). Be yourself. Don't think you have to be one of the guys to somehow "validate" yourself as a surgeon. Yes, women in surgery are a relatively new development, and yes, the old guard can find that threatening. Depending on how conservative your program is, you may find some double standards. But YOU CANNOT CHANGE THAT. All you can do is treat everyone with respect, carry yourself with confidence, and be the best surgeon you can be.

Internship is a great year. Have fun!



I am lucky enough to be graduating with another female who would also applaud this post. She is one of my best friends, and has helped residency become a tolerable experience.

and don't tell anyone i said this (whispering) many of the female residents have better work ethic and technical skill than the males (shhhhh)

I have had many attendings say this in one form or another. The funny thing is, I got to do a teaching case with a resident who has a blunt personality. I slept poorly the night before, thinking that his technique would be as rough as his temperament can be. I was shocked that he was one of the gentlest surgery residents I have ever seen, and he was far gentler than a lot of attendings.

Just goes to show you where assumptions can lead.:rolleyes:
 
4. Weight gain secondary to hospital food/no time to work out, while being held to a stricter acceptable body image than the guys.

RIGHT ON!

I am already stressed about the possiblity of gaining weight! ANd I am not even a resident yet! :D

As I reviewed this thread I thought about how I am terrified to begin my residency as a general surgeon... PERIOD. Not because I am a female, but damn, you can kill someone very very quickly in the surgical world.

I used to be the medical student that was terrified to ask a "dumb question". I knew that getting into the program and getting those LORs meant you had to impress people. My motto now is -@#!% it! Ask those dumb questions. This is MY time to learn to be a SURGEON. This is a HUGE responsibility. Who cares if someone thinks I am dumb? I say that now... let's see how the next year goes. But really people.. I am here to save lives, not impress my superiors. (this is what I tell myself)

It's a great discussion. It just reminds me that I should be reading instead of sleeping until 9AM!

How did we get so caught up in what other people think of us? Keep on keeping the good fight going. It's a long haul, but I am banking on the fact that it WILL be fun, I WILL learn how to save lives and become a SURGEON.

I just don't want to become the surgeon that is finally done with her training and fellowship, now practicing for the first time and killing people. I have seen it in my own program. New attendings making mistakes that result in death... then the senior attendings don't want anything to do with them, their hospital privilages get taken away... just don't want to end up like that.

Okay, up tomorrow to start reading! :(

It's so funny that this is all I can do right now. It's like telling your patient, "Don't worry, Sir, I read this in a book last week. Everything will be okay." For now reading is all I can do.
 
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