Women applying to ortho

[Talula]

Just out of curiosity, and all other things being equal, are female applicants to ortho residencies at a relative advantage, disadvantage, or is there no difference?

Anyone 'in the know'?

Thanks in advance for any insight.

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[doc05]

Originally posted by Talula
Just out of curiosity, and all other things being equal, are female applicants to ortho residencies at a relative advantage, disadvantage, or is there no difference?

Anyone 'in the know'?

Thanks in advance for any insight.

probably at a relative disadvantage at most programs. This has more to do with the fact that it is a physically demanding, male-dominated field with very much a jock mentality. Perhaps more so than GS. Nonetheless, there are surely some programs out there that are making strong efforts to recruit women applicants.

good luck

 

[C.C.C.P.]

I disagree.

Females are at a distinct advantage as programs try to recruit them to make female patients and administrators comfortable.

Here's an example. Say a program has 4 spots. The applicants they interview are, let's say, 15% female. (This may be a little generous given my experience on the interview trail last year.)

Let's say that the program has NO FEMALES in it's current roster and thus INSISTS upon ranking at least one female very high - probably 1st. (Like, say, BU a couple years back, UNM last year, to name a couple.)

Do the calculations: the females are a 1 in 15 shot (~6% chance, if there's 100 interviewees [not far off, for most programs]) but the remaining males would have a 3 in 85 (or 1 in 27, or ~4% chance).

Now, let's talk about the other reality: there are barely enough female applicants for each program to get one, while there are enough male applicants for each program to select among only the top 1/3 of the applicants.

In other words, a mediocre female has a much higher chance of getting an ortho spot than does a mediocre male.

If, however, you interview at a program that has a disproportionate number of females already in it, you stand a worse than average chance of getting in, because of everything the previous writer suggested.

Just my 2 cents,
C

 

[MacGyver]

So let me get this straight.

There is an inherent advantage to being male for ortho (strong manual dexterity)

Males strongly outnumber females in ortho

There is an inherent advantage to being female for ob/gyn (lots of women want female docs)

Females strongly outnumber males in ob/gyn (residencies)

There IS affirmative action for women trying to get into ortho

There is NO affirmative action for men trying to get into ob/gyn

Whats with all these freakin double standards?

Can somebody explain this contradiction to me?

 

[Mirror Form]

Originally posted by MacGyver
There is NO affirmative action for men trying to get into ob/gyn

Whats with all these freakin double standards?

Can somebody explain this contradiction to me?

It's all about the backlash from our parent's era and before. Unless you feel like starting a men's special interest group and lobbying congress, filing lawsuits, etc, things aren't going to change anytime soon. However, I have heard that some ob-gyn programs are trying to recruit more men. Of course, it's not like you'd need affirmative action to get an ob-gyn spot anyway.

 

[maxheadroom]

Mac,

Any man who wants to go into OB/Gyn will be able to secure a position. Not any woman can get into ortho. Why do you harp on men in OB so much? If you want an OB spot, there will be tons available to you. OB is far from competitive. The lifestyle is far from easy (babies actually do prefer to be born at night, odd but true). The malpractice crisis is hitting OB worse than almost any other field. It's natural for women to go into OB -- they have a primary interest in women's health, since they are, in fact, women. And don't bring Uro into this, because they do tons of female work.

Chill out, man. Find something else to rant about. This one is dead.

 

[Talula]

Originally posted by MacGyver
So let me get this straight.

There is an inherent advantage to being male for ortho (strong manual dexterity)

Males strongly outnumber females in ortho

There is an inherent advantage to being female for ob/gyn (lots of women want female docs)

Females strongly outnumber males in ob/gyn (residencies)

There IS affirmative action for women trying to get into ortho

There is NO affirmative action for men trying to get into ob/gyn

Whats with all these freakin double standards?

Can somebody explain this contradiction to me?

Hmmm...it's interesting to think about why this may be so, particularly in some places, but it's not been my experience. The reason I initially posed the question was that I have gotten into several debates with classmates about the issue. Here's the surgery breakdown: pretty much unanimously, the guys feel the girls have an advantage, while the ladies feel they're at a disadvantage. The reverse sentiments run true for ob/gyn, with the women feeling the men have a leg up and the guys thinking they don't have a prayer. Truth be told, I haven't felt much encouragement to pursue my interest in a surgical field, but neither has anyone tried to dissuade me. On the flip side, the ob/gyn PD at my school has seemed to make it a personal mission of his to recruit more men. I get the impression that it's probably highly program and PD-specific, and that our sensitivity to this topic has much to do with our respective genders. Keep the perspectives coming!

 

[Teufelhunden]

Originally posted by maxheadroom
It's natural for women to go into OB -- they have a primary interest in women's health, since they are, in fact, women.

This is insanity. So, would med students with DM have a predilection for endorcrinology? Is it more "natural" for people suffering from depression and anxiety to enter Psych?

I just don't get this argument that women are somehow pre-ordained to be OBGYNs. Why is it considered more "natural" for a woman to go into OB?

Would I be a better cardiologist if I had CAD? Would contracting HIV make me a better ID doc, since I'd be better able to "empathize" with my patients? Or, perhaps, suffering from MS would give me some unique insight into neurology, of couse making me a better neurologist, right?

Nothing personal, I'm just kinda pissed right now cuz I'm interested in OB, but seeing that men aren't exactly welcome in the field. If I see another ad for an OBGYN clinic that says "Women caring for women," I'll scream.

You think a rehab clinic run by an entire quadriplegic staff would be a run-away success? What about a psych clinic run by schizo's...okay, that last one wouldn't work at all.

You see my point, though, right?

 

[::Seabass::]

Originally posted by C.C.C.P.
Females are at a distinct advantage as programs try to recruit them to make female patients and administrators comfortable.

maybe true once the application process begins, but I feel maybe getting in the boys club to get the recs is still pretty hard, but maybe that is just the south. (yes, I know I'm a MS1 and don't know yet, but I've usually had an easy time being one of the guys, and this doesn't seem like it will be one of those times)

I know of one school in TX that kind of boasts about the fact that they don't accept females.

 

[maxheadroom]

Look at the numbers in OB. A male is welcome to pursue training. The only two guys in my class who applied OB had tons of interviews and matched at one of their top programs. Neither was very impressive. If you want to do OB/Gyn, you'll get a good spot somewhere.

 

[MacGyver]

Originally posted by maxheadroom
And don't bring Uro into this, because they do tons of female work.

Uhh...sorry but thats absolute BS. 95% of uro patients are male.

Women generally go to ob/gyns for their problems, not uros. Of course there are some exceptions but the urology patient load is at least 95% male.

 

[Ms. Dawson DO]

why would there need to be affirmative action for men trying to get into ob/gyn? is it just me, but aren't men still the majority of ob/gyns out there? since when is affirmative action needed for a group that still represents the majority? granted, women are gaining ground very quickly in that area (~40%) ...but as someone that just had a baby, i had to search long and hard for a female ob/gyn.

i also think alot of the posts are missing a crucial point....its not really about what the practitioner wants to pursue or why...ie who cares about why women going into ob or why someone suffering from depression would enter psych..if they would at all. its about answering the needs of the patients. and unfortunately we can't control human nature...no matter how much science or medicine we learn about.

teufelhunden, 'women caring for women' practices exists because of the need from the patients. speaking from personal experience, i knew i was pregnant at 4 weeks and waited until i found a female ob/gyn and midwife (which was 10 weeks) to have my first appt. So, because i was uncomfortable going to a male ob...i was willing to risk something happening during that 6 week lag period. I had my reasons...most of which was having a someone that could truly empathize with my situation..as opposed to spout book knowledge. (A man will never know first hand about pregnancy, miscarraiges, menstruation etc) And i don't think that male obs are inferior practitioners because of this...just not for me.

I truly believe if met with equal physician abilities....a person with MS would more likely choose a neurologist who has MS (mild case) or even a family member who has it..as opposed to just a neurologist who has just treated MS patients. I don't think there is anything wrong with this....its just a reality all docs have to deal with in regards to their patients. People like to interact with people like themselves....whether it be race, sex, disease etc.

 

[jayman]

ms. dawson, d.o.:

i think your logic is seriously flawed...and you put your baby at potential risk by not even considering a male ob/gyn on a temporary basis until you could find yourself a female doc.

this "human nature" that you refer to in order to justify why a woman would want a female ob/gyn or why a patient with MS would want a neurologist that had a personal connection with the disease is the same "human nature" that causes female orthopaedic surgeons to get pissed on ("women are too weak to handle the physical requirements of ortho") and a lot of other gender-based slander to continue in medicine.

your mention of empathy...that is, a doctor experiencing first-hand the ailments/condition of his/her patient...as a prerequisite for "better, more understanding care" is something i would expect to hear from someone who's ignorant of today's modern medical climate.

i'm not certain exactly what kind of medicine you practice, but i sincerely doubt that you've had a personal connection with every single illness/injury/condition that's come your way.

speaking of which, the only REAL way that your female ob/gyn is truly going to empathize with you is if she herself is a mother...you're really narrowing the field for yourself, ms. dawson, d.o..

 

[doc05]

Originally posted by Ms. Dawson, DO
why would there need to be affirmative action for men trying to get into ob/gyn? is it just me, but aren't men still the majority of ob/gyns out there? since when is affirmative action needed for a group that still represents the majority? granted, women are gaining ground very quickly in that area (~40%) ...but as someone that just had a baby, i had to search long and hard for a female ob/gyn.

i also think alot of the posts are missing a crucial point....its not really about what the practitioner wants to pursue or why...ie who cares about why women going into ob or why someone suffering from depression would enter psych..if they would at all. its about answering the needs of the patients. and unfortunately we can't control human nature...no matter how much science or medicine we learn about.

teufelhunden, 'women caring for women' practices exists because of the need from the patients. speaking from personal experience, i knew i was pregnant at 4 weeks and waited until i found a female ob/gyn and midwife (which was 10 weeks) to have my first appt. So, because i was uncomfortable going to a male ob...i was willing to risk something happening during that 6 week lag period. I had my reasons...most of which was having a someone that could truly empathize with my situation..as opposed to spout book knowledge. (A man will never know first hand about pregnancy, miscarraiges, menstruation etc) And i don't think that male obs are inferior practitioners because of this...just not for me.

I truly believe if met with equal physician abilities....a person with MS would more likely choose a neurologist who has MS (mild case) or even a family member who has it..as opposed to just a neurologist who has just treated MS patients. I don't think there is anything wrong with this....its just a reality all docs have to deal with in regards to their patients. People like to interact with people like themselves....whether it be race, sex, disease etc.

So I thought this was a discussion of orthopedics. I guess not.

And your argument is so flawed it's not even funny.

 

[Ms. Dawson DO]

I definitely DID NOT say this thinking is perfect...in fact, I am the first to admit that it is flawed. But the sad truth is that its a reality.... I also never said that a male ob didn't have the skills to be an ob because he is a male. I think THAT thinking is completely wrong. That is the same as saying a woman is too weak to handle the physical requirements of ortho. In fact I made a point to say that I don't think a male ob is not as good as a female. It's that thinking that causes gender based slander in medicine....

However, from a patient perspective, I do have the right to choose my caregiver and FOR ME, I need/ed an ob that I could connect with on the level I explained. Additionally, i will admit that my alternate midwife who has not had any kids definitely gives a DIFFERENT feel to her services than my ob and midwife who have experienced childbirth.

My point is that patients have the right to choose their caregivers and if someone who is entering the field of medicine (like myself) can be overcome by my own "natural" preferences for care, certainly a lay person is going to be. Thus, the reason i used myself as an example. I know that it opens myself up to criticism, but I can not help the way I feel no matter how much I know there is no fundamental intellectual difference between an equally qualified male and female ob/gyn. My mind knows, however, my heart is not convinced.

For the record, I am not a physician...in fact I am an older pre-med so perhaps that makes my opinion less valid..I don't know. I am inclined to think not, because although I have not been a physician, I have most certainly been a patient. Jayman, My point is not about the physician's thinking but about the patient's state of mind.

I have also experienced various illnesses first hand and through family members and seen them grapple with similar issues in their care....(in those cases it usually is about race...ie my grandmother for the life of her, literally, will NOT see a white male doctor...no matter how much we all try to reason with her). On the surface I am trying to help her understand what's best for her(care is care)..but inside, I can understand her perspective. Every patient comes with their set of baggage and predisposition to want a certain type of caregiver...some are more flexible than others. I just think as soon to be physicians, like teulfelhunden, we shouldn't be surprised when met with this in the real world.

 

[Ms. Dawson DO]

Originally posted by doc05
So I thought this was a discussion of orthopedics. I guess not.

And your argument is so flawed it's not even funny.

It WAS a discussion about ortho. Got kind of off track with the statements regarding AA for males in ob. I was confused and, I wanted clarification. I guess, my bad, for also adding my 2 cents about why "women caring for women" places exist. Teulfelhunden seemed really annoyed and asked if anyone agreed with him. I definitely dont want to change the point of the thread.

I know my argument is flawed in an ideal world. Seeing as though our world is far from ideal, can you really say such thinking doesn't exist on the patient level?

 

[jayman]

while you are correct about a patient's right to choose whatever kind of physician he or she wants based on their personal qualifying factors (male or female, white or not, having a personal connection to a particular disease, etc), don't you think that it's wise to do our part as physicians and stamp out this kind of erroneous public mentality so that the next time a patient walks into your office, he or she will have fewer preconceived notions about what makes a particular doctor comfortable to be around?

it seems that you were trying to do this very thing with your grandmother (although i admit growing up in the time period that she did, this may be easier said than done, especially with the knowledge that was made public about tuskegee, etc...i've seen this viewpoint held by americans who are not white who grew up in that time period a surprising number of times).

in any event, i've always felt that the best way to institute a change is to start doing it yourself...so when i had to go and see a urologist, and the only one who was taking new patients was a female, i went with her...she's really good...and while it was a little weird at first, parts are ultimately just parts, and i'd rather have a great female doc who knows what she's doing down there than a male doc who's in touch with my masculine side and going to talk about the monday night football game with me.

 

[LuckyMD2b]

Speak for your self

I much rather prefer to have a male urologist than a female doc feeling on my prostate. Sure if there were no other options, then I'd go to her as a last resort, but other wise I'd actively seek out a male doc.

That's not sexist or dumb, that's just what I'd prefer. And as a fully autonomous human being I do reserve the right to choose a male urologist over a female.

So even if you are the best Ob or gyn onc. surgeon in the world a woman still has the right to decide to have a female MD if that's what she is more comfortable with, and why wouldn't she be. That is simply human nature and you'd be completely ignorant of basic psychology to argue that people don't have preferences based on that with which they identify.

As for women in Ortho: I think that whole need for strength BS is over exaggerated. How many orthopods aren't now doing amputations and crap with electric saws and drills?

 

[Foxxy Cleopatra]

If there is affirmative action to get women in ortho, it certainly isn't equal to a guarantee. One of my best friends in medical school had awesome board scores, top of the class, yet still didn't match in Ortho. Understandably, she was disappointed, and who knows why she didn't match. I also have known men who went for OB that did not match at their top choices- and the programs weren't ultra-competitive.

So I think there is still some hurdles for people who want to go into traditionally male or female dominated fields. No doubt there is some preference for gender on the patient side as well. However, I think it is inaccurate to imply that women or minorities are much more likely to secure a spot in underrepresented fields. Traditions in medicine tend to hold strong.