Winter Crud

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VA Hopeful Dr

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In an effort to do more clinical-type postings here, I'm going to give a quick run down of my approach to the various winter respiratory infections and what I do with them (and why). This is not set in stone, as we all have patients we know well enough to not fit any particular model. At the moment, this is also limited to adults since kids and fevers go together like peas and carrots - yes, I just re-watched Forrest Gump.

For my own sanity's sake, I've broken down the winter crud into several basic categories: URI, Sinus infection (bacterial v. viral), pharyngitis (strep v. viral), bronchitis, pneumonia, and flu. I approach my H&P based on these possibilities.

So a little background. The IDSA tells us that most rhinosinusitis is viral (98+%). There are 3 ways (really 2) to tell if a patient is in the 2%. Symptoms constant for 10+ days, double sickening, or fever/sinus tenderness/purulent drainage - IDSA says temp over 101.5, I usually go with the CDC definition of fever (100.4). Double sickening still involved fever, just after a brief convalescent period, so I don't usually give that its own category. Not all that evidenced based, but when patients hit triple digits they get antsy. I will also make exceptions to the "my spouse said I felt really hit" since apparently no one owns a thermometer anymore.

If you look into the evidence behind bronchitis, you'll see that about 90% of that is viral. The remaining 10% doesn't seem to actually improve with antibiotics anyway barring some sort of chronic lung disease.

For pharyngitis, rapid antigen testing for strep A has a great PPV, not so good on the negative side. Luckily, the Centor Criteria is the exact opposite. So, a negative rapid test and fewer than 3 of the Centor Criteria leave me pretty confident in a negative.

Flu and pneumonia can be tricky, and I'll admit to getting lots of negative x-rays in the winter. Generally speaking, fever + cough and dyspnea (dyspnea being the big one) with a negative flu buys you a chest x-ray. Also not evidenced based, but radiation exposure is miniscule and a CXR down the hall is $40 for film and read.

So for my approach: Cough alone rules out sinus, URI, and pharyngitis (naturally). No fever or dyspnea give you bronchitis. My go to regiment is Mucinex DM (patients like specifics), honey (surprisingly evidenced-based), and hot tea. I have my own spiced tea recipe that I let patients sample in the office - they love it. If they ask for a prescription, I inquire about tessalon. At this stage, most people have tried it and either love it or hate it. If love, I'll write for that all day long. If hate, I'll usually relent with either codeine or hydrocodone cough syrup - codeine if its a reported history of cough, hydrocodone if they hack up a lung in the office.

If you add fever, you're at the flu v. PNA stage. Just dyspnea, and I usually qualify that as out of breath walking in from the parking lot, and you've bought yourself a CXR. For flu, I'll offer tamiflu but explain that for healthy people its expensive and that I've never been that impressed with its efficacy. For PNA, I've been using a lot of doxycycline. My area has been seeing lots of tendon issues and c. diff from levaquin and zithromax is essentially useless for strep pneumo and h. flu here. Will sometimes use inhalers, but again not impressed with efficacy there.

Congestion takes us to URI v. Sinus infection. If no sinus tenderness to percussion, you're a URI. If you do have tenderness, you're sinus. Whether you get antibiotics depends on duration or fever. For URI/viral sinus, I go with Mucinex for cough, sudafed (real sudafed, not the PE crap - making a Breaking Bad joke if patient under 70), afrin if really bad (with a stern talking to about how to use it to avoid rebound congestion), and lots of hot tea/soup. If I go to antibiotics, regular augmentin is OK if your local strep pneumo resistance to penicillin is less than 10%. Greater than that and you have to go to augmentin XR. I also use a good bit of doxy here as well. Levaquin is reserved for the young-ish patient who saw the NP at CVS and was given amoxicillin last week that of course didn't help.

Sore throat as primary complaint buys most patients a rapid strep - they've come to expect it and its cheap (costs me $1.50 to buy). If positive, I still like Pen VK - free at the local grocery store, and best evidence outside of the IM Bicillin. If negative but still concerning, will send culture. If negative and note concerning for strep, viral and talk symptom care. I take a 3-pronged approach explaining that each one will help about 25%. First, OTC pain meds - don't care which one. Second, Chloraseptic spray - tastes awful, works great. Third, lots of ice cream and milkshakes. If throat looks really bad or patient has a really tough time of it (mentions really bad pain for instance), I have started using short courses of decadron - like 6mg daily for 3-4 days. I've had pretty good results with that.

So that's kinda my approach. I hope that helps the folks still in training, and I'd love to hear how others out in practice do things.

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Bromfed has been my new favorite for coughs when I don't want to prescribe a narcotic based cough medication.
 
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So a little background. The IDSA tells us that most rhinosinusitis is viral (98+%). There are 3 ways (really 2) to tell if a patient is in the 2%. Symptoms constant for 10+ days, double sickening, or fever/sinus tenderness/purulent drainage - IDSA says temp over 101.5, I usually go with the CDC definition of fever (100.4). Double sickening still involved fever, just after a brief convalescent period, so I don't usually give that its own category. Not all that evidenced based, but when patients hit triple digits they get antsy. I will also make exceptions to the "my spouse said I felt really hit" since apparently no one owns a thermometer anymore.

It is typical for a viral sinusitis to have a fever the first 24-48hr that breaks. Double sickening is also described by patients as "I was getting much better, then suddenly the symptoms came back much worse".
Of note, the most recent IDSA meeting changed guidelines to "chronic sinusitis" stating that most is actually 2nd to allergies - and that antibiotic use has been change to optional.
The same with the "10 days" - it now states something to the effect of "after 10 days it is responsible to prescribe abx or WAIT an additional 1-2 weeks" (patients are going LOVE this).

So for now I use "10 days or fever >=3 days, or double sickening or severe pain". I think the evidence is going even further away from abx use - and I will likely follow.


If you look into the evidence behind bronchitis, you'll see that about 90% of that is viral. The remaining 10% doesn't seem to actually improve with antibiotics anyway barring some sort of chronic lung disease.

Quite a few times I will get CXR on anxious patients with bronchitis and even show them "see there is no pneumonia, there is no reason for abx and it will not make you better". I will treat a COPD/asthma who has a nml CXR who has "increased quantity of sputum with change in characteristics" (I think this is from GOLD guidelines) w/ an agent for atypicals.


For pharyngitis, rapid antigen testing for strep A has a great PPV, not so good on the negative side. Luckily, the Centor Criteria is the exact opposite. So, a negative rapid test and fewer than 3 of the Centor Criteria leave me pretty confident in a negative.

I rapid strept almost all sore throats, it makes people feel they "got their monies worth". If the tonsils look horrible or there is LA+fever+sore throat, I will send off a cx.

As I said in my previous posts - I think one of the most important things I have learned post-residency is "customer service". Patients expect "value" now, and their copays seem to increase every year. EBM does not provide the patients a sense of value, so instead I will do things for "patient comfort" or to "ease fears". I will give robitussin/codeine, tessalon perles, Medrol dosepaks/Dexamethasone for severe throat pain, etc.
 
It is typical for a viral sinusitis to have a fever the first 24-48hr that breaks. Double sickening is also described by patients as "I was getting much better, then suddenly the symptoms came back much worse".
Of note, the most recent IDSA meeting changed guidelines to "chronic sinusitis" stating that most is actually 2nd to allergies - and that antibiotic use has been change to optional.
The same with the "10 days" - it now states something to the effect of "after 10 days it is responsible to prescribe abx or WAIT an additional 1-2 weeks" (patients are going LOVE this).

So for now I use "10 days or fever >=3 days, or double sickening or severe pain". I think the evidence is going even further away from abx use - and I will likely follow.

Yeah I saw the changes to chronic issues - the allergists around here have been saying that for years. That said, I'm not holding my breath to see when the ENTs starting following that guideline change.

The 10 day thing is pretty vague and there is definitely no true harm in waiting, but honestly even the 10 day cut-off rules out like 98% of my parents and I don't mind giving the remaining 2% some doxy.

Quite a few times I will get CXR on anxious patients with bronchitis and even show them "see there is no pneumonia, there is no reason for abx and it will not make you better". I will treat a COPD/asthma who has a nml CXR who has "increased quantity of sputum with change in characteristics" (I think this is from GOLD guidelines) w/ an agent for atypicals.

I've done that a time or two before, the problem I then get is "I always get antibiotics for my bronchitis". I tell you, working in Urgent Care makes me truly hate most other family doctors in this town.

I rapid strept almost all sore throats, it makes people feel they "got their monies worth". If the tonsils look horrible or there is LA+fever+sore throat, I will send off a cx.

As I said in my previous posts - I think one of the most important things I have learned post-residency is "customer service". Patients expect "value" now, and their copays seem to increase every year. EBM does not provide the patients a sense of value, so instead I will do things for "patient comfort" or to "ease fears". I will give robitussin/codeine, tessalon perles, Medrol dosepaks/Dexamethasone for severe throat pain, etc.

Yeah, that was the biggest lesson out of residency for me as well. Even before I started doing DPC, I'd tell patients just to call if things didn't get better (or got much worse) to save them another bill. It made them happy, and I bet less than 1 in 10 actually ended up calling back later.
 
Even before I started doing DPC, I'd tell patients just to call if things didn't get better (or got much worse) to save them another bill. It made them happy, and I bet less than 1 in 10 actually ended up calling back later.

I'll do the "backup antibiotic" thing sometimes (give them a printed Rx but tell them not to fill it unless...) If they're still not getting better, I need to see them again.
 
I'll do the "backup antibiotic" thing sometimes (give them a printed Rx but tell them not to fill it unless...) If they're still not getting better, I need to see them again.
Yeah I do that with people that really look like they will get ticked off without a script. But, I get my petty revenge by writing on the script "Do not fill before X date" which coincidentally is on day 9-10 of symptoms
 
Not much to disagree with -- I tend to be a little looser with abx -- I find myself prescribing a lot of ZPacks to be started if symptoms worsen or fail to improve in 3-4 days -- when I know it's viral and the patient has that "I want an antibiotic" look or hints very strongly that they "just know" a ZPack will fix them -- or, here in Texas, the ubiquitous 4/40 or 8/80 (decadron/depomedrol) to "cure" a cold ---

My real tripover is length of time of symptoms, presence of true fever, productive cough, sinus pain/pressure -- what's such a beast explaining is a URI -- even after I tell them that it's viral and antibiotics won't touch it, I still get requests for abx --

Also, what's your method for handling the "this 'cough' started this morning and I've got family coming in/work to do and I can't afford to be sick. Can I get some abx to head it off/ as a preventative (not preventive -- personal sore point) measure" ---

and to add some humor ---

I read about a mom who stated her child's fever was 250 degrees -- she didn't have a thermometer and ascertained this by turning on the oven to 250, placing one hand on/in the oven and the other on the child -- since they both felt the same, the child had a temp of 250.....
 
If someone repeats the rheumatic heart disease epidemiologic studies, I suspect most guidelines would move away from treating strep pharyngitis at all. Similar to recent change in AOM management algorithms.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25113742
One audiodigest lecturer I listened to even suggested that the M protein variant in GAS responsible for rheumatic fever is largely not present in most strains of strep circulating these days.
Just food for thought.
 
If someone repeats the rheumatic heart disease epidemiologic studies, I suspect most guidelines would move away from treating strep pharyngitis at all. Similar to recent change in AOM management algorithms.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25113742
One audiodigest lecturer I listened to even suggested that the M protein variant in GAS responsible for rheumatic fever is largely not present in most strains of strep circulating these days.
Just food for thought.
Yeah, I know the EM folks are all a-quiver about not treating strep in developed nations. Even if it ends up not mattering for complications, I likely will continue to treat - the 24 hour symptom reduction alone is worth some pen VK.
 
Yeah, I know the EM folks are all a-quiver about not treating strep in developed nations. Even if it ends up not mattering for complications, I likely will continue to treat - the 24 hour symptom reduction alone is worth some pen VK.

and don't forget "Dr. Mom" who "just knows" that the kid needs antibiotics, steroids, cough syrup and 3 days off from school --- remember, one solid WebMD search trumps 4 years of undergrad, 4 years of medical school, 3 years of residency and 10 years of clinical practice --- for you to even suggest that Abx not be given for "strep throat" or an "ear infection" is something close to outright blasphemy at the foot of Mount Sinai with real, Old Testament Wrath of God about to ensue....

sorry, I really need to get over it but I've just had so much of that the last week that it's driving me nuts ---
 

I had read that when it came out and forgot about it. For GAS pharyngitis, this is a deviation from prior recommendation with centor criteria, yea? What I remember is (1) below certain score, send home; (2) above certain score, culture and abx; (3) between those scores, rapid strep and then cx and abx if positive. They're recommending never for empiric abx. Do a rapid, if it's positive, culture, send home and wait for culture, call in a script if the cx is positive for GAS?
 
I had read that when it came out and forgot about it. For GAS pharyngitis, this is a deviation from prior recommendation with centor criteria, yea? What I remember is (1) below certain score, send home; (2) above certain score, culture and abx; (3) between those scores, rapid strep and then cx and abx if positive. They're recommending never for empiric abx. Do a rapid, if it's positive, culture, send home and wait for culture, call in a script if the cx is positive for GAS?


if the rapid is positive, case closed. its positive treat for GAS. if the rapid is negative, i do a formal culture, tell them it will come back in two days, and to hold off and i will call them with the results.
 
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if the rapid is positive, case closed. its positive treat for GAS. if the rapid is negative, i do a formal culture, tell them it will come back in two days, and to hold off and i will call them with the results.

Thanks!
 
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