Will optometrists ever be out of work?

[jjoeirv]

Will optometrists ever be out of work? If people get Laser eye surgery in order to eliminate the need for glasses or contact lenses, then that would reduce the need for optometrists. My impression is that pharmacists and medical doctors are more likely to have a lifelong career, and they focus on the whole human body (rather than just one part of the body, which is the case with both optometrists and dentists). People always need to go to pharmacists, because they get sick. In fact, over the past 5 years, I have been to the doctor and pharmacist numerous times for various ailments. I might have been to my optometrist only 1 time.

When I observed my local businesses, I noticed the optometry practice didn't seem to get much customers walking in. However, the pharmacy near it always had a line of people who needed to get their prescription drugs. They were definitely busy with customers. I take my elderly neighbor fairly often to the local pharmacy in order to get her prescriptions, and to the doctor.

Some of my friends who were fellow biology majors could not get into medical school, so they chose pharmacy, optometry, or dentistry (they actually said that to me). However, when they chose those careers, some of my friends I know actually chose them randomly (they literally do eenie, meenie, miney, mo). They did not put a lot of thought into figuring out the best field for them, in terms of personal satisfaction and talent.

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[Richard_Hom]

Dear jjoeirv,

I doubt it although there will always be a surplus of optometrists in geographical areas that have the highest attraction. I don't think that you can equate the appearance of pharmacy traffic to optometry traffic.

Each is totall different. The pharmacy business is admittedly much larger than the optometry business probably by a factor of almost 50.

Whereas pharmacy as a self-employed business is almost unheard of, optometrists can still do well as independent self-employed proprietors.

Regards,
Richard

 

[Reality check]

If you work in retail as an optometrist - corporate chains etc.... these are not recession proof and you might face difficulties in finding or holding a job. From a personal standpoint, don't waste your time going to Optometry School in 2003-2004. The tuition has become outrageous in some of these private OD schools where the return in your investment isn't as solid as it once was. Botton line- Optometry is a waste of a profession and you'll always be considered second class citizen shadowing ophthalmology. Big cities are saturated w/ OD's and OMD's - not as easy to find a job as say 2 to 5 years ago.
Even medicine as to certain specialties are getting hit across the board as far as compensation goes and so forth malpractice increases etc............ 'better bet- pharmacy - and yes medicine- forget optometry.
Speaking from the heart-

 

[Richard_Hom]

Dear reality check,

Of course, your point of view seems to come from an "outside" view. You can "speak from the heart" but I don't believe your comment may have come from "being there".

Optometrists either thrive or survive because they choose different modes of practice. In many circumstances, optometrists can completely operate outside the healthcare mechanism just as plastic surgeons do. They can own or work in a practice that doesn't do any insurance and don't have to interact with a single ophthalmologist.

Or they can work in a hospital or another provider's office. Here it is a bit dicey on the degree of independence. Yes, you can "shadow" but I believe that those that do will quickly find other opportunities where the interaction isn't quite so one-sided.

Regards,
Richard

 

[valine1212]

I am assuming the original poster doesn't know what is happening in the pharmacy world.

Yes, people line up to pharmacists because they need drugs, but the thing is pharmacists dont prescribe drugs. Almost all these so called "pharmacy stores" are run by big corporate companies. When was the last time you saw a private pharmacy store?

Not counting the clinical pharmacists who work in hospitals, most of what pharmacists do are daily lab/office work that doesn't require a 4yr degree. Refilling pills, putting labels on pill box, phone anwsering, well...you get the ideas. In fact, there are now automation machines that can replace pharmacists. All the stores need is purchase a machine and just hire one pharmacist to monitor it. This is already happening in some retail stores. Imagine there will be a huge salary deflation in the pharmacy world.

Pharmacy education is expensive too. A lot of new grads have debts well over 100k just like other professional health schools.

I have 2 long time friends who are pharmacists and this is what they told me. You can also check this professional pharmacy discussion board. You will be amazed...

http://www.pharmacyweek.com/discussions/conference.asp?board_id=2&conference_id=18

Just pointing out some truth here...not trying to start any arguements or flames

 

[Reality check]

Greetings Dr.Horn,
I can assure you doctor my point of view actually comes from being there and not from an "outside view." As a colleague of yours, I've been "out there" for ten years practicing our profession in several modes of practice. The percentage of OD's who practice in the VA Hospitals and attain a degree of independence are few and far in between the majority of practicing OD's out there. Your analogy with plastic surgery is unpersuasive to me.
I hold my stance on my argument -this is a waste of a profession.

Regards,
RC

 

[Richard_Hom]

Dear Reality Check,

To balance your views for this audience, I only can say that there is always two sides to every story.

For the audience, where your present professional employment is not satisfying then you have to look at how it can help you what you want out of life? Maybe, your job isn't where you get satisfaction. I'm betting that employed optometrists don't have to carry their work home nor do they face the uncertainties of "call" or ever complex managed healthcare.

If you think optometrists have it bad with "mangled care", every other health professional (save possibly dentistry) has it a lot worse than optometry.

No doubt that you haven't found satisfaction. The big question is what specifically aggravates you about your present situation if you don't mind talking about it?

Regards,
Richard

 

[sdn]

Optometry is not as good as some one tries to make you believe. Optometry schools are having a hard time finding good students to pay top dollar for their education.

Optometry is also not good for someone wants to work part-time or having a family. It's actually retail business and you HAVE TO work weekends, late nights and holidays because that's when people have time to shop for their cotact lenses and glasses.

Chain stores and coporates will make you agree to their terms or force you out quickly. Working for private offices = low pay and bad schdule. Looking at hotjobs.com, there are about 8 jobs for optometrist and hundreds and thousands for pharmacists, dentists, nurses, physicians.

Thinking about doing medical eye care? Good luck getting on medical insurance panels. Most of them are closed to optometrists and there are lots of restrictions in state laws.

Also don't forget illegal contact lens sale hurting your business. As laser eye surgery gets even better and opticians start refract, you better off invest in a local gas station with your tuition money.

Do you want to work in malls, warehouses, strip malls...
Think twice before waste your money in a futureless, hopeless so called profession. Just my view.

 

[Reality check]

sdn I could not have said it any better. I agree with you. Dr. Horn I would not expect anything less than 100% from you supporting our profession. In your world (chairman of the VA optometry section) and the real world outside of academics are two worlds apart. Optometric salaries from when I graduated a decade ago have relatively become stagnant/ plateau; regardless what the AOA wants youto believe $110K plus or minus. That figure and a few others as employed OD's is not true. Optometry School applications have significantly decreased over the past 3-4 years. The demand and openings for new graduates whether it be in private practices, corporate offices or even clinics/hospitals just isn't there as it use to be. Pick up a newspaper and see the classifieds.
My dissatisfaction doctor does not actually come from practicing our profession. I am actually very good at it. I enjoy working with people of all age groups. It stems from a resentment on my part for not having aimed higher in life and becoming something more than an optometrist. I wish I could have challenged myself further in order to provide total medical and surgical care to the public. Optometry has made great strides during the past two decades in expanding therapeutic privileges to all 50 states. A marvelous achievement in itself!
It only gets you so far. It's not the same as being an OMD no matter how you look at it.
Would you actually send your children, nephew or anyclose close to you to Optometry School in 2003?
I seriously doubt it.

Thank you for reading this and I hope you understand me.

RC-

 

[Richard_Hom]

Dear sdn and RC,

If you think that the grass is greener on the other side, this might be revealing. A recent survey of physicians revealed that over 2/3 would not recommend medicine to their children.

I think the appeal of medicine (optometry included) has been significantly tempered by the economy and a litigious environment.

And optometry like most other disciplines (yes I call it a discipline separate from ophthalmology) has to adapt to changing patient and consumer preferences, technology advances and market forces.

I have the unusual distinction of having left practice for five years as a "mid life" transition and worked at several large computer copmanies. yes, the life was appealing and the prestige amongst my non-computer friends was great, but the toll on my person was much greater than anything I've faced in optometry.

So it is in medicine. Physicians overall are not getting the "automatic" prestige from patients that they once received. Patient loyalty is dissolving quickly medical plans change and they start shopping for physicians.

Here in CA, this has especially affected primary care and internists. Many have closed their individual offices and have consolidated into larger group practices or have quit private practice completely.

I strongly feel that healthcare can no longer be a "cottage industry" whereby individual 1-3 doctor offices are the mode of service. It's a "throwback" to former times. Many new ophthalmologists no longer open cold. They try to buy a practice or get employed.

So, the changing face of healthcare will significantly impact the new students. It's not money that will mostly attract the new students to apply. Yes, there are subspecialties where $$ can be made. But they have to adapt the optometric model to get there. For example, oncologists can triple their income if they compound and seel their own chemo drugs. Ophthalmologists open their own dispensaries to sell glasses.

Long answer or reply to both of your posts. Whatever my children will aim for, will be what they want to do. It's long ago been said that children will do what they want anyway.

Yours truly,
Richard

 

[sdn]

Play up optometry will not make it a better field for future students. It only ruins hope and dream to say the least. And please don't put down other fields to make optometry look or sound better. Optometry is not what a talented student should spend money and energy to pursuit, period.

Potential students should be very careful who and where you get information from. Ask why illegal contact lens sales cannot be stopped, ask why optometrist can't get on most medical panels, ask why there is a very hight % of new graduates HATE what they do, ask why optometry schools having a hard time getting student, ask why there is free eye exam, ask how www.twopairs.com works and why there are optometrists working there. Ask as many questions as possible and you may draw your own conclusion. Cheers.

 

[TomOD]

In an attempt to "balance" out the view a bit, I'll offer by 2 cents.

Siding with Dr. Hom, I find Optometry exciting, challenging and rewarding in many ways (including financially).

I graduated in 2000, immediately opened my own practice and haven't looked back since. I already make good money, make my own hours and see the type of patients I want to see. And I did this in an area already well populated with eye care providers.

I do agree that Optometry, like medicine is moving away from the "mom and pop" office and unfortuantely too far commercially. This is predominately Optometry but Medicine "dances" with commercial more and more.

Just this weekend, there were 2 adds in my local paper. One was for a medical office advertising $25 sports physicals. The other was from an unnamed LASIK Ophthalmologist touting $499 surgery.

The biggest mistake an OD grad can make is going to work in a commerical setting (in my opinion). It is a losing proposition in many ways.

And yes, there are probably too many OD and OMD is most areas. I wouldn't be upset if we graduated less OD's in the next decade (or 2 or 3). Application cycles for all professional schools flutuate. Trends can be seen when looking at the big picture.

Optometry is not the best profession in the world........I'd probably choose being a professional baseball player or a rock star............but that didn't work out.

The most unhappy OD's I have met were ones in commercial setting after they realize they are dispensible and simply tokens for the store. Smart ones start, buy or join a successful practice and become a partner.

I'm happy. I make good money and the income is rising steadily. The practice is growing, I'm on every medical plan I want except for one (it's closed to new providers). Optometry is on Medicare pariety with OMD (meaning we get paid exactly the same as they do).

I tell you I really get baffeled sometimes when I read how some people do well in Optometry and other feel its close to living in Hell. I can imagine students or would-be students will read all of this and be very confused. In that case, I would certainly recommend ignoring everything you read on here and go out and visit successful OD's in practice.

 

[Reality check]

Tom if you actually believe in what you say is true and makes you sleep better at night -then kudos to you. You've been out about three years and your enthusiasm for our profession will only carry you so far. One day you too will wake up and realize that the grass is indeed greener on the other side. Keep fullfulling your dream believing Optometry is a great profession. Don't kid these poor souls who are contemplating a career that has no future. Why would you invest over $100,000 on becoming an OD?
No respect.
Not a solid profession.
Limited even w/ therapeutics.
Salaries stagnant.
You are a wonderful product of the AOA and the schools of Optometry that has brain washed you and nearly every other recent graduate. My opinion. My views.
Regards,

RC-

 

[EyeCandy]

Reading through this discussion, the dichotomy that apparently exists in the optometry profession or at least within this sdn community, caught my attention.

Here are some statistics from one of the top optometry schools in the country: Berkeley School of Optometry

[http://spectacle.berkeley.edu/[/URL]

Total # of applicants in 1996: 370
Total # enrolled in 1996: 60
Avg. GPA of enrolled: 3.33
Avg. OAT academic score: 358

Total # of applicants in 2002: 191
Total # enrolled in 2002: 60
Avg. GPA of enrolled: 3.31
Avg. OAT academic score: 351

Strictly looking at the numbers.... it does seem that optometry has substantially decreased in popularity in just 6 years. The number of applicants have almost decreased by 50%, which is unheard of in med, dental, pharm and law. Sure it is just one school, but it is a very prominent school that is located in a state that has seen its population influx to roughly 34 million people. If anything, the number of applicants should have at least held steady at this rather unexpensive (for CA residents) institution.

I would be interested in hearing what some of you think about the presented statistics.

 

[TomOD]

RealityCheck,

I feel bad for you. I really do. It's obvious that you have chosen the wrong route in life and there is probably not more unfortunate. I hope your at least healthy.

But just because you are not motivated or smart or have the right personality or whatever to succeed in this profession, don't assume all of us don't.

I say this as I get ready to leave my large house purchaced last year, in my Lexus purchased last year to go to my newly expanded office (3 months ago), to see 17 patients today. 4 of these patients were referred to my by their MD's and PA's. 12 of them have medical eye problems that I will treat.

I fully fund my Roth IRA and have other investments. I work 3 1/2 days per week taking Tues and Fri afternoons and Wed morning off (cause I can.............I have a new baby on the way). I'm getting ready to put in an inground pool.

On Thursday mornings I have Physician Assistant students rotate through my office to learn about eye care and I teach them at the school.

Dr. Hom can tell you similar stories I'm sure.

I'm not blowing smoke my friend................more like leaving you in the smoke. If you hate Optometry that bad, leave it. We really don't need you, do we?

 

[Richard_Hom]

Dear EyeCandy,

The "dearth" of applicants has several causes. I think the chief amongst them is the lack of publicity amongs the "browsing" applicant.

I call the "browsing" applicant a casual applicant who didn't have an idea about optometry in the first place and out of anxiety will "shotgun" applications to medical, dental, pharmacy or optometry schools.

Most successful applicants and graduates to optometry school are those who have some prior experience with an optometrist. They know what they're getting into. I feel that most who are unhappy with optometry are those who had no such prior experience with the profession.

With little publicity and limited budgets, optometry schools and the profession don't get a lot of applications ever. I think in its best year, UCB only got about 1000 applications for its places.

The real subject is the continuing surplus of all healthcare providers. This also applies to optometry. But that is a subject for another thread.

Richard

Originally posted by EyeCandy
Reading through this discussion, the dichotomy that apparently exists in the optometry profession or at least within this sdn community, caught my attention.

Here are some statistics from one of the top optometry schools in the country: Berkeley School of Optometry

[http://spectacle.berkeley.edu/[/URL]

Total # of applicants in 1996: 370
Total # enrolled in 1996: 60
Avg. GPA of enrolled: 3.33
Avg. OAT academic score: 358

Total # of applicants in 2002: 191
Total # enrolled in 2002: 60
Avg. GPA of enrolled: 3.31
Avg. OAT academic score: 351

Strictly looking at the numbers.... it does seem that optometry has substantially decreased in popularity in just 6 years. The number of applicants have almost decreased by 50%, which is unheard of in med, dental, pharm and law. Sure it is just one school, but it is a very prominent school that is located in a state that has seen its population influx to roughly 34 million people. If anything, the number of applicants should have at least held steady at this rather unexpensive (for CA residents) institution.

I would be interested in hearing what some of you think about the presented statistics.

 

[sdn]

This thread sounds more and more like late night infomercial as the post getting more and more ridiculous. "I drive a Lexus and live in a mansion with lots of jewelry and a trophy wife, but I hardly work, just a few hours a week."

Boy, I am glad optometry is still this good for someone here. Am I missing something here?

Don't take it personally, just my observation.

 

[Serfes]

Good observation sdn. What's with all the anecdotal evidence? I could name quite a few successful college dropouts, but it doesn't make it a good idea.

 

[Eyegirl2k7]

Sdn, serfes, rc, etc..

Please post the statistics that show optometry is a bad profession, then. Application stats are not necessarily proof of that...


eyegirl (round one, ding ding).

 

[Serfes]

I don't necessarily think that it is a bad profession. I'm just not a proponent of anecdotal evidence.

 

[sdn]

Eyegirl,

Most optometry schools offer survey to recent graduates, but few release their result. Guess why? If most graduates are doing great, why won't they release it? Did you visit www.twopairs.com? Did you try do a google search on eyeglasses world? Did you read most optical chain agreement with ODs? Did you ask where most new graduates work, even the ones did residency?

I know you want to make optometry a better profession, so do I. But you can't live in a vacuum, hoping everything negative you see is not true. Don't take my word, you will experience first hand once you are out in the real world. Then we can talk again. Good luck, I know I need it.

 

[TomOD]

SDN and others,

I would welcome you to visit my practice in North Carolina at any time. Just email me and I will be happy to make arrangements and maybe I could show you how Optometry is supposed to be practiced.

If you do it right, you will not be affected by 2 for 1 eyeglasses or $39 eye exam ads any more that the excellent Ophthalmologists are worried about the $499 Lasik folks.

Your reputation is built by word-of-mouth. While you are here, I will be happy to take you around to visit some other very successful OD practices. I can also show you some not so succesful practices as well but I image you have seen plenty of those.

My theory is that OD students (and other health profession students as well) really don't have a clue what real work is. They have spent their whole life in school under mommy and daddy's financial thumbs and are shot into the real world unprepared, expecting the world to worship them just because they graduated school.

It's hard work. I wouldn't lie about that. But the rewards are available and they're real. Don't aim to be a refractionist because you will get eaten alive.............they are a dime-a-dozen.

Again, my office is open to anyone that makes it to my area and I'd be happy to see any of you.

 

[Reality check]

Tom you can sugar coat Optometry all you want and tell us how well you are doing with your finances (beautiful house, car, etc.....)as a result of your success; however, you don't impress anyone by what you say. You fail to understand a few points. Statistics are statistics as someone pointed out. They don't lie- right there in black and white. Newenco, SUNY, PCO ICO the California schools they are struggling to meet incoming students. Pick up a few journals and read.
Making money, being clinically competent (the best you can be in patient care) and being personable does not change the fact -Optometry is a waste of a profession.
I bet you there are many OD's out there that do well financially like yourself -make big bucks, are excellent clinicians as far as clinical competency goes, are very likeable among there patients and peers but still regret having chosen optometry. Why?
Can you tell me why? Because they are just optometrists!
Wasted talent from undergrad that could have aspired to something more in life. Ask yourself how many MD wannabes are out there practicing as such with an OD title? Faculty and academic members of all Optometry Schools included.
Have you studied economics? Supply and demand. A lot of empty seats just begging for potential applicants to fill them.
Dr. Horn your statement "I feel that most who are unhappy with optometry are those who had no such prior experience with the profession." You gotta be kidding me? A person of your position to make such an absurd statement like that is staggering. Shame on you!

 

[Richard_Hom]

Dear Reality Check,

Thanks for your comments. I'm not sure what you mean by your comment "shame on you". Please expand.

BTW, your use of a moniker, does it mean that you don't want to be recognized by someone else on this forum?

Regards,
Richard

 

[Doofus]

This thread is very dejecting.

 

[sdn]

Truth hurts. It hurts more when others try to mislead you into a futureless, hopeless situation. Watch out.

 

[TomOD]

Back to the original post. Please remember that there was gloom and doom when contact lenses were first invented. Everyone thought there would be an end to eyeglasses. After all, who would want to wear big, heavy glasses when they could have "invisible glasses". This gloomy prophecy turned out to be false.

Then when accurate autorefractors come on the scene in the 1970's or 80's, many people thought the job of Optometrist would be over. After all, these computers can get refractions as good as many docs some times. Optometry has continued to grow and grow in all ways.

Refractive surgery was hyped as an end to corrective lenses but it hasn't happened. It has had little to no negative effect for Optometry and, in fact, has probably had a positive effect in many ways.

There are always negative people around that will whine about anything they can blame for their lack of success. They remind me of my welfare patients who think they deserve a free exam and expensive free eyewear because "they are entitled to it". It's ashame that so many have this "entitlement" attitude.

So far, the people bashing Optometry only state that they are upset because their OD degree didn't win them instant superstar respect and they can't get on some medical plans (something that I haven't had a problem with).

Since you guys are claiming that Optometry is the worst profession on the planet, how about filling us in on what else you don't like about it and how you'd make it better (or would you just rather do away with the profession alltogether?).

Are you not making any money? Can you not pay your bills? Do patients spit on you after they get their exam? Can you not find a job? Were you expecting to make $300,000/year? Are you upset that you can't compete with commerical store in eyeglass sales? All of the above? I'm really curious. Help me out.

 

[Eyegirl2k7]

Sdn,

I've shadowed six optometrists. Two are a year out of school and doing pretty well. (one started a practice cold). One's doing a chain store thing (not happy with it, but it's just temporary till the loans are gone). Another practices in a hospital, and enjoys that quite a bit. The other two are established practitioners. I interviewed all of them and not one regretted the choice to go into optometry. I have yet to meet an optometrist who is unhappy (at least one who isn't just some random person on the internet).

I'm not as childish and immature as some of you seem to think. True, I'm idealistic. That doesn't make it right to address me in a condescending tone.


I know optometry has a bad side. I know the opticians may someday refract, that opthalmologists have all the money, etc.. etc... etc.. I know the chain stores are a p roblem. I'm not going into it with my eyes shut.

RC--I'm truly sorry that you didn't get to be an OMD, if that's what you want so much. I wish you luck in all future endeavors.

 

[cpw]

man, I come back from the boards being down for THIS!? PLEASE people! This is rediculous! This is like arguing about abortion.. no one is going to change anyones mind. if you don't like optometry LEAVE.. if you're happy doing what you're doing.. stay and have much happiness in life.

Good lord.

I have boards to study for....because I AM in OD school I AM going to be good at it and I KNOW what I'm getting myself into.
Have a nice day.

 

[Reality check]

Dr. Hom,
My apologies to you. I was a bit harsh telling you shame on you but your comments annoyed me. Your reasoning and judgement as to why some are not happy with the profession did not make sense. Perhaps many know what they are getting into prior to starting Optometry School only to realize afterwards there expectations are not met. My opinion.
Eyegirl 2K7- don't feel sorry for me. I got my OD degree a decade ago. Feel sorry for yourself and other souls who are going to be paying outrageous Optometry school tuition (if you have no help from your parents or other sources)and try having a comftable lifestyle once you are done with school while paying off your loans. Secondly, you put down chain stores/commercial optometry like you really know what you are talking about. Do you? It's not necessarily where you practice but how you practice. But you are already so brain washed about commercial optometry you think that is the problem to our profession. Guess what? It's not. It goes beyond that. OMD's have all the money? Perhaps. But you know what? Opticians who own many successful chain stores who employ OD's after school make just as of tons of money as OMD's do. Good Luck on your Optometric career. I hope it meets all of your future expectations. It didn't for me.

RC_

 

[rpames]

In the past two weeks I got married, had a honeymoon and moved in with my new wife. I then log on to good old SDN for the first time in over 2 weeks and I read this for the past 25 minutes.

What a waste!

Besides the two of three ODs on this forum that hate optometry, I have not encountered any. A month ago I went to local meeting of WOA (Wisconsin Opt. Asoc.) and spoke and ate with 25 or so OD's. Every single one expressed excitement for me going into Optometry. The several I spoke to at langth we all very possitive about the field.

When I read the few guy's on the forum bash the field I get a little nervous, but then I listen to other guys...then I talk to my dad (an OD) and they all are possitive.

I'm going to listen to my dad, TomOD, Dr. Hom, and the 25 other ODs I spoken to.

 

[Serfes]

Not that I think optometry is a waste of a profession, but it would seem like the people you would find at the meeting of an optometry association would tend to be those that are more enthusiastic about the profession. In other words, at such a meeting you would be more likely to come across enthusiastic optometrists as opposed to jaded ones -- not necessarily because the former are more common, but because they are the ones that would attend such meetings.

 

[Eyegirl2k7]

Rpames...good to have you back and congratulations.

 

[sdn]

Listen to whomever you want to listen, just wait until graduation and find out what's out there. It's your money and your life. Oh, excuse me it's your life and your daddy's money.

 

[cpw]

keep up the personal attacks against other users and you will be removed from the forums.

play nice kid!

 

[Kunsan]

I too been reading this nonsense for 25minutes but you got to give RC some credit for some truth that no one will speak about. Thanks RC for some great insight.

 

[Reality check]

My pleasure Kunsan. It's not always good to be brutally honest and blunt; but some things need to be said to wake people up.
Optometry and Ophthalmology one day( perhaps in my life time or not) will become one. The two professions will unite.
My guess. My opinion.

Regards,

RC.

 

[Richard_Hom]

Dear RC,

In this regard, I do agree that this might eventually happen.

Originally posted by Reality check
Optometry and Ophthalmology one day( perhaps in my life time or not) will become one. The two professions will unite.

Regards,
Richard_Hom

 

[eddieberetta]

Originally posted by Reality check
My pleasure Kunsan. It's not always good to be brutally honest and blunt; but some things need to be said to wake people up.
Optometry and Ophthalmology one day( perhaps in my life time or not) will become one. The two professions will unite.
My guess. My opinion.

Regards,

RC.

I doubt it. You will always need an MD to become an eye physician/surgeon...if the two "unite" it will mean that the OMD provides all eye care. This can only happen if all the day-to-day tasks currently performed by ODs are relegated to others like opticians. This would entirely obviate the OD degree.

 

[r_salis]

A cup of coffee is just way too expensive at Starbucks.

I just thought that little nugget of truth needed to be stated in a public forum, since no one has been willing to say it before. Thank you.

 

[cpw]

Originally posted by r_salis
A cup of coffee is just way too expensive at Starbucks.

I just thought that little nugget of truth needed to be stated in a public forum, since no one has been willing to say it before. Thank you.

amen, sister.

 

[Richard_Hom]

Dear Dr,

I believe that any union between the professions will be one of convenience and expediency rather than common sense. As with osteopathy, I believe the physicians in CA wanted to rid themselves of competition and offered to incorporate / grandfather the DO's who wanted MD's and convert UC Irvine to an allopathic medical school.

Of course, don't jump to the conclusion that optometry will be so integrated. I believe that a novel and unique agreement will be reached "one day" / "sometime" in which both organizations (the American Academy of Ophthalmology and the American Optometric Association) will seek some type of truce. The integration of the two professions will most likely be at the state level and will be mediated by some regulartory or legilslative body. Again, this might be in 5, 10, 15, or 20 years. Who knows!

Richard_Hom

Originally posted by eddieberetta
I doubt it. You will always need an MD to become an eye physician/surgeon...if the two "unite" it will mean that the OMD provides all eye care. This can only happen if all the day-to-day tasks currently performed by ODs are relegated to others like opticians. This would entirely obviate the OD degree.

 

[EyeCandy]

hmmm.... the idea of an MD sitting at lens crafters or walmart is not a realistic one.

 

[rpames]

Actually I have seen an MD on the window of a mall shop. I have also seen laser surgery in the mall. I guess your sacred MD is not quite as special as you thought.

 

[EyeCandy]

Exceptions prove the rule. I never said MD's were sacred..... just common sense and reality.

 

[Andrew_Doan]

Originally posted by Richard_Hom
Dear Dr,

I believe that any union between the professions will be one of convenience and expediency rather than common sense. As with osteopathy, I believe the physicians in CA wanted to rid themselves of competition and offered to incorporate / grandfather the DO's who wanted MD's and convert UC Irvine to an allopathic medical school.

Of course, don't jump to the conclusion that optometry will be so integrated. I believe that a novel and unique agreement will be reached "one day" / "sometime" in which both organizations (the American Academy of Ophthalmology and the American Optometric Association) will seek some type of truce. The integration of the two professions will most likely be at the state level and will be mediated by some regulartory or legilslative body. Again, this might be in 5, 10, 15, or 20 years. Who knows!

Richard_Hom

If there is a meld of optometry and ophthalmology (similiar to the DOs and MDs), then you will first see that optometrists must: 1) attend a school that teaches a similar curriculum as the MDs, AND 2) complete a 4 year internship-residency program approved by a surgical board. Because the number of ophthalmology residencies are limited, I am not sure how melding optometry and ophthalmology will increase the number of surgeons. ODs will still have to compete against MDs to get residency spots. Currently, there are less than 450 spots per year. This will increase the competition, but not the number of surgeons trained per year.

DOs are in a similar situation. Their medical curriculum is almost identical to that of a MDs, in addition, if they want to be surgeons, then they must also apply to the same surgical residencies that MDs apply to. There are no separate DO surgical programs. Unlike the ODs in New Jersey and Oklahoma who try to jump-start their own optometry surgical training programs, DO's have integrated themselves with MDs, and apply to the same surgical residencies established by the MDs. Thus, the DO's are in a very different situation in regards to education, and medical/surgical training as current optometrists.

The melding of optometry and ophthalmology sounds nice, but in fact, these two professions are very different. Optometry serves a very useful function as primary care providers, and ophthalmologist serve well as medical and surgical providers. Neither will be out of work in the next century, and I don't believe that melding the two will do society any good if ODs do not complete the requirements outlined above.

 

[DOsDad]

Your statement that DOs must apply to MD surgery programs is incorrect. There are several DO only surgery residencies out there.

 

[Richard_Hom]

Dr. Doan,

I happen to agree with you regarding "melding the profession" and is consistent with my vision of "joining forces". Melding to me doesn't mean identical with no distinguishing features. I characterize it as such.

1. Optometry being primary eye care providers with "medical-only" eye care domain

2. Ophthlamology has complicated medical and surgical domain.

3. The popularity or appeal of optometry is really based upon the vacuum of reimbursement and availability that has been created by ophthalmology.

4. Optometry will continue to flourish because whatever number of ophthalmologists will graduate, it's not in their mental set to do the tasks of primary eye care, development/behavioral vision or low vision rehabilitation.

5. I also believe that the term or concept of "comprehensive ophthalmologist " has been conjured to combat optometry's inroads. It's success amongst ophthalmologists remains to be seen as premium reimbursements will still go to elevate to the more complcated medical and surgical realms rather than routine eye examinations, red eyes, et.c

Regards,
Richard

Originally posted by Ophtho_MudPhud
The melding of optometry and ophthalmology sounds nice, but in fact, these two professions are very different. Optometry serves a very useful function as primary care providers, and ophthalmologist serve well as medical and surgical providers.

 

[TomOD]

There should not be a melting of the profession but more of a shifting that we are already seeing.

Optometry needs to have an expanded reach for a number of reasons.

I am fortunate to be in NC where Optometry has a fairly broad scope (probably second to OK). We have full "medical" scope with regard to topical and oral meds and I use them daily.

An example from today: I had a 45 y.o lady that I am 99.9% sure has NAION secondary to HTN with 20/200 acuity and a positive APD (no other symptoms). I saw her 3 months ago for a routine exam with mild HTN retinopathy and sent her to an Internist for evaluation and initiation of medication.

This time I decided to let the Internist "call the shots" and I was going to ask her to order an ESR and additional blood work. I had my staff call her. Turns out she "retired as of yesterday" and they didn't know who would take over!

So we called the local retinal Ophthalmologist (don't have a local neuroOMD) who was able to "squeeze her in in 1 week after some coaxing). I was going to have him evaluate her anyway but I knew it would be a while since he is only in town once per week. I could have had a local "comprehensive" Ophthalmologist see her...........but what would be the use? What could they do that I can't except to apply their vast knowledge that I couldn't possible have

I got tired of playing and just sent her out to a lab for a stat Westergren ESR and CBC. It was very beneficial for me to be able to do this and it will provide valuable information to the retinal guy.

My local cataract Ophthalmologist has a 4 week wait on YAG capsultomies. I sent him 4 last month. 4 cases that I could have solved easily in my office in 10 minutes. Instead they have to wait a month and then go to his office and wait 4 hours (this is according to them) for what they consider "a 5 minute procedure". They are pissed when they come back for post-op care and I have to take the brunt of it because HE made them wait so long and wasn't very "pleasant" to them (and quite frankly he is not a great surgeon but a nice guy).

I have heard arguments put forth that OD's claim that we are more cost effective and this is countered by some Ophthalmologists saying that this is bolony. They say OD's get paid the same and this is true. Where it is cost effective is when I don't have to send patients to another doctor for another exam when I can easily treat it myself.

I can do a 30 second chalazion Kenalog injection or schedule the pt to see an Ophthalmologist in 3-6 weeks to have the same thing done (after he does another comprehensive 92004 exam "for the record").....or I can send it to the local PA at the doc in the box Urgent Care clinic to have it done..........or to the nurse at the local county health department..........or possibly to the girl doing ear piercing at the mall

And finally, a classic example of stupidity from the VA hospital. I see VA patients on contract. I saw a lady 6 months ago with a hx of PDR with extensive PRP........seeing 20/50 though viteral fibrosis and hemorrhages. I recommended that she see a vitreoretinal surgeon for possible vitrectomy. 6 months pass and she is referred back to my office with 20/100 acuity and worsening PDR and says the VA never contacted her for a retinal appt. I call the VA and they say she has to see a local contract Ophthalmologist and HE has to send a report to the VA Optometrist before they will send her to Duke to have the residents have a go at her. Isn't the bass-awkwards!

So the crux of my argument is that we don't want to be Ophthalmologists.........only fuller-scope OD's capable of treating what we were trained to do (trained in our mind... maybe not yours.......but knowlege is available everywhere.........not just in Allopathic medical schools).

 

[rpames]

Several good points as always.