why traditional rotating internship?

[Doc driven]

Thanks for your time. Why do people go into traditional rotating internship? is this because they can not match? is it paid or do you still have to take out loans? I appreciate your knowledge.

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[scpod]

Some specialties require a traditional rotating year first, then you match into the program the second year. Some states require it for DO licensure. Some people are unsure about what they want to do. Some people don't get their first choice (might have only picked one program or a highly competitive one) and want to try to match into a spot like it again next year. Yes, you get paid.

 

[Doc driven]

That sound positive. Thanks a lot. what does it involve?

 

[DrWBD]

That sound positive. Thanks a lot. what does it involve?

It involves wasting time and the government's money for a year.
It also gives your loans an extra year to grow if you decide to do an ACGME residency that doesn't recognize AOA-accredited rotating internships.
Traditional rotating internships only make sense nowadays if you're doing an osteopathic residency.

 

[psychbender]

That sound positive. Thanks a lot. what does it involve?

Per osteopathic.org

3. Traditional Rotating Year or first year to be served by any student who is undecided regarding specialty or one requiring AOA clinical training for eventual licensure or one intending second year ACGME residency. Content will include:
a. Family Practice 1 month
b. Internal Medicine 2 months
c. General Surgery 1 month
d. Pediatrics 1 month
e. Women Health (OB and/or office Gyn) 1 month
f. Elective 1 month
g. Selective 4 months
h. Integrated OMM/OPP across all rotations

 

[futuredo32]

If you do a traditional rotating internship, would it count as the first year of your osteopathic residency and allow you to start residency as a PGY-2?

 

[DOctorJay]

It involves wasting time and the government's money for a year.
It also gives your loans an extra year to grow if you decide to do an ACGME residency that doesn't recognize AOA-accredited rotating internships.
Traditional rotating internships only make sense nowadays if you're doing an osteopathic residency.

...or if you go into a specialty that requires an intern year that can be done elsewhere (known as residencies that match with an "advanced"/pgy2 position). some that come to mind are pm&r, anesthesia, radiology, dermatology. also, if you have any aspirations of practicing in "the 5 states" it makes sense to complete an AOA internship as opposed to doing a categorical/prelim med/prelim surg/transitional year through the allopathic match and then having the headache of resolution 42.

 

[(nicedream)]

It involves wasting time and the government's money for a year.
It also gives your loans an extra year to grow if you decide to do an ACGME residency that doesn't recognize AOA-accredited rotating internships.
Traditional rotating internships only make sense nowadays if you're doing an osteopathic residency.

Sounds like someone got screwed

 

[DrWBD]

Sounds like someone got screwed

Um, no. I'm licensed and board certified, no osteopathic rotating internship required.

 

[DrWBD]

...or if you go into a specialty that requires an intern year that can be done elsewhere (known as residencies that match with an "advanced"/pgy2 position). some that come to mind are pm&r, anesthesia, radiology, dermatology.

You should make darned sure that the AOA internship is approved by the ACGME advanced residency before going that route. Advanced residencies have no obligation to honor the rotating internship as equivalent to an ACGME TY/prelim year, and many don't. I know if I were a program director for any moderately competitive advanced residency I would have a huge problem with a D.O. who did their internship at some osteopathic hospital in the sticks somewhere.

also, if you have any aspirations of practicing in "the 5 states" it makes sense to complete an AOA internship as opposed to doing a categorical/prelim med/prelim surg/transitional year through the allopathic match and then having the headache of resolution 42.

Resolution 42 petition=an application to be filled out and mailed to the AOA.
Rotating internship= a year of being a scut monkey for little pay and no respect.

From my point of view, the Resolution 42 route makes more sense to me.

 

[DOCTORSAIB]

You should make darned sure that the AOA internship is approved by the ACGME advanced residency before going that route. Advanced residencies have no obligation to honor the rotating internship as equivalent to an ACGME TY/prelim year, and many don't. I know if I were a program director for any moderately competitive advanced residency I would have a huge problem with a D.O. who did their internship at some osteopathic hospital in the sticks somewhere.



Resolution 42 petition=an application to be filled out and mailed to the AOA.
Rotating internship= a year of being a scut monkey for little pay and no respect.

From my point of view, the Resolution 42 route makes more sense to me.

 

[Bond8204]

Whoa whoa whoa. Look at all osteopathic schools' match lists though (I'm looking at DMU and CCOM, which I had thought were two pretty respectable DO schools). Both put a substantial (20ish) number of students into traditional rotating programs or transitional year programs. What happens to these students? Do they have to scramble to match into something after their internship year?

 

[DrMidlife]

Whoa whoa whoa. Look at all osteopathic schools' match lists though (I'm looking at DMU and CCOM, which I had thought were two pretty respectable DO schools). Both put a substantial (20ish) number of students into traditional rotating programs or transitional year programs. What happens to these students? Do they have to scramble to match into something after their internship year?

I think these are mostly the folks who are doing what they're "supposed" to do for the AOA track. Matching into a residency for these folks isn't a scramble - if you look on opportunities.osteopathic.org, you'll see a number of residencies that start in year 2. The traditional rotating year is year 1.

 

[Bond8204]

you'll see a number of residencies that start in year 2. The traditional rotating year is year 1.

Interesting. Do you apply and match during your traditional rotating year or is that determined beforehand?

Edit: Also, could an actual current medical student or resident speak to this idea (I still value your input, Midlife, but it'd be good to hear from some others in the thick of it as well).

 

[DrMidlife]

it'd be good to hear from some others in the thick of it

Totally, me too.

 

[VALSALVA]

Ideally, you would match into an internship AND match into a residency program simulateously. Most people are so fortunate. Unfortunately, some people match into a residency program (beginning PGY-II) but don't match into an internship. These people scramble into an internship. Others match into an internship but not into a residency. Those folks can scramble into PGY-II positions if available or re-apply during their PGY-I year.

 

[Bond8204]

How difficult a time do people who match into trad rotating internships but not residencies have securing a residency? It's not like this really influences my decsion...I'm likely going to CCOM either way. But it's a nice thing to know.

How does one get oneself in the (seemingly terrible) position of securing a traditional rotating internship but not a residency?

 

[DrWBD]

How difficult a time do people who match into trad rotating internships but not residencies have securing a residency? It's not like this really influences my decsion...I'm likely going to CCOM either way. But it's a nice thing to know.

I'm not sure if there is an exact answer to your question.
It depends a lot on what residency you're trying to get into. If you're looking for an AOA Family Medicine residency, for example, there are unmatched spots every year that even go unfilled after the post-match scramble. More competitive residencies usually fill in the match, and you'd likely have a harder time getting into one of those.

How does one get oneself in the (seemingly terrible) position of securing a traditional rotating internship but not a residency?

Not interviewing at or ranking enough residency programs, the caliber of your competition, the competitiveness of the residency you're applying to, and just plain luck all play a role here.

 

[DOctorJay]

You should make darned sure that the AOA internship is approved by the ACGME advanced residency before going that route. Advanced residencies have no obligation to honor the rotating internship as equivalent to an ACGME TY/prelim year, and many don't. I know if I were a program director for any moderately competitive advanced residency I would have a huge problem with a D.O. who did their internship at some osteopathic hospital in the sticks somewhere.



Resolution 42 petition=an application to be filled out and mailed to the AOA.
Rotating internship= a year of being a scut monkey for little pay and no respect.

From my point of view, the Resolution 42 route makes more sense to me.

my residency accepts the DO intern year, which is not in the sticks
my intern year pays more than most PGY-3 years

 

[Bond8204]

The consensus seems to me that a Traditional Rotating Internship can be ok, but you better be darn well planned out if you end up in one.

 

[Concubine]

I'm a bit confused. If you do an AOA approved residency, do you have to do the traditional rotating internship or can you elect not to?

 

[VALSALVA]

I'm a bit confused. If you do an AOA approved residency, do you have to do the traditional rotating internship or can you elect not to?

Depends on what field you are in. Some fields require a traditional internship/transitional year/ before beginning the residency. Examples include but are not exclusive to: Gas, PM&R, Rads, Eye, a handful of EM programs and others. Some fields don't require an internship year that those would include things like FM, IM, most EM programs and Surgery.

 

[TexasTriathlete]

I know several people headed to derm next year who are doing an internship at my hospital right now. Also a couple headed to gas.

 

[Concubine]

Depends on what field you are in. Some fields require a traditional internship/transitional year/ before beginning the residency. Examples include but are not exclusive to: Gas, PM&R, Rads, Eye, a handful of EM programs and others. Some fields don't require an internship year that those would include things like FM, IM, most EM programs and Surgery.

So, if I understand correctly, the traditional rotating year will under normal circumstances allow you to enter the residency your second year as a PGY-2, except in the five states?

I'm only asking because I will be attending OUCOM this fall, and the out-of-state contract may be fulfilled by doing your AOA approved residency in the state of Ohio...which I am planning on doing if at all possible.

 

[JaggerPlate]

I know several people headed to derm next year who are doing an internship at my hospital right now. Also a couple headed to gas.

Do you match derm and internship together or do you actually apply for derm residencies after the rotating internship? The reason I ask is because you never see derm matches on a match list (which is part of why people think DO derm programs don't exits or you can't be a DO derm), but for something like PM&R you see it (and all are dual or MD).

 

[scpod]

Do you match derm and internship together or do you actually apply for derm residencies after the rotating internship? The reason I ask is because you never see derm matches on a match list (which is part of why people think DO derm programs don't exits or you can't be a DO derm), but for something like PM&R you see it (and all are dual or MD).

There are a handful of AOA specialies that require a separate internship requiring you to match later. Its now called the Option 3 OGME 1-T. The specialties requiring thata are:

Dermatology
Occupational/Preventive Medicine
Physical Medicine and Rehabilitation
Proctology

Some require a rotating internship, BUT you automatically match into the second year (1st year of residency) at the same time. Note that you may actually be doing your intern year at a different facility, though. Those are:

Diagnostic Radiology,
Neurology
Neuromusculoskeletal Medicine/Osteopathic Manipulative Medicine
Ophthalmology
Pathology (currently no programs)
Psychiatry
Radiation Oncology

In some specialties you match straight into the first residency year and get credit for completing the internship. Those are:

Anesthesiology
Family Practice and FP/EM
Integrated Family Practice and Neuromusculoskeletal Medicine.
Emergency Medicine
Internal Medicine
General Surgery, Neurological Surgery, Orthopedic Surgery and Urological Surgery
Internal Medicine/Pediatrics
Obstetrics and Gynecology
Otolaryngology Facial Plastic Surgery
Pediatrics

 

[TexasTriathlete]

JaggerPlate: these people matched their derm and their internship at the same time. Or maybe not exactly the same time, but they have all known where they were headed when they started the internship. I think it typically shows up as having matched to an internship on the match lists.

 

[VALSALVA]

JaggerPlate: these people matched their derm and their internship at the same time. Or maybe not exactly the same time, but they have all known where they were headed when they started the internship. I think it typically shows up as having matched to an internship on the match lists.

Yes. On match day, these people (and others like Gas, Rads, etc) find out where they are going for their internship/transitional year AND where they will do their residency beginning PGY-II.

As an aside, some allopathic residency programs accept the osteopathic internship as a substitute for a transitional year. This isn't universal but common and institution dependent.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Yes. On match day, these people (and others like Gas, Rads, etc) find out where they are going for their internship/transitional year AND where they will do their residency beginning PGY-II.

As an aside, some allopathic residency programs accept the osteopathic internship as a substitute for a transitional year. This isn't universal but common and institution dependent.

Thats interesting. The thing scpod posted made it seem like you enter your internship and still have to apply to programs at a later date.

 

[TexasTriathlete]

The interns I am thinking of are all MD's, and the internship programs are (obviously) allopathic, as are their future residency programs. I know these people from the hospital where I work, which is part of the UT system.

One girl going into derm, and another girl going into gas, are both very hot. I don't mean that they're kind of pretty, and the fact that they're doctors makes them hot. I mean that if you saw them out at a bar, and they told you they were doctors, you wouldn't believe them.

 

[JaggerPlate]

The interns I am thinking of are all MD's, and the internship programs are (obviously) allopathic, as are their future residency programs. I know these people from the hospital where I work, which is part of the UT system.

One girl going into derm, and another girl going into gas, are both very hot. I don't mean that they're kind of pretty, and the fact that they're doctors makes them hot. I mean that if you saw them out at a bar, and they told you they were doctors, you wouldn't believe them.

Ah gotcha. I thought they were DOs not MDs. I get it.

 

[scpod]

Thats interesting. The thing scpod posted made it seem like you enter your internship and still have to apply to programs at a later date.

For AOA derm residencies, you do.

 

[VALSALVA]

Thats interesting. The thing scpod posted made it seem like you enter your internship and still have to apply to programs at a later date.

Only in those four fields...derm, procto, etc. All the other osteo and every single allo field are as I described (including derm, etc). I think the osteo derm, procto, etc. thing is relatively new and, frankly, ******ed.

Also, if you intend to do an osteopathic internship, then an allopathic residency in one of those 4 (derm, procto, PM&R, etc) you behave like a allo applicant and apply to both simultaneously.

 

[scpod]

....I think the osteo derm, procto, etc. thing is relatively new and, frankly, ******ed....

Yes, on both accounts-- new and ******ed. It started with the resolution in July 2006 to restructure the traditional internship. Each college gt to pick their choice from the three options they were given. Technically, the new rules take effect July 2008.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Only in those four fields...derm, procto, etc. All the other osteo and every single allo field are as I described (including derm, etc). I think the osteo derm, procto, etc. thing is relatively new and, frankly, ******ed.

Also, if you intend to do an osteopathic internship, then an allopathic residency in one of those 4 (derm, procto, PM&R, etc) you behave like a allo applicant and apply to both simultaneously.

Yeah, seems overly complicated.

 

[ObGynDO]

Ideally, you would match into an internship AND match into a residency program simulateously. Most people are so fortunate. Unfortunately, some people match into a residency program (beginning PGY-II) but don't match into an internship. These people scramble into an internship. Others match into an internship but not into a residency. Those folks can scramble into PGY-II positions if available or re-apply during their PGY-I year.

Sorry, this may have been answered somewhere before. A program is offering me a traditional DO rotating internship and says that it will put me in its "Ob/GYN interest track" so that I accumulate enough credit during the internship rotations to gain PGY-2 status the following year. (ie. using electives to do more Ob/gyn rotations and counting ER rotation as ER GYN time) Would the PGY-2 status apply to both osteopathic and allopathic programs? People have told me that this is not possible and that the PD is out of his mind. Can someone shed some light on this? If it is true, how do you apply to acquire a PGY-2 Ob/Gyn position?

In this case, Does PGY-2 = OGME-2 & AGME-2?

 

[theresa83]

ObGynDO: were you able to get this question answered? can you share with me what you heard?

 

[Buckeye(OH)]

There are two reasons you would do a trad year:

1. you didnt match (seems to be more common than 2)
2. You are doing an ACGME residency

 

[Jamers]

The interns I am thinking of are all MD's, and the internship programs are (obviously) allopathic, as are their future residency programs. I know these people from the hospital where I work, which is part of the UT system.

One girl going into derm, and another girl going into gas, are both very hot. I don't mean that they're kind of pretty, and the fact that they're doctors makes them hot. I mean that if you saw them out at a bar, and they told you they were doctors, you wouldn't believe them.

I just realized this tread was brought back from the dead. Oh well, I just follow the crowd anyways.



Soooo...Like scale of one to ten, ten hot?

 

[DrWBD]

There are two reasons you would do a trad year:

1. you didnt match (seems to be more common than 2)
2. You are doing an ACGME residency

I just realized this thread was brought back from the dead. Oh well, I just follow the crowd anyways.

Just wanted to add to #2 - "an ACGME residency that requires a preliminary year". In ACGME residencies like Internal Medicine, Pediatrics, or General Surgery, the rotating internship does not replace the PGY-1 year and would need to be repeated.

The rotating internship...I remember people who did ACGME residency training in medicine but insisted on doing an AOA rotating internship first, because their school convinced them they 'needed' to, and they didn't question. This was before Resolution 42. When the Resolution 42 exemption came around, many of these folks made no secret of being annoyed at residents like me who had the same end result (AOA approval of the intern year) without actually having to waste a year in an ORI.

 

[JaggerPlate]

You do em' for AOA derm baby!!!!

 

[abbottje]

I hear at my school heavy rumors that the AOA rotating intern year is going to be completely done away with in the next two years... is there any truth to this??? Are there similar rumors of this at other osteopathic schools???

 

[Kuba]

I'm going to do allopathic surgery, and I am strongly considering doing a TRI first. Most surgical programs won't be happy about you trying to do family med, internal med, ob/gyn, etc your intern year when you are supposed to be only doing surgical months. Some allow it tho.

 

[NK1Positive]

If you match ACGME in one of those "resolution 42" states are you required to do a trad. osteo intern year before starting the ACGME route? Are there any legal issues?

 

[MaximusD]

I'm going to do allopathic surgery, and I am strongly considering doing a TRI first. Most surgical programs won't be happy about you trying to do family med, internal med, ob/gyn, etc your intern year when you are supposed to be only doing surgical months. Some allow it tho.

Going to the darkside eh? (surgery...)

 

[dermpathdoc]

I hear at my school heavy rumors that the AOA rotating intern year is going to be completely done away with in the next two years... is there any truth to this??? Are there similar rumors of this at other osteopathic schools???

in pipeline thru BOS to Board of trustees to be demo'd...

 

[timmah2k]

Is it difficult to match categorical anesthesiology after a traditional year (covering my bases if I don't match the first time around).

If you can match, would it be as a pgy1 or pgy2?

Thanks.

 

[CuttinEmUp]

will doing a traditional year count as my first of year of residency if i match into an EM program after? will i start as a PGY-2?

 

[Omar-57]

i've read through what i can so far but i'm still confused.

i'm thinking about doing an AOA trad intern year and then some military pay back time

then

apply from residency. Would doing an allopathic internship year when the military scholarship time is up be possible?

to allow for applying for an allo residency after completing the allo internship?

i'm confused about the funding issues.

the military time would be 4 years if i were to take this path.

thanks in advance, i just need to know, b/c the scramble into an allo intern year seems frightening. AND i may want to stay DO when residency time comes anyway.

separate question: are the DO residency programs currently growing?

personal perspective on mil scholarship: they respect DOs, and they treat you fairly.

 

[DuxburyPembroke]

i've read through what i can so far but i'm still confused.
i'm thinking about doing an AOA trad intern year and then some military pay back time then apply from residency. Would doing an allopathic internship year when the military scholarship time is up be possible?
to allow for applying for an allo residency after completing the allo internship?
i'm confused about the funding issues.
the military time would be 4 years if i were to take this path.
thanks in advance, i just need to know, b/c the scramble into an allo intern year seems frightening. AND i may want to stay DO when residency time comes anyway.
personal perspective on mil scholarship: they respect DOs, and they treat you fairly.

I think that most students on military scholarships enter the military match and do military residencies which are all allo and also all AOA-approved, so you don't have to worry about all that stuff.