Why podiatrists complain about salary?

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demayette

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I know a pod who finished his residency in 2008 and bought a 5000+ square foot house in mid 2009 in the most selective neighbourhood in South FL. If pod dont make a lot of money, how come that pod can afford such house when I know he was eating chicken noodles almost every day when he was at Barry Universy pod school? I mean he was not a rich kid.

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I know a pod who finished his residency in 2008 and bought a 5000+ square foot house in mid 2009 in the most selective neighbourhood in South FL. If pod dont make a lot of money, how come that pod can afford such house when I know he was eating chicken noodles almost every day when he was at Barry Universy pod school? I mean he was not a rich kid.

Maybe his wifey comes from money.

If not that then maybe he landed a sweet F/A job in a ortho practice that is paying way above the salary avg (highly unlikely in most cases).

Or maybe he won the lottery or is the second coming of Tony Montana in the FL area.
 
within any profession or business there is potential to make lots of money.

Not everyone will be in the same boat. Some will have holes and sink.
 
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People, regardless of the profession, will always complain about money (usually because they don't know how to manage it). I'm just starting out in practice so I'm at the LOWEST point of my earning potential. I have a wife who stays home with my 4 kids and we live very comfortably already.

I have friends in medicine, law, business, etc. Some of them are CONSTANTLY complaining about money. It's because they spend every cent they make and they are horrible with managing it.
 
People, regardless of the profession, will always complain about money (usually because they don't know how to manage it). I'm just starting out in practice so I'm at the LOWEST point of my earning potential. I have a wife who stays home with my 4 kids and we live very comfortably already.

your attitude is refreshing
 
First of all, you can't count anyone's money or "assume" where the money originated. It would be suprising that anyone would be able to purchase a home of that value after only 2 years in practice.

There are many sources of income, including family money, inheritance money, spouse money, former investment money, etc.

Additionally, some people simply like to show what they've got. I have plenty of neighbors, friends, acquaintances, etc., who have huge homes, vacation homes, exotic cars, etc., yet have zero dollars in the bank or no furniture in those homes or are in huge debt.

This isn't a great economy and we really don't know where health care is going. I read a stat today that I'm not sure I believe so I will have to check the source. However, it stated that 43% of practicing DPM's are making less than $75,000 annually.

I know of a lot of DPM's complaining, and I can tell you that although I'm part of a large and very successful group, we are all working very hard for our money, much harder than we did years ago. Everyone in our group puts in long hours and treats a large number of patients and we provide coverage at four different hospitals.

Not everyone will have the glory of being employed by an orthopedic group, so be prepared to work hard, do it "all" and the financial rewards will come. But you'll drive yourself crazy if you try to figure out how one of your colleagues is driving a more expensive car, living in a bigger home, taking more exotic vacations, etc.. because you really will never know the ENTIRE story.
 
First of all, you can't count anyone's money or "assume" where the money originated. It would be suprising that anyone would be able to purchase a home of that value after only 2 years in practice.

There are many sources of income, including family money, inheritance money, spouse money, former investment money, etc.

Additionally, some people simply like to show what they've got. I have plenty of neighbors, friends, acquaintances, etc., who have huge homes, vacation homes, exotic cars, etc., yet have zero dollars in the bank or no furniture in those homes or are in huge debt.

This isn't a great economy and we really don't know where health care is going. I read a stat today that I'm not sure I believe so I will have to check the source. However, it stated that 43% of practicing DPM's are making less than $75,000 annually.

I know of a lot of DPM's complaining, and I can tell you that although I'm part of a large and very successful group, we are all working very hard for our money, much harder than we did years ago. Everyone in our group puts in long hours and treats a large number of patients and we provide coverage at four different hospitals.

Not everyone will have the glory of being employed by an orthopedic group, so be prepared to work hard, do it "all" and the financial rewards will come. But you'll drive yourself crazy if you try to figure out how one of your colleagues is driving a more expensive car, living in a bigger home, taking more exotic vacations, etc.. because you really will never know the ENTIRE story.
It would be hard for me to believe that stat.
 
When you start counting other people's money you will always be wrong. Nobody knows anyone's business. It's complicated but the years will reveal that the flash and glitter is just that...

Hard work. A good residency. Great skills personable and filled with expectations along with student loans.

Ahh...Podiatry, salaries, money, aspirations expectations and then: Reality.

As the Sci-Fi author Phillip K. Dick once said, "Reality is that which occurs when we stop believing in it."

About this time in your careers -resident student or starting out- you see all sorts of things which might indicate that yes, you too can have the things promised in podiatry school. The longer the expanse of time in practice - the more remote those promises become.

Please, I've heard it all...This is NEGATIVITY, its some sad sack looser who's been complaining and putting down podiatry and on and on. No.

Podiatry is not what you expect.
 
I know that some of the older podiatrists complain because of the large cuts that occurred in the 90's. They talk about the "good ole days" when they got $1,500 for a bunion and now they're lucky to get half of that. Just a guess, but I would think fresh graduates out of residency probably won't complain quite as much because even that $75k is significantly better than their residency stipend.
 
If you go into it - podiatry - for the money you will have ample opportunities to do well financially. There are so many different avenues to produce a revenue stream that you might just get what you want. With respect to comparing incomes of other DPMs and yourself. Please don't do that. Just focus on yourself.

If you think that there is some career opportunities outside of clinical practice regarding salaried positions, this has unfortunately not come to pass. I am suggesting that while in school you might consider something to fall back on as an addition degree or training so you can augment your income while building a practice.

Good luck.
 
People, regardless of the profession, will always complain about money (usually because they don't know how to manage it). I'm just starting out in practice so I'm at the LOWEST point of my earning potential. I have a wife who stays home with my 4 kids and we live very comfortably already.

I have friends in medicine, law, business, etc. Some of them are CONSTANTLY complaining about money. It's because they spend every cent they make and they are horrible with managing it.

I don't complain about the money I make, I complain about the majority of it that I have to pay in taxes (fed 34% - going to 36%, state 9.3%, franchise tax, sales tax, oxygen tax, illegal immigrant tax, etc.). :mad:
 
I don't complain about the money I make, I complain about the majority of it that I have to pay in taxes (fed 34% - going to 36%, state 9.3%, franchise tax, sales tax, oxygen tax, illegal immigrant tax, etc.). :mad:


Amen.

One of my kids (he is 20) accidentally saw my check pay stub. He said he didn't realize I "made that much". I laughed, because he was looking at the amount that was taken out in taxes, not the actual gross!

I do well, and my point isn't that I'm the most successful DPM out there, but taxes are ridiculous, and you also have to realize how much is "a lot" to a college student.

I thought it was pretty funny.
 
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Amen.

One of my kids (he is 20) accidentally saw my check pay stub. He said he didn't realize I "made that much". I laughed, because he was looking at the amount that was taken out in taxes, not the actual gross!

I do well, and my point isn't that I'm the most successful DPM out there, but taxes are ridiculous, and you also have to realize how much is "a lot" to a college student.

I thought it was pretty funny.

My 20 year old is the same. However, she still believes that I am her ATM machine. I keep changing the password but somehow she still gets withdraws LOL. I tell her how many co-pays it takes to get her those new jeans and pay tuition. Praying she finds a wealthy spouse soon!

On a serious note I have a suggestion for the newer graduates: When managed care started, I saw the writing on the wall so I came up with a game plan. Starting in the 1980s I began to try to substitute patient care income with non patient generated revenue. I began to speak for honorariums, do medical malpractice expert work(99% defense), consulting, and other activites. Each year I would try to substitute a percent or two. This way, my income became diversified and affected less by whims of the insurer. Non-covered services also provided a way to stabilize my income. It has been very beneficial to me after 25 years. I am lucky now because doing a triple arthodesis or ankle fusion for 600-700 dollars doesn't drive me crazy. I can also accept more indigent patients for both altruistic and teaching purposes without worrying about the botton line as much. Everyone may not have all of those opportunities but even if you can have 10% of your income not dependent upon insurers then it will help.
 
Amen.

One of my kids (he is 20) accidentally saw my check pay stub. He said he didn't realize I "made that much". I laughed, because he was looking at the amount that was taken out in taxes, not the actual gross!

I do well, and my point isn't that I'm the most successful DPM out there, but taxes are ridiculous, and you also have to realize how much is "a lot" to a college student.

I thought it was pretty funny.
That is a good one...
 
For those that are practicing, does the amount of taxes taken out make it difficult to pay back student loans and live comfortably? Not that salary is everything, but if I'm spending 8 years paying for school and coming out 200000 in dept, I hope to make enough to be able to comfortably start paying them off during and (mainly) after residency. I mean 36% of a $200,000 salary is another salary in itself. This is the only thing that makes me wonder whether being a physician, whether it be a podiatric physician or any other specialty, is the best of ideas now. I know what I want to do, but I want to make a comfortable living and not just get by after all of these years in school. I know this has been debated a million times on this site, but after a few years in practice, would the 125k-150k NET income be realistic? I realize it varies, but I don't want to have unrealistic expectations.
 
For those that are practicing, does the amount of taxes taken out make it difficult to pay back student loans and live comfortably? Not that salary is everything, but if I'm spending 8 years paying for school and coming out 200000 in dept, I hope to make enough to be able to comfortably start paying them off during and (mainly) after residency. I mean 36% of a $200,000 salary is another salary in itself. This is the only thing that makes me wonder whether being a physician, whether it be a podiatric physician or any other specialty, is the best of ideas now. I know what I want to do, but I want to make a comfortable living and not just get by after all of these years in school. I know this has been debated a million times on this site, but after a few years in practice, would the 125k-150k NET income be realistic? I realize it varies, but I don't want to have unrealistic expectations.

Everything is relative but all I can say is in the 25 years I have been doing this, the salaries are the best I have ever seen. I train residents and the job offers that come to our program are astounding. Sometimes I am tempted to apply. Look nothing is easy and you need to be well trained, positiive, and have a good work ethic. But in the scheme of things historically our profession is doing great. Everyone pays and complains of taxes. Most of our grads are making take home gross of 250-300,000 after a few years. Several are close to 400-500 K. We have an awesome program but even the average resident is doing well.
 
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Everything is relative but all I can say is in the 25 years I have been doing this, the salaries are the best I have seen. I train residents and the job offers that come to our program are astounding. Sometimes I am tempted to apply. Look nothing is easy and you need to be well trained, positiive, and have a good work ethic. But in the scheme of things historically our profession is doing great. Everyone pays and complains of taxes. Most of our grads are making take home gross of 250-300,000 after a few years. Several are close to 400-500 K. We have an awesome program but still even the average resident is doing well.
Thanks for the reply. That’s very good to hear. It’s amazing because I hear a lot of negativity surrounding this profession, yet not a single podiatrist I shadowed had anything negative to say about their job for the most part. Pod would be the perfect fit for me as I am a cross country/track runner. The most common injuries that leave us out of the big races are foot problems. Additionally, it seems like a lot of podiatrist get involved in the sports medicine aspect of the profession, even if that is something they do on the side. Many pods are medical directors in the big marathons and triathlons, which is very appealing to me. Plus the fact that the profession in general has controllable hours and allows me to do surgery as well as some aspects of derm, vascular, plastics, trauma, etc. is a positive. It’s great to hear from someone else in the field who thinks this profession is going in the right direction. I’m pretty sure this is the field I am going into, but as most students do, I have some concerns and fears about not only this profession but any medical profession. However, it seems like if you have good training and work hard, you’re bound to be successful eventually.
 
Thanks for the reply. That's very good to hear. It's amazing because I hear a lot of negativity surrounding this profession, yet not a single podiatrist I shadowed had anything negative to say about their job for the most part. Pod would be the perfect fit for me as I am a cross country/track runner. The most common injuries that leave us out of the big races are foot problems. Additionally, it seems like a lot of podiatrist get involved in the sports medicine aspect of the profession, even if that is something they do on the side. Many pods are medical directors in the big marathons and triathlons, which is very appealing to me. Plus the fact that the profession in general has controllable hours and allows me to do surgery as well as some aspects of derm, vascular, plastics, trauma, etc. is a positive. It's great to hear from someone else in the field who thinks this profession is going in the right direction. I'm pretty sure this is the field I am going into, but as most students do, I have some concerns and fears about not only this profession but any medical profession. However, it seems like if you have good training and work hard, you're bound to be successful eventually.

Yea, most forums I read lean negative. They are excellent places to vent and many who frequent them are venters. I am glad to spread some good news but to be balanced there are a few graduates who have struggled. I can sum them up as: wanting to practice in an already crowded city, waiting until the last minute to find a job, not wanting to work hard, and some Moms who want part time. Most DPMS I know are doing well. I know of no one making less than 150,000.

Are there DPM failures? Sure. Some of them should have never been accepted into school to begin with. The schools to fill their classes sometimes accept people who would fail in any profession. Others make bad decisions or have a terrible business/money sense. A few have poor people skills, psychological problems, or abuse etoh or drugs. Some are just plain unlucky and the main employer in town closed and all of their patients left or have lost insurance.
 
podfather,

Considering the amount of patients I treat and the hours I work a week, I want to apply for your program.

I know of very few guys that are actually earning 400,00-500,000 k annually (as salary), and I know of some VERY large practices. As you know, to be able to pay someone those kinds of numbers, they would have to generate over one million dollars a year or more considering overhead.

That's a pretty hefty number for one practitioner. With today's reimbursements at an all time "low", in my opinion, those are tough numbers to hit.

I agree about earning extra income via lecturing and receiving an honorarium. However, in a group practice this sometimes becomes difficult because partners and associates started to get upset when I was out of the office (although I was earning income for the practice), because it meant someone else had to pick up my patient load.

I agree 100% regarding working with attorneys. I have done malpractice work, with the overwhelming being defense work, and have also done product liability work, etc. I also spend a lot of time reviewing cases to see if there is any merit. Often, there is a big difference between an unfortunate result and malpractice, and some attorneys and patients don't understand this fact. Therefore, I will review a case and tell the attorney that although there was less than an optimal result, there was no malpractice or break in the standard of care. The beauty of doing legal work is that it's about the only time that we actually receive 100% of what we bill.
 
podfather,

Considering the amount of patients I treat and the hours I work a week, I want to apply for your program.

I know of very few guys that are actually earning 400,00-500,000 k annually (as salary), and I know of some VERY large practices. As you know, to be able to pay someone those kinds of numbers, they would have to generate over one million dollars a year or more considering overhead.

That's a pretty hefty number for one practitioner. With today's reimbursements at an all time "low", in my opinion, those are tough numbers to hit.

I agree about earning extra income via lecturing and receiving an honorarium. However, in a group practice this sometimes becomes difficult because partners and associates started to get upset when I was out of the office (although I was earning income for the practice), because it meant someone else had to pick up my patient load.

I agree 100% regarding working with attorneys. I have done malpractice work, with the overwhelming being defense work, and have also done product liability work, etc. I also spend a lot of time reviewing cases to see if there is any merit. Often, there is a big difference between an unfortunate result and malpractice, and some attorneys and patients don't understand this fact. Therefore, I will review a case and tell the attorney that although there was less than an optimal result, there was no malpractice or break in the standard of care. The beauty of doing legal work is that it's about the only time that we actually receive 100% of what we bill.

First of all let me be clear I do not make that much and also work very hard. I have 3 ex-residents who are all out less than 10 years making that kind of money. All work in orthopedic groups. The majority of our grads are in the 200-300 range. I read in a Pittsburgh newspaper that there was a DPM who was being paid by a local hospital..................ready................sit down...................825,000! I read it three times and then checked and it was true.

Most of my closest friends and some of the bigger names are in the 250-400 range. The job offers that are coming in to the residents have starting salaries in the 100-150 range. I think about when we came out and how there were no jobs we either bought a practice or opened cold. Had to fight for privileges and referrals. Things have surely changed.
 
First of all let me be clear I do not make that much and also work very hard. I have 3 ex-residents who are all out less than 10 years making that kind of money. All work in orthopedic groups. The majority of our grads are in the 200-300 range. I read in a Pittsburgh newspaper that there was a DPM who was being paid by a local hospital..................ready................sit down...................825,000! I read it three times and then checked and it was true.

Most of my closest friends and some of the bigger names are in the 250-400 range. The job offers that are coming in to the residents have starting salaries in the 100-150 range. I think about when we came out and how there were no jobs we either bought a practice or opened cold. Had to fight for privileges and referrals. Things have surely changed.
Are these net or gross? Either way it's great to hear!!
 
825,000????? What is this guy doing, surgery on cash paying Arab Shieks? I find that number staggering, especially if he is salaried by a hospital. The hospital has to accept the good and bad insurance, and he certainly isn't selling "products" or ancillary services if he's hospital based.

Therefore, I can't fathom how he can produce enough revenue for a hospital to not lose money paying that kind of salary. For one doctor to generate enough income to justify 825,000 is beyond my comprehension.

Our practice grosses several million dollars annually, yet my income isn't close to some of the numbers you've mentioned and has capped off the past few years due to lower reimbursements.

I will have to "assume" that it's a geographic thing, because I know of very few colleagues that are making in the $250,000-$400,000 range, and I know some big hitters in my area. And I just spoke with a few residents who graduated from a "decent" (not spectacular) program and they were all being offered extremely low starting salary offers by DPM groups in my area. None had received orthopedic offers.

Unfortunately, not every grad is going to receive huge offers, and as I've stated before, there WILL be a saturation point. The orthopedic jobs will eventually start to diminish and the 3-4 year well trained surgical DPM will not be a novelty. So I hope that a lot of these residents will be willing, able and ready to practice more than "surgery".

Because in reality, surgical intervention only accounts for a very small portion of my practice, and probably even less in most practices.
 
825,000????? What is this guy doing, surgery on cash paying Arab Shieks? I find that number staggering, especially if he is salaried by a hospital. The hospital has to accept the good and bad insurance, and he certainly isn't selling "products" or ancillary services if he's hospital based.

Therefore, I can't fathom how he can produce enough revenue for a hospital to not lose money paying that kind of salary. For one doctor to generate enough income to justify 825,000 is beyond my comprehension.

Our practice grosses several million dollars annually, yet my income isn't close to some of the numbers you've mentioned and has capped off the past few years due to lower reimbursements.

I will have to "assume" that it's a geographic thing, because I know of very few colleagues that are making in the $250,000-$400,000 range, and I know some big hitters in my area. And I just spoke with a few residents who graduated from a "decent" (not spectacular) program and they were all being offered extremely low starting salary offers by DPM groups in my area. None had received orthopedic offers.

Unfortunately, not every grad is going to receive huge offers, and as I've stated before, there WILL be a saturation point. The orthopedic jobs will eventually start to diminish and the 3-4 year well trained surgical DPM will not be a novelty. So I hope that a lot of these residents will be willing, able and ready to practice more than "surgery".

Because in reality, surgical intervention only accounts for a very small portion of my practice, and probably even less in most practices.

There are some geographical considerations. Having practiced for awhile in the north, reimbursement, patient demographics, payer mix, and historical perspective of Podiatry are quite different. The median age in my city is 38 compared to the 60s in many northern cities.

I agree the orthopedic and multispecialty options will become more competitive with time but right now they are very good. Since the taboo has been crossed by some groups others are opening up to trained DPMs particularly with the ortho foot fellows in shortage.
 
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It is ironic that many ortho groups are finally "seeing the light". However, unfortunately I'm not 100% confident that it's truly out of respect or if it's sometimes a matter of economics.

I know of several orthopedic groups who were relatively anti-podiatry until recently, and were often resistant to allowing podiatric residents scrub in on their cases. These groups wanted to compete with local DPM's who were "scoring" most of the foot surgical cases.

However, when they realized that hiring a foot & ankle orthopedic surgeon would set them back a minimum of $350,000-400,000, each group suddenly realized a well trained DPM started looking very attractive. For all intensive purposes, the DPM would be providing the same care (with the exception of orthopedic call) for significantly less money.

I sincerely believe the orthopedic community has discovered this "bargain", and deep down has always realized the quality of our training, though they never acknowledged that fact.
 
It is ironic that many ortho groups are finally "seeing the light". However, unfortunately I'm not 100% confident that it's truly out of respect or if it's sometimes a matter of economics.

I know of several orthopedic groups who were relatively anti-podiatry until recently, and were often resistant to allowing podiatric residents scrub in on their cases. These groups wanted to compete with local DPM's who were "scoring" most of the foot surgical cases.

However, when they realized that hiring a foot & ankle orthopedic surgeon would set them back a minimum of $350,000-400,000, each group suddenly realized a well trained DPM started looking very attractive. For all intensive purposes, the DPM would be providing the same care (with the exception of orthopedic call) for significantly less money.

I sincerely believe the orthopedic community has discovered this "bargain", and deep down has always realized the quality of our training, though they never acknowledged that fact.

Couldn't agree more
 
It is because of threads like this one that I'm an avid follower of the DPM forums. You soon to be fully licensed DPMs are lucky to have ample attendings (PADPM and Podfather, Natch and Diabeticfootdr, Jonwill, Feli (although not an attending), and others) willing to speak honestly and informatively about the profession. I must state however, that the thread with Diabeticfootdr and Podfather going at it: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=720972 was my all time favorite. Too bad I'm not into ortho, it prob would have put me at a better position to converse with you fellows. :D
 
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825,000????? What is this guy doing, surgery on cash paying Arab Shieks? I find that number staggering, especially if he is salaried by a hospital. The hospital has to accept the good and bad insurance, and he certainly isn't selling "products" or ancillary services if he's hospital based.

Therefore, I can't fathom how he can produce enough revenue for a hospital to not lose money paying that kind of salary. For one doctor to generate enough income to justify 825,000 is beyond my comprehension.

Our practice grosses several million dollars annually, yet my income isn't close to some of the numbers you've mentioned and has capped off the past few years due to lower reimbursements.

I will have to "assume" that it's a geographic thing, because I know of very few colleagues that are making in the $250,000-$400,000 range, and I know some big hitters in my area. And I just spoke with a few residents who graduated from a "decent" (not spectacular) program and they were all being offered extremely low starting salary offers by DPM groups in my area. None had received orthopedic offers.

Unfortunately, not every grad is going to receive huge offers, and as I've stated before, there WILL be a saturation point. The orthopedic jobs will eventually start to diminish and the 3-4 year well trained surgical DPM will not be a novelty. So I hope that a lot of these residents will be willing, able and ready to practice more than "surgery".

Because in reality, surgical intervention only accounts for a very small portion of my practice, and probably even less in most practices.

It depends on how the hospital values the services. Our group is bringing in several million dollars in revenue to the hospital yearly. OR volume and inpatient volume are responsible for a majority of this. I haven't heard of a salary of $825k, but wow, good for them. However, I have many podiatric colleagues who are making $250-400k. I'm also in that range.

I agree with previous sentiments on the need to diversify your income. A mixture of reimbursement from patients, product sales, lecturing/consulting, and expert opinion work will help to soften any decrease from a single income source.
 
Also, it is hard work. Don't expect to achieve that kind of income without some sweat and sacrifices. I'm sitting in the OR lounge right now at 10:30 PM with 2 cases left to go. I operated last Friday all day until 11 PM.
 
diabeticfootdr,

I know you are quick to point out small details in my post and contradict those statements, such as my comment regarding salaries.

I didn't say I don't know ANY doctors or colleagues earning $250,000-$400,000, but I did say I know of "very few". I also did not mention my personal income since it's really not the business of anyone on this site, though I can assure you it's well above average.

But I'm happy to hear that you're making a good living, though I'm not really sure why you saw the need to advertise your earnings.

However, realistically, you have a relatively high profile and I'm confident that not everyone on this site has the potential to gain your earnings. Additionally, since you have a high profile and you are on the "lecture circuit", how much of your income is earned via honorariums???

Those types of incomes are nice to recommend, but are certainly limited in potential.

The REALITY is that the overwhelming majority of DPM's are presently, and will continue to be self employed or employed by a private practice and NOT by a large entity such as a hospital. Therefore, salaries will not be quite as "generous", I can guarantee that fact.

Once again, our practice is very large and generates several million dollars annually, and I know what our partners and associates earn.
 
Thanks for these posts! I'm getting the idea that a way to have a great practice is to do a surgical residency and then apply to an ortho group. Is this the general idea? Is it worth it to try for a 2 yr residency or is the 3 yr residency training landing the best jobs? Is it important to have training in ilizarov frame placement?

I went into conservative care practice because it appeared that this was where the need for podiatric care was. It was my mistake; there is no way a CC practitioner will make it on Medicare alone in my location, no way. As I reenter the residency search process again, what programs would you recommend? Is there a site that lists resident post grad placement and salary potential? Any programs that are more receptive to older grads so that we may go on to a successful surgical career? I begin visiting programs immediately and am considering this a full time job. I can visit any program for an unlimited time. Are the high caliber programs receptive to older candidates? :confused:
 
I'm not sure you read the post correctly. There are hundreds or better yet thousands of successful DPM's who are not working in orthopedic practices.

You can be extremely successful without working in an orthopedic practice or without working for a hospital. As a matter of fact, I know an extremely successful DPM who performs NO surgery. He does a lot of palliative care, a lot of "sports medicine", a lot or biomechanics/orthoses, etc., but does zero surgery. He is an excellent doctor and makes a very good living with a huge practice. And he's extremely happy, with no hospital responsibilities.

I also know of many excellent surgeons who don't routinely work with external frames/fixators. As a surgeon, even when you obtain training, you must always do what's best for your patient. That includes only performing procedures you do well and do often.

Just because you "did a few" during residency, does not make you proficient in the procedure. Therefore, I would recommend all those who have excellent training to tuck away their pride and know when to refer to a colleague or ask for help when you are planning on performing a procedure you rarely perform.

I am very well versed in surgery, but the nature of my practice and the location of my practice (near a world renowned pediatric orthopedic surgeon) does not result in me treating a lot of pediatric deformities. Therefore, if I see a child who needs significant reconstruction, I refer that surgery to a colleague with more pediatric experience, since it's something I rarely see.

So podpal, at this point I believe you should concentrate on obtaining ANY residency program that will allow you to gain surgical experience and that coveted piece of paper that you need, and not worry at the present time about landing a job with an orthopedic group, etc.

Every graduate I know is seeking that "nirvana" job with an orthopedic group, because for some reason that has some additional prestige. Those jobs are a hot commodity, but as I have predicted in the past, will also have a saturation point.

I would recommend placing ALL your efforts in landing a residency position and taking one day at a time. After you've successfully landed that position, you have to then concentrate on performing well and being the best resident in the program and becoming an excellent surgeon for your future patients. At that point you can finally worry about finding the best job offer.
 
diabeticfootdr,

I know you are quick to point out small details in my post and contradict those statements, such as my comment regarding salaries.

I didn't say I don't know ANY doctors or colleagues earning $250,000-$400,000, but I did say I know of "very few". I also did not mention my personal income since it's really not the business of anyone on this site, though I can assure you it's well above average.

But I'm happy to hear that you're making a good living, though I'm not really sure why you saw the need to advertise your earnings.

However, realistically, you have a relatively high profile and I'm confident that not everyone on this site has the potential to gain your earnings. Additionally, since you have a high profile and you are on the "lecture circuit", how much of your income is earned via honorariums???

Those types of incomes are nice to recommend, but are certainly limited in potential.

The REALITY is that the overwhelming majority of DPM's are presently, and will continue to be self employed or employed by a private practice and NOT by a large entity such as a hospital. Therefore, salaries will not be quite as "generous", I can guarantee that fact.

Once again, our practice is very large and generates several million dollars annually, and I know what our partners and associates earn.

You said you know of very few, I said I know of many. I wasn't trying to undermine your post, just to provide the reader with a different opinion. I didn't advertise my exact earnings. I agree, it's no one's business. I said it was between 250-400, the range which is in question. I feel it's important to let those in residency who are planning their lives know that those earnings are possible, and even likely, if you do things right.

I am in the range of 250-400 with just patient care and without any extra income from lecturing/consulting. But overall it adds a significant portion to my income.

Our practice also generates several millions of dollars a year (2 podiatrists, 1 vascular surgeon, 1 HBO doctor).

It's nice to think you could just go out and get a job as a doctor and make tons of money, but it really doesn't work that way in medicine. You could be comfortable. But to make the kind of money one deserves after 11 years of training, you have to also be a savvy business person. Not saying to act unethically, but to know how to bill properly, organize your time to do things that generate revenue and leave the other stuff to assistants. You have to be able to market yourself and your services to hospitals, health plans, and other doctors. It's a lot of work.
 
I'm a partner in an orthopaedic group and do very well but residents and students should NOT hold their breath for a position in an ortho group being the primary foot & ankle surgeon of the group because it is uncommon. I don't care how good you THINK your training is, you aren't entitled to anything and if you think that is going to get you a position in an ortho practice doing what you want to do, you are wrong. I'm afraid many of you planning for that ortho position are going to end up disappointed. Style your practice around what you like to do/what makes you happy regardless of the environment and work hard and you'll be fine. Be patient and the money will come. Ortho groups are a different animal and operate differently than most other practices. You guys are impressed by numbers over a mil a year in collections but our practice collected over 2 mil last month.
 
Excellent post which confirms the opinion I've expressed over and over again.

Although I know that there are presently orthopedic groups interested in hiring DPM's for the reasons I've already expressed, I've also stated that I don't feel that these positions are as abundant as many believe, and will eventually be harder and harder to find due to the popularity, perceived prestige and competition for these positions.

I also agree with the fact that the orthopedic practice is a completely different "animal". Podiatric practices that collect in the 7 figure mark are not extremely common, though I do know of many, and those practices are considered extremely successful. However, as you pointed out, orthopedic practices routinely bill out/collect this amount in a month or two due to the volume of patients and procedures they perform.

When I give my opinion on this matter, I'm accused of being "negative". I've stated many times that every DPM has the opportunity to make an excellent living if he/she is willing to work hard and hopefully practice ethically. But I also believe that it's unfair to some of the students and residents to tell only one side of the story. It's unrealistic to believe that every graduate is going to have the opportunity to be offered a high starting salary immediately upon completion of his/her residency.

But I have also stated that several years down the line, it often balances out with hard work. You have to be focused and have goals and overcome obstacles. If you don't obtain your desired residency, or you don't obtain that high paying initial job, you can work hard to obtain your goal and eventually find your niche and earn a good income and have a very rewarding career.
 
Excellent post which confirms the opinion I've expressed over and over again.

Although I know that there are presently orthopedic groups interested in hiring DPM's for the reasons I've already expressed, I've also stated that I don't feel that these positions are as abundant as many believe, and will eventually be harder and harder to find due to the popularity, perceived prestige and competition for these positions.

I also agree with the fact that the orthopedic practice is a completely different "animal". Podiatric practices that collect in the 7 figure mark are not extremely common, though I do know of many, and those practices are considered extremely successful. However, as you pointed out, orthopedic practices routinely bill out/collect this amount in a month or two due to the volume of patients and procedures they perform.

When I give my opinion on this matter, I'm accused of being "negative". I've stated many times that every DPM has the opportunity to make an excellent living if he/she is willing to work hard and hopefully practice ethically. But I also believe that it's unfair to some of the students and residents to tell only one side of the story. It's unrealistic to believe that every graduate is going to have the opportunity to be offered a high starting salary immediately upon completion of his/her residency.

But I have also stated that several years down the line, it often balances out with hard work. You have to be focused and have goals and overcome obstacles. If you don't obtain your desired residency, or you don't obtain that high paying initial job, you can work hard to obtain your goal and eventually find your niche and earn a good income and have a very rewarding career.

While looking for a job, it was my experience that ortho groups and hospitals could offer you more in the beginning (for obvious reasons). That was extremely attractive. The problem I found with those offers I received was that your pay didn't increase very much after that. So in the end, I took a private practice job that started out a little lower but had much more potential down the road. I guess the exception with ortho would be if you were somehow able to become a partner which is rare due to call and production issues but is possible (newankle). I think in MOST cases, private practice is much more lucrative in the long run.

As is the case with pre-pods, students, and residents (I was just there), it is sometimes hard to look down the road a couple years when you see a "big" number in the beginning :)
 
.... I read in a Pittsburgh newspaper that there was a DPM who was being paid by a local hospital..................ready................sit down...................825,000! I read it three times and then checked and it was true...
I think most of us know who you're referencing.

If it's RWM or ARC, they (and partners) produce in many more ways than just patient care (yet they do regularly see 80-100+ pts per day... each). They do a high volume of surgery, they run a residency that brings the hospital millions of GME dollars per year. Most importantly, through notoriety via publications + lecturing + leadership positions, they also have set up the hospital as a tertiary referral center for regional (and occasionally national) advanced F&A recon and limb salvage that brings the hospital a ton of patients and cases.
 
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While looking for a job, it was my experience that ortho groups and hospitals could offer you more in the beginning (for obvious reasons). That was extremely attractive. The problem I found with those offers I received was that your pay didn't increase very much after that. So in the end, I took a private practice job that started out a little lower but had much more potential down the road. I guess the exception with ortho would be if you were somehow able to become a partner which is rare due to call and production issues but is possible (newankle). I think in MOST cases, private practice is much more lucrative in the long run.

As is the case with pre-pods, students, and residents (I was just there), it is sometimes hard to look down the road a couple years when you see a "big" number in the beginning :)
Well said^^ :thumbup:

Every resident is focused on paying off their loans, getting 6 figures base and sign bonus off the bat, etc. If you try to see the forest through the trees, chances are that you'll be much happier in the end. Personally, I'd sure take 50k/yr + 30% and guaranteed expedited partnership with another well trained and well networked DPM or two who have a well run, ethical, and reputable practice with a booming referral base before I'd sign for 150k/yr + 10% to be the bunion and forefoot fracture guy with no available buy in with an ortho group or hospital system any day. Those ortho/hospital businesses obviously wouldn't be offering you those salaries if they weren't going to make money off of you as their employee. It all depends on the situation, your desires, and doing your homework, though...

The "ultimate" practice depends on what you want, what you do well, and what you do efficiently. You can't do it all yourself, so it's clearly important to surround yourself with the right people (skills, reputation, networking, politics, etc). Ideally, I think you'd want to achieve an efficient, low overhead group which has garnered a large volume of insured bunion, neuroma, fasciitis, paronychia, etc elective surgery patients... stuff you can easily do 4-6 cases of in a half day at the surg center without needing fancy sets, expert scrub tech, etc. You'd also want some wound care and a center to do it at for obvious reasoning of more services for your group to offer and a reliable, steady income source for a service that many ppl need.

Yeah, you still want some rearfoot elective and trauma also flowing through the office. In my honest estimation, though, the RF recon and trauma we all gawk about in conferences is mostly just to pad your ego and increase your practice's offerings since you'd want all the PCPs in the area to know that they can send your office consults or clinic pts for pretty much any pathology below the knee. You only really want acute trauma (FF or RF) if you get paid by the hospital to take the trauma call, it's a hospital/area where insured/working pts are fairly prevalent, or you feel you enjoy those cases so much you don't mind a dip in earnings/sleep. JMO

Ortho groups are neat since the venerable "orthopedic office" umbrella would tend to eliminate any MD/DPM referral bias which persists, but I think a lot of pod groups are honestly better just being the symbiotic "consulting group" for local ortho groups that they send knees, hips, etc and get sent some foot surg in return. That way, there's no bickering with your trauma, F&A, etc partners over who gets the Achilles, ankle fx, ankle desis, Jones fx, etc. There's also no needing to come up with a million plus for a buy in (if you are even offered buy-in?).
 
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Personally, I'd sure take 50k/yr + 30% and guaranteed expedited partnership with another well trained and well networked DPM or two who have a well run, ethical, and reputable practice with a booming referral base before I'd sign for 150k/yr + 10% to be the bunion and forefoot fracture guy with no available buy in with an ortho group or hospital system any day.
Sounds like a good plan. One cautionary statement would be to beware of a practice in which you don't get enough variety of cases to submit to ABPS. Worse yet would be to end up "the nail guy" at some practice where you get the C&C's while the Partners cherry pick.

I think a lot of pod groups are honestly better just being the symbiotic "consulting group" for local ortho groups that they send knees, hips, etc and get sent some foot surg in return. That way, there's no bickering with your trauma, F&A, etc partners over who gets the Achilles, ankle fx, ankle desis, Jones fx, etc. There's also no needing to come up with a million plus for a buy in (if you are even offered buy-in?).
I agree. The trick however is finding an ortho group who wants symbiosis. In my experience ortho groups gladly accept pod referrals but are reluctant to send cases back the other direction. Then again, I've only lived in places where the ortho groups had F/A orthopods on staff. I can't even get them to send ingrown nails. Instead they send those back to the PCP who then send them to me. C'mon, really?

Edit: At the Midwest Pod Conference a few months ago I was talking to a DPM who is part of an ortho group. He was saying he has done a lot of RRA type work but had only done fewer than a dozen bunionectomies over the previous few years. He wasn't expecting for that to happen. Newankle (and anyone else in an ortho group), are you seeing much in the way of forefoot cases?
 
I agree with NatCH's comments. However, it's very tough when signing a contract to know what the partners are going to "send" a new associate. Fortunately or unfortunately there obviously has to be some level of trust.

Obviously, as a partner, you would presume that you're not going to keep your new associate very happy or around very long if all you filter him/her are the poor paying insurance plans, "c&c" patients, etc. Young associates aren't stupid and it doesn't take much for them to see what's happening.

I never understood when practices do this, because it's certainly a guarantee that you will have an unhappy new associate who will be searching for a new job shortly.

My experience has also paralleled NatCH's when it comes to referring to orthopods. I have referred many cases over the years to orthopods involving knees, hips, elbows, etc., and these groups really don't perform foot/ankle surgery. However, I've never once received a referral from them, not even for routine care, diabetic care, fasciitis, etc. They send it all to a local orthopedic surgeon who only treats foot/ankle problems.

And finally, I once again agree (hey NatCH you're 3 for 3 today!) that I have a colleague with an excellent position with a very successful and busy orthopedic practice. He treats a lot of trauma, injuries, etc., and performs a lot of ankle surgery, but I know that he rarely performs bunion surgery or "elective" foot surgery. I don't know if he really cares, but I think that once in a while he'd be happy getting back to his roots to utilize all his training.
 
Sounds like a good plan. One cautionary statement would be to beware of a practice in which you don't get enough variety of cases to submit to ABPS. Worse yet would be to end up "the nail guy" at some practice where you get the C&C's while the Partners cherry pick.

I agree. The trick however is finding an ortho group who wants symbiosis. In my experience ortho groups gladly accept pod referrals but are reluctant to send cases back the other direction. Then again, I've only lived in places where the ortho groups had F/A orthopods on staff. I can't even get them to send ingrown nails. Instead they send those back to the PCP who then send them to me. C'mon, really?

Edit: At the Midwest Pod Conference a few months ago I was talking to a DPM who is part of an ortho group. He was saying he has done a lot of RRA type work but had only done fewer than a dozen bunionectomies over the previous few years. He wasn't expecting for that to happen. Newankle (and anyone else in an ortho group), are you seeing much in the way of forefoot cases?


When I started with the ortho group all I was getting that needed surgery was RRA but then it became a mix. For instance this week I did 4 first ray cases and 6 ankle cases. It's probably about 60/40 or 70/30 towards RRA.
 
I agree with NatCH's comments. However, it's very tough when signing a contract to know what the partners are going to "send" a new associate. Fortunately or unfortunately there obviously has to be some level of trust.

You are soooo right. In the end you can't have EVERYTHING in writing so there has to be trust. If you don't trust em, don't sign!
 
...beware of a practice in which you don't get enough variety of cases to submit to ABPS. Worse yet would be to end up "the nail guy" at some practice where you get the C&C's while the Partners cherry pick....

You are soooo right. In the end you can't have EVERYTHING in writing so there has to be trust. If you don't trust em, don't sign!
This is the bottom line. The contracts are only as good as the people signing them.

Even in the worst case scenerio where you (or they) end the relationship and go your separate ways, you still have gotten onto the area health plans by doing a year or two as an associate. I've wanted to start a practice from scratch all along, but I'm realizing more and more that getting on the plans is the part that will be the toughest (harder than getting pts, getting loans and office staff, getting on hosp staff, etc).

Sure, after an associate job dissolves, you might be locked out of one part of the town/city by a no-compete, but at least you've gotten onto the plans. At the end of the day, the associate year(s) becomes really nothing more than a brief try-out in the minds of the partner(s), and it's basically a with-me-or-against-me statement for the associate since it will be up to the partner(s) whether they realize the associate is a competent asset that should be kept... or more of a schlub who they don't really mind letting go and perhaps competing against within their metro area. Business is business.
 
Interested to know what your buy in is/was and how structured/determined. That for the podiatry practice I was involved in was very different than that of the ortho group. Also besides the obvious obstacles to a pod becoming a partner in an ortho practice know that some states do not allow a DPM to become a partner in an MD/DO owned medical corporation.
 
Several of our graduating residents have joined ortho practices, some multispecialty groups, many have joined DPM practices and a few have opened up cold.

Orthopedic Practices: Instant patient volume and referral credibility. Higher starting salaries and income potential (hospitals often provide recruitment packages and PR and ortho groups usually have negotiated better reimbursement rates).

Often longer hours (you are functioning as essentially as a foot orthopedist with ER call that is legit and a higher surgical volume). You may lose some gravy care like ingrown toenails and heel pain since many people do not associate that with an orthopedic practice. There is a risk of you building a solid foot and ankle service only to be replaced by a foot orthopod that may come along. I know of a case where this did happen. Make sure your contract has a clause stating you must approve the addition of a foot orthopod and or your non-compete is void if they bring one in. Most of our grads become partners and co-owners in investments

Multispecialty groups: Salaries all over the place. Some similar to ortho groups and others stagnant in the 150-200K range. Instant referrals and depending on the specialties exclusivity in care. Stability of these groups is variable and are often directed by medical vs surgical specialties. If stable often a decent retirement plan but salaries typically max out. Partnership opportunities for DPMs vary.

DPM groups: All over the place but good ones are typically business smart. Lower starting salaries but better potential for partnerships. Patient care can be all inclusive including nail care, nursing home, house call, consults and all aspects of lower extremity surgery or your role may be specific. Sometimes buy in is over priced.

Opening cold: You make your bed. If successful you will be the one hiring associates in 5 years. Harder to get on plans, may take years to build a patient base and referral network. You are alone in all endeavours be it scope issues, reimbursement, coverage, purchasing supplies/equipment, and will need some money up front.
 
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