Why is PRS so competitive?

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Please cite your source. Mine is "Charting Outcomes 2007", as published by the NRMP. I saw no reason to even suspect that even one U.S. Senior with AOA failed to get integrated plastics interviews.

Charting outcomes in the match only includes applicants who are in the match, read: have received interviews in their chosen field. That's why it will say the overall match rate for plastic surgery is over 50%, only including those who have a) received at least one plastics interview, and b) ranked a plastics program first. What it does not tell you is that >350 people apply every year for 92 spots. Approximately half of them get interviews, and approximately half of those who get interviews will match.

"Tell the dermatologist who invented tumescent liposuction that derm is not surgery"..... This statement alone gives you a pretty good idea between the two specialties. Assume they're about as competitive as each other. You will be a real badass on match day, but beyond that they really have nothing in common. Just pick which one you want to be.

Derm: mostly clinic-based, 40-50 hrs per week, 4 yr residency with no in-house call, cool cases = local flaps for mohs recon, occasional blephs, and tumescent liposuction

PRS: mostly OR and hospital based, 60+ hrs per week, (80+ in residency), 6-7 yr residency with in-house call for at least the first 3 yrs, cool cases = 24hr chimeric free flaps, pan-facial fractures, cranial vault remodeling, extremity replantation, sexual reassigment, composite tissue allotransplantation

Disclaimer: I am a PRS resident. Every morning when I wake up at 4, and every night that I stay at the hospital seeing nec fasc consults I wish I was a derm resident. And every time I do a case I take it back.

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habeed, you make a lot of erroneous assumptions before even stepping foot in med school......
 
Of the programs in the match, Integrated Plastics is more competitive, period. It's simply a function of slots. Both are small and highly competitive, but the fact there are ~90 plastics slots versus 300 for Derm makes a huge difference.

The reason Habeed is siting a lower "failure to match" rate for Plastics people is to even be CONSIDERED for one of those slots, you're already an all star. To even GET a plastics interview, you're already a superstar (who will probably match SOMEWHERE). In Derm, it's not uncommon if you're an "above average" medical student, you can get 2 or 3 interviews, but that's no guarantee you'll match.

How the number of residency slots affects the competitiveness of a residency can't be underestimated. No one is going to argue a field like Radiology is less competitive to match into than Plastics, Derm, ENT, etc. However, if you take the top 100 or 300 applicants for Radiology, the ones who compete for slots at MGH, UCSF...they're freaking INSANELY competitive. Heck, if you dropped ENT down to 80-90 slots, it'd be even more ridiculously competitive, maybe more so than plastics.
 
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Charting outcomes in the match only includes applicants who are in the match, read: have received interviews in their chosen field. That's why it will say the overall match rate for plastic surgery is over 50%, only including those who have a) received at least one plastics interview, and b) ranked a plastics program first. What it does not tell you is that >350 people apply every year for 92 spots. Approximately half of them get interviews, and approximately half of those who get interviews will match.

This is not what "charting outcomes" says. Please cite your source. Charting outcomes data is by total applicants, and states that out of U.S. Seniors, 136 applied for the 90 plastic surgery spots in 2007.

It also states "All specialties except Plastic Surgery, Dermatology, Orthopaedic Surgery, Otolaryngology, and Radiation Oncology have enough positions to accommodate all U.S. seniors who prefer that specialty." (Neurosurgery is part of a separate match)

I'd like to know where you get your information, as competitive residencies would be substantially more competitive if there were large numbers of applicants into that residency who had boards and grades near the mean successful appliant. (If none of those people you claim were frozen out were U.S. seniors with boards above 220, they would not really affect someone's chances)
 
In plastics, if you have the boards and you earned AOA, your chances are above 95% that you'll get a spot, based on my analysis of the data. You'll know you're probably in before you even start clinicals. (aka if you just honored all of your basic science courses, did a good amount of extracurriculars, and hit above a 250, you have a greater than 80-90% chance to match plastics if you try for it)
Habeed, with all the respect due to a premed, what the hell are you talking about?

1. NOBODY cares about your grades in basic science courses, and the vast majority of schools are now simply P/F grading

2. NOBODY cares about extracurriculars when applying to residency. You're stuck in premed land, my friend.

3. Above a 250 is great, but every plastics program is flooded with those applications.

What IS important: Clinical grades (you can't JUST GET AOA easily like you seem to be implying), shining at sub-i's and getting great letters from respected people, RESEARCH, and your interview. Honestly, the only thing you seem to have right is the 250
 
Actually, according to charting outcomes, research doesn't do jack. The odds ratio change is 1.01.

Basic science grades are important because they are half of the determining factor for AOA selection, which is crucial.

Extracurriculars are important because they are about 25% of the determining factor for AOA selection, which is the second most crucial thing next to boards. (odds ratio change of 1.91)

Every program cannot be flooded with "those applications", because statistically only a small percentage of all medical students can get a 250+. With no retakes allowed, that means at most 8% of medical students could possibly have a score that high. And not every top applicant is interested in plastics.

According to Charting Outcomes, only 1 person with a board score above 250 (of 24 applicants with scores that high) failed to match plastics. Hence, score above 250, and your chances are already 95% before you start day 1 of clinicals. Zero applicants failed to match with scores above 260.

28/31 applicants with AOA (90%) matched plastics.
I'm not remotely interested in plastics, I only stumbled onto this thread because of all the misinformation spouted by people who should know better. There is clear cut, scientific information that shows who gets plastic surgery, and why. Even the ephemeral "interview" is heavily weighted towards those with higher grades/boards, because a student with higher grades/boards will be granted many, many, many more interviews.
 
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Actually, according to charting outcomes, research doesn't do jack. The odds ratio change is 1.01.

Basic science grades are important because they are half of the determining factor for AOA selection, which is crucial.

Extracurriculars are important because they are about 25% of the determining factor for AOA selection, which is the second most crucial thing next to boards. (odds ratio change of 1.91)

This is not what "charting outcomes" says. Please cite your source. Charting outcomes data is by total applicants, and states that out of U.S. Seniors, 136 applied for the 90 plastic surgery spots in 2007.

Just stop posting. All you are doing is regurgitating the NRMP pdf that any of us can look at. You have no clue about any of this. How about for starters, AOA selection factors vary at every school. At my school extracurriculars represent 0%. Next up, charting outcomes only lists people who got interviews because it only lists people who submitted a rank list to NRMP. If you look at the charts by number of programs ranked, they all start at... one. Guess what, you can't submit a rank list if you didn't get any interviews to rank.

Lastly, hopefully your biostatistics class will help you to unravel the difference between correlation and causation. Every AOA kid in my class also had high board scores and research (and your quoting an odds ratio to prove that research doesn't matter is awesome).
 
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At my school extracurriculars represent 0%.

So much for "leadership and service to the community". That means your school is in violation of the national chapter guidelines. Most schools follow the rules.
 
Just stop posting. All you are doing is regurgitating the NRMP pdf that any of us can look at. You have no clue about any of this.


And I suppose you have a bucket full of anecdotal evidence to disprove my claims? Put up or shut up, this is the best data I know of. Just because you know everything that a few people in your medical school have gone through, and maybe rumors from your own residency program, does not mean that your anecdotal information is superior to data compiled from every plastics residency in the country.

I'm saying that even if NRMP data is incomplete, the average board score of a successful plastics match is over 240. Are you telling me that there is even one person who is a U.S. senior who applied to at least 10 plastics programs with a board score above 240 and got 0 interviews? I'm willing to bet money that 99% of the applicants who got screened out had a negligible chance of matching, anyways.
 
(and your quoting an odds ratio to prove that research doesn't matter is awesome).

It means that whether you had research or not doesn't change the odds. Sounds unambiguous to me.
 
I'm saying that even if NRMP data is incomplete, the average board score of a successful plastics match is over 240. Are you telling me that there is even one person who is a U.S. senior who applied to at least 10 plastics programs with a board score above 240 and got 0 interviews?

I bet there is. A 240 is a below average score for plastics; if someone has nothing else going for them in their application that's nowhere near a good enough reason to interview them. But the point is I don't know and neither do you. The difference is that you're convinced you know it all based on one flawed survey. You are the one making the claim that certain things basically guarantee you'll match.

A sample size of thousands means nothing when the study is fundamentally flawed and incapable of even controlling for confounders, let alone determining causation vs. correlation. Talking to integrated program directors who actually make the rank lists IS a much better source than that pdf, considering there's only about 30 of them in the country.
 
But said PD would tell you he or she considered "research very important". Yet, that odds ratio difference is basically saying that if you compared two identical applicants, one with research and another without, you would find that the actual chance of matching was the same.

That means that the PDs as a group actually don't give a crap about research, it is more likely they rank according to numbers and 'gut feel' from the interviews. At least, that's what the data says to me. Hence, I'm willing to trust said data considerably more than what people say.

Despite limitations in the methodology, this is the accepted way we are supposed to practice medicine : from the evidence we have available, not what our anecdotal experiences tell us. Sure, statistics have limits : but overall, they are vastly more accurate than easily biased personal experiences. I bet you haven't talked to all 30 plastics PDs, there's simply no way you could have. I would suspect you have talked to maybe 2 at most.

After all, to use the tired analogy : medical schools claim they look at the whole applicant, and that all sorts of non graded things matter. That's pretty much a lie, as medical schools receive too many applications to look at "the whole applicant".
 
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Perfect example of the inconsistency I am talking about. Plastics directors state that they don't care as much about basic science grades, yet they do care heavily about class rank and AOA almost as much as any other factor.

Can't have one without the other. Maybe they don't scrutinize your transcript for low patches, but you better have made the rank in the end.

Hence, the common misconception that "basic science grades don't matter". Truth is, your chance to match plastics is substantially lower if you get a bunch of Passes/Cs in basic sciences even if you rock out the boards.
 
All right Habeed. Here we go.

1) As many, many others have pointed out, the Charting Outcomes data are based solely on submitted rank lists. Not on applications. You could apply to literally every program in every specialty in the country. You could apply to 32 IM programs and 47 plastics programs. None of it matters except *submitted rank lists*. How would the NRMP know to which programs you applied? Given that almost no one is crazy/stupid/deluded enough to actually rank a program at which they didn't interview, *submitted rank lists* reflect interviews granted. Anyone who ranks plastics first will be counted as a "plastic surgery applicant" in the Charting Outcomes data. That IM dude who applied to 47 plastics programs as a lark? Not reflected. Nor is the guy who applied to every program in the country. Nor, more realistically, are the "Hail Mary" applicants (you know, the residency equivalent of the premed who applies to his state school, a few DO places.. and Harvard).

2) Re: AOA: Derm has the highest percentage of successfual applicants who are AOA; PRS is second. 5.9% of unmatched applicants were AOA, in a small sample size, so it is by no means a guarantee.

3) "Research projects" and "abstracts, publications and presentations" are deeply confounded. Unfortunately the NRMP gathers their data very bluntly and there is no way to distinguish between serious basic science/clinical PRS research, presentations at ACS/PSRC, etc from a little nephrology chart review you got your name on after first year, or some undergraduate ecology paper. The first group carries a lot of weight; the second, none. So remember: there's research and there's research.

4) At most places AOA selection is heavily weighted by third year performance (basic science performance is deeply discounted), which in turn is heavily determined by personality and likeability. If you're truly shooting for all of the ultracompetitive specialties at once so as to maximize your income potential, it would benefit you to keep that in mind.
 
Thanks.
1. If an applicant scores close to the average board score of a successful applicant, their odds should be extremely close to the chances published by the NRMP. I don't believe there's a significant number of people out there who have the numbers but aren't offered at least 1 interview (which would make them show up as data in Charting Outcomes)

2. Incorrect. If you have AOA, and try to match Derm, your chances are 80%. If you have AOA, and try to match plastics, your chances are 90%

3. I actually do believe this, and I'm going to do a summer research fellowship from M1-M2 if I can get one. I suspect that'll be all I need, however, and that I won't be at a competitive disadvantage compared to people who did a ton of research in undergrad. I don't think there's a substantial difference between a "one shot wonder" summer fellowship and anything short of a PhD. (of course, a PhD matters a lot, but of course is overall a bad idea due to the enormous opportunity cost)

4. I'm hoping for junior AOA for this very reason. (yes, I know, it is ultra-competitive) Most chapters have no way to consider third year rotation grades when they vote on junior AOA, as they do the selection in the middle of third year, when none of the class have taken the same rotations. It is possible for me to do the work and get the straight Honors and the 250+ I would need to have a good shot at junior AOA. (and the extra-curriculars) I don't know what actual doctors will think of my personality during rotations, and I don't want to risk uncertainty.

I think medical school and specialty selection is a game, and I would like to play it by the most optimal strategy I have available to me. (sure, sure, an Ivy league medical school would be even more optimal, but that isn't an option) Nor is making "connections" because I am incredibly sexually attractive, like some of the students in the Derm interest group appear to be able to do...
 
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oh yeah tell the guy who invented tumescent liposuction (a dermatologist) that too.

Actually the guy who popularized tumescent fluid with lipo was a French plastic surgeon, Dr. Illouz and not Dr. Klein, whom you're referring to. Klein didn't do much beyond turning the volume waaaay up on the tumescent side.
 
Habeed,
Please try and realize that what people are trying to tell you is that this is a case where statistical analysis is not wisely done by just looking at the charts. I could look at the data and say that the odds of matching into Derm with a sub 190 step 1 score are 1/3. If you feel comfortable taking that to have any meaning then be my guest. Bottom line you can use statistics to prove anything, 83% of people know that.
 
2. Incorrect. If you have AOA, and try to match Derm, your chances are 80%. If you have AOA, and try to match plastics, your chances are 90%

Read, Habeed.

BlondeDocteur said:
Derm has the highest percentage of successfual applicants who are AOA; PRS is second.

Derm: %age matched applicants who are AOA = 47%, PRS = 36.5%.

(of course, a PhD matters a lot, but of course is overall a bad idea due to the enormous opportunity cost)

How intriguing... if you look at charting outcomes, you'll see that only 3/5 (60%) of MD/PhD students matched, whereas 82/131 (63%) of the non-PhD students did. By your trenchant statistical analyses, a PhD is a disadvantage.
 
in the end, it won't really matter

i hope habeed's stubbornness dissipates early or he'll be mowed down so quickly in the clinical years that both derm and plastics will be out of his reach

no matter which one happens to be #1 that year in terms of competitiveness
 
Actually the guy who popularized tumescent fluid with lipo was a French plastic surgeon, Dr. Illouz and not Dr. Klein, whom you're referring to. Klein didn't do much beyond turning the volume waaaay up on the tumescent side.

No, actually Klien is credited as the originater of the tumescent techinque. From your guy's own bible: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9393490?dopt=Abstract

For those who don't have access:

"In 1993, Klein, a dermatologist, and an internist reported their results using a tumescent solution similar to Toledo's, which we adapted in 1989.(7) Klein's safe lidocaine injection of 35 mg/kg of body weight was immediately popular, partly because of the eye-catching term"tumescent." It simply means that, before suctioning, the tissues are injected until they are firm. This allows liposuction to be performed without general anesthesia. It is important to remember that Klein injects his formula segmentally into the tissues up to a total dosage of 35 mg/kg of body weight. Segmental injection of the tumescent formula is a critical safeguard. Five to seven liters of fatty tissue can be aspirated without apparent adverse effects and considerable reduction in blood loss.(8)"

Another article from your bible attached here:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/...nel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum
 

Attachments

  • Tumescent_Technique_for_Local_Anesthia_Improves_Safety_in_Large.pdf
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...anyway... The point of this thread was to get at the appeal of PRS that is less obvious to the outside, not to discuss the 80% vs. 90% chance to match with AOA for derm vs. plastics.

Derm is competitive for obvious reasons (lifestyle), while surveys for lifestyle/salary for PRS appear less enticing (comparable hours with lower salary than other surgical subspecialties). Nonetheless, PRS remains as competitive as derm across the board (however you choose to define it).

So I know all you attendings/residents/4th-years must know something the surveys don't reflect. There have been some great posts to this end pre-Habeed.

Let's go back to that. From your experience, why does PRS appear to be the surgical holy ground? (a bit of an exaggeration but... you get it)
 
Let's go back to that. From your experience, why does PRS appear to be the surgical holy ground? (a bit of an exaggeration but... you get it)

Good idea. This thread could use a change. (Anything to stop the string of posts from derm residents defending their specialty against non-existent attacks against it. :rolleyes:)

One of the chiefs that I worked with this year, who is doing plastics next year, explained it to me this way:

- You get to operate. Not the minimially invasive stuff that a lot of old-fashioned surgeons dislike, but you get to do a lot of big cases (skin grafts, flaps, etc.)

- Plastic surgeons operate in every area of the body. From cleft palate repair, to sacral decub debridement and reconstruction, to breast reconstruction, to lat flaps, they operate everywhere. They're not limited to just the thorax (like CT surgeons), just the head and neck (like ENT), or just the belly (like HPB).

- You get to have a lasting impact on people who really need your help. From cleft palate repair (which allows children to grow up normally) to skin grafts (for burn victims) to reconstruction (after, for instance, necrotizing fasciitis debridement) to breast reconstruction (after mastectomy)....it's really rewarding.
 
Derm is competitive for obvious reasons (lifestyle), while surveys for lifestyle/salary for PRS appear less enticing (comparable hours with lower salary than other surgical subspecialties). Nonetheless, PRS remains as competitive as derm across the board (however you choose to define it).

? Using CareersinMedicine, it appears PRS is one of the highest paying surgical subspecialties (>ENT >Uro if I remember correctly) And I doubt that even includes cosmetics case (pre-economy crash of course)

The option to add on cosmetics can add significantly to salary and possibly decrease work hours too. There's no argument the residency is just as tough as the other surgical subspecialties but I think there's quite a bit of flexibility as an attending.
 
? Using CareersinMedicine, it appears PRS is one of the highest paying surgical subspecialties (>ENT >Uro if I remember correctly) And I doubt that even includes cosmetics case (pre-economy crash of course)

Ah, perhaps Careers in Medicine has more accurate data, but I can't see it yet (dont have school access code yet).

But what I was referring to was the allied physician survey. Plastics averages $412k mid-career, less than CT, neursurgery, and every sub-speciality of ORS except foot/ankle, and it's only moderately above vascular surg and urology. Meanwhile, separate surveys I've seen floating around put avg. work hours of most of the surgical specialities about the same, ~60hrs/week.

I know using averages for this is kind of bogus, but still may be worth bringing up.

So I wonder how much of an impact the ability to do cash paying cosmetic cases has on PRS appeal and ultimate lifestyle/salary flexibility as compared to say, ORS sub-specialties, which seem to reimburse better on average but might not afford the same flexibility. It's difficult to get anyone in the academic world to openly talk about this.


PS. Since posting this thread, I've begun shadowing the director of PRS at my home institution. I've spent maybe 15hrs so far in the OR, and I'm beginning to see the appeal of "diverse and interesting cases".
 
No, actually Klien is credited as the originater of the tumescent techinque. From your guy's own bible: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9393490?dopt=Abstract
You're confusing a term Klein coined ("tumescent technique") with what was actually being done years before - tumescent liposuction. Illouz (and Fournier to a lesser extent) were really the ones who pioneered and popularized tumescing tissue with fluid containing adrenaline and local anesthetic in the 1970's. Klein's twist was to take the tumescent instillation up many times (5-6x+) and load up on the local as compared to what was being done by Illouz. Dr. Klein was an innovative guy, but he merely offered a variation of an existing idea.

Few people actually do anything approaching Klein's technique anymore as it's fairly imprecise (due to excess distortion from the fluid), very slow, and the lidocaine doses limit it's use to smaller cases. The contemporary "superwet" technique (1cc infiltrate to expected aspirate volume) is pretty much what Illouz was doing 30 years ago
 
Here is the data (academic medicine - no private prac available)

25/median/75th percentriles

Early Career $200,000 $228,000 $302,000 Mid to late Career $265,000 $354,000 $494,000


U.S. Seniors​
Matched
Did Not Match

(n=85)
(n=51)​
USMLE Step 1 Score Mean
241
222​
Median
243
225​
25th percentile
231
209​
75th percentile
251
236​
Count*
83
51​
USMLE Step 2 Score Mean
244
220​
Median
246
221​
25th percentile
235
211​
75th percentile
257
229​
Count*
36
30​
Median number of programs ranked
7.0
2.0​
Mean number of distinct specialties ranked
1.7
1.9​
Percent graduated from top 40 NIH research medical school
60.0
52.9​
Percent who have a Ph.D. degree
3.5
3.9​
Percent who have another graduate degree
9.4
13.7​
Percent AOA membership
36.5
5.9​
Mean number of research projects
3.4
2.9​
Mean number of abstracts, presentations, and publications
6.0
3.3​
 
No, actually Klien is credited as the originater of the tumescent techinque. From your guy's own bible: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9393490?dopt=Abstract
You're confusing a term Klein coined ("tumescent technique") with what was actually being done years before - tumescent liposuction. Illouz (and Fournier to a lesser extent) were really the ones who pioneered and popularized tumescing tissue with fluid containing adrenaline and local anesthetic in the 1970's. Klein's twist was to take the tumescent instillation up many times (5-6x+) and load up on the local as compared to what was being done by Illouz. Dr. Klein was an innovative guy, but he merely offered a variation of an existing idea.

Few people actually do anything approaching Klein's technique anymore as it's fairly imprecise (due to excess distortion from the fluid), very slow, and the lidocaine doses limit it's use to smaller cases. The contemporary "superwet" technique (1cc infiltrate to expected aspirate volume) is pretty much what Illouz was doing 30 years ago

Rob,

Is this totally intellectually accurate? Or are you proving a point? I know that I have been out of the lipo loop for a few years now, but I'm not sure that I would say that "very few" lipo cases are performed using the tumescent technique today. True, it is quite a bit slower than the wet or superwet techniques, and if you are doing large cases, in the O.R., as part of a multiple procedure session I can see the relative disadvantage.... but my thought has always been that lipo is a sculpting procedure, not a debulking... and the blood loss, fluid shifts, etc were magnitudes worse when using either the wet or superwet techniques... but this is something that I admittedly have not spent much time keeping up with since the fellowship.
 
No, I'd say it's pretty accurate that few people do a true Klein-style tumescence anymore (where you may infuse 6-7X the fluid in you expect to get out).

There's a couple reasons:

- most find the excessive swelling masks the actual contour you're trying to create. It's hard to sculpt something you can't assess well.

- blood loss is pretty minimal with the now standard "superwet" tumescence guidelines

- patients don't "leak" for days around the house from their port sites with smaller volume infusion

- you're more likely to get seromas from fluid trapping

- although it can be done safely most of the time, the peak doses of lidocaine signifigantly exceed published safety levels. If you do have a complication from lidocaine toxicity, you are dead in the water med-mal wise.

- again, time is money to some degree. A technique taking several times as long with no clear benefit is just not for most people. Particularly with cases of any substancial size. Most of Klein's pictures I've ever seen are pretty idealized patients with small areas of treatment. He's no dummy!

IMO, the most important principle Klein popularized was the smaller diameter cannula (2-3mm), which is much more forgiving then the 5-7mm ones that were being used prior. I have great respect for Klein's work, but I have no respect for his weekend "chop shop" lipo courses where anyone with the money (usually derm, FP, GP's, OBGYN, etc..) comes out stamped as a "trained liposuction expert" to be unleashed on unsuspecting patients.
 
Fair enough...

The first thing that Klein teaches is patient selection... start with someone who looks good and can actually benefit (i.e. stay away from, say, Tara Reid or Harpo Winfrey) and you will be ahead of the guy who does not heed that advice.

In the fellowship year we did probably 150 or so cases... I was only "allowed" to be involved in fewer than half of those. It was work for most of them. Whether the problem was technique or selection I have no idea, but I did learn that I could do flaps and grafts and come out ahead when compared to the lipo that we were doing.... of course, at that time, we were being reimbursed at 100%.... but oh well... perhaps I should have taken more interest.

The most dangerous doc is the one who neither understands nor appreciates his/her limitations.....
 
No, actually Klien is credited as the originater of the tumescent techinque. From your guy's own bible: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9393490?dopt=Abstract
You're confusing a term Klein coined ("tumescent technique") with what was actually being done years before - tumescent liposuction. Illouz (and Fournier to a lesser extent) were really the ones who pioneered and popularized tumescing tissue with fluid containing adrenaline and local anesthetic in the 1970's. Klein's twist was to take the tumescent instillation up many times (5-6x+) and load up on the local as compared to what was being done by Illouz. Dr. Klein was an innovative guy, but he merely offered a variation of an existing idea.
No I think you are confusing who did what. Again from the same article from your guys bible: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9393490?dopt=Abstract

"In 1982, Illouz in France began injecting hypotonic saline into his operative sites on the premise that the saline solution would help rupture adipocytes. He called the solution the Wet Technique. Fournier, a colleague, later demonstrated that there was no more disruption with his dry technique(without saline injection) than with Illouz' wet technique.1,2 Their cases were performed under general anesthesia, and blood loss was a problem when aspirating 2000 cc or more of fatty tissue.

After my 1982 visit to Illouz, Dr. William Mathews and I began using a mixture of 0.3% lidocaine with 1:320,000 epinephrine, which was equivalent to 15 to 16 mg/kg of body weight.3 Mathews, an anesthesiologist/ researcher for ASTRA, asked them to evaluate serum blood levels at 10, 20, 30, and 40 minutes.

Their results indicated that the level in the serum of our patients never exceeded 1 µg/ml and that blood loss was considerably reduced. Hetter, in a similar study, confirmed our results.4 The term“lipocrit,” meaning the ratio of fat to blood remaining when an aliquot is centrifuged in a graduated centrifuge tube, was coined by Grazer and Mathews.5 With the introduction of smaller bullet Mercedes canulas and our mini-wet technique, we reduced blood loss of 15 to 20 percent to 5 percent blood loss. We maintained levels of aspirate at 3000 cc in an outpatient procedure. Cases with greater levels of aspiration were performed in the hospital, using autologous blood. My maximum aspirate using our early formula was 10,000 cc.5

In the late 1980s, Toledo, in Brazil, began to inject up to 3 liters of dilute lidocaine, epinephrine, and buffer solution. Toledo's original formula was 40 ml 1 percent lidocaine (e.g., 400 mg/liter) with 2 ml 1:1000 epinephrine, 1 liter lactated Ringer's solution, and 20 ml sodium bicarbonate. Our modified formula consists of 1 liter of lactated Ringer's solution, 1 ml 1:1000 epinephrine, 40 cc 1 percent lidocaine, and 20 cc 8.4 percent sodium bicarbonate.5,6

In 1993, Klein, a dermatologist, and an internist reported their results using a tumescent solution similar to Toledo's, which we adapted in 1989.7 Klein's safe lidocaine injection of 35 mg/kg of body weight was immediately popular, partly because of the eye-catching term“tumescent.” It simply means that, before suctioning, the tissues are injected until they are firm. This allows liposuction to be performed without general anesthesia. It is important to remember that Klein injects his formula segmentally into the tissues up to a total dosage of 35 mg/kg of body weight. Segmental injection of the tumescent formula is a critical safeguard. Five to seven liters of fatty tissue can be aspirated without apparent adverse effects and considerable reduction in blood loss.8

Today, the anesthetic solutions typically used with the tumescent technique consist of 0.05 to 0.1 percent lidocaine with 0.5 to 1:1,000,000 epinephrine, which translates into lidocaine 500 to 1000 mg; epinephrine 0.5 to 1 mg; sodium bicarbonate 2.5 to 12.5 mEq, and 0.9 percent NaCl or lactated Ringer's-1000 m/s.

Tumescent liposuction is safe and effective when properly performed. Alteration of the safe parameters upon which studies of this technique are based can place both patient and surgeon in an extremely uncertain position. The risks of compromising patient safety should be the concern of every physician performing suction-assisted lipectomy."
 
No, actually Klien is credited as the originater of the tumescent techinque. From your guy's own bible: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9393490?dopt=Abstract
No I think you are confusing who did what. Again from the same article from your guys bible: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9393490?dopt=Abstract

I'm not interested in belaboring this, but I think you don't understand the distinction that's actually being discussed in the passage you're referring to. Klein coined the term "tumescent technique", but the principles of tumescent liposuction had clearly been applied for years.
 
Please, Ollie, please, quit feeding the troll!

How are you using depobupivicaine? Do you just squirt it in the pocket or inject it? Saw mention of it on your site.
 
Please, Ollie, please, quit feeding the troll!

Great I site the literature and nrmp data you guys resort to ad hominem calling me a troll.

Hate to burst your guys bubbles but plastics is not the most competitive specialty (just look at the nrmp data on board scores and aoa) and not every thing that comes out of a plastic surgeons mouth is the gospel (just look at the articles I've sited from your own literature and oli's claims).

I'll let you guys know I applied to plastics and derm because I know I could. I choose derm in the end for a better lifestyle. I know for sure with my 260+ step 1 I would of matched into plastics but couldn't be sure of that in derm. For those med student wannbe plastics guys who never did a derm rotation, I cut stuff everyday and I make it look nice from what I've learned from my plastics rotation, and yes I do flaps too so derm and plastics are not that far off from each other.
 
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Great I site the literature and nrmp data you guys resort to ad hominem calling me a troll.

Hate to burst your guys bubbles but plastics is not the most competitive specialty (just look at the nrmp data on board scores and aoa) and not every thing that comes out of a plastic surgeons mouth is the gospel (just look at the articles I've sited from your own literature and oli's claims).

I'll let you guys know I applied to plastics and derm because I know I could. I choose derm in the end for a better lifestyle. I know for sure with my 260+ step 1 I would of matched into plastics but couldn't be sure of that in derm. For those med student wannbe plastics guys who never did a derm rotation, I cut stuff everyday and I make it look nice from what I've learned from my plastics rotation, and yes I do flaps too so derm and plastics are not that far off from each other.

Question for you attendings: is this the medical equivalent of a Napoleon complex?
 
I'll let you guys know I applied to plastics and derm because I know I could. I choose derm in the end for a better lifestyle. I know for sure with my 260+ step 1 I would of matched into plastics but couldn't be sure of that in derm.

Why would you let us know that exactly? Did you think "I'll prove how awesome and supergenius I am, then they'll realize how much cooler derm is!"? Statistics weren't working, but your board score was going to be the clincher?

I almost find your statements scary, because someone being devoid enough of self-awareness to think that anyone -- derm, plastics or garbage man -- was going to respond positively to them is amazing.
 
I have to say I'm on What the pho's side. He's supporting my argument that Derm is harder to match than Plastics, which was why I responded to this thread 50 posts ago.

He never once calls himself a super-genius, and a 260 is actually "only" top 4% on the boards. Nevertheless, with his high score and his successful Derm match, it seems rather obvious that he could have chosen plastics instead, which was what his point was.

And I have to say, choosing to get plenty of sleep and enjoy your life for the same pay is a rather good decision to make. Money can buy many, many nice things, and a Dermatologist is more likely to get a chance to enjoy those things... Maybe he can't do the deep surgeries, but he can be knee deep in a member of the appropriate gender instead...
 
a 260 is actually "only" top 4% on the boards.

Um, no.

A max of 15 points = 1 standard deviation. (Many argue it's actually 10-12 pts).

215 is the 50th percentile.

Therefore, (260-215) = 45 = 3 SDs.

As Barbie says-- math is HARD.
 
Habeed-- medfriends.org is a website where people voluntarily submit their MCAT, practice test scores, and real USMLEs. The admins try to draw conclusions based on those voluntary reports. If you can't spot the bias(es) in that within 1 second... Bottom line, although the tails are probably correct (about as many people score <160 as >280-- like 2 per year) the curve is skewed towards the upper end.

4% of all test takers do not score above 260. You've been hanging around sdn too long and the real world too little if you believe that.

I could be wrong though. Go to Charting Outcomes 2007 and number up the successfully matched applicants who have at least a 260 on Step 1, out of all those successfully matched (some 24,000 people). If there were at least 960, I will graciously concede. I will even overlook the fact that people with higher scores will be overrepresented relative to all test takers since their chances of matching are obviously higher than those with very low or marginal scores.
 
Never mind. I did it myself. Charting Outcomes lists both matched and unmatched applicants. According to the NRMP, in 2007 there was a grand total of 34,975 people participating in the Match. 274 had Step 1 scores greater than 260.

274/34,975 = 0.78%.

Unless you think there is a massive cadre of high-scoring students who opt out of residency altogether, that would place a 260 precisely at 3 SD above the mean. (Assuming a normal distribution, the 68-95-99.7 rule holds fairly comfortably).
 
Which would imply that the company that makes the USMLE, and prints the standard deviation onto your scorecard, lies about the numbers.

Maybe the high scoring people are in other matches besides the NRMP match? Like the neurosurgery match?
 
Which would imply that the company that makes the USMLE, and prints the standard deviation onto your scorecard, lies about the numbers.

Maybe the high scoring people are in other matches besides the NRMP match? Like the neurosurgery match?

I want you to practice saying something. It will be very useful not just for medical school, but for life.

"I... am... wrong. It's OK, the world won't end. I am still my fabulous self, just mistaken."

That wasn't so bad, was it?

But if you must... are you *really* suggesting that (0.04*34,975 - 274) 1125 people who scored above a 260 participated in the neurosurgery, ophthalmology and urology matches?
 
"I... am... wrong. It's OK, the world won't end. I am still my fabulous self, just mistaken."

Not this time.
usmle-step-1-score-report.jpg
 
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