Why is Neurology not a medicine fellowship?

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Chocolateagar04

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Hey,

I'm currently a PGY-1 completing transitional year. Going to be starting Neurology next year. I was just wondering why isn't Neurology a fellowship of medicine here in the United States when pretty much every other country its a fellowship of medicine?

I for one am not complaining but I'm just wondering when and why it was made into a non-fellowship field.

I understand Neurology in itself is very vast but it seems like to be a good neurologist you absolutely much be very well versed in internal medicine. Also, a lot of general medicine specialists seem to handle inpatient neurology cases very well. idk , Neurology just appears to be an extension of general medicine....

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Why isn't neurosurgery a fellowship of gen surg?
 
Hey,

I was just wondering why isn't Neurology a fellowship of medicine here in the United States when pretty much every other country its a fellowship of medicine?
....

historical accident. That's just the way things are. No rational reason.

Why is podiatry its own branch of medicine (rather than an MD specialty or subspecialty)??
 
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I understand Neurology in itself is very vast but it seems like to be a good neurologist you absolutely much be very well versed in internal medicine. Also, a lot of general medicine specialists seem to handle inpatient neurology cases very well. idk , Neurology just appears to be an extension of general medicine....

because general medicne practitioners handle outpatient neurology issues very poorly :p
 
Hey,

I'm currently a PGY-1 completing transitional year. Going to be starting Neurology next year. I was just wondering why isn't Neurology a fellowship of medicine here in the United States when pretty much every other country its a fellowship of medicine?

I for one am not complaining but I'm just wondering when and why it was made into a non-fellowship field.

I understand Neurology in itself is very vast but it seems like to be a good neurologist you absolutely much be very well versed in internal medicine. Also, a lot of general medicine specialists seem to handle inpatient neurology cases very well. idk , Neurology just appears to be an extension of general medicine....


Because as a neurologist you aren't going to be managing a patients metformin, treat a UTI, or treat IBS. A year is plenty to learn the basics of general internal med to make you a competent physician as a neurologist. Leave the internal med/primary care to the internal med/FM guys. We have enough to deal with and learn.

With your logic neurology would take 6 years of training plus the 1-2 years of fellowship. GME is long enough as it is. No need to make it more complicated and long winded.
 
Because as a neurologist you aren't going to be managing a patients metformin, treat a UTI, or treat IBS. A year is plenty to learn the basics of general internal med to make you a competent physician as a neurologist. Leave the internal med/primary care to the internal med/FM guys. We have enough to deal with and learn.

With your logic neurology would take 6 years of training plus the 1-2 years of fellowship. GME is long enough as it is. No need to make it more complicated and long winded.

Similar logic could apply to many IM subspecialties. It might be better if cardiology, for example, was its own stand-alone specialty.
 
Ok, so the real reason I posted this thread is because I want someone to tell me that you DON'T need that much medicine. My attitude this year has been just trying to soak in as much medicine via osmosis as 6months of floor/ICU will allow me to do and not to spend too much time reading about the management of common internal medicine issues aside from STEP 3 studying.

I can't stand internal medicine, I just dont care about renal disease, liver disease, heart disease, I just find it so boring and I can't stand managing these patients. I can't stand how whenever we admit a patient thye have like 8 different problems to manage and the medicine team has to manage each and every one of them. I get jealous of the consultants (including neurologists) who just come and give their opinion and focus on really just one system or one problem.

Everyone in my program, however, just scares me and says "Neurology is basically like medicine". And I must admit, as a general medicine team we do manage a ton of strokes, dizziness, headaches, etc.

As a student completing rotations I didn't think neurology was all that internal medicine heavy especially in the clinic but my coworkers and some attendings have me thinking otherwise. And then I realized that Neurology is a medicine fellowship every where else in the world except here. So it has me thinking now maybe it is a lot like medicine and maybe I should change my strategy and read hardcore internal medicine right now while I have the chance to this year....
 
Ok, so the real reason I posted this thread is because I want someone to tell me that you DON'T need that much medicine.

Well, I would be one who argures that a strong knowledge of IM is of immense benefit in neurology residency and practice. Stroke patients have a veritable plethora of cardiac issues, for instance. You may not always have cardiology or IM to come hold your hand for these problems, either. I suppose the best answer is it depends on the place you're training at and what you want to get out of the educational experience.

At my medical school, neurology was, ah, not strong. They would have an inpatient census of about 7 patients total, and would otherwise consult on everything. Acute strokes would often get managed by neurosurgery and internal medicine (in 2005). It was pretty cushy. On the plus side, there was a strong emphasis on outpatient general neurology. In retrospect, it was actually a good setup for residents seeking a true experience in ye olde traditional private practice general neurology.

In contrast, my residency was brutal. It was heavily focused on inpatient neurology, stroke, neurocritical care, and inpatient call. There would be 15-30 patients on the stroke service (admits, not consults), and 10-20 admits plus again as many consults on the general neurology side. Anything resembling an acute stroke was a stat call to neurology. Neurosurgey even managed to finagle us into admitting certain types of intracranial hemorrhages (which wound up being the *majority* of intracranial hemorrhages). Arrgh. Any stroke page (even courtesy of the EMT's en route to the ED) was the responsibility of neurology until proven otherwise, with precious little help from ED doctors in plenty of scenarios (to their credit, they were often busy with their own problems and not always just hanging out eating pizza their attendings had ordered). Resident clinics were full of non-insured, non-compliant, surly, patients who made up for lack of health care by having thick, psychiatric overtones emblazoned upon their neurologic disease.

Heaven help you if you wanted to learn some basic outpatient neuro. We had precious few months allotted for this, and they were jackhammered with an unending call routine, the fact that you could only take vacation during these self-same elective months, and the additional burden of the elective people having the responsibility of picking up basic science lecture/case report/journal club/grand rounds tasks.

Ah, the halcyon days of residency.

So you see the answer to your question can be quite different based on what type of program we're talking about here.

I was like you as a medical student. I hated internal medicine. But, during my internship I actually discovered that I enjoyed it about the month of October or so (much to my surprise). It turns out that you develop a knack for it quickly if you apply yourself and pay attention to the better attendings. Also, I fould a sense of humor goes far. Neurology often builds heavily upon internal medicine, and you may end up doing an awful lot of IM work in stroke and general neurology admissions if your residency is like mine was. In that case, I would suggest you get busy soaking up as much IM as you can. The senior neurology residents at your program can offer you advice about this.

The real world of academics or private practice? It'll be your choice. Pick a place that has minimal IM overlap in neurology (or the reverse) at your own discretion.
 
So it has me thinking now maybe it is a lot like medicine and maybe I should change my strategy and read hardcore internal medicine right now while I have the chance to this year....

Do this. The more you know about the medical specialties that interface with neurology (or your branch of neurology) the more effective you can be as a neurologist.

Someone here will probably argue with me about that and say that you should just spend your intern year reading Merritt over and over and over until you are Zen with neurology, but there is so much endocrine and rheum and ID and cardiology in neurology that you can't get by as an isolationist.

That said, don't spend your time memorizing whether bioprosthetic valves in the aortic position should be therapeutically anticoagulated for 3 vs. 6 months (newest data suggests 6) because you won't be making that call by yourself ever. Instead, focus on the big picture principles and mainstays of management so you at least have a good idea how your neurologic recommendations will fit in with other medical specialists as part of a team caring for your patients. That will work to your benefit regardless of your future practice environment.
 
Honestly I would say cardiac is very important, there is a lot of common ground in the sense that strokes involve the pump, the pipes, or the passengers. There's also the ever-present "Altered mental status" consult which usually involves toxic/metabolic encephalopathy which may/may not be neurological, usually medical or sepsis related.

There will be different cultures for different places regarding where the line is drawn with clinical care. At our county hospital there will be a lot more primary neurology patients compared with say our semi private hospital where my list is usually 90% consult, VA is a 50/50.

Neurology is like medicine in that we do NOT do surgery- we will do procedural diagnostics and therapeutics but we aren't surgeons. You will not have to be on the up and up about all the new developments in renal disease but there really is kind of a core of medical knowledge every practitioner should be familiar with, it's what step 3 is focused on.

Do you need to know details of organogenesis and gestation? no. Do you need to know that in the third trimester you see basically fetal growth and not a lot of organs forming de novo? yes. Do you need to know how to pinpoint the myocardium under stress in an ekg? no. Do you need to know enough about heart attacks that when your vasculopathic stroke patient starts having a lot of left arm "cramping" you probably need an internist or cardiologist? yes
 
I echo the thoughts of others.

Ortho, ENT, and Urology are not required to complete general surgery first


Neurology is a medicine based specialty the same way Ortho is a surgical specialty.

There is no doubt that a solid knowledge of general medicine is exceptionally helpful in neurology, especially in residency programs which tend to heavily focus on ward based rotations.
 
In contrast, my residency was brutal. It was heavily focused on inpatient neurology, stroke, neurocritical care, and inpatient call. There would be 15-30 patients on the stroke service (admits, not consults), and 10-20 admits plus again as many consults on the general neurology side. Anything resembling an acute stroke was a stat call to neurology. Neurosurgey even managed to finagle us into admitting certain types of intracranial hemorrhages (which wound up being the *majority* of intracranial hemorrhages). Arrgh. Any stroke page (even courtesy of the EMT's en route to the ED) was the responsibility of neurology until proven otherwise, with precious little help from ED doctors in plenty of scenarios (to their credit, they were often busy with their own problems and not always just hanging out eating pizza their attendings had ordered). Resident clinics were full of non-insured, non-compliant, surly, patients who made up for lack of health care by having thick, psychiatric overtones emblazoned upon their neurologic disease.

I just had a PTSD flashback.

I think the reason that neuro does not require a 3 year IM residency is that if it did, then no-one would go into it.
 
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