Why Ireland instead of DO?

[Canuck_doc1]

Sort of new here. Working as a nurse. Applied and rejected in Canada 3 times. 3.7 GPA best MCAT 28. Excellent research and other ECs.

Visited a DO school and met with Canadian FM resident who did the DO route. Gave me lots of hope and encouragement about doing the DO route. I also have a former UG colleague who went to RCSI, now doing intern year. Looks like lots of Canadians are applying to Irish MD schools.

Just curious, would I have a shot at 4 year schools? Also what is motivating you to go the Ireland route versus say DO? I will be submitting applications this coming summer. Wondering if it is wise to consider Ireland.

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[torontopharm]

Sort of new here. Working as a nurse. Applied and rejected in Canada 3 times. 3.7 GPA best MCAT 28. Excellent research and other ECs.

Visited a DO school and met with Canadian FM resident who did the DO route. Gave me lots of hope and encouragement about doing the DO route. I also have a former UG colleague who went to RCSI, now doing intern year. Looks like lots of Canadians are applying to Irish MD schools.

Just curious, would I have a shot at 4 year schools? Also what is motivating you to go the Ireland route versus say DO? I will be submitting applications this coming summer. Wondering if it is wise to consider Ireland.

Many people don't know about the DO route and are more concerned about the letters after their name.
Some are misinformed under the illusion that you can realistically practice in Ireland (as a non-EU) in case you can't come back here.
Some are reluctant to pursue a residency in the states and come back to Canada..although i have no idea why. That'll most likely be your route back to Canada a few years down the road if DO's continue losing the CMG status like they have been.
Overall, if you intend on practicing in North America especially as a non-American citizen with potential visa issues, i would go US MD/DO over going abroad.

 

[deleted158872]

Why Ireland instead of DO?

if you have EU or Irish citizenship

 

[UBC2014]

Many people don't know about the DO route and are more concerned about the letters after their name.
Some are misinformed under the illusion that you can realistically practice in Ireland (as a non-EU) in case you can't come back here.
Some are reluctant to pursue a residency in the states and come back to Canada..although i have no idea why. That'll most likely be your route back to Canada a few years down the road if DO's continue losing the CMG status like they have been.
Overall, if you intend on practicing in North America especially as a non-American citizen with potential visa issues, i would go US MD/DO over going abroad.

US is already the main residency point for Canadian IMGs anyways. So I agree I dont understand the confusion of some posters. 75% of Canadian IMGs in the 2015 match were to the US.

 

[nessy5]

US is already the main residency point for Canadian IMGs anyways. So I agree I dont understand the confusion of some posters. 75% of Canadian IMGs in the 2015 match were to the US.

UBC2014 question for you... Ive been reading some of your posts about the statements of need for canadians. I have an acceptance to RCSI so I am trying to understand the whole process the best I can. If I were to match to a US residency program, but fail to secure a statement of need I would not be able to attend the program? I also hold an Irish passport so is there an Irish equivalency to the statement of need that they could write me to attend a US residency program?

Thanks!

 

[PhysioMD]

Good question for those with Irish passport!! Not sure personally contact Irish medical council or whomever ASAP. But you are correct re statement of need. You will need to obtain one to be accepted to US residency. So you will need to look at the year prior in 3 years and make a prediction so during applications to US you can list those programs just in case ie you don't want to apply to 50 surgery spots, get into one then find out Canada doesn't need surgeons. So this sucks because in a way you will be potentially " wasting" application money to apply to the needed programs as a backup.

You might be able to do residency in the UK quite easily as an Irish national as long as you are near the top of your class.

 

[RCSI student]

UBC2014 question for you... Ive been reading some of your posts about the statements of need for canadians. I have an acceptance to RCSI so I am trying to understand the whole process the best I can. If I were to match to a US residency program, but fail to secure a statement of need I would not be able to attend the program? I also hold an Irish passport so is there an Irish equivalency to the statement of need that they could write me to attend a US residency program?

Thanks!

A statement of need is a requirement in obtaining a J1 visa to be legally allowed to do your residency. If you are a Canadian who does not have a U.S. passport or Green Card then you will need this. If you fail to secure, you will not be able to attend the program. I will ask one of my Irish colleagues about the J1 process from their end.

All info is here: http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/hcs-sss/hhr-rhs/postgrad-postdoc/index-eng.php

 

[UBC2014]

UBC2014 question for you... Ive been reading some of your posts about the statements of need for canadians. I have an acceptance to RCSI so I am trying to understand the whole process the best I can. If I were to match to a US residency program, but fail to secure a statement of need I would not be able to attend the program? I also hold an Irish passport so is there an Irish equivalency to the statement of need that they could write me to attend a US residency program?

Thanks!

There have been other posters in similar situation of having 2 citizenships. This is something you need to contact the ECFMG directly ASAP. My understanding is that you must get your SON from your place of most recent permanent residence. So if you lived in Canada all your life up until med school, then Canada. But if you lived in ireland as a permanent resident (not on a visa for school etc)/ prior to med school then you could use Ireland.

This is my understanding, but you will have to find out. It would be greatly appreciated if you could post back - and tag me, so that I can share with others who also have 2 citizenships and may have lived in other countries other than Canada( citizens of the world as I like to say!).

 

[nessy5]

There have been other posters in similar situation of having 2 citizenships. This is something you need to contact the ECFMG directly ASAP. My understanding is that you must get your SON from your place of most recent permanent residence. So if you lived in Canada all your life up until med school, then Canada. But if you lived in ireland as a permanent resident (not on a visa for school etc)/ prior to med school then you could use Ireland.

This is my understanding, but you will have to find out. It would be greatly appreciated if you could post back - and tag me, so that I can share with others who also have 2 citizenships and may have lived in other countries other than Canada( citizens of the world as I like to say!).

Based on the ECFMG website, you need a letter from the country you were most recently a permanent resident of... So the question becomes since I have Irish citizenship, does me studying there for 4 years classify me as a permanent resident? I know that non-irish need a visa and therefore their years as a student cannot count towards residency status... I dont know if my passport changes this! Endless questions!

 

[UBC2014]

Based on the ECFMG website, you need a letter from the country you were most recently a permanent resident of... So the question becomes since I have Irish citizenship, does me studying there for 4 years classify me as a permanent resident? I know that non-irish need a visa and therefore their years as a student cannot count towards residency status... I dont know if my passport changes this! Endless questions!

Hard to say, definitely ask them! It may work out in your favour I think..

 

[nessy5]

Hard to say, definitely ask them! It may work out in your favour I think..

Cheers! I also go to UBC by the way..

 

[Gos81238ia]

if you have EU or Irish citizenship

Even if you have EU citizenship, that lets you do the intern year in Ireland, doesn't help you get back to Canada if that's your ultimate goal. Becoming even a family doctor in Ireland takes years, once year of internship and then at least 5 years of further training, if you can get on the "scheme" in Ireland, which if you are non-Irish born will be tough. Training for other specialties in ridiculously long and is not a realistic path to get home afterwards, you really do need to do residency in the states or Canada

 

[PhysioMD]

Interesting because DO programs released a 100% match rate between US and Can. Most people end up in the USA (wisely so I suppose since your profession will be more recognized and respected).

I encourage everyone to investigate things on your own but there are a ton of resources about DO in Canada as there have now been several DO grads matching to Canadian family med. There might be a GP in your region who is a DO.
I've had the chance to talk with a GP who graduated DO and they said there are pros/cons to all options (Europe, Carib, DO route) but the way the IMG things are going it will likely get much much worse for Canadians and it would be foolish to not give the DO application a chance. Given the actual disaster that is our healthcare system, I have no hope for any improvements or increase for IMGs; wouldn't be surprised if they cut spots in half next year.

I am personally very torn between a shot at DO next cycle and Ireland.

 

[deleted158872]

Interesting because DO programs released a 100% match rate between US and Can.

even MDs don't have 100% match rates.

 

[UBC2014]

even MDs don't have 100% match rates.

Sure they do, many individual MD schools have 100% match rates in the U.S.

But, what PhysioMD meant was that Canadians studying at USDO programs had a 100% match rate this year. Nothing incredible, as the sample size was small of about 30 in the graduating 2016 cohort.

 

[deleted158872]

I mean overall.

 

[PhysioMD]

Not true. Please look up the facebook group for CanadianDO students. They posted info on there and it is a 100% match rate for Canadians in DO programs.
This really should serve to inform students to make a wise choice. Going abroad, especially without EU passport is a 50/50 shot.

 

[UBC2014]

Interesting because DO programs released a 100% match rate between US and Can. Most people end up in the USA (wisely so I suppose since your profession will be more recognized and respected).

I encourage everyone to investigate things on your own but there are a ton of resources about DO in Canada as there have now been several DO grads matching to Canadian family med. There might be a GP in your region who is a DO.
I've had the chance to talk with a GP who graduated DO and they said there are pros/cons to all options (Europe, Carib, DO route) but the way the IMG things are going it will likely get much much worse for Canadians and it would be foolish to not give the DO application a chance. Given the actual disaster that is our healthcare system, I have no hope for any improvements or increase for IMGs; wouldn't be surprised if they cut spots in half next year.

I am personally very torn between a shot at DO next cycle and Ireland.

Re bolded: Not much to do with recognition of "profession" ... they are doctors... but more so to do with the fact that most of them just had much better chances in the US for their respective fields. Or logistics of the AOA match happening before the Canadian Match, so those that applied to Canada and the US for FM/IM...preferred to simply just match in the US, rather than risk a sure spot at solid residency program, for a chance at a Canadian FM/IM program.

 

[PhysioMD]

Most people in Canada have no clue what DO is, even current MD staff I've asked for advice.

 

[UBC2014]

Most people in Canada have no clue what DO is, even current MD staff I've asked for advice.

Oh, I don't disagree at all. More so meant, that when you're a board certified anesthetic, or radiologist or FM/IM...they don't really go out of their way to look at MD/MBBS/MCBH/DO...they just refer to you as the X specialist.

I'd venture that most DOs practicing in Canada, are pretty hidden - general public and staff alike generally wouldn't have much reason to "look into" where you got your degree from lol. There really aren't that many with DO degrees in Canada, but it realistically doesn't matter too much at any rate.

It's like how your undergrad doesnt really matter for med school applications, and then similarily for residency apps(well. kinda). You're in a new "level" so to speak with newer qualifications that supercede the past. Of course this is a broad generalization!

 

[Gos81238ia]

Based on the ECFMG website, you need a letter from the country you were most recently a permanent resident of... So the question becomes since I have Irish citizenship, does me studying there for 4 years classify me as a permanent resident? I know that non-irish need a visa and therefore their years as a student cannot count towards residency status... I dont know if my passport changes this! Endless questions!

Your Irish passport means you don't need to register with the Irish authorities for the "student visa" to live and study in Ireland. As an EU citizen, you are allowed free travel

Not true. Please look up the facebook group for CanadianDO students. They posted info on there and it is a 100% match rate for Canadians in DO programs.
This really should serve to inform students to make a wise choice. Going abroad, especially without EU passport is a 50/50 shot.

It's much more than 50/50, especially coming from Irish schools. Also important to look at the cumulative match rates; many who stay for the intern year etc. match the year after.

 

[RCSI student]

It's much more than 50/50, especially coming from Irish schools. Also important to look at the cumulative match rates; many who stay for the intern year etc. match the year after.[/QUOTE]

This is an important point that is often overlooked by applicants. The 2 and 3 year match rate at schools like UCD and RCSI approaches 100%. Its rare for someone to be chronically unmatched.

 

[PhysioMD]

If you are trying to match on a 2nd or 3rd attempt though how bad of a red flag is that? I mean do they just end up in the worst programs in the worst locations? I personally from what I've researched of some horrible residency matches
(Mostly Carib grads) it almost seems like in that situation you would have a better life and career being an NP in a better location or something.

 

[Gos81238ia]

If you are trying to match on a 2nd or 3rd attempt though how bad of a red flag is that? I mean do they just end up in the worst programs in the worst locations? I personally from what I've researched of some horrible residency matches
(Mostly Carib grads) it almost seems like in that situation you would have a better life and career being an NP in a better location or something.

The number of attempts really isn't the biggest problem. The issue is, for those people who are going for a 2nd or 3rd attempt, how many of them have fails on their steps or low scores etc? That causes them to either not meet cutoffs for programs or be filtered out of other programs in ERAS. Most programs allow 1-2 years out from clinical experience so that's not the issue. If someone had a family issue or was struggling with Step 1 and took a year off to finish their exams with decent scores, then they have nothing on their application causing programs not to look at them. Plus, with a year off, you can write Step 3 making yourself more appealing to programs and apply for an H1B visa, opening up options.

Location can be an issue, but any IMG has to ask themselves when applying, would you rather complete residency in a less than ideal location or never be able to practice medicine? Residency is temporary, only a few years. After that, you are free to go anywhere you like and you'll be able to practice medicine. IMG's often have to compromise on location, that's how it is. Again, most from Irish schools match to one of their top 3 choices. For those who don't they're usually thrilled to have a job instead of being unmatched! And there's always the possibility of lateral transitioning once you already have your foot in the door at a US residency.

 

[RCSI student]

If you are trying to match on a 2nd or 3rd attempt though how bad of a red flag is that? I mean do they just end up in the worst programs in the worst locations? I personally from what I've researched of some horrible residency matches
(Mostly Carib grads) it almost seems like in that situation you would have a better life and career being an NP in a better location or something.

I agree with what Gos81238ia said above. It really comes down to the individual but, one year out will not be held against you most of the time. There are so many confounders in all the match stats which makes it tough to generalise.

 

[CanaD0c]

Is it harder to match in Canada with DO vs Irish MBBS?

 

[UBC2014]

Is it harder to match in Canada with DO vs Irish MBBS?

No. In fact its slightly easier since USDO is considered CMG in BC still. And you'd be much closer(and cheaper) flight to Canada for electives. Otherwise its not any different, same IMG pool in every other province.