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Not trying to be a troll...but I am very curious how people think about this. Please explain why you go to pharmacy school, pre-pharmers. Thank you.
Why do people still consider going to pharmacy schools when they already know there won't be a job?
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In no particular order:
1. They believe they will enjoy a career as a pharmacist.
2. They want to be in healthcare but want to avoid direct patient contact.
3. Could not get into medical school.
4. Wanted a "doctorate" degree.
5. Liked hard sciences (chem, biochem, etc)
6. Want a job that pays well without overtime hours.
7. Bought into the lie that they will have a job that is always in demand and offers a stable and secure career.
1. They believe they will enjoy a career as a pharmacist.
2. They want to be in healthcare but want to avoid direct patient contact.
3. Could not get into medical school.
4. Wanted a "doctorate" degree.
5. Liked hard sciences (chem, biochem, etc)
6. Want a job that pays well without overtime hours.
7. Bought into the lie that they will have a job that is always in demand and offers a stable and secure career.
Maybe I am just a blinded Pre-Pharm kid but if the job market is trash why does the Bureau of Labor Statistics say otherwise? Oh and anyone that starts a convo off by saying "Not trying to be a troll..." is doing just that.
http://www.bls.gov/ooh/healthcare/pharmacists.htm
http://www.bls.gov/ooh/healthcare/pharmacists.htm
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You should understand that any market is a function of both supply and demand, further stratified by factors such as locale and debt. If all the jobs are in rural areas, people will have to move. Higher supply and stagnant demand in metro areas will pressure wages downward. Average pharm student debt > 130k and rising. You okay with this if wage drops to 70k? 80k?
I still don't believe the reality is nearly as terrible as presented on SDN, but these concerns do exist. Add to this the impingement of PBMs on reimbursement, the encroachment of other midlevel practitioners in the spaces pharmacists would like to occupy, lack of billable services and the threat of US healthcare reform, and you have the recipe for an uncertain future
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You are right... I am sure the BLS does not take ANY of that into consideration when formulating their statistics (sarcasm for those that cant tell).
Education in general is costing more, with less job security. Average bachelors degree earners have over 35k in loans with no real jobs waiting for them.
With Federal and local forgiveness programs on the rise there are also ways to help eliminate some if not most of that debt if you are willing to comply.
Education in general is costing more, with less job security. Average bachelors degree earners have over 35k in loans with no real jobs waiting for them.
With Federal and local forgiveness programs on the rise there are also ways to help eliminate some if not most of that debt if you are willing to comply.
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Not my problem ... these kids better know how to pull people's strings during Midyear and related events. Getting a job at CVS is no longer a gimme and may even REQUIRE a community residency in a few years. Finance, business, software engineering, medicine and dentistry are far more practical options to pursue.
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Jeez, what's with the sarcasm -- as an aggregate measure, it doesn't. In addition, there are limitations to the methodology itself. http://www.bls.gov/emp/ep_faq_001.htm
"No real jobs?"
Forgiveness programs aren't guaranteed - neither for the job nor the program. Why subject yourself to 4 years of pharmacy school and debt with that expectation? (+ residency). CVS, Walgreens and Rite Aid won't offer you any of that. Retail comprises 70% of pharmacist jobs.
If you really want to take the risk no one will stop you, but it may not be worth the opportunity cost if the motive is financial gain or simple service. For a "real job" that pays well why not business and tech? For a "real job" in healthcare, why not PA or those other professions?
Like I said, I'm not a doomsday proponent, but people have to do their due diligence before sinking 4-6 years in school + post grad training at the cost of 150k
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You are taking the 2 words from my statement really personally. Maybe I should have said "guaranteed jobs" instead of "real jobs".
Nobody said the forgiveness programs were guaranteed either. I said they are available. I guess you did not get my point. Its ok.
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Maybe you should use a different word than "personally" also
Perhaps you mean "literally." No one has "guaranteed jobs," but no one argued this to begin with. It all lies within a hazy spectrum.Available is one thing - common is another. If the odds are 20%? 30%? It's a gamble. If 20 out of 100 pharmacists are on PSLF, is that worth banking on? If, out of those 20 pharmacists, 5 work in a remote area under something like IHS, is that something a person would want to consider? It comes down to individual considerations. If a person is okay with working there, no problem.
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Why do people do law? Or English, History, Medieval Studies, Theater, Dance?
A lot of people make really bad financial and life decisions. People decide based off what they know and that doesn't mean they know everything they need to know.
People spend more time researching smartphones than they do college or careers or themselves. It's not surprising to see many people get duped into college and pursuing useless fields or careers w/a good chance of under- or unemployment.
The BLS has already been discussed and discredited in the pharmacy forums. Prepharmers should really go there and take a look more to learn about the field. It talks "growth." When I started Rx school 6-7 years ago, it was 28%. Believe that? 28%! Now what is it? Half that in just 6-7 years. And we had less pharmacy schools and slightly smaller class sizes back then. There are schools yet to graduate their 1st class. So you figure it out. What do you think? And we're not talking increasing supply. Even law is growing. Ask law students how they feel about the job market at 10% and pharmacy at 14%. Then look at physician assistants at 38%! Is it any wonder why there's so many saying do PA? Nursing is okay but getting pretty bad and saturated too.
Plus BLS is national. More posters can't find work and say "because of my situation, I cannot relocate." Well that's too bad. You've been warned. BLS doesn't break markets up by region. And we know a lot of urban areas, NYC/NJ/Philly, Chicago, FL, CA, desirable areas are really saturated and almost impossible. Other areas will have openings no matter how many students we put out.
And people get offers before graduation but the job offer thread is less these days. And think, you working 20-30 years in retail? Can you survive that long in retail? A fairly decent amount hate their CVS/Wag/RAD jobs even when they liked it as a tech/intern before. People change and retail itself is changing to more remote, mail order, unrealistic metrics and less job security. Young people don't think in long-term time horizons of decades. They see 1st job offer and not about the future of the field which has been discussed already in the pharmacy forum.
If you go to Rx school or any higher ed, just avoid debt like the plague. It'll kill you for the rest of your life and retirement if you let it hang or grow too big.
A lot of people make really bad financial and life decisions. People decide based off what they know and that doesn't mean they know everything they need to know.
People spend more time researching smartphones than they do college or careers or themselves. It's not surprising to see many people get duped into college and pursuing useless fields or careers w/a good chance of under- or unemployment.
The BLS has already been discussed and discredited in the pharmacy forums. Prepharmers should really go there and take a look more to learn about the field. It talks "growth." When I started Rx school 6-7 years ago, it was 28%. Believe that? 28%! Now what is it? Half that in just 6-7 years. And we had less pharmacy schools and slightly smaller class sizes back then. There are schools yet to graduate their 1st class. So you figure it out. What do you think? And we're not talking increasing supply. Even law is growing. Ask law students how they feel about the job market at 10% and pharmacy at 14%. Then look at physician assistants at 38%! Is it any wonder why there's so many saying do PA? Nursing is okay but getting pretty bad and saturated too.
Plus BLS is national. More posters can't find work and say "because of my situation, I cannot relocate." Well that's too bad. You've been warned. BLS doesn't break markets up by region. And we know a lot of urban areas, NYC/NJ/Philly, Chicago, FL, CA, desirable areas are really saturated and almost impossible. Other areas will have openings no matter how many students we put out.
And people get offers before graduation but the job offer thread is less these days. And think, you working 20-30 years in retail? Can you survive that long in retail? A fairly decent amount hate their CVS/Wag/RAD jobs even when they liked it as a tech/intern before. People change and retail itself is changing to more remote, mail order, unrealistic metrics and less job security. Young people don't think in long-term time horizons of decades. They see 1st job offer and not about the future of the field which has been discussed already in the pharmacy forum.
If you go to Rx school or any higher ed, just avoid debt like the plague. It'll kill you for the rest of your life and retirement if you let it hang or grow too big.
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I am still amazed at the massive amount of students who still consider pursuing a career in pharmacy. This is exactly why new schools keep opening left and right. Schools become a ridiculous scam today. They lure the naive students in...rack up millions in tuition costs, then throw them out on the street struggling with finding a job while on a crazy amount load of debt. They never show students the reality of a saturated job market.
The BLS Statistics blah blah blah is a joke. They don't really reflect the actual reality. All numbers are "estimated". Come on...Be real. It's just like the government lying to the citizen about how rosy our economy is an how long the unemployment number is...5% ....blah blah blah...
The BLS Statistics blah blah blah is a joke. They don't really reflect the actual reality. All numbers are "estimated". Come on...Be real. It's just like the government lying to the citizen about how rosy our economy is an how long the unemployment number is...5% ....blah blah blah...
The BLS does not take into account that pharmacy schools graduates over three times more students than there are projected job openings. The number of graduates is still going up as more schools open each year. The remaining job openings are typically due to: 1) retirements and 2) termination of older pharmacists, #2 which seems to be more frequent.
8. Hearing that pharmacy is bad and that they will be in $200k+ debt but choosing to remain in denial.
Love how you follow up your "Not trying to be a troll" statement with this comment. No real content. Should get some pepper for that salt.
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Good luck pursuing pharmacy. If the degree doesn't land you an income after graduation, try becoming an air conditioner mechanic:
https://www.reddit.com/r/pharmacy/comments/3f3mfe/using_my_pharmd_degree_to_become_an_air/
Thanks! I have family in the AC business and it is booming here in Arizona.
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Might be good idea to look into the dual PharmD/HVAC cert
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Where does everyone live? I know people still graduating getting jobs. I know someone recently who just switched jobs.
Since you are here in AZ, let me just tell you that jobs aren't great in Tucson or Phx. It is only going to get worse as the U of A wants to double their class size from 100 to 200. Right now, no pharmacies outside of CVS will be hiring staff positions in Tucson this year. So, good luck in 4+ years.
In a saturated area. I know people who didn't get jobs. People who got jobs they wanted and are happy. People who got jobs and are miserable (retail ppl usually). Many are in some post-grad training though like residency so can't say. There's a decent mix of everything. Depends on the area. There's a lot of schools around me so I imagine what I say has some importance for some readers here.
Everyone's experiences vary and it's not always what you expect. One thing I have seen is instability in my area that many don't account for. I know of business/pharmacies that have closed and see pharmacists who worked 20-30 years now struggling. They can't pay kids' 60K pharmacy school tuition, mortgage, new car, new crap, brand-name, designer, this, w/e. I'm exaggerating a little but they don't seem to have prepared well for retirement, a big issue in the US economy for everyone that you young'uns don't know much about. So they still have to work. Problem is, they're too old. And guess what? You will be too one day. Don't think you're young, better, and will work forever. You won't and trust me, every young person thinks that way. No one saves for rainy seasons. Those old-timers were too cushy, spent too much, and made more than any of us likely ever will (buying power, inflation, cost of living accounted for). Job hunting is not easy for them as it could've been just 6-8 years ago.
And these people worked in the best times we have ever seen. They made more money relative to their buying power, stocks in their time did tremendously well and made millions over their lifetime with their partner/spouse. And still cannot retire because of the average or high-flying pharmacist lifestyle that some prepharmers desire (Benz's, BMW's, etc). So do you really fancy your chances especially w/those student loans they didn't have? In reality, like everyone else (not just pharmacists) you'll have to tune down the lifestyle and prioritize.
UGAZ is right. Those of us who recently graduated remember entering the field because there were actual job shortages and sign-on bonuses. I don't think prepharmers today even know what a sign-on bonus is. So the motivation for picking pharmacy has always been similar to today. But back then, no one experienced the effects of job saturation. Fast-forward 6-8 years later, now people are feeling it and the old-timers in particular are paying the price. Yes they should've been prepared but if they're struggling, what odds will you have knowing your salary is falling with inflation and cost of living is always going up? So is it any surprise to see actual pharmacists send warning signs about borrowing 6 figures for a field that is shifting to more automation, mail-order, lower reimbursement, increased pharmacy competition (CVS buying Target anyone? Target can't compete?) to a direction of more "clinical, counseling, billing of MTM services that make nothing for pharmacist that even Chapman dean acknowledges there's problems? Can your career wait for something we're not sure will ever happen, to happen? For a job you can do that doesn't yet exist and no one has any idea about? Will there be enough of those jobs?
In terms of college scamming, http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/13/b...-fraud-still-receive-us-funds.html?ref=topics
UGAZ is right. Pharmacy school is clearly not in that situation thankfully, but the marketing, baiting of students by selling dreams, hopes, don't match the current or projected economic reality and direction the field is heading (mail-order, even vending machines). It's deceptive and we know it, well except for some prepharmers. The most disingenuous ones tend to be newly opened, private schools in particular.
Prepharmers today have access to more knowledge on the job market/conditions than previous years. With more internet access and pharmacy doomsday posters like me, you can be more aware of the profession than we were. Arm yourself with knowledge by searching the forums to make better informed decisions. I don't think ignorance is trolling and am willing to believe that prepharmers just aren't aware or have a hard time relating to what some say about the job situation. Either cause they're in an entirely different area, or have a hard time imagining it. And I get that, hard to believe unless you experience it. USA isn't a well-stirred pot of soup. Parts of it are too salty, parts are just perfect, parts are too watery, it's not the same area to area, YMMV.
I've repeated so many times, research the career/area(s) you want to be in. Then prepare yourself, make better decisions, find tech/intern work, etc. I wish I knew then what I know now and would've taken it more seriously than be the kind of person who got in w/the bare minimum stats. I definitely would've taken school more seriously, not that I was a bad student but I would've done things differently. Knowing what we know can make you take school more seriously and better position yourself. It's not discouraging, it's telling the reality that schools like Chapman won't tell you so you can do what you need to do to meet that reality. And in some cases, that means not going to Chapman, USC, "insert absurdly overpriced Rx private school here."
Oh and citing the BLS just proves our point that we've been trying to tell you. We're not scaring you guys but if we don't sound alarmist, no one would pay attention. Just be forewarned that your expectations based off BLS won't match what you'll see years later.
I also enjoy how none of the prepharmers cite US News anymore. If the evidence you cite to justify pharmacy no longer agrees with your narrative, just throw it away? Come on, #27 ain't bad at all. We only dropped like 22 places in 1 year, great field right?
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This statement is very misleading. In fact, the number of clinical pharmacist jobs will always less than # retail pharmacist jobs. It's extremely hard to land a pure clinical pharmacist job, just FYI. Today, you gotta do residency and have network/connection in order to land a clinical job.
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Poor word choice
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Residency and fellowship? Those are two different career paths, buddy.
Do you feel that doing a joint PharmD/MBA program helps the job outlook when you graduate?
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What type of work would you hope to gain with the addition of the MBA?
if you search "pharmd mba" you'll come up with many results and opinions on it. search is a great tool to find info about the pharmacy field, highly recommend.
imo, pharmd/mba isn't that helpful. it depends on the school offering the dual degree as well and the connections offered. i have little to no background on this topic but i think mba's offered at top business schools (Harvard, U Penn, Stanford, etc) have somewhat different focuses than a dual degree pharmd/mba. the image of the elite schools conjure more corporate, very high level, competitive people. dual/degree is quite specific more focused on augmenting the pharmd than opening up new career paths in finance, etc.
pharmd/mba would only help job outlook i think if you had a very focused, clear route to what you want and even then might not help. work experience is more important and ability to actually do the job. if you can get connections, and good work ethic w/out an mba, not sure why you'd do it.
to improve job outlook, work experience alone > mba alone.
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PharmD/MBA with no experience is a hard sell. Consider that 60-70% of MBA are career switchers (intentional and not). Once you choose to get an MBA at one school you basically used your reset card and can't get another one. Don't do a dual degree unless:
1. You have a good idea how it can help you achieve a concrete goal that a better brand wouldn't help with. Not easy considering most people, including business majors, don't exactly end up where they plan, but it's possible
2. You don't think you'll get into a better MBA school OR go to an already good school with a top MBA program e.g UNC, USC, UMinn, UW
3. You don't foresee yourself ever switching careers OR want to move up in a small company that isn't a routine feeder to top business schools. Again, somewhat difficult to evaluate because your mentality changes once you get into the real world for a few years
And/or
4. You don't foresee ever wanting to returning to school again and can make use of the saved time
1. You have a good idea how it can help you achieve a concrete goal that a better brand wouldn't help with. Not easy considering most people, including business majors, don't exactly end up where they plan, but it's possible
2. You don't think you'll get into a better MBA school OR go to an already good school with a top MBA program e.g UNC, USC, UMinn, UW
3. You don't foresee yourself ever switching careers OR want to move up in a small company that isn't a routine feeder to top business schools. Again, somewhat difficult to evaluate because your mentality changes once you get into the real world for a few years
And/or
4. You don't foresee ever wanting to returning to school again and can make use of the saved time
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In response to the OP, here are my 2 cents:
While I am yet to see a profession that does not struggle with saturation issues in the urban areas, a career in pharmacy can be very rewarding.
More so with deliberate planning. This is why it is important to understand first hand, the nature of the career you intend to pursue before diving in; particularly true for retail positions. It will help align your perception with reality. I think one of the posters above made this point by implying that people spend less time researching career options.
However, another truth is that 20 years from now, the saturation topic will still be discussed at length as a reason to ignore a certain career path in healthcare (in this case, pharmacy), as has been for the past 10-15 years.
Therefore, if after your research and/or via gaining some experience (i.e. volunteer, shadowing, etc), you are certain, and desire to pursue a career in pharmacy, go ahead and do so. Don't back down merely because of saturation issues.
If you can afford flexibility, you will rule the pharmacy job market. This is all under the assumption that you end up not developing a "niche" along the way that will separate you from the majority. Need I mention the "who-you-know" jackpot too? You never know whom you will meet!
While I am yet to see a profession that does not struggle with saturation issues in the urban areas, a career in pharmacy can be very rewarding.
More so with deliberate planning. This is why it is important to understand first hand, the nature of the career you intend to pursue before diving in; particularly true for retail positions. It will help align your perception with reality. I think one of the posters above made this point by implying that people spend less time researching career options.
However, another truth is that 20 years from now, the saturation topic will still be discussed at length as a reason to ignore a certain career path in healthcare (in this case, pharmacy), as has been for the past 10-15 years.
Therefore, if after your research and/or via gaining some experience (i.e. volunteer, shadowing, etc), you are certain, and desire to pursue a career in pharmacy, go ahead and do so. Don't back down merely because of saturation issues.
If you can afford flexibility, you will rule the pharmacy job market. This is all under the assumption that you end up not developing a "niche" along the way that will separate you from the majority. Need I mention the "who-you-know" jackpot too? You never know whom you will meet!
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You pre-pharms don't even know how to read the BLS site which predicts 20%+ unemployment for new grads. For the period of 2012-2022 the BLS is projecting 4,140 new jobs each year. They're also projecting about 6,800 pharmacists leaving the profession each year. So that's a total of about 11,000 available jobs for new graduates each year. If we assume there are 15,000 graduates yearly, that is 4,000 unemployed new grads or 26%. If you want to say there will only be 14,000 new grads you're still at 21%. If you think my methodology was wrong then look at what the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services says which is 14% unemployment overall for pharmacists in 2025.
Sources:
http://www.bls.gov/ooh/healthcare/pharmacists.htm
http://www.bls.gov/emp/ep_table_110.htm
http://bhpr.hrsa.gov/healthworkforce/supplydemand/usworkforce/projections/pharmacists.pdf
Sources:
http://www.bls.gov/ooh/healthcare/pharmacists.htm
http://www.bls.gov/emp/ep_table_110.htm
http://bhpr.hrsa.gov/healthworkforce/supplydemand/usworkforce/projections/pharmacists.pdf
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they just don't want to hear the truth...that's all
That or we have a passion for what we are going into and not just looking for an easy paycheck. Maybe that is just me though.
I agree with passion thingy but its scary thought of going into career that is constantly going down. By the time we graduate, there is likelyhood of not having too many jobs. I remember hearing one pharmacist being so deseperate that he was ready to take tech job when he couldn't find pharmacist position. Even the company i work at also giving intern hours to newly hired graduates so they can get 40 hours. I am applying and honestly, i want to get out. But i know i couldn't do anything else in health care so forcefully sticking to it.
Well not everyones situation is like mine but I will not have many student loans, if any, by the time I graduate and my wife is from South Dakota which has 100% job placement for graduates. She has family there so we don't mind moving to the middle of nowhere. I can understand some concerns if you are looking for a specific big city job that is over-saturated. I live in the PHX area now and everyone I have talked to seems to be oblivious to the job situation. The last Pharmacist thought I was trying to joke with him when I asked if it was hard to get a position after school. He graduated 2 years ago.
Well i know for sure PHX/ tuscan wont have jobs by the time we are out. NJ/NYC/CA have same situations. I know range of people from hospital to retail to privately own pharmacy, they all have warned me against pharmacy.
Its not about being best. What if there is no opening how they are going to hire "best people".
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There's no way that there will "never be an opening". That's just unrealistic. Now if you are unwilling to relocate if needed or will only work in one area such as retail, then yeah you might have a problem.
Networking is also very important, make connections, keep in contact, do favors and when you need a job one day call on those people. Pharmacy is a career just like any other career, it requires business savvy as well.
Sounds like you should not apply... why would you waste 4 years of your life for nothing?
Dont worry about me, Me/my family have very strong contacts to set me up anywhere i want to. I am just saying this to general audience here. I am sure not many people have strong contacts and they are relying on thinking that there will be job handed to them when they are out, its actually kinda sad.
Agree on all that, have been doing this from the time i got into college. Still that doesn't take away my concern of getting employed in near future.
So in one comment you say that you are "set up anywhere you want to" because of amazing family contacts and in the next you are "concerned about getting employed in the near future". Odd.
Yes, despite of having contacts it still worries me..
Then I go back to my other statement... maybe you should not apply.
i will repeat again, stop worrying about me. Start worrying about getting employed, good luck!
Good luck with Midwestern!
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Not quite true. I know several residency trained pharmacists, including myself, who had trouble finding a job. Now I want to switch jobs and have been looking for a year...nothing.
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I don't understand this thread at all. If someone has a passion for pharmacy and they want to do it, who are you to tell them not to? Maybe some of us aren't in it to get a fat paycheck or live a perfect life, some of us have a passion for the field and are rewarded by merely being able to do that job. To say there will be NO jobs is unrealistic. Yes there may be less jobs, but that doesn't mean there's none. Just like every other job out there, you have to be flexible and work hard to get a job. If you truly love pharmacy and you know it is something you want, having to relocate or taking a job in a branch of pharmacy that maybe isn't your number one perfect choice shouldn't matter that much, because in the end you're still getting to do something you love. Reading this post and seeing some of the prepharmers saying things like "I don't even want to do this anymore" and "I regret this choice" highly concerns me, because if that's how you feel you shouldn't be in the field to begin with. If a few statistics and concerns turn you away from the field completely, then I don't think you made the right choice to pursue this anyways.
Yes it may be hard to find a job, yes we may have some student loans, yes we may have to make sacrifices along the way, but that just means we need to work hard for the things we want, not turn away and give up because circumstances are less than ideal and we won't just be handed what we want on a silver platter.
Don't get me wrong, I am totally aware of the concerns and have put countless amounts of thought into them as well, but in my personal opinion it just fuels me to work harder, and the passion I've developed for this field will always be enough to overcome these concerns.
Yes it may be hard to find a job, yes we may have some student loans, yes we may have to make sacrifices along the way, but that just means we need to work hard for the things we want, not turn away and give up because circumstances are less than ideal and we won't just be handed what we want on a silver platter.
Don't get me wrong, I am totally aware of the concerns and have put countless amounts of thought into them as well, but in my personal opinion it just fuels me to work harder, and the passion I've developed for this field will always be enough to overcome these concerns.
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