Why do many Ortho groups have only NON-surgical DPMs?

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GymMan

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Again, this is what I've noted. It kind of runs parallel to the MD-DPM title debate. This is not to inflame but to understand and educate all who are trying to find out what Podiatry's scope and allowability is in the medical community.

If DPM's are the preminent F&A guys, WHY would almost every Ortho group I've looked up have the DPM -- as the NON-surgical guy? It seems like they may have a few MDs that do the cuts but restrict the DPM to "other" foot care. Anyone see or explain this better?

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During your extensive years in clinical rotations, residency, and podiatric practice?

I think it was during his high school career day in his town of under 50000 people
 
Actually, there is some credibility to his statement, though that is changing considerably.

I know of quite a few orthopedic groups that have DPM's on their payroll and the DPM's roll is predominately non-surgical or at the most it involves relatively basic forefoot "lump and bump" procedures. And remember, that there were/are DPM's that ACCEPTED these positions!!

Once again, this is definitely changing, since the trend now is for orthopedic groups to now hire DPM's for surgical expertise of the foot/ankle. But please remember, these orthopedic groups are pretty smart. Even if the DPM is starting with a very fair/high salary, it is still significantly less than a foot/ankle orthopedic surgeon would demand for the same position. I don't know of any orthopedic surgeon that starts with a salary of under $250,000, and we all know that these groups can hire an excellent DPM for well under that number without any compromise of care, or in most cases they will be hiring a DPM that provides better care.

If you want to see just ONE example of a large orthopedic group that employs two podiatrists that basically don't perform any surgery (the group even has 2 foot & ankle orthopods in the group), just do a google search for the "Rothman Institute" in Philadelphia. It's one of the most successful orthopedic groups in the U.S.A. and they treat many of the professional athletes in Philly, but the DPM's in the group are basically non surgical.

Additionally, occasionally there will be a classified ad in the back of The Journal of Foot & Ankle Surgery looking for a podiatrist and it will state that it is a "non-surgical" position.
 
This whole 3yr residency thing is fairly new and its sinking in slowly in the field (not many pods have the 3yr surgical on their resume), also changes are occurring as we speak to the field that will make it better ... its all a matter of time and patience ...
 
During your extensive years in clinical rotations, residency, and podiatric practice?
No, by researching about every DPM I can find at many Ortho groups either on the internet, phone books of cities' local yellow pages, or listed in databases online. It's not hard to look up a group practice and look at profiles of all the doctors they have.
 
Actually, there is some credibility to his statement, though that is changing considerably.

I know of quite a few orthopedic groups that have DPM's on their payroll and the DPM's roll is predominately non-surgical or at the most it involves relatively basic forefoot "lump and bump" procedures. And remember, that there were/are DPM's that ACCEPTED these positions!!

Once again, this is definitely changing, since the trend now is for orthopedic groups to now hire DPM's for surgical expertise of the foot/ankle. But please remember, these orthopedic groups are pretty smart. Even if the DPM is starting with a very fair/high salary, it is still significantly less than a foot/ankle orthopedic surgeon would demand for the same position. I don't know of any orthopedic surgeon that starts with a salary of under $250,000, and we all know that these groups can hire an excellent DPM for well under that number without any compromise of care, or in most cases they will be hiring a DPM that provides better care.

If you want to see just ONE example of a large orthopedic group that employs two podiatrists that basically don't perform any surgery (the group even has 2 foot & ankle orthopods in the group), just do a google search for the "Rothman Institute" in Philadelphia. It's one of the most successful orthopedic groups in the U.S.A. and they treat many of the professional athletes in Philly, but the DPM's in the group are basically non surgical.

Additionally, occasionally there will be a classified ad in the back of The Journal of Foot & Ankle Surgery looking for a podiatrist and it will state that it is a "non-surgical" position.
Thanks very much. :thumbup: I saw that group along with many others like that. I just got the feeling for some reason that the confidence factor the MD/DOs have that do the hiring in those groups, would rather have DPMs remain non surgical in many instances.

I'm not saying there isn't ANY DPMs doing surgical in Ortho groups, just that the preponderance as of now continues to be hiring on a non surgical basis. Even in local hospitals near me in a city with a metro pop. well in the millions, DPMs run their own practice or the few that work Ortho do so as non surgical.

Again, thanks for the affirmation. ;)
 
Actually, there is a database that is available to orthopedic surgeons. I remember several years ago speaking with the office manager of a large orthopedic group. He was telling me that the group was considering hiring a DPM.

Prior to hiring a DPM, he said that he had a book that had the demographics/statistics of orthopedic practices across the country, and it included the number of doctors in the practice, the specialties in the practice, whether or not the practice employed physician assistants, nurse practitioners, physical therapists, and podiatrists, and the role of the DPM.

I'm not sure if the book was published by the AMA or the orthopedic society, or a private company that they subscribed to, but I know it exists/existed. His group actually used this book to call a few groups that employed a DPM to help make their decision. Ironically, they ultimately hired a DPM and it didn't work out very well so the relationship only lasted about 2 years. But that was several years ago.
 
I've never seen a non-surgical pod with an ortho group. All the guys I know have been hired to be the foot and ankle surgeon. However, even a non-surgical pod could be a source of revenue for the group with office procedures, orthotics, etc. But in this day and age, there are very few orthopods that touch the foot anymore which would explain why we're seeing what we're seeing.
 
Actually, there is some credibility to his statement, though that is changing considerably.

I know of quite a few orthopedic groups that have DPM's on their payroll and the DPM's roll is predominately non-surgical or at the most it involves relatively basic forefoot "lump and bump" procedures. And remember, that there were/are DPM's that ACCEPTED these positions!!

Once again, this is definitely changing, since the trend now is for orthopedic groups to now hire DPM's for surgical expertise of the foot/ankle. But please remember, these orthopedic groups are pretty smart. Even if the DPM is starting with a very fair/high salary, it is still significantly less than a foot/ankle orthopedic surgeon would demand for the same position. I don't know of any orthopedic surgeon that starts with a salary of under $250,000, and we all know that these groups can hire an excellent DPM for well under that number without any compromise of care, or in most cases they will be hiring a DPM that provides better care.

If you want to see just ONE example of a large orthopedic group that employs two podiatrists that basically don't perform any surgery (the group even has 2 foot & ankle orthopods in the group), just do a google search for the "Rothman Institute" in Philadelphia. It's one of the most successful orthopedic groups in the U.S.A. and they treat many of the professional athletes in Philly, but the DPM's in the group are basically non surgical.

Additionally, occasionally there will be a classified ad in the back of The Journal of Foot & Ankle Surgery looking for a podiatrist and it will state that it is a "non-surgical" position.

The Pod i shadowed last summer had a similar arrangement. though he was not part of an ortho group. but being in a small township/county and his own preferences and insurance issues. he rarely did any surgery and never any rear foot stuff. he refers anything surgical to the F & A ortho (except nail stuff:D) and that F&A ortho inturn referred majority of non surgical and minor surgicl foot & ankle patholigies to him. he has a very flourishing practice. economically he is doing very great and he said he wouldnt have made ithis much income if he was doing surgery by himself and didnt got into this symbiotic arrangement. And i dnt know may be because he is not a threat to local orthos since he is not into surgery or it is just his vast knowledge. he is having very friendly relationship with all the orthos and other mds in that area. i mean its just kewl to see how Orthos and other surgeons treat him with respect and profesionalism. i didnt really found that warmth in some other docs in my local area when they hear abt podiatry. its just my expeirence. im not saying all are like that.

i guess a lot depends not just on training but the situation you are in and what the circumstances are.
 
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There are various types of arrangements and each doctor ultimately has to do what works best for him/her. I know a doctor that's pretty well trained surgically, but was hired by an ortho group to perform only relatively basic foot surgery and no ankle surgery. He does a lot of non-surgical care and a lot of sports medicine.

At first he wasn't very happy, however he has a busy patient load, great perks, never works nights or weekends and makes a HUGE income, so he learned to be very happy.

Sometimes if you can put your ego behind you and you are bringing home a very nice income, it's tough to walk away.
 
There are various types of arrangements and each doctor ultimately has to do what works best for him/her. I know a doctor that's pretty well trained surgically, but was hired by an ortho group to perform only relatively basic foot surgery and no ankle surgery. He does a lot of non-surgical care and a lot of sports medicine.

At first he wasn't very happy, however he has a busy patient load, great perks, never works nights or weekends and makes a HUGE income, so he learned to be very happy.

Sometimes if you can put your ego behind you and you are bringing home a very nice income, it's tough to walk away.


I think this is the type of arrangement that is most common for a podiatrist working in an Ortho group. Many orthopedic groups have someone who likes to do rear foot and ankle surgery. Furthermore, ankle fractures are very common in the ER and profitable to treat, so who do you think is going to do the majority of the ankle fx?
 
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I think this is the type of arrangement that is most common for a podiatrist working in an Ortho group. Many orthopedic groups have someone who likes to do rear foot and ankle surgery. Furthermore, ankle fractures are very common in the ER and profitable to treat, so who do you think is going to do the majority of the ankle fx?
So where does this leave a DPM that wants to do surgery? Avoid Ortho groups?
 
I've never seen a non-surgical pod with an ortho group. All the guys I know have been hired to be the foot and ankle surgeon. However, even a non-surgical pod could be a source of revenue for the group with office procedures, orthotics, etc. But in this day and age, there are very few orthopods that touch the foot anymore which would explain why we're seeing what we're seeing.
Yep, definitely... I'm sure a group or hospital will hire whatever member will make them money. If a DPM does that by making orthoses, wound care, nail care, etc, then that's great. I just don't know many people that go to their yellow pages or google "orthopedic group" when they need nail care or wound care, though. That is why the OP seemed a little crazy to me. Will hospitals or multispecialty groups hire non-surgical DPMs? Of course. But like jonwill, I've never seen a DPM hired/working with an ortho group unless he/she was brought there to do at least some surgery (maybe just forefoot surgery in some states/areas, but they were still hired to do cases).

Maybe the best answer to the question is that I really doubt you'd see an ABPS certified pod working with an ortho group and not doing surgery. I think the main difference with the non-surg pods in ortho groups and the more surgical ones is just ABPS certified versus non-ABPS (like those guys in PADPM's Rothman Institute example). If your end goal isn't to pass ABPS, then I don't really know why you'd go into podiatry school this day in age since most of your fellow grads/colleagues will be aiming to achieve that.
 
Once again, each DPM must make his/her own decision based on the offer. Many orthopedic groups are getting smart and hiring surgical DPM's over foot/ankle orthopedists for economic reasons. The surgical DPM's perform surgery just as well, for a lot less $$$. As I previously stated, a foot/ankle orthopedist commands at least $250,000 if not more, and these groups can pay a DPM a lot less for the same quality work.

So they're not necessarily doing this because they "love" DPM's or have a new found respect for DPM's. It's a matter of dollars and cents. Business is business.

On a side note, I know an ortho group that hired a DPM and they received a nasty correspondence from the American Association of Foot & Ankle Orthopedic Surgeons or whatever that group is called, stating the difference between them and DPM's and that no ortho group should hire DPMS, yada, yada, yada and a lot of other propaganda.

The emergency room issue is very interesting. As a DPM, many years ago I fought for and obtained ER privileges, and ran into a LOT of opposition by the orthopods when it came to ORIF of ankle fractures. They didn't care if I was called in for a diabetic foot or some "trivial" garbage, but if I got called for a fibular fracture they went ballistic.

It's called turf wars because it was money OUT of THEIR pocket....as if they weren't making enough on knees, hips, wrists, elbows, shoulders.........
 
I could see why an ortho group would want to hire a non-surgical DPM. If that group has orthopods who do foot and ankle surgery, they want to keep the surgical cases for themselves but don't like the idea of referring out the ingrowns, plantar warts, diabetic foot care, and other non-surgical foot issues that they don't do. If they refer out, they make no money. If they keep those patients in the practice, then they will make some money. If the patients some day develop a surgical problem, then they are still an active patient of the practice and will likely seek surgical care there.

For example, a recent patient had bunion surgery by a local orthopod. She developed an ingrown nail and called the ortho office about it. She was told that they don't treat ingrown nails, so she ended up in my office. If that group had a DPM on staff then they would have gotten the business. Of course they don't want any surgical DPM's because they have three F&A orthos on staff to divvy up the foot surgeries.

I've seen this arrangement before at the Tucson Orthopaedic Institute:
http://www.tucsonortho.com/Physicians/specialty.html

I've seen it in other groups but they use Nurses (costs even less than DPMs) to do nail care and wound care.

Every little thing you guys can do in-house (DME dispensing, PT, orthotics, radiology, diagnostic ultrasound, lab services, etc.) can potentially make you money. The question will be whether you are willing or able to do it. Everything you send out is money walking out the door. This is not to say you should try to keep every last thing in-house. If you can't do a good job at something, say administering PT, then refer it out for the sake of the patient.

You could make more money by fabricating orthotics by hand in your own office or garage, but do you really want to spend your weekends screwing around with Barge cement, polypropylene, and rolls of top covers when you could just have a professional lab do a quality job for $60-$130? On the other hand, if you started your own orthotic lab company and had a staff to make orthotics, plus solicit orders from other local DPM's then that might be a different story...

This is the same scenario that PCP's face. Many treat ingrown nails on their own, but many realize they just aren't able to provide the same level of care as I do so they send them to my office.

You can get your own CLIA number (allows you to run a lab) and do your own lab services such as fungal cultures, or you could just call the local lab for a pick-up and get on with your day. http://www.cms.hhs.gov/CLIA/downloads/HowObtainCLIACertificate.pdf

This premise also applies to non-medical services. If you do your own bookkeeping, you don't have to hire a bookkeeper. If you have your staff do the cleaning at the end of the day, you don't have to hire a custodian. You get the idea.

You will eventually decide if it's worth your time and effort to do something or if you'd rather just pay someone else to do it so you can move on to stuff you prefer to do. These are the same type of decisions that apply to basic living. You could cook your own dinner, make your own clothes, or grow your own vegetables and save money, but sometimes you'd rather just pay someone else to do it.

I'm guessing the F&A orthopods don't feel like "wasting" time debriding nails for $39 when they could free up that time slot for a potential surgical patient who has a $3000 procedure. They'd rather turf it to their DPM.

I hate Mondays:
Skiday1.jpg
 
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This makes a-lot of sense.......Don't like it, but it makes sense:mad:





I could see why an ortho group would want to hire a non-surgical DPM. If that group has orthopods who do foot and ankle surgery, they want to keep the surgical cases for themselves but don't like the idea of referring out the ingrowns, plantar warts, diabetic foot care, and other non-surgical foot issues that they don't do. If they refer out, they make no money. If they keep those patients in the practice, then they will make some money. If the patients some day develop a surgical problem, then they are still an active patient of the practice and will likely seek surgical care there.

For example, a recent patient had bunion surgery by a local orthopod. She developed an ingrown nail and called the ortho office about it. She was told that they don't treat ingrown nails, so she ended up in my office. If that group had a DPM on staff then they would have gotten the business. Of course they don't want any surgical DPM's because they have three F&A orthos on staff to divvy up the foot surgeries.
 
I'm guessing the F&A orthopods don't feel like "wasting" time debriding nails for $39 when they could free up that time slot for a potential surgical patient who has a $3000 procedure. They'd rather turf it to their DPM.

im just joking : if they send me 10 orthotics and 10 nail avulsion cases every day. i would happily send them hammer toe and bunions. let them deal with it while i get to make $450 in 20 mins :D. ha ha
 
im just joking : if they send me 10 orthotics and 10 nail avulsion cases every day. i would happily send them hammer toe and bunions. let them deal with it while i get to make $450 in 20 mins :D. ha ha
That's the spirit!
 
NatCh,

Excellent post. I'm not used to reading more than one sentence from you! Either you drank too much coffee or just ate an energy bar.:laugh:

I couldn't agree more with your statements.
 
NatCh,

Excellent post. I'm not used to reading more than one sentence from you! Either you drank too much coffee or just ate an energy bar.:laugh:

I couldn't agree more with your statements.

Ha ha! Don't encourage me! My posts tend to ramble on sometimes, so lately I've been trying to keep it short.

dtrack22 said:
Volkl Unlimited...good choice Natch. Oh, and the post was very informative!

The Volkl's are treating me right. The temp hit 60F on the mountain by noon yesterday, so I think the season is pretty much over. I took the ski racks off the car yesterday and converted it to summer mode. I look forward to doing more of this again soon:

rockdrop-1.jpg


tablemidair.jpg


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Nat youre such a badass lol.

chicagos killin me, it just snowed yesterday (APRIL?!?) and the winds still howling.

im missin hood and bachelor like theres no tomorrow. There isnt a molehill to be seen within 200miles. Massive sad panda.
 
Nat,

Wasn't one of those pics the one where you broke your collarbone? :D

Ha! No, that crash had no documentation other than in the subsequent op report. The only big wreck of mine ever captured in pics was this one in CO a couple of years ago:

HospitalLine.jpg


Moab2006011Medium.jpg


Moab2006012Medium.jpg


Moab2006013Medium.jpg
 
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You got some impressive gastroc/soleus muscles. Just sayin.
 
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dang man ridin single speed i see, how in the world do you get uphill? I guess only downhill? is that a full suspension?
Downhill only??? Bahhh! I live for the climbs. If it gets steeper, I just pedal harder.

It's a hardtail (suspension in the front only). Flagstaff was my 2nd choice of places to live. Mt. Elden has some fine trails; I hope you're making good use of them.
 
Downhill only??? Bahhh! I live for the climbs. If it gets steeper, I just pedal harder.

It's a hardtail (suspension in the front only). Flagstaff was my 2nd choice of places to live. Mt. Elden has some fine trails; I hope you're making good use of them.



haha totally! just waiting for things to warm up man, its nice today but its like snowy then windy then warm and repeat....there is no consistency! but yeah I have a hardtail too, although yours looks a hell of a lot nicer than mine..im guessing thats because you have a surgeons budget LMAO :p

oh and ps im an avid biker and you explaining what a hardtail was made my week....thank you anyways what are the trails like up in the pac northwest? askin since thats where I want to practice.
 
oh and ps im an avid biker and you explaining what a hardtail was made my week...
Oops, sorry. I knew you are an avid biker, so I should've known you'd know what a hardtail is.
 
pac nw trails have one great thing going for em over flagstaff/sedona trails....the lack of heat during the summer months. Im as white as it comes though and used to western washington climate, so im biased. Im also partial to big green trees.
 
pac nw trails have one great thing going for em over flagstaff/sedona trails....the lack of heat during the summer months. Im as white as it comes though and used to western washington climate, so im biased. Im also partial to big green trees.

And less wind. Don't forget about the Flagstaff wind!
 
And less wind. Don't forget about the Flagstaff wind!


oh my god the wind is one of the main reasons im excited to get the hell out of this sorry excuse for a city.....come on california!
 
TaiChi, I won't rain on your parade so I'll pull this last comment. :) Just for you.

Just get a retro-fitted bldg in N. Cali is what I hear. ;)
 
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TaiChi, I won't rain on your parade so I'll pull this last comment. :) Just for you.

Just get a retro-fitted bldg in N. Cali is what I hear. ;)

farewell.

Anyways I hear from my sister in the bay area that-at least around there-it's a better idea to get with an ortho group than a podiatric group is there validity to this statement?
 
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