Why are vet salaries a big secret?

[LivestockDoc]

It seems that one can easily find salary info for all manner of med specialties when visiting the AMA website, but on the AVMA site, you have to pay big bucks to get a copy of their Biennial Report (or whatever the hell it's called) in order to get any salary information. Why are vet salaries such a big secret? Don't people who are thinking about entering this profession have a right to know this information?

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[shortnsweet]

http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos076.htm

That was rather easy to find on Google through the governmental bureau of labor statistics??

I think it's hard because salaries are SO varied---you might be paid far less in one state for the same job in another.

It's easier to give stats like : http://atwork.avma.org/2010/10/22/graduates-and-the-job-market/

Just my .02.

 

[Jochebed]

It seems that one can easily find salary info for all manner of med specialties when visiting the AMA website, but on the AVMA site, you have to pay big bucks to get a copy of their Biennial Report (or whatever the hell it's called) in order to get any salary information. Why are vet salaries such a big secret? Don't people who are thinking about entering this profession have a right to know this information?

The average starting salary of graduate veterinarians is published every fall in JAVMA. The most recent was published in the October 1, 2010 edition. Average starting salary is $67,000 and change; a little higher for small animal exclusive.

 

[LivestockDoc]

http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos076.htm

That was rather easy to find on Google through the governmental bureau of labor statistics??

I think it's hard because salaries are SO varied---you might be paid far less in one state for the same job in another.

It's easier to give stats like : http://atwork.avma.org/2010/10/22/graduates-and-the-job-market/

Just my .02.

I've seen those sites. That's not what I'm looking for. My fault for not making myself clear. I'm not interested in starting salaries. I'm looking for median salary info for the various specialties (anesth, optho, SA surg, LA surg, etc). And I'd like to know why AVMA makes you pay for this info instead of offering it right on their website like the AMA does.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

LivestockDoc - the best place to go for that information may be the specialty websites themselves. I know ACVP has very extensive salary information, broken up by region, age, experience, industry vs academia, etc.

 

[LivestockDoc]

LivestockDoc - the best place to go for that information may be the specialty websites themselves. I know ACVP has very extensive salary information, broken up by region, age, experience, industry vs academia, etc.

Thanks for the tip! I'll check those sites out and see what I can find.

 

[SilverSpyderGT]

<style type="text/css">ASLAP also has a pretty comprehensive salary survey for lab animal med, from 2008:

http://www.aslap.org/SalarySurvey2008.pdf
</style>

 

[Ben and Me]

The AAEP has a huge study that they conducted recently as well. I found it somewhere on their website, but I can't remember if it's in the members only section....

So, for general practice, maybe check out AABP, AAHA, etc?

 

[LivestockDoc]

The AAEP has a huge study that they conducted recently as well. I found it somewhere on their website, but I can't remember if it's in the members only section....

So, for general practice, maybe check out AABP, AAHA, etc?

Thank you, I'll check those out. So far, I am having no luck. I still think it's ludicrous that the AVMA website doesn't list median specialty salaries. It's all a big mystery.

 

[sumstorm]

I have a copy of the 2007 report, but why not ask your school to get a copy for you via interlibrary loan?

 

[LivestockDoc]

I have a copy of the 2007 report, but why not ask your school to get a copy for you via interlibrary loan?

Thanks, Sumstorm. I was thinking of doing that very thing. I think the 2011 edition just came out today. I'll have to check at school. Perhaps the vet school library has a copy of 2009 and/or will be getting a copy of the 2011 edition.

 

[Bill59]

Why are vet salaries such a big secret?

That information is only available to those who can demonstrate the secret handshake. Rules is rules.

 

[LivestockDoc]

That information is only available to those who can demonstrate the secret handshake. Rules is rules.

Dang it! I knew there was a trick to it!

My suspicion is the AVMA doesn't want people to know how abysmal the salaries are even for the specialties, so they don't post them anywhere. Whereas med specialty salaries are quite decent, so AMA has a page listing them all. Helps entice new med school applicants.

To me, the lack of information on vet specialty salaries is as big a negative as being transparent about how low they are. (If you have to hide it, or want to charge people big bucks to buy a book about it....that can't be good.)

I want so much to be excited about getting accepted to vet school, but the thought of being 50 and $250,000 in debt coupled with a crap salary even if I specialize.....well, it really puts a damper on my enthusiasm. That's why I want to find salary info. If I knew I could make over $100,000, I'd feel better about this commitment.

It's ironic. Everybody says, "If you want to make a lot of money, don't go into vet medicine." But I'm not the type who needs to make a lot of money...unless I go to vet school.

 

[Tobysgirl81]

Dang it! I knew there was a trick to it!

My suspicion is the AVMA doesn't want people to know how abysmal the salaries are even for the specialties, so they don't post them anywhere. Whereas med specialty salaries are quite decent, so AMA has a page listing them all. Helps entice new med school applicants.

To me, the lack of information on vet specialty salaries is as big a negative as being transparent about how low they are. (If you have to hide it, or want to charge people big bucks to buy a book about it....that can't be good.)

I want so much to be excited about getting accepted to vet school, but the thought of being 50 and $250,000 in debt coupled with a crap salary even if I specialize.....well, it really puts a damper on my enthusiasm. That's why I want to find salary info. If I knew I could make over $100,000, I'd feel better about this commitment.

It's ironic. Everybody says, "If you want to make a lot of money, don't go into vet medicine." But I'm not the type who needs to make a lot of money...unless I go to vet school.

You WON'T make a lot of money in veterinary medicine. Unfortunately, that's just the way it works. I've sort of resigned myself to the fact that I'm going to love what I do and be in debt for the rest of my life

http://www.valuemd.com/veterinarian_earnings.php

I just googled "Veterinary Medicine Specialty pay", and that's the website I came up with. I would wager the nutritionists I know don't make that much money, but I haven't specifically looked up their salaries so I can't say for sure.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

I think the bigger issue is the debt, rather than the salary. Given that (let's face it) we're never going to make as much as human doctors due to the fact that people just are not willing to pay as much for animals vs people (nothing wrong with that, just a fact of life), our salaries, especially those of specialties, are quite acceptable. Maybe not acceptable given our level of education, but acceptable given the market of our practice.

However, the debt is what is concerning. Making 60-90k with no or little debt is a hell of a lot different than making that same and paying back loans of anywhere from 150-250k. You'll be paying anywhere from 20-30k, depending on your plan, of loan repayments per year - a third of your salary, for years and year on end. THAT, to me, is a lot more worrying than the actual salary.

 

[LivestockDoc]

.....

However, the debt is what is concerning. Making 60-90k with no or little debt is a hell of a lot different than making that same and paying back loans of anywhere from 150-250k. .....

Yep, exactly. If the schooling was free, I'd be very comfortable on a vet's salary. But after all the hard work I put into getting to this point, I am starting to consider not going. Losing lots of sleep over it too.

http://www.valuemd.com/veterinarian_earnings.php

I just googled "Veterinary Medicine Specialty pay", and that's the website I came up with. I would wager the nutritionists I know don't make that much money, but I haven't specifically looked up their salaries so I can't say for sure.

Yeah, that's the thing that bugs me. The only site that would give accurate salary info is the one that has chosen not to provide it....the AVMA.

 

[JosephKnechtDVM]

It is so sad that the profession's leaders do not give a damn about the growing debt problem of the current vet student generation because most of them were able to pay off debt and get into a practice quicker a few decades ago than is possible today. The current focus on educational reform neglects to address the basic fact that vet education costs too much and takes too long for what you are learning and will be able to earn with that knowledge. It is disheartening that other "mid level" healthcare providers in human medicine like nurse practitioners and PAs earn on the average as much or more than a associate DVM in small animal practice for example. I do not even include the extreme mid level healthcare salaries of nurse anesthetists who can earn $ 125,000 or more just administering anesthesia.

If academia could design realistic tracks or majors within veterinary medicine so that a SA practitioner could finish in 5-6 yrs with in depth, productive knowledge or a similar large/food animal practitioner, then at least 2 yrs of learning about things you will never use and yet will still cost you 2 yrs of tuition. I think the same could be done for those who want to enter non practice based careers also. Maybe also with deeper knowledge you could be more productive to earn the greater salary that would make paying back loans less of a burden. Specialization is a great way of reducing the costs of acquiring the necessary knowledge to be productive in your occupation.

Joe

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Yep, exactly. If the schooling was free, I'd be very comfortable on a vet's salary. But after all the hard work I put into getting to this point, I am starting to consider not going. Losing lots of sleep over it too.

I know there's been a lot of nay-saying, but I would not let that be a major deterrent - as in driving you completely away from the field. I think the problem is, we are saturated with ideas of what a livable salary should be, and don't realize that 100K is not necessary to live well, even with debt.

A financial guy told me once "You know, you freak out thinking that 70K a year is not a lot of money. You've been renting and living off loans the whole time, it is just a number to you But when you actually start making that....you realize that it IS quite a lot"

We may never be rich, but we can definitely live comfortably. And honestly being lucky enough to do what you love *is* a very rare thing - think of all the people in the world who are not able to do that. I may be making crap as a resident, but I love being able to do what I want to do, all day, every day, even if some days it feels a bit overwhelming. Sounds cliche, but it's very true.

 

[sumstorm]

Specialization is a great way of reducing the costs of acquiring the necessary knowledge to be productive in your occupation.

Joe

I disagree strongly with specialization as the standard. There are 5 year models that don't do specialization, so I don't see those options as being intricatly connected. However, a five year model has other issues. I would be less oppossed to a 5 year model than to a specialization model. However, given our current model of education with low scholarship numbers for vet students, a five year model where students are considered dependents would shift vet med into an even more socially elite group of applicants; those whose families won't contribute to EFA are already short changed in undergrad; grad programs don't require EFA. And our government won't emancipate an adult (or near adult) to eliminate EFA, probably because very few in our government have ever had to deal with parents that believe that an offspring that is old enough to vote and go to war is old enough to pay thier own bills. These are challenges that some in pharm are dealing with now, with the change in that program

 

[turnandburn]

Can't you apply for some kind of income based repayment program?

 

[david594]

Can't you apply for some kind of income based repayment program?

You can, but you really need to run the numbers versus your anticipated salaries. The amount you end up paying is very close to the standard 25 year repayment option.

 

[heavenfordogs]

Just found this website if anyone is interested.

http://veterinarynews.dvm360.com/dv...d/Article/detail/706444?contextCategoryId=378

The numbers they give are way higher than I would have ever guessed.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

I seriously wonder if the AVMA "massages" its data. Because I know very few vets making that much, unless 1)they have been in practice for decades, 2) live in an expensive or inflated area, or 3) are owners or co-owners.

 

[Nexx]

I seriously wonder if the AVMA "massages" its data. Because I know very few vets making that much, unless 1)they have been in practice for decades, 2) live in an expensive or inflated area, or 3) are owners or co-owners.

Doesn't really matter, because the point of the article is that there has been an increase/decrease in earnings since 2007, not that the 'average' companion animal salary is X amount

But yeah, probably includes outliers like specialists, owners, etc

 

[Bill59]

I seriously wonder if the AVMA "massages" its data. Because I know very few vets making that much, unless 1)they have been in practice for decades, 2) live in an expensive or inflated area, or 3) are owners or co-owners.

As a matter of fact some vets have been in practice for decades, some live in inflated areas, and some are owners and co-owners.

 

[StealthDog]

The amount you end up paying is very close to the standard 25 year repayment option.

That will depend on your income and your debt level... eventually my payments will likely be similar to a 25 year repayment plan as my income increases, but this year my payments are $14 per month. As a new grad, the income based repayment plan makes a huge difference and it kept me from having to defer my loans for a year.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

As a matter of fact some vets have been in practice for decades, some live in inflated areas, and some are owners and co-owners.

True, some. But not average. I guess based on the people I know, including specialists, that the numbers seem high to be "averages".

 

[Bill59]

Probably because you're young. So you hang out with mostly young vets. It's all those rich old practice owners driving up the average.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Ha ha, maybe. And I may also be swayed by working at a teaching/referral hospital, where the pay is absolute crap. We have boarded, PhD-ed DVM specialty clinicians with decades of experience getting 90k. WTF mate?

 

[katryn]

Here's a question for the salary subject:

If the info isn't easily available, how do you go about finding what the average vet of your years experience makes in a certain place? For example, if I move to Colorado after vet school, how do I find out what is a good salary for first year graduates there? I assume it's just not done/extremely rude, to call around and ask. I'd hate to ask for a salary that's way above average, but I also appreciate myself and what I'm worth, and don't want to get jipped for not knowing.

 

[Minnerbelle]

Hey Livestockdoc, why don't you head over to the vet library at the VTH? They have a bunch of vet econ, vet business type journals/magazines. I'm sure if you looked through those, you'd be able to get some info. You just go up the stairs through the doors right next to the doors to the main entrance and it's just right there. No need for key access or anything, so I'm pretty sure it's open to everyone.