Why are Nurses paid so well???

[beetlerum]

Now I am not a particularly prideful person, I keep to myself. But when some of the same people who seek to dump their scut on me, try to sort of unconciously, make themselves feel superior over me, or assuage their insecurites at my expense, by comparing passing accomplishments in a nursing curriculum with a 4.0 in rough and tumble weed out science classes I think that pointing out the flaws in this idea to be in order. The funny thing is is that this idea is more prevalent than I thought and not necessarily related to personality issues between me and my co-workers. Nurses actually think they are trained in basic sciences. They are not. They are trained in the basics of medicine. Doctors are not even trained in the sciences like scientists are--they just learn enough to take a good guess at what the scientists are talking about. People who are really trained in the basics of science like me have learned a sense of humility about how little we know about the mysteries of human physiology and other avenues of science. I don't off-the-cuff smugly act I like I know everything in front of someone I imagine my intelectual inferior just because I took some practical, do this so you don't kill your patients, type of science classes, nor would I imagine those types of course to be remotely similar to weed out pre-med course in terms of difficulty.

So I think this type of thread is valid in that sense. Not as a means to denegrate nurses as professionals or people, though.

Everything you say may be true. However, as you mention, doctors are not really trained in the sciences either. They have only a very basic understanding of chemistry and physics and the "weed out" courses in chemistry and physicis are usually not even the more advanced options possible. Many premeds don't even take calculus based physicis. So on the principle of he who lives in a glass house shouldn't throw stones, doctors shouldn't go around belitting nurses' coursework.

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[flighterdoc]

flighterdoc (?), you have made many antagonistic comments directed toward nurses in the past. It's no surprise to me that you were dissatisfied with the nursing courses and found much to criticise. I would have been shocked if you had actually said something positive.

I am not an advocate of nurses doing anything more than nursing. I don't believe nursing education is on a par with medical school. I defy you to find a single post I have ever made where I said such a thing. I am an advocate for nurses being treated with respect for the contributions they make. You've been a med student for how long now? Surely you must recognize that if it were not for nurses, your job would be much more difficult, if not outright impossible.

Yes, my agenda is sticking up for my fellow nurses. That's not a crime. Somebody has to defend us.

I wont bother trying to find any posts by you, since I never claimed that you said anything worth repeating, remembering or discussing. Here's a message for you from Copernicus: The solar system does not revolve around you.

Apparently you felt it proper to jump in and respond to a comment I made to another (lovemylabs) and go on and on about how great nursing is. Good for you.

However, if you feel it's important, go and find all the posts I made about nurses, and link to them here.

BTW, my comments in this thread are not about nurses, they are about 'lovemylabs' comments about nursing 'education'; and about the salary that nurses can get in the Los Angeles area. Your agenda is to lurk around 'studentDOCTORS.net', spring-loaded to defend any perceived slight against nurses. What a shame that the tolerance you enjoy here, in an environment of physicians, is not reciprocated to physicians on the boards for nurses.

 

[tncekm]

Everything you say may be true. However, as you mention, doctors are not really trained in the sciences either. They have only a very basic understanding of chemistry and physics and the "weed out" courses in chemistry and physicis are usually not even the more advanced options possible. Many premeds don't even take calculus based physicis. So on the principle of he who lives in a glass house shouldn't throw stones, doctors shouldn't go around belitting nurses' coursework.

Many, many doctors do plenty of clinical research "in the sciences".

 

[Nasrudin]

Everything you say may be true. However, as you mention, doctors are not really trained in the sciences either. They have only a very basic understanding of chemistry and physics and the "weed out" courses in chemistry and physicis are usually not even the more advanced options possible. Many premeds don't even take calculus based physicis. So on the principle of he who lives in a glass house shouldn't throw stones, doctors shouldn't go around belitting nurses' coursework.

No I agree, no one should be belittling anyone. But understanding the reality of one's education is important. Nurse's are extremely well trained professionals whose knowlegde base has alot to do with if the patient does well or does not as far as the affect that healthcare is capable of delivering. I think a patients nurse, especially for chronic and severely ill people, is the most important person in the healthcare team. Healthcare in systems where nurses have not been professionalized, like in underdeveloped countries, are not capable of higher levels of care for that reason.

However knowing some very basic things about pH, water potential, an introduction to organ systems, and that type of thing does not mean you know the basics of experimental design, the principle of organic and physical chemistry, and how the theory of evolution explains the adaptations of organisms of the earth, along with full semester courses in cell biology genetics and so forth. It does not indicate anything inferior in fact quite the opposite, because I dont know the first thing about pharmocology, pathophysiology, signs and symptoms of disease, and methods of patient care.

The difference is I wouldn't look at a nurse who was looking in a pharmocology book to check drug interactions and say something cocky like...pharmocology huh?, yeah I studied that in school, shouldn't you know that already...it so easy. If I was that assinine, I would certainly be looked at as insane. Yet the same thing has happened to me dozens of times. This is the nature of hierarchy in the hospital environment and an example of how those dynamics contribute to the dissemination of ignorant behavior. I don't like these dynamics as they affect anyone nurses included.

 

[fab4fan]

Well stated, Nasrudin. I see docs looking stuff up all the time. No big deal; who can keep up with all the new meds/indications? It's the ones who never look stuff up that scare me, esp. when we have new research to show that there may be a particular problem with a drug, yet the doc keeps ordering it.

 

[MountainPharmD]

Another question......

Do you think there may be an education boost for nurses in the future?

Just like audiologists and Pharmacists. You remember the registered pharmacists? Now its a PharmD

Will we have some kinda NDs er whatever?

There already has been...Its called a nurse practioner. Prescriptive authority with out the need for direct supervision of a medical doctor.

 

[sdn1977]

Another question......

Do you think there may be an education boost for nurses in the future?

Just like audiologists and Pharmacists. You remember the registered pharmacists? Now its a PharmD

Will we have some kinda NDs er whatever?

Dr Leca...I'm hoping you're not trying to incite an indictment against degrees in general because I'll be happy to educate you about pharmacists since I think our degree designation & change gets lumped among other healthcare related political discussions.

The PharmD is an extremely old degree - it started in the late 1800's. It was resurrected by USC in the 1950's after WWII. It was adopted uniformly by the state of CA in the 1980's as the sole entry level pharmacy degree & since 2000 is the only degree available to obtain a pharmacy degree in the US. The reasons are myriad & of absolutely no consequence to anyone but those in pharmacy or those who choose to criticize the degree itself. The degree should certainly not be a threat to anyone in any other profession.

As for being "registered" - we must be registered with our state to practice pharmacy - its a licensing designation only. We are "registered" by passing our board exams & both BS & PharmD's (awarded in the US) can sit for the board exams. You can be a registered pharmacist with a BS or PharmD, but you can't be a registered pharmacist without a BS or PharmD.

Both degrees are able to do the same work & our licensing determines the scope of work we do, which is state specific. Both BS & PharmD's work side by side & in the same capacities.

As for ND's - they do exist in CA. That is a whole different thread.

 

[plrae12]

As far as that second statement regarding being very nice to the nurses, man...that really irks me. I'm not the kind of person to give extra treatment for someone who is being paid to do their job.

the OP was just trying to say that you should at least give them credit and appreciate them for what they do, not look down on them. As a doctor, you might be giving nurses the orders but they are people too--they have feelings. Acknowledge them and respect them professionally. There are many doctors out there who think so highly of themselves that they don't even acknowledge the nurses they work with.