Whole blood transfusion

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Maxprime

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Step2 question (tl;dr version):
Guy with obvious liver failure comes in with vomiting from bleeding varices.
P110 BP 90/60.
Hb=10, PLT=120k, prolonged PT & PTT

Q: Which transfusion product do you give? A:FFP

My question - why not give whole blood here? I know it's rare to do. But he's actively bleeding, mildly anemic (wait until we fix his volume w/ NS), needs clotting factors, and will likely need platelets.

The answer explanation just goes on and on about needing to fix the coagulopathy and volume status and provides no real explanation, just general information (typical). Is the issue here that you don't want to wait for the type & screen? Why not treat this like a trauma patient and do 3:1 NS:O-neg?

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Step2 question (tl;dr version):
Guy with obvious liver failure comes in with vomiting from bleeding varices.
P110 BP 90/60.
Hb=10, PLT=120k, prolonged PT & PTT

Q: Which transfusion product do you give? A:FFP

My question - why not give whole blood here? I know it's rare to do. But he's actively bleeding, mildly anemic (wait until we fix his volume w/ NS), needs clotting factors, and will likely need platelets.

The answer explanation just goes on and on about needing to fix the coagulopathy and volume status and provides no real explanation, just general information (typical). Is the issue here that you don't want to wait for the type & screen? Why not treat this like a trauma patient and do 3:1 NS:O-neg?

May/may not be appropriate for me to answer, I am an RN that works at an ICU, am not claiming to be a physician, just throwing out there what happened on a similiar patient.

52 yr Female with cirrhosis of the liver, active bleeding esophageal varices, vomited aproximately 600 ml over the past 4 hrs in the ER, hemogram done on admission to icu Hgb 11.7, and like you mentioned FFP transfusion was in progress (4 units) for the immediate regard to decreasing bleeding times, patient placed on 50 mcg/hr of sandastatin. We dont typically transfuse PRBC/Whole blood in response to Hgb until Hgb <9 or 8.

Shrug.
 
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Step2 question (tl;dr version):
Guy with obvious liver failure comes in with vomiting from bleeding varices.
P110 BP 90/60.
Hb=10, PLT=120k, prolonged PT & PTT

Q: Which transfusion product do you give? A:FFP

My question - why not give whole blood here? I know it's rare to do. But he's actively bleeding, mildly anemic (wait until we fix his volume w/ NS), needs clotting factors, and will likely need platelets.

The answer explanation just goes on and on about needing to fix the coagulopathy and volume status and provides no real explanation, just general information (typical). Is the issue here that you don't want to wait for the type & screen? Why not treat this like a trauma patient and do 3:1 NS:O-neg?

Whole blood isn't really used much anymore, more risks of infection and reaction and more useful and cost effective to fractionate the blood off. Although it looks good on paper, the immediate risk here is the coagulopathy, so treat that first to prevent further bleeding (plug the hole, otherwise you are just treating symptoms) (and as the RN above said, the Hb of 10 is acceptable)
 
like the others said...Hb is 10 and that is acceptable. I've seen patients in the hospital with Hb's of 6.5 and they are still on "observe only"....prolonged PT and PTT, so give em clotting factors in FFP
 
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Whole blood isn't really used much anymore, more risks of infection and reaction and more useful and cost effective to fractionate the blood off.

This is what I was looking for, thanks.
 
I'll caution you that my post is related to real life and not necessarily the boards, although it likely does have applicability there as well.

That guy needs blood, NOW! He's actively hemorrhaging and is hemodynamically unstable (we'll assume so, forgetting for the moment that liver failure patients might chill w/ SBP's in the 80s-90s at baseline). Yeah, his hgb is 10, but it's not really 10--you bleed whole blood, not hgb. It'll drop (profoundly) over the next couple of hours. This guy needs replacement of his O2 carrying capacity, and that means PRBCs, NOW!

You're on the right track thinking about whole blood--because that's really what any patient who's seriously bleeding needs replaced. The military uses it for hemorrhagic shock (read up on the walking blood bank) and has seen good results, it's probably being studied in civillian populations, but I doubt any hospital actually stocks it (whole blood is very difficult to store, which is one of the reasons it's separated into components).

This guy does need replacement of his clotting factors, so FFP is certainly indicated. But's its not your first step. Why? Because it takes so long--you need to blood type him, unthaw it and then wait for it to come up. Are you gonna wait for the next hour for the FFP to finally come while the dude circles the drain? No, pRBCs first, then FFP(yeah you can try some NS first to see how he responds, but i'm betting that was already mentioned in the question stem--even if he did respond you'd type and cross for at least 6 b/c he'll start bleeding again soon enough). Really, your resus fluid of choice here is a 1:1 ratio of pRBCs to FFP, w/ the addition of platelets as needed.

The truth is that these patients probably should be handled similarly to a trauma case as you eluded to. Although I'm not sure exactly what you're referring to w/ the "3:1 NS:O-neg" remark--the new paradigm of massive transfusion is a 1:1:1 ratio of PRBCs:FFP:plts titrated to a MAP of 65 w/ warm extremities (hemostatic resuscitation).
 
Excellent points made about difficulty of storing whole blood and the time to thaw FFP. I was thinking along the same lines - once you get this guy volume resuscitated with just FFP or NS, you'll discover his real Hb is in the toilet. Many thanks for the detailed response, much appreciated.
 
Correct his clotting factors first and see what happens. A Hgb of 10 is nothing to get up in arms about. Go conservative first.
 
Correct his clotting factors first and see what happens. A Hgb of 10 is nothing to get up in arms about. Go conservative first.
A variceal bleed is not the time to opt for "conservative" management.

I see what you're saying though, but I think you're approaching it from the wrong perspective. If his hgb is 10 on the third recheck the morning after in the unit, then yeah, it's nothing to be worried about. But on the initial blood draw, when the guy's puking up blood? No man, if the patient has hemodynamic compromise from hemorrhage, that's an indication for blood transfusion.
 
Step2 question (tl;dr version):
Guy with obvious liver failure comes in with vomiting from bleeding varices.
P110 BP 90/60.
Hb=10, PLT=120k, prolonged PT & PTT

Q: Which transfusion product do you give? A:FFP

My question - why not give whole blood here?

1) Where are you going to get it from? As far as I know, unless the patient has donated autologous units, the blood providers in the US don't produce whole blood. Correct me if I'm wrong - I'm Canadian (and we sure as hell don't have whole blood, mostly because of #2 - see below)

2) It would have been in the blood bank fridge for days to weeks. The coag factors would be markedly decreased and the platelets activated. Stored whole blood = red cells.

If you were in a war zone, and had access to walking donors, and could collect FRESH WARM whole blood, this wouldn't be a terrible option. Cross your fingers he doesn't get hep C or whatever (if he doesn't have it already, I guess). In a first world country, use components.

I know it's rare to do. But he's actively bleeding, mildly anemic (wait until we fix his volume w/ NS), needs clotting factors, and will likely need platelets.

This is a multiple choice question, not real life. You have to pick one answer. So what's wrong with him right now? As written, his hemoglobin at present is fine. His platelets at present are fine. His coags are screwed up. Ergo, give FFP.
 
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I stumbled across this thread somewhat by accident, but hopefully I can provide some practical information based on my transfusion medicine training.

The answer to the question is FFP.
Usually controlling the coagulopathy in these patients is of paramount importance (goal INR <1.5). Given the patients low BP, tachycardia, and bloody emesis, you would certainly resuscitate him, but with IV fluids, not necessarily RBCs (see below).

ABO typing and antibody screen
This is performed on every patient who needs blood transfusion and only takes ~15-20 minutes. This is required for transfusion of ANY type of blood product (RBC, FFP, platelets, or cryoprecipitate). In some instances, a patient is wheeled in bleeding to death and we can give "emergency release" products (O-negative RBC, AB plasma) but the physician will have to sign a waiver saying that it was medically necessary to forgo ABO/Rh typing and RBC cross matching procedures.

Doesn't it take time to thaw FFP?
Plasma is almost always readily available as most hospitals contain a certain amount of "thawed" plasma in their blood banks, which still has the necessary clotting factors, although there is some reduction in the amount of Factors 5 and 8. Even if you have to thaw a unit of FFP, it only takes about 20 minutes, so the time issue here isn't significant, particularly because you are going to be pushing IVF anyway.

Understand how blood components are processed and stored.
Blood and/or blood components can be collected in one of two ways: through whole blood donation or through pheresis. When whole blood is donated, it is separated into its (3) components: RBCs, plasma, and platelets. Additives are added to RBCs, which can then be stored at 1-6C for up to 42 days. Plasma is generally frozen within 8 hours of collection and stored at -20 to -60C for up to 1 year. We freeze plasma to ensure that clotting factor levels remain stable. It takes 20 minutes to thaw a unit of plasma. Platelets are collected and stored at 20-24C for up to 5 days with gentle agitation. If platelets were stored with RBCs, essentially they would become non-functional and thus, useless. Pheresis collections helps to reduce the number of contaminating white cells in these products and allows for increased collection amounts (i.e you can collect 2-3 times as many platelets in a single donor pheresis than if you did a whole blood platelet collection).

Why not red cell transfusion?
Many sick patient's have Hb values of ~10. Most people would agree that patient's should be transfused at Hb <7 and probably should not be transfused at Hb >10 (unless they exhibit si/sx related to reduced O2 carrying capacity). Hb between 7-10 is a grey zone. There are a lot of variables in deciding whether to transfuse RBCs aside from just the Hb level (e.g., amount of blood lost (>30% of blood volume is often cited), type of blood loss (acute vs chronic), comorbidities, etc). As others have alluded to, the patient's hemoglobin may continue to fall after resuscitation, and may need RBC transfusion. You would want to know how much emesis and whether there was evidence of continued bleeding.

Why not whole blood?
Whole blood is used strictly in the military; you will not find any blood bank that collects and distributes whole blood. To my knowledge, even most autologous units are usually just PRBCs. There are a number of reasons for this. First, when giving whole blood, donor and recipient need to be ABO identical to prevent any hemolytic transfusion reactions. Remember, O negative in this situation is NOT a universal donor. When giving whole blood, you need to account for what's in the plasma, which contains anti-A, anti-B, and anti- A,B antibodies. Another reason why we no longer collect whole blood for transfusion is that the storage requirements (1-6C) essentially render platelets non-functional and over time clotting factors contained in the plasma (especially F5 and F8). So, unless you are literally taking it out of one person and immediately putting it into another, there isn't much benefit to giving whole blood. Also, we like to generally only give patients the things that they need. Giving unnecessary components only increases the risk associated with transfusion.
 
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