Who gets closest to operating without being a surgeon?

[DylanAsdale]

I can't seem to find a clear answer to this question...

Which allied health profession gets the closest to being a surgeon without actually being a surgeon?

Would this be surg first assist, or PA?

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[bradt9881]

The surgical PA iMHO. The PA will do the same work in the OR as the 1st assist PLUS take care of patients on admission, rounds, discharge, and clinic followup.

 

[Winged Scapula]

I might ask why, if you want to be a surgeon, then why don't you become one?

But yes, the surgical first assist does not have the breadth of practice that a surgical PA does. As noted above, being a surgeon is not just operating.

 

[fab4fan]

I might ask why, if you want to be a surgeon, then why don't you become one.

But yes, the surgical first assist does not have the breadth of practice that a surgical PA does. As noted above, being a surgeon is not just operating.

May I do my cynical take on the question?

"What's the fastest way I can get to be just like a surgeon without actually having to do all the hard work of going through medical school and residency?"

 

[zenman]

May I do my cynical take on the question?

"What's the fastest way I can get to be just like a surgeon without actually having to do all the hard work of going through medical school and residency?"

Corpsman in a war zone...

On second thought I was just like a surgeon when I worked in the meat market of a store during high school.

 

[fab4fan]

Corpsman in a war zone...

On second thought I was just like a surgeon when I worked in the meat market of a store during high school.

Although working in a war zone does have its drawbacks...

 

[DylanAsdale]

I might ask why, if you want to be a surgeon, then why don't you become one.

But yes, the surgical first assist does not have the breadth of practice that a surgical PA does. As noted above, being a surgeon is not just operating.

I was discouraged ever since I got a C- in my HS chemistry class... How can I get a 4.0 with all those college-level chem classes?

 

[Winged Scapula]

I was discouraged ever since I got a C- in my HS chemistry class... How can I get a 4.0 with all those college-level chem classes?

1) its a HS Chem class. Who cares?
2) who said you need a 4.0 to get into medical school?
3) you only need 1 year Gen Chem and 1 year Organic Chem; its not that much
4) seems a little dramatic to give up already

 

[bradt9881]

How do you do it? elbow grease. It helps to have ability, but there are plenty of smart people with bad grades because they didn't work for it, and plenty of average people with great grades becaause they did....

 

[Narnian]

"Opportunity is missed by most people because it comes dressed in overalls and looks like work."
-- Thomas Edison

 

[Starpower]

I was discouraged ever since I got a C- in my HS chemistry class... How can I get a 4.0 with all those college-level chem classes?

PA school is highly competitive. You won't have an easier time getting in versus med school. Goto community college and bump your GPA, if being a surgeon is really what you want. If you want to be a surgical PA, start working in healthcare (as a surgical tech, if possible).

 

[silas2642]

PA school is highly competitive. You won't have an easier time getting in versus med school. Goto community college and bump your GPA, if being a surgeon is really what you want. If you want to be a surgical PA, start working in healthcare (as a surgical tech, if possible).

Look, I'm sorry but I don't think that getting into PA school is going to be just as competitive as med school. But I agree with others who say that if you want to be the one calling the shots and holding the knife, go to med school and become a doctor.

 

[Starpower]

Look, I'm sorry but I don't think that getting into PA school is going to be just as competitive as med school.

It can actually be more competitive in some cases. This is often primarily due to the recent trend of those wrongly looking to take the 'quick route' to a PA license in lieu of going to medical school. PA schools are now looking for high GPAs, and those with good ounces of credibility are still looking for significantly substantial healthcare experience. Many have 30-50 seats and are receiving thousands of applications ... they have to weed somehow. Make no mistake that PA schools are highly competitive.

My words weren't meant as a derogatory statement 'against' med school, or as any inference that getting into those programs isn't highly competitive. I was cautioning the OP from thinking that applying to PA school is any easier or 'safer' than applying to med school. It would be ill-advised to think along the lines of, 'well, my grades won't get me into med school so I'll goto PA school instead'. Grades would count no matter which path they might choose.

My advice to the OP is to try and get out there and see for yourself. Call your local hospital and check into their volunteer programs, see if you can observe some surgeries. You might then be able to better deduce if the OR is really where you want to be, and it might give you some insight as to your future. Your grades in high school don't have to make or break you.

 

[Buzz Me]

There are no shortcuts to becoming a surgeon. If the field fascinates you, keep working towards as high an achievement as you can. And spend less time here on SDN if it's affecting your grades.

You're still in high school and already thinking about practicing?

 

[Amgen1]

It can actually be more competitive in some cases. This is often primarily due to the recent trend of those wrongly looking to take the 'quick route' to a PA license in lieu of going to medical school. PA schools are now looking for high GPAs, and those with good ounces of credibility are still looking for significantly substantial healthcare experience. Many have 30-50 seats and are receiving thousands of applications ... they have to weed somehow. Make no mistake that PA schools are highly competitive.

PA school is highly competitive. You won't have an easier time getting in versus med school. Goto community college and bump your GPA, if being a surgeon is really what you want. If you want to be a surgical PA, start working in healthcare (as a surgical tech, if possible).

https://www.miracosta.edu/StudentServices/TransferCenter/Downloads/PA PROGRAMS.pdf

http://www.washington.edu/uaa/gateway/advising/downloads/gpamcat.pdf

Although PA school is becoming more competitive it is disingenuous to state that PA school is more competitive. I know there are several factors going into admissions, but based primarily on GPA you can not state that PA school is more competitive

 

[DO2Be2013]

https://www.miracosta.edu/StudentServices/TransferCenter/Downloads/PA PROGRAMS.pdf

http://www.washington.edu/uaa/gateway/advising/downloads/gpamcat.pdf

Although PA school is becoming more competitive it is disingenuous to state that PA school is more competitive. I know there are several factors going into admissions, but based primarily on GPA you can not state that PA school is more competitive

Off-topic, but the allopathic list surprised me. I see it was taken from a legit source and refers to accepted students, not applicants. I didn't realize that there were so many schools, as recently as 2008/2009, with average MCATs in the 20's. I knew there were a few, but just from scanning the list it seems there are dozens of schools with sub-10.0 section averages. Some major universities too. Am I missing something?

 

[PUPPYBOY3765]

PA school is highly competitive. You won't have an easier time getting in versus med school. Goto community college and bump your GPA, if being a surgeon is really what you want. If you want to be a surgical PA, start working in healthcare (as a surgical tech, if possible).

Medical schools have a set of standard requirements. PA schools vary in their entrance requirements.

Medical school entrance reqs are harder. MCAT is harder than the GRE required for PA school. Not all PA school's require gchem, ochem, physics, and biology. For med school these courses must be taken for a year with all related labs. Also, many med schools require biochem and cell and molecular biology in addition to the aforementioned standard prerequisites. Some med schools require a year of calculus. My former medical school required all of these extra courses in addition to the standard courses. I was a PA before I went to medical school.

 

[morning]

Look, I'm sorry but I don't think that getting into PA school is going to be just as competitive as med school. But I agree with others who say that if you want to be the one calling the shots and holding the knife, go to med school and become a doctor.

You need more hours of patient contact to get into PA school...

This'll blow your mind: it's almost as hard to get into the nursing schools in some areas as it is to get into the MD schools. This is due to not enough faculty, not actual prestige or worthiness of the program, but don't think that certain things are going to be easy just because it's not med school.

 

[jbar]

Yeah, if you want to figure out how hard med school is to get into you have to count all the people who were pre-med during college and didn't get the grades or the MCAT score to get in, so they didn't even apply. So saying "oh, x number of people sent in applications for Y spots for med school vrs A number for B spots of nursing school" isn't a good comparison because you aren't counting the people who wanted to do one or the other but never sent in an application.

 

[PUPPYBOY3765]

You need more hours of patient contact to get into PA school...

This'll blow your mind: it's almost as hard to get into the nursing schools in some areas as it is to get into the MD schools. This is due to not enough faculty, not actual prestige or worthiness of the program, but don't think that certain things are going to be easy just because it's not med school.

It is now common for a pre-med to have many years of health care experience before applying to med school. There are many nurses and paramedics that have gotten in, for example. I worked as a PA for a long time before applying. It's also not unusual to have a strong research background.

 

[Starpower]

Medical schools have a set of standard requirements. PA schools vary in their entrance requirements.

Medical school entrance reqs are harder. MCAT is harder than the GRE required for PA school. Not all PA school's require gchem, ochem, physics, and biology. For med school these courses must be taken for a year with all related labs. Also, many med schools require biochem and cell and molecular biology in addition to the aforementioned standard prerequisites. Some med schools require a year of calculus. My former medical school required all of these extra courses in addition to the standard courses. I was a PA before I went to medical school.

True, it varies, though many do have similar requirements. And too, same that some PA school entrance requirements could be harder if you count the necessary healthcare experience (I would disagree that it is "common" for pre-meds to have this, although I'm sure, as you said, that there are those who do). Don't also forget that anatomy, physiology and micro are usual prereqs for PA school but not med. As for myself, I didn't take the GRE, but I did take (with labs) gchem, ochem, bio ... cell, biochem and calc (no labs for those last three). Didn't take physics as I knew I wouldn't take the MCAT and didn't need it for my undergrad major (always bummed that I didn't get to take it tho, I'd still like to someday).

Anyhow, Amgen, thanks for pointing that out, but my points still apply ... even with a .2 - .4 difference in matriculated GPAs, the OP still can go towards either route regardless of high school grades/GPA and also, they should be wary of thinking that PA school is all that much easier to be accepted into versus med school.

 

[DylanAsdale]

I might ask why, if you want to be a surgeon, then why don't you become one?

But yes, the surgical first assist does not have the breadth of practice that a surgical PA does. As noted above, being a surgeon is not just operating.

Would it be ridiculous to become a Surg-Tech or surgical PA and THEN go back to medical school?

There are no shortcuts to becoming a surgeon. If the field fascinates you, keep working towards as high an achievement as you can. And spend less time here on SDN if it's affecting your grades.

You're still in high school and already thinking about practicing?

I'm not in high school anymore. I already graduated. However, I used to have an account here, and was decently known in the surgery forum.

 

[PUPPYBOY3765]

True, it varies, though many do have similar requirements. And too, same that some PA school entrance requirements could be harder if you count the necessary healthcare experience (I would disagree that it is "common" for pre-meds to have this, although I'm sure, as you said, that there are those who do). Don't also forget that anatomy, physiology and micro are usual prereqs for PA school but not med. As for myself, I didn't take the GRE, but I did take (with labs) gchem, ochem, bio ... cell, biochem and calc (no labs for those last three). Didn't take physics as I knew I wouldn't take the MCAT and didn't need it for my undergrad major (always bummed that I didn't get to take it tho, I'd still like to someday).

Anyhow, Amgen, thanks for pointing that out, but my points still apply ... even with a .2 - .4 difference in matriculated GPAs, the OP still can go towards either route regardless of high school grades/GPA and also, they should be wary of thinking that PA school is all that much easier to be accepted into versus med school.

As a former PA having gone to med school, I had many classmates in med school with healthcare backgrounds. I still stand by my statement that the prerequisite courses for medical school are much harder. As a phd student and lecturer in the sciences, we found that there were more people having difficulty with ochem, physics, calculus, and not so much Micro and A & P.

As far as what you took, there are quite a few PA schools that don't even require a semester of ochem and most don't require physics at all. You do not get away with this for medical school. Also, some PA programs don't even require a GRE, while pre-meds must suffer through the MCAT. MCAT has been a weeder for some pursing medical school.

Even if you took all of those science courses (ochem, calculus, etc), it is still not the standard requirements for most PA schools. Again there are people in PA school that have never experienced some of the pre-med courses.

Having experienced both programs including a phd program in the sciences, I still stand by what I said earlier.

A former professor in my med school once stated that med school prerequisites are more demanding than the PA prerequisites: He explained that they are trying to produce a scholar and a clinician, while PA programs are more concerned with producing a clinician.

 

[Starpower]

As a phd student and lecturer in the sciences, we found that there were more people having difficulty with ochem, physics, calculus, and not so much Micro and A & P.

Well, you must not have taken those classes at the University of California like I did ... Physiology was the major weeder at my campus, the prof failed (literally) half of each class. Anatomy was no walk either, altho my Advanced Anatomy in PA school was probably a bit tougher. Anyhow, I certainly understand what you're saying (and don't think that I don't have a few beefs with more than a few PA programs). Still, remember that most PA applicants are Bio majors and most of that coursework is required for Bio degrees. I think what we've strayed from is my comment that PA school can be just as competitive to get into if not more in some cases ... and that's probably due to the number of applicants per seats at some programs, in addition to the GPA and experience requirements. If you choose to still state that it's common for pre-meds to enter in with experience, that's your thing. I go to a program connected to a med school and haven't noticed that ... nor have I on my rotations, nor in my past work history. I am not, however, inferring that healthcare experience is any type of replacement for hard sciences ... just as hard sciences can't teach experience.

Scholars versus clinicians ... yes, I can see that. Altho I would agree with Sherwin Nuland in The Uncertain Art that more emphasis needs to be on teaching the med students towards treating the patient and not just the disease.

Still use my extra Ochem lab notebook Love the lined pages. Incidentally, no need to yell ... it really doesn't make your words any more readable and it won't change my reply.

 

[Danae00]

.

 

[PUPPYBOY3765]

Well, you must not have taken those classes at the University of California like I did ... Physiology was the major weeder at my campus, the prof failed (literally) half of each class. Anatomy was no walk either, altho my Advanced Anatomy in PA school was probably a bit tougher. Anyhow, I certainly understand what you're saying (and don't think that I don't have a few beefs with more than a few PA programs). (1) Still, remember that most PA applicants are Bio majors and most of that coursework is required for Bio degrees. I think what we've strayed from is my comment that PA school can be just as competitive to get into if not more in some cases ... and that's probably due to the number of applicants per seats at some programs, in addition to the GPA and experience requirements. If you choose to still state that it's common for pre-meds to enter in with experience, that's your thing. I go to a program connected to a med school and haven't noticed that ... nor have I on my rotations, nor in my past work history. I am not, however, inferring that healthcare experience is any type of replacement for hard sciences ... just as hard sciences can't teach experience.

Scholars versus clinicians ... yes, I can see that. Altho I would agree with Sherwin Nuland in The Uncertain Art that (2) more emphasis needs to be on teaching the med students towards treating the patient and not just the disease.

(3) Still use my extra Ochem lab notebook Love the lined pages. Incidentally, no need to yell ... it really doesn't make your words any more readable and it won't change my reply.

Sorry if it seemed that I was yelling at you. I really didn't mean to.

(1) I have interacted professionally with many PAs as I have worked as a PA-C in several states. Most of the PAs I interacted with were not biology/microbiology/zoology majors, and I have interacted with many of them including organizations. Well, everyone has different experiences.

(2) As far as the emphasis in treating the patient and not the disease, that is not the issue regarding the med school professor's remark. This is what he meant: the prereq courses and the med school courses are different because med school is trying to train the individual to recognize a zebra, and many are interested in heading research projects as an MD/DO.

I stopped working as a PA and did a phd for research reasons. I finally went on to an MD program to get a much deeper understanding of pathophysiology. I wanted more than what PA school offered. My original plan was to go straight for an MD; however, I didn't get in until later, so I went to PA school.

(3) As far as Ochem goes, it is the same argument. You can go to PA school and avoid ochem.

 

[DO2Be2013]

Way back when I was in high school, our district allowed sophomores to apply to a couple of special programs. One was the vocational and technical high school, and another was a math/science magnet program called STEM.

Kids applying to vo-tech programs (cosmetology, HVAC, auto repair, etc.) were required to have taken and passed their Algebra I and English 9 courses. Interest was high among a certain segment of the student body, and seats were limited. I recall hearing that only 1/3 to 1/2 of applicants actually got a seat in a vocational program.

The STEM program required a certain (high) PSAT score, completion of honors-level sciences and at least Algebra II and Trig (by 10th grade), etc. There weren't nearly as many applicants who had both the interest and qualifications to do the program and my guidance counselor had all but assured me I could walk right in if I wanted to.

Now, does the fact that 30-50% of vo-tech applicants got accepted versus 80-90% of STEM applicants stand as evidence that, in this case, the vocational school was "harder" to get into than the magnet program? Less statistically likely for the average respective applicant, yes, but not exactly "harder." Anyone of the STEM applicants could have likely had their pick of a vo-tech program if it's what they wanted, and conversely, probably none of the vo-tech applicants could have made it to STEM.

The disparities among applicant pools probably aren't quite as distinct when comparing med and nursing/PA schools, but when people say community college nursing programs are "harder" to get into than med school because they reject more applicants, this is the analogy that comes to mind.

 

[jrob8503]

You can go to PA school and avoid ochem.

Damn, I wish I could. The differences between the MS PA programs here are pretty drastic. The one I'm hoping to apply to requires 8 hrs or gchem, 8 hrs of ochem, and 8 hrs of bios. Northwestern is starting one without almost any prereqs, and one is medical terminology, if you can believe that.

I'm more interested in working WITH physicians as opposed to being one. I've never had the desire to be captain of the ship. I've never wanted my boss's job. Besides, I'm only looking to do this for maybe 15-20 yrs.

 

[PUPPYBOY3765]

Damn, I wish I could. The differences between the MS PA programs here are pretty drastic. The one I'm hoping to apply to requires 8 hrs or gchem, 8 hrs of ochem, and 8 hrs of bios. Northwestern is starting one without almost any prereqs, and one is medical terminology, if you can believe that.

I'm more interested in working WITH physicians as opposed to being one. I've never had the desire to be captain of the ship. I've never wanted my boss's job. Besides, I'm only looking to do this for maybe 15-20 yrs.

Are you restricted to applying to one area?

I see what you mean about Northwestern. Is this what you were referring to?

Prerequisites

• A overall minimum GPA of at least 2.80 (on a 4.0 GPA scale)
• Biochemistry: one semester (a minimum of 3 semester hours or equivalent quarter hours)
• Anatomy & Physiology: one full academic year (a minimum of 6 semester hours or equivalent quarter hours). This requirement may be met by taking either one semester of Anatomy and one semester of Physiology, or two semesters of Anatomy and Physiology combined.
• Microbiology: one semester (a minimum of 3 semester hours or equivalent quarter hours)
• Statistics: one semester (a minimum of 3 semester hours or equivalent quarter hours)
• Medical Terminology Course

I think this is similar to Univ of Washington's Medex program?

If they want the biochem course to be a senior level one, a course in biology and chemistry would be helpful. Although, by doing this one adds more courses to take. But, I think it is better to be prepared.

 

[PUPPYBOY3765]

Damn, I wish I could. The differences between the MS PA programs here are pretty drastic. The one I'm hoping to apply to requires 8 hrs or gchem, 8 hrs of ochem, and 8 hrs of bios. Northwestern is starting one without almost any prereqs, and one is medical terminology, if you can believe that.

I'm more interested in working WITH physicians as opposed to being one. I've never had the desire to be captain of the ship. I've never wanted my boss's job. Besides, I'm only looking to do this for maybe 15-20 yrs.

Ochem is a really interesting course. I enjoyed it. Just requires putting time into it. Keep doing as many problems as you can. Get help as soon as you get stuck.

 

[Starpower]

(1) Now I know that statement is not true. I have interacted professionally with many PAs as I have worked as a PA-C in several states. Most were not biology majors.

"Most"? What were they? Many if not most of the students in my class have Bio degrees, and most of the PAs I've worked with have been Bio majors in undergrad. Also, it's worth mentioning that many med schools accept non-Bio degrees as well (some actually prefer them as they can lead to a more well-rounded individual). Of course, they still have to take the pre-reqs and take the MCAT regardless.

(2) As far as the emphasis in treating the patient and not the disease, that is not the issue regarding the med school professor's remark. This is: the prereq courses and the med school courses are different because med school is trying to train the individual to recognize a zebra, and many are interested in heading research projects as an MD/DO.

Yes, I'm aware of that, it's something I'm quite thankful for. A PA, particularly one without years of experience, is trained, as you said, to be a clinician and work with the more common afflictions and injuries. My comment about Dr. Nuland's opinion was an afterthought.

I stopped working as a PA and did a phd and finally went on to an MD program to get a deeper understanding of pathophysiology. My original plan was to go straight for an MD and not even bother with going to PA school. However, I didn't get in until later, so I went to PA school.

Right, which is one reason why PA programs don't care for applicants who didn't get into med school ... they want applicants who want to be PAs.

Whether or not you want to admit it (I can understand if you don't), there is a big difference between a PA and a physician. Why do you think it is easier to switch specialties as a PA versus a physician? In each specialty the physician has to know more than the PA.

I never said there wasn't a substantial difference between a doctor and a PA, you seem to think I have an issue with that. Why wouldn't I want to admit that? Only if I had some strange ego issue, I would suppose. I chose PA because I want to be a PA ... I'm fully aware of all that can entail in my future (basically it's an eventual trade-off for less school and less loans since once you get 10-20 years in a specialty you're basically as much a provider as your doc, just with less pay). I want to take the 4s and 5s (and maybe a few 3s) and let the docs concentrate on the more difficult cases.

My original statements were cautioning the OP in thinking that getting into a PA program is all too much easier than getting into med school ... trust me, it can be just as cutthroat. I've helped interview many well-qualified applicants who simply have to be turned away due to lack of seats ... and most of them were with high GPAs, science and healthcare backgrounds.

(3) As far as Ochem goes, it is the same argument. You can go to PA school and avoid ochem.

You can goto some PA schools and avoid Ochem (provided you're not doing a bio-related for undergrad). And some will let you slide with replacing the second Ochem with Biochem. Anyhow, maybe that's the way it was at your program, but it wasn't at mine ... like you said, different experiences. It's important to stay objective. Damn, have we ever steered this thread off course but hopefully readers can learn from our discussion and the OP can better figure out their plan.

From Northwestern's site:

Clinical Experience that includes direct patient care or community service is strongly encouraged but not required. In order to be competitive, an applicant should have a minimum of six months full-time healthcare employment or 1,000 total hours of hands-on patient care experience and/or community service. Applicants must demonstrate evidence of some patient care experience prior to submitting the CASPA application, but should complete the 1,000 hours by the time of matriculation.

Preference is given to applicants having experience that requires a period of training and results in direct (hands-on) patient care. Examples include, but are not limited to: EMT, Paramedic, Nurse, Medical Assistant, CNA, ER Tech, Physical Therapy Aide, etc.

Applicants are encouraged to "shadow" a PA to become knowledgeable of the role of the physician assistant, however this experience does not count as patient care experience. Evidence of community service (i.e. healthcare for underserved populations, medical mission trips, etc.) is highly valued.

... so best get crackin'!

 

[PUPPYBOY3765]

"Most"? What were they? Many if not most of the students in my class have Bio degrees, and most of the PAs I've worked with have been Bio majors in undergrad. Also, it's worth mentioning that many med schools accept non-Bio degrees as well (some actually prefer them as they can lead to a more well-rounded individual). Of course, they still have to take the pre-reqs and take the MCAT regardless.

Yes, I'm aware of that, it's something I'm quite thankful for. A PA, particularly one without years of experience, is trained, as you said, to be a clinician and work with the more common afflictions and injuries. My comment about Dr. Nuland's opinion was an afterthought.

Right, which is one reason why PA programs don't care for applicants who didn't get into med school ... they want applicants who want to be PAs.

I never said there wasn't a substantial difference between a doctor and a PA, you seem to think I have an issue with that. Why wouldn't I want to admit that? Only if I had some strange ego issue, I would suppose. I chose PA because I want to be a PA ... I'm fully aware of all that can entail in my future (basically it's an eventual trade-off for less school and less loans since once you get 10-20 years in a specialty you're basically as much a provider as your doc, just with less pay). I want to take the 4s and 5s (and maybe a few 3s) and let the docs concentrate on the more difficult cases.

My original statements were cautioning the OP in thinking that getting into a PA program is all too much easier than getting into med school ... trust me, it can be just as cutthroat. I've helped interview many well-qualified applicants who simply have to be turned away due to lack of seats ... and most of them were with high GPAs, science and healthcare backgrounds.

You can goto some PA schools and avoid Ochem (provided you're not doing a bio-related for undergrad). And some will let you slide with replacing the second Ochem with Biochem. Anyhow, maybe that's the way it was at your program, but it wasn't at mine ... like you said, different experiences. It's important to stay objective. Damn, have we ever steered this thread off course but hopefully readers can learn from our discussion and the OP can better figure out their plan.

From Northwestern's site:
... so best get crackin'!

There were a mixture of majors of those that I worked with and went to school with. I had worked in different states too. I had met quite a few humanities majors, some nursing, a couple of engineers, a few biology, computer science, etc. Some schools like Northwestern have so few prerequisites that it is no problem to just add them on to whatever one wants to major in. When you start working, you will meet PAS that don't have degrees in one of the biological sciences. This computer science individual (with a bachelor's and master's in CS) just took his prereqs while working as an EMT. I find it really strange when you say that most of the PA's were bio majors.

Of course it is true that if one wants to major in chemistry or in one of the biological sciences, ochem and physics has to be taken. But, as I said earlier, I have met many that were not bio majors and didn't have to go through those courses. Now as for my school, there were many people that weren't biology majors. They may have minored in biology, but it didn't require ochem or physics for just a minor. In fact I met a PA last week with a Bachelor's in Nursing from Hawaii and he went to PA school in Washington.

 

[Starpower]

Interesting. I have of course met PA students and PAs who didn't have a bio-related undergrad, but they've been more the exception than the norm. I've worked with PAs for years though I can't honestly say I've asked them all. I will ask more often, and let you know what comes up. I know that most of my classmates did do Bio undergrads tho, I see it on their Facebook pages when I stalk them.

 

[deleted6669]

major doesn't necessarily reflect emphasis.
I was a medical anthro major and took 13 upper division bio courses. my wife was a bio major and took 11. she had to take lots of non-bio courses for the bio major that I did not. crap like pre-calc, etc
anthro at university of ca leaves you lots of room for electives. required courses are 3 lower division, 8 upper division and a thesis...out of 36 classes for a bs leaving 24 electives over 4 yrs.....

 

[bnp07]

Would it be ridiculous to become a Surg-Tech or surgical PA and THEN go back to medical school?

I just skimmed quickly so I don't know if this question has been answered yet, but PA school is a wicked expensive step to becoming a doc (we're talking 60,000-100,000+ for most PA programs). Unless you're lucky enough to live in a county that has a community college offering a certificate program (those tend to be the cheapest), I would avoid becoming a PA if all you want to do is go back to medical school.

Interesting. I have of course met PA students and PAs who didn't have a bio-related undergrad, but they've been more the exception than the norm. I've worked with PAs for years though I can't honestly say I've asked them all. I will ask more often, and let you know what comes up. I know that most of my classmates did do Bio undergrads tho, I see it on their Facebook pages when I stalk them.

I was a Recreation major who took kinesiology classes just for the heck of it, and then after graduating worked and finished up prereqs for school. From my experience, it's been about 50/50 in terms of talking with PA-Cs and S's coming from a science background.

 

[zenman]

major doesn't necessarily reflect emphasis.
I was a medical anthro major and took 13 upper division bio courses. my wife was a bio major and took 11. she had to take lots of non-bio courses for the bio major that I did not. crap like pre-calc, etc
anthro at university of ca leaves you lots of room for electives. required courses are 3 lower division, 8 upper division and a thesis...out of 36 classes for a bs leaving 24 electives over 4 yrs.....

Ya gotta love those electives...

 

[DylanAsdale]

I just skimmed quickly so I don't know if this question has been answered yet, but PA school is a wicked expensive step to becoming a doc (we're talking 60,000-100,000+ for most PA programs). Unless you're lucky enough to live in a county that has a community college offering a certificate program (those tend to be the cheapest), I would avoid becoming a PA if all you want to do is go back to medical school.

Is it true that surgical technologist first-assists really get the short end of the stick? I might make another thread just to ask, but someone previously told me that ST-FAs are shoved in the background in favor of surgical PAs these days.

If I'll never be able to make my way up to first assist, then it will defeat the whole purpose of why I'm considering surgical technology. I'd rather just go the surgical PA route and get it over with if ST-FA won't work out.

 

[SOUNDMAN]

I think when looking at competitiveness of the different health care fields, we shouldn't compare stats, but rather the number of applicants per available spot. I think that if you look at this, then yes PA school can be as "competitive" to get into as medical school.

Secondly, is it stupid to go the PA to medical school route...well it definitely takes longer, but sure makes the third and fourth year of medical school easier...trust me

 

[BruceBanner]

You need more hours of patient contact to get into PA school...

This'll blow your mind: it's almost as hard to get into the nursing schools in some areas as it is to get into the MD schools. This is due to not enough faculty, not actual prestige or worthiness of the program, but don't think that certain things are going to be easy just because it's not med school.

I know this has already been swatted down but I cant help but call BS as well.

For some reason (*cough*EGO*cough*), nurses and ancillary providers like to tell everyone how their career is 'just as hard to get into, if not harder than med school'. Please.

First of all 'hard' is subjective. You have to look at the number of applicants for each available seat to determine 'competitiveness'. Second, in terms of prereqs, grades, and standardized tests, med school is 'harder' because you are competing with the upper echelon of academic performance records. Add in the MCAT and all the other hoops you have to jump through and one can easily see why it is tougher, because more is asked of you. If it were easier, everyone would be a surgeon.

Not to say PA school admissions is easy--because it isn't--but their req's are more variable and generally not as stringent as med school. There are certainly people in PA school who are more than qualified to be in med school, but PAs are more of a mixed bag. You see a lot of folks who changed careers, some who came straight from college, and some who chose it in lieu of med school.

Also, going to PA school as a means to ultimately get into med school is ******ed. Chose one or the other.

 

[PUPPYBOY3765]

I know this has already been swatted down but I cant help but call BS as well.

For some reason (*cough*EGO*cough*), nurses and ancillary providers like to tell everyone how their career is 'just as hard to get into, if not harder than med school'. Please.

First of all 'hard' is subjective. You have to look at the number of applicants for each available seat to determine 'competitiveness'. Second, in terms of prereqs, grades, and standardized tests, med school is 'harder' because you are competing with the upper echelon of academic performance records. Add in the MCAT and all the other hoops you have to jump through and one can easily see why it is tougher, because more is asked of you. If it were easier, everyone would be a surgeon.

Not to say PA school admissions is easy--because it isn't--but their req's are more variable and generally not as stringent as med school. There are certainly people in PA school who are more than qualified to be in med school, but PAs are more of a mixed bag. You see a lot of folks who changed careers, some who came straight from college, and some who chose it in lieu of med school.

Also, going to PA school as a means to ultimately get into med school is ******ed. Chose one or the other.

Oh, not everyone that is capable of being a surgeon is interested in becoming one. As far as intelligence is concerned medicine is not the only field where the cream of the crop is. I have met people in medical school and residency who can't even fulfill the prereqs to get into an engineering program, because their math skills aren't good enough. Your math skills have to be good just to get a bachelor's in programs like math/physics, and not all people in medicine can do the work required for them. For these people to try and get a phd in these fields, forget it.

As far as getting into PA school, I see what you are saying about the prereqs varying from one school to another. These are 2 examples:

PA Northwestern Prerequisites:

Prerequisites

A overall minimum GPA of at least 2.80 (on a 4.0 GPA scale)
*

1. Biochemistry: one semester (a minimum of 3 semester hours or equivalent quarter hours)

2. Anatomy & Physiology: one full academic year (a minimum of 6 semester hours or equivalent quarter hours). This requirement may be met by taking either one semester of Anatomy and one semester of Physiology, or two semesters of Anatomy and Physiology combined.

3. Microbiology: one semester (a minimum of 3 semester hours or equivalent quarter hours)

4. Statistics: one semester (a minimum of 3 semester hours or equivalent quarter hours)

5. Medical Terminology Course

And no standardized exam.


UC Davis PA Program prereqs:

Prerequisite Courses

The following courses must be taken at the college level and completed with a grade of C or higher.
(Any courses completed by means of examination (i.e., CLEP) or experiential learning must be repeated.)

1. English Composition
any college composition course which meets the baccalaureate requirement (excluding ESL courses)
2. General Psychology
two semester units or three quarter units
3. Microbiology or Bacteriology (including lab)
three semester units or five quarter units
4. Algebra
calculus, statistics or any level of algebra will meet the math requirement with the exception of pre-algebra
5. Introduction to Sociology or Cultural Anthropology
two semester units or three quarter units
6. General Chemistry or Introduction to Chemistry (including lab)
equivalent to three semester units or five quarter units (may be taken at high school level)
7. Human Anatomy (including lab)
three semester units or five quarter units
8. Human Physiology (including lab)
three semester units or five quarter units

And no exam.

As for going PA and MD later, it is not ******ed. Many find that they want a stronger background in pathophysiology, so they go on. I didn't get into an MD program, so I went with PA. When I took the PA seat, I thought I would be satisfied with the profession. It turned out that I wanted a deeper understanding of the medical sciences and also got interested in doing research. So, I did a phd for research purposes, and later went to med school.

 

[BruceBanner]

^^No offense intended, I just meant that that if someone has med school as their ultimate goal from day one, why go the PA route first? Not very efficient.

 

[PUPPYBOY3765]

^^No offense intended, I just meant that that if someone has med school as their ultimate goal from day one, why go the PA route first? Not very efficient.

I see your point. It is true that not all PAs are interested in the details that med school will cover. And it does go into much more detail.

 

[Starpower]

Remember that the required GPA of 2.8, the minimum C for classes ... those are stated as minimum requirements for those programs, but in no way describes the typical matriculation. You also have to factor in the healthcare experience requirements that the more reputable programs still adhere to.

I have the Blueprints Step 2 Q&A for review material, because that's about the level we're at (I'm in my clinical rotation year). Add on the extra step of training at the MD/DO level, plus the residency, and there you have what makes a doctor. Physiology is one of my greatest loves, and I thought I knew it all until I sat in on grand rounds.

However, as for the "much more detail" aspect in its entirety, please explain that to the young MD attending who told me that "in no way does food poisoning ever present with fever" ... it was so easy for me to grab my large text to show her that indeed, depending on the bug, it can. Of course that's not the usual, but we all have more to learn no matter our title.

As the pediatrician of 40 years who I rotated under so succinctly stated, "I know but a drop of water in the bucket that is pediatrics".

 

[PUPPYBOY3765]

1. Remember that the required GPA of 2.8, the minimum C for classes ... those are stated as minimum requirements for those programs, but in no way describes the typical matriculation. You also have to factor in the healthcare experience requirements that the more reputable programs still adhere to.

I have the Blueprints Step 2 Q&A for review material, because that's about the level we're at (I'm in my clinical rotation year). Add on the extra step of training at the MD/DO level, plus the residency, and there you have what makes a doctor. Physiology is one of my greatest loves, and I thought I knew it all until I sat in on grand rounds.

2. However, as for the "much more detail" aspect in its entirety, please explain that to the young MD attending who told me that "in no way does food poisoning ever present with fever" ... it was so easy for me to grab my large text to show her that indeed, depending on the bug, it can. Of course that's not the usual, but we all have more to learn no matter our title.

3. As the pediatrician of 40 years who I rotated under so succinctly stated, "I know but a drop of water in the bucket that is pediatrics".

1. It still doesn't change the fact that medical school requirements are more stringent, just as another poster above stated. You can even apply to PA schools were your strengths lie. This is because the prereqs (including healthcare experience) varys so much from one program to another. As for healthcare experience, it is not always difficult to get it. A friend of mine majored in oceanography and worked for several years as a medical assistant to pay the bills. My doctor's office has a medical assistant who is going to school for a degree in education, and she did not need experience to get the position.

2. Whether you choose to believe it or not, there is a lot more detail given in medical school. PAs and PA students know this is the case, unless they are in denial. They both are not equal. MD students also have more hoops to jump through. PA students don't even take a licensing exam before entering clinicals. I went to med school feeling that I knew alot of medicine after working as a PA-C, but med school ended up being a humbling experience.

3. Noone (MD/DO/PA/NP) knows everything about every specialty. BUT, it doesn't change the fact that medical school goes much deeper in to the medical sciences than what PA school does. I will NOT change my mind about this, as I have experienced both first hand. Also, some courses in medical school were not even taught in PA school.

I am just glad that I did go on for a deeper understanding of the medical sciences. If med school did not provide a lot more detail, I would have felt that I wasted my time. Others would have too, as it is a much more rigorous and expensive process.

 

[Starpower]

[/B]

1. It still doesn't change the fact that medical school requirements are more stringent, just as another poster above stated. You can even apply to PA schools were your strengths lie. This is because the prereqs (including healthcare experience) varys so much from one program to another. As for healthcare experience, it is not always difficult to get it. A friend of mine majored in oceanography and worked for several years as a medical assistant to pay the bills. My doctor's office has a medical assistant who is going to school for a degree in education, and she did not need experience to get the position.

2. Whether you choose to believe it or not, there is a lot more detail given in medical school. PAs and PA students know this is the case, unless they are in denial. They both are not equal. MD students also have more hoops to jump through. PA students don't even take a licensing exam before entering clinicals. I went to med school feeling that I knew alot of medicine after working as a PA-C, but med school ended up being a humbling experience.

3. Noone (MD/DO/PA/NP) knows everything about every specialty. BUT, it doesn't change the fact that medical school goes much deeper in to the medical sciences than what PA school does. I will NOT change my mind about this, as I have experienced both first hand. Also, some courses in medical school were not even taught in PA school.

I am just glad that I did go on for a deeper understanding of the medical sciences. If med school did not provide a lot more detail, I would have felt that I wasted my time. Others would have too, as it is a much more rigorous and expensive process.

I guess you didn't read my statement,

Physiology is one of my greatest loves, and I thought I knew it all until I sat in on grand rounds.

What makes you think anyone doesn't "believe you or not" or that they're asking you to change your mind? You truly are starting to go off into left-field with yourself, and I hope you feel that you've made your point(s) to the degree where you're satisfied. I think you're probably much more suited for research because you don't seem to be a very good listener.

 

[Starpower]

No offense intended, I just meant that that if someone has med school as their ultimate goal from day one, why go the PA route first? Not very efficient.

Nope, not efficient at all. Plus it takes away a seat from someone who wants to be a PA.

 

[avatarftw]

a

 

[avatarftw]

...

 

[PUPPYBOY3765]

I guess you didn't read my statement,

What makes you think anyone doesn't "believe you or not" or that they're asking you to change your mind? You truly are starting to go off into left-field with yourself, and I hope you feel that you've made your point(s) to the degree where you're satisfied. I think you're probably much more suited for research because you don't seem to be a very good listener.

I have already completed a residency and I am doing well working with patients. And I plan to be conducting research, too. Thank you for the comment anyway.

 

[DylanAsdale]

I don't mean to derail the conversation or be snotty, but can we please discuss the original topic?