Which would look better and help in attaining a position?

[neurosurg777]

I have been offered two positions and was hoping that you guys would be able to advise me in which would be better to have on my CV and would also help improve my chances of matching into a program.

The first position is a non-paid volunteer research position at a major university hospital. I don't know what the research position entails yet because I have not met with them yet (have my interview today), but I know it's in the anesthesia department.

The second position is a type of externship but it's not in a major university program. It involves working at two GP clinics working up patients as well as shadowing a local physician at a major hospital. The hospital is a good/well known hospital but it's not a teaching/residency program affiliated hospital. I will essentially be doing everything you would do at an externship/during intern year, etc. but the only difference is that it's not affiliated with any program.

So which would look better on my CV and help me match into a program. I know there are no guarantees but comparatively which would be better to do?

Thanks for the help.

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[neurosurg777]

No words of wisdom from anyone? Not even gutonc or aprogdirector?

 

[salseraOB]

No words of wisdom from anyone? Not even gutonc or aprogdirector?

Because it doesn't matter. Just do whichever one you'll enjoy the most and be able to speak about with some level of passion on your interviews. IMHO, unless you cure cancer or AIDS, you're not going to get significant advantage based on activities. If you're interested in a program or specialty that values research, then clearly you need to have some research experience. Other than that, I don't think it matters.

 

[gutonc]

No words of wisdom from anyone? Not even gutonc or aprogdirector?

Well, you were a little bit too vague to provide any useful information.

What specialty?
AMG/USIMG/IMG/DO?
Where are you in school (or did you already graduate and fail to match)?
If the above is true, what else are you doing to address the weaknesses in your application?

 

[neurosurg777]

Because it doesn't matter. Just do whichever one you'll enjoy the most and be able to speak about with some level of passion on your interviews. IMHO, unless you cure cancer or AIDS, you're not going to get significant advantage based on activities. If you're interested in a program or specialty that values research, then clearly you need to have some research experience. Other than that, I don't think it matters.

Thanks for the advice. It's hard to say which I would enjoy more because one is in anesthesia and the stuff they are working on seems pretty interesting and looks like it would look good on my CV but on the other hand I would enjoy the other because I would be keeping my clinical exam/thinking skills active rather becoming rusty.

I am interested in surgery which of course many programs require you to do research and like seeing prior research but I'm not sure if they would care about anesthesia research. I have been trying to find one in surgery but it's slim pickings. Nothing has really popped up in months of looking around. I have a neurosurgery connection that I can always do research with again but since I already have that on my CV I figured that wouldn't really do any good since it's more of the same.

Thanks for your help

 

[neurosurg777]

Well, you were a little bit too vague to provide any useful information.

What specialty?
AMG/USIMG/IMG/DO?
Where are you in school (or did you already graduate and fail to match)?
If the above is true, what else are you doing to address the weaknesses in your application?

Hi Gutonc,

Sorry for that. I will try to be a little more specific and answer your questions.

1) I'm assuming you mean what specialty I am interested in? I want surgery. General surg more than likely because I know there is no way (unless you can think of) that I could do something like ortho or plastics. One guy from my school (Caribbean) after years of research and prelims, etc. was able to obtain ortho but that's one of those far and few in between inspirational stories you always hear about the one guy that did it.

2) I am a US-IMG. Went to one of the major three Caribbean schools.

3) I already graduated and failed to match this year. Tried scrambling and it didn't go so well, especially after what happened that day with the NRMP servers and the list and all. I have since applied to everything that has popped up through findaresident, residentswap, etc. with no luck.

4) As far as addressing weaknesses in my application I was hoping you can help me with that. As far as I can tell the two weaknesses I have are the school I went to, which is a weakness but considering many have matched to G-Surg in the past as well as this year then it is my second weakness that is really holding everything back. My second weakness is my board scores (just above passing). I can't really think of anything else because every time I present my CV to anyone (including attending's/physicians) they are impressed with it. So it has to be my school and the scores, more so scores, which unfortunately I can't change. Not matching obviously doesn't look good either but I didn't think that was going to happen and until it did I was doing everything I can do to match and when presenting my self to people it was all the same (impressed with CV, rotations w/ honors, great LOR's, etc.) but somehow never got any interviews. Now obviously being out of school and doing nothing doesn't look good either, which is why I am deciding between this research position and the externship.

Many advised me to try FP and I did but that didn't work either. I tried IM too but of course that was a no go. I applied to all sorts of programs including FP that had requirements of passing both steps in no more than two attempts. I figured in a place that is ok with someone who failed their boards once but passed the second time would be willing to at least interview me since I have great LOR's, passed on the first try etc. but again nothing. I think it's because they see my rotations and assume that I don't want to do FP and am just applying as a back up.

Well, hopefully this helps. If you need any more info please feel free to PM me and I can get you whatever you may need in order to help me. Thank you for your time and assistance.

 

[gutonc]

Hi Gutonc,

Sorry for that. I will try to be a little more specific and answer your questions.

1) I'm assuming you mean what specialty I am interested in? I want surgery. General surg more than likely because I know there is no way (unless you can think of) that I could do something like ortho or plastics. One guy from my school (Caribbean) after years of research and prelims, etc. was able to obtain ortho but that's one of those far and few in between inspirational stories you always hear about the one guy that did it.

2) I am a US-IMG. Went to one of the major three Caribbean schools.

3) I already graduated and failed to match this year. Tried scrambling and it didn't go so well, especially after what happened that day with the NRMP servers and the list and all. I have since applied to everything that has popped up through findaresident, residentswap, etc. with no luck.

4) As far as addressing weaknesses in my application I was hoping you can help me with that. As far as I can tell the two weaknesses I have are the school I went to, which is a weakness but considering many have matched to G-Surg in the past as well as this year then it is my second weakness that is really holding everything back. My second weakness is my board scores (just above passing). I can't really think of anything else because every time I present my CV to anyone (including attending's/physicians) they are impressed with it. So it has to be my school and the scores, more so scores, which unfortunately I can't change. Not matching obviously doesn't look good either but I didn't think that was going to happen and until it did I was doing everything I can do to match and when presenting my self to people it was all the same (impressed with CV, rotations w/ honors, great LOR's, etc.) but somehow never got any interviews. Now obviously being out of school and doing nothing doesn't look good either, which is why I am deciding between this research position and the externship.

Many advised me to try FP and I did but that didn't work either. I tried IM too but of course that was a no go. I applied to all sorts of programs including FP that had requirements of passing both steps in no more than two attempts. I figured in a place that is ok with someone who failed their boards once but passed the second time would be willing to at least interview me since I have great LOR's, passed on the first try etc. but again nothing. I think it's because they see my rotations and assume that I don't want to do FP and am just applying as a back up.

Well, hopefully this helps. If you need any more info please feel free to PM me and I can get you whatever you may need in order to help me. Thank you for your time and assistance.

OK...that helps. Now hold on to your hat, because this is going to sound mean although I don't intend it to be...but unless you want to waste the next 3 or 4 years of your life trying to get a surgery/Gas spot and winding up in the same place you are now, you should at least pretend to listen.

Carib grad and a borderline pass on the Steps essentially rules out anything competitive for you...Gen Surg, Gas, EM and even most IM and Peds programs are pretty much not going to happen for you. You can certainly go the "multiple surgery prelim years" route and hope for the best, but every year that you're out of school without a match makes you less and less competitive. Carib grads need good (220+) Step scores to get a mediocre residency spot and need stellar (250+) scores for a good spot or a more competitive residency. If you're talking about sub-200 scores, you're going to be filtered out by the vast majority of programs before they get a chance to see anything else in your application. Fair? Probably not, but that's not for you or I to say. Reality? Hell yes. You just need to accept it and move on.

So what can you do to maximize your chances of becoming a practicing physician? Adjust your application strategy and get some more experience in something that would potentially help you out.

1. Aim low. Sorry, but that's the reality of your situation. You need to apply to every FM program in the country. Your Step scores and school will likely get you filtered out at half of them or more but there's no way to know which ones a priori, so just apply. There are 449 of them (450 if you count the one in PR)...some of them (5-10% if you're lucky) are bound to offer you invitations. And then go to every single interview you're offered. Stop at 20 or 30 if you're lucky enough to get that many. And jump at pre-matches...next cycle will be the last one with pre-match options...take advantage of it.

2. Prove you can/will be happy in FM. It sounds to me like your clinical option for next year is in an FM clinic/hospitalist situation. Do that one. Get a good letter from your supervisor. No amount of great gas research will make you competitive for Gen Surg or gas programs...even if you're doing the work the the chairman or PD.

Bottom line: It's time to go to Plan B (or perhaps Plan C) unless you want to go to Plan D(efault on your loans). Your chances of being a surgeon or anesthesiologist in the US curently approach your chances of winning the NBA MVP trophy by 2015. None of my suggestions will guarantee you a spot of course but they will help improve your chances.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

As usual, another insightful post by GutOnc.

I'll agree completely with him, with a few additions and a single disagreement.

I actually think using USMLE scores to help choose residents is a relatively fair system. It's a standardized test that everyone gets to take, regardless of what medical school you went to. Everyone has the same chance of doing well, or not. There are lots of very unfair things I could use to select residents -- the "prestige" of your medical school, your hobbies, how cute you are in your pic, etc. Grades are highly variable at schools, and LOR's are always "great". I have no idea whether your PS was truly written by you. So, all in all, USMLE's are probably the fairest option. That DOESN'T mean that they are a good way to predict whom will do well and whom won't, but that's something different (although, IMHO, low scores are more associated with poor performance).

Anyway, GutOnc lays it out well. GS is basically a dead end for you, and no interviews should tell you all you need to know. You can't "fix" your application. You could apply to prelim surgery spots -- in that case your entire outcome will rest upon the ABSITE exam, and if you had troubles with the USMLE you're not going to like the ABSITE. A poor score on that will doom any chance of a GS spot, no matter how much you "impress" people.

So, your goal is to change your application so that it looks clear that you're interested in FM. You might get some interest from IM programs also, and peds and/or psych might be options also. You need to make your application look like you're interested in one of these -- no one wants an intern who shows up on day one and announces that they are looking to switch fields.

 

[neurosurg777]

OK...that helps. Now hold on to your hat, because this is going to sound mean although I don't intend it to be...but unless you want to waste the next 3 or 4 years of your life trying to get a surgery/Gas spot and winding up in the same place you are now, you should at least pretend to listen.

Carib grad and a borderline pass on the Steps essentially rules out anything competitive for you...Gen Surg, Gas, EM and even most IM and Peds programs are pretty much not going to happen for you. You can certainly go the "multiple surgery prelim years" route and hope for the best, but every year that you're out of school without a match makes you less and less competitive. Carib grads need good (220+) Step scores to get a mediocre residency spot and need stellar (250+) scores for a good spot or a more competitive residency. If you're talking about sub-200 scores, you're going to be filtered out by the vast majority of programs before they get a chance to see anything else in your application. Fair? Probably not, but that's not for you or I to say. Reality? Hell yes. You just need to accept it and move on.

So what can you do to maximize your chances of becoming a practicing physician? Adjust your application strategy and get some more experience in something that would potentially help you out.

1. Aim low. Sorry, but that's the reality of your situation. You need to apply to every FM program in the country. Your Step scores and school will likely get you filtered out at half of them or more but there's no way to know which ones a priori, so just apply. There are 449 of them (450 if you count the one in PR)...some of them (5-10% if you're lucky) are bound to offer you invitations. And then go to every single interview you're offered. Stop at 20 or 30 if you're lucky enough to get that many. And jump at pre-matches...next cycle will be the last one with pre-match options...take advantage of it.

2. Prove you can/will be happy in FM. It sounds to me like your clinical option for next year is in an FM clinic/hospitalist situation. Do that one. Get a good letter from your supervisor. No amount of great gas research will make you competitive for Gen Surg or gas programs...even if you're doing the work the the chairman or PD.

Bottom line: It's time to go to Plan B (or perhaps Plan C) unless you want to go to Plan D(efault on your loans). Your chances of being a surgeon or anesthesiologist in the US curently approach your chances of winning the NBA MVP trophy by 2015. None of my suggestions will guarantee you a spot of course but they will help improve your chances.

Hey, thanks for the advice. You don't sound mean at all. I never even thought of applying for anesthesia because I knew I was not even in the stratosphere of being competitive enough to interview anywhere. The only reason I applied to the research position was because it was the only thing I found after months of searching and everyone kept on saying do something because doing nothing looks worse.

I absolutely agree with you which is why, albeit reluctantly, I am trying to do things to increase my chance for FP because as much as I want to do surgery, know I would be good at it, and can feel like it isn't fair, the reality is what you said. Of course it sucks to know that I will never live up to my full potential but what can I do. It is what it is and I have to move on.

So if my understanding is correct you think my time would be better spent working in the GP office and externing at the hospital with their physician rather than the research experience even though it's not a program affiliated office (like someone at UCLA, USC, etc.), while the research position is associated with a major university.

I actually interviewed for the research position because I figured it's better to have too many options rather than none and they gave it to me. So now I have to decide to either abandon it and concentrate on the other position or spread my time between both. I was leaning towards both but if the research position and a letter from them wont do me any good for FP then I guess I will let it go. What I am worried about is that I concentrate my time on the externship and get a LOR from them as well as some good experience but in the end it ends up counting for nothing because programs will not care about it all that much because it's from a GP. My understanding always was that LOR's in order of importance was PD's > Attendings > Private/Outside physician. Which why I was thinking the research would be good because it would get me a LOR from an attending at a major university.

I have one other option for research/externship but I didn't use it because I have already done stuff with them and have a LOR from the attending that I used for this years match. The attending is the pediatric neurosurgeon at CHLA as well as a professor at USC so the residents as part of their program always rotate through there as part of their residency curriculum. In fact I was the first student at my school to be able to do a rotation at USC because he helped me get it and in turn because of my hard work and them liking me I was able to get a LOR from the PD/Attending of USC's neurosurg program. I figured that wouldn't do me any good because it was more of the same.

I hear you on the applying and that's my plan. That was my plan this year too but I tried more so with GS and IM and a few FP. I had a lot of people, even on here recommend that I apply to GS because the others wont be as easy because I have a surgery application and that at the very least I will get a prelim spot during the scramble. Well as I'm sure you know after the way this years scramble went I ended up with nothing. This year I will do only FP.

 

[neurosurg777]

As usual, another insightful post by GutOnc.

I'll agree completely with him, with a few additions and a single disagreement.

I actually think using USMLE scores to help choose residents is a relatively fair system. It's a standardized test that everyone gets to take, regardless of what medical school you went to. Everyone has the same chance of doing well, or not. There are lots of very unfair things I could use to select residents -- the "prestige" of your medical school, your hobbies, how cute you are in your pic, etc. Grades are highly variable at schools, and LOR's are always "great". I have no idea whether your PS was truly written by you. So, all in all, USMLE's are probably the fairest option. That DOESN'T mean that they are a good way to predict whom will do well and whom won't, but that's something different (although, IMHO, low scores are more associated with poor performance).

Anyway, GutOnc lays it out well. GS is basically a dead end for you, and no interviews should tell you all you need to know. You can't "fix" your application. You could apply to prelim surgery spots -- in that case your entire outcome will rest upon the ABSITE exam, and if you had troubles with the USMLE you're not going to like the ABSITE. A poor score on that will doom any chance of a GS spot, no matter how much you "impress" people.

So, your goal is to change your application so that it looks clear that you're interested in FM. You might get some interest from IM programs also, and peds and/or psych might be options also. You need to make your application look like you're interested in one of these -- no one wants an intern who shows up on day one and announces that they are looking to switch fields.

Thank you for the help as well aprog. I agree with you. I can only imagine how much worse it would be if people were chosen on other aspects like the prestige of the school they went to or how cute they are in there pic. Although I would probably get more interviews if that last one was really used. I'm kidding of course, just a little levity in a sad and what feels like hopeless situation. You're right good scores don't mean that they are a good way to predict who will do well and who wont. If that was true I wouldn't have honored all my rotations and done better than my classmates that scored higher and all of a sudden hated me in clinicals becuase they didn't feel so superior anymore now that the attending thought I was the better student rather than just merely their grades or scores being better than mine. However, that being said scores among all the other options that exist today are probably the best choice for leveling the playing field. Although, IMHO there is a better way than what our current system is based on but that would require radical change in the field and for people to change their mentality, teaching style, and personality.

I do have a question though. You said you believe that low scores are more associated with poor performance. Do you mean poor performance on subsequent exams, as a resident, or both. I ask because you did say that doesn't mean that USMLE's are a good way to predict who will do well but that's something different.

My troubles with the USMLE were more with me rather than the test itself. My issue was reading speed, not knowledge. I walked out of CK knowing 90% of the answers and knew I could have scored highly if it wasn't for the time. I know it sounds like an excuse but that has always been my problem. The time it takes for me to read and comprehend the question is much slower than my average student counterpart. Funny you should say problem with the ABSITE because during my GS rotation once in a while as part of lectures and what not the residents would have the med students sit in on their ABSITE review days and one of the residents who liked me, thought I did a great job and knew my stuff would toss the question out to me and I would answer them correctly. Obviously not 100% of the time, I'm no genius, that's for sure but I would get the questions right most of the time. I think because in a relaxed atmosphere with no time pressure I was able to read the question and the answer would flow through my head more clearly. So again I think if I would have any problem with the ABSITE and end up scoring low it would be due to that rather than an actual problem with the material or knowledge. Somehow though I still always manage to pass. No matter what they do. I say that because I remember that always happening to me on standardized exams. I recall saying to myself that watch even though they raised the minimum pass on CK I will still manage to just barely pass. If I was truly a poor performer then I would think that I would fail more times than just pass. Especially if they raise the bar, but somehow no matter what they do I still manage to just barely pass. I am willing to bet that if they had raised the minimum pass to 220 that I would have ended up getting 222. I don't know if it's a fluke or what. Maybe I have just been lucky. Anyways, enough of my rants.

I do have one more question for you. How would you suggest I change my application so that it looks clear that I am interested in one of the other fields. I'm assuming based on that comment that you think my time would be better spent at the externship rather than the research position? Any other things you suggest that I can do to help me change all that? If you think I can get some interest from IM by changing a few things I am more than willing to do it. I feel like my future options in IM would be better than FP.

Thank you again for all your help.

 

[smq123]

I absolutely agree with you which is why, albeit reluctantly, I am trying to do things to increase my chance for FP because as much as I want to do surgery, know I would be good at it, and can feel like it isn't fair, the reality is what you said. Of course it sucks to know that I will never live up to my full potential but what can I do. It is what it is and I have to move on.

If you want a shot at a decent FM position, you will have to rearrange your thinking.

Being a good surgeon is difficult, but so is being a good family doctor. Being a good family doctor is, in no way, not going to allow you to live up to your "full potential."

Having interviewed applicants for FM residency positions, someone with a background like yours, who feels the way that you do, has a hard time hiding the feeling that being in FM is "not as good," or "second best." And those applicants all wound up on the bottom of our rank list, if they ended up on the rank list at all.

Instead of deciding now, definitively, that you're going to apply for FM, why not shadow and volunteer in an FM clinic? If you find that you might truly have some kind of passion for it, it's infinitely better than applying for it because you think it's the only thing you could get.

 

[Buzz Me]

A lot of people also forget that "doing research" in order to bolster the CV only works if you're jumping into a pre-established project or a productive lab...and usually if you're not reapplying for a while. If you didn't match this year and are going to reapply again this fall, there's no way you'll have achieved anything significant (poster, abstract, publication, etc.) by then. The most you'd have is a so-so LOR. Is this your goal?

 

[neurosurg777]

If you want a shot at a decent FM position, you will have to rearrange your thinking.

Being a good surgeon is difficult, but so is being a good family doctor. Being a good family doctor is, in no way, not going to allow you to live up to your "full potential."

Having interviewed applicants for FM residency positions, someone with a background like yours, who feels the way that you do, has a hard time hiding the feeling that being in FM is "not as good," or "second best." And those applicants all wound up on the bottom of our rank list, if they ended up on the rank list at all.

Instead of deciding now, definitively, that you're going to apply for FM, why not shadow and volunteer in an FM clinic? If you find that you might truly have some kind of passion for it, it's infinitely better than applying for it because you think it's the only thing you could get.

Hey, don't get me wrong. I didn't mean it that way. I think each specialty of medicine has it's value and place and that by no means is being good in one make you better or worse than another. What I meant by full potential was being able to develop and hone my operational skills. I am actually really good with my hands and was always the best in surgery. Every resident and attending always said I was way better than the other students and there were many times they trusted me with tasks that are reserved for them or residents in the program. I remember a student who according to her wasn't interested in surgery but I guess was just competitive, getting angry, envious, whatever you want to call it when the attending gave me a case because he thought I would do better. Or when another attending automatically assumed I will be scrubbing in with him on a case and when I said no because I want to be fair to the other students and that we are taking turns saying of course no problem, I know you would do every case with me if you could though. That attending would allow me to drape without him being in the OR, set up, and do the case by the time I showed him once or twice that I could do it. Or when one of the plastics attending's stopped me in the hall and asked if I wasn't busy and that he could use a hand for a case. The first time he did that I would say was just to be nice cause he needed help but if I wasn't good I can't imagine him asking a second or even third time, let alone the third time he didn't guide me anymore and just let me go at it and we did the operation like two surgeons working together. That was an awesome feeling to have such a good educator that is willing to put you on his same level so that you can learn rather than the usual subordinate position most residents and attending's make you feel like. I also remember a time in an ortho case that the attending saw that I was doing well with the case, turned around and began to tell a joke to the entire OR, leaving me to do the work. The funny thing is that it was the first time I was working with him so it's not like he knew me and trusted me. Well enough of my ranting. What I mean is that obviously I have some skill and to know that it will never be used in that way again or developed to it's full potential just makes me sad. I know these stories probably seem stupid to you guys but as a med student it gives you some confidence and makes you feel good during a time that you are trying to do your best that is mixed with feelings like fear, satisfaction, etc.

Please don't get me wrong. I don't think FP is second best or not as good. I liked my FP rotation and had similar experiences in it with residents trusting me more than other students and attending's liking me more than others. I just love operating but many people who know me actually constantly tell me I should go into FP because of my personality. That I would be great at it because of my people skills in addition to other attributes. So please don't think I look at it that way.

That is exactly why I started the thread because I wanted to know between the research position and the externship which would serve me better. I agree with you, finding out that I have a passion for it is infinitely better but regardless of my passion if all I can get is that then I can't really dictate. For example, regardless of my passion for ortho and how much I can't see myself doing anything else than that, in the end if i will never get it and end up wasting years trying to, what good does it do to continue to try. In that case you have to accept your fate and what you can get and do. Ortho was just an example, don't take it to mean that I want it. The externship would give me the opportunity to do what you said but at the same time I also want to do something that will also help my chances of getting in. I want to make a move up, not just a lateral one.

 

[neurosurg777]

A lot of people also forget that "doing research" in order to bolster the CV only works if you're jumping into a pre-established project or a productive lab...and usually if you're not reapplying for a while. If you didn't match this year and are going to reapply again this fall, there's no way you'll have achieved anything significant (poster, abstract, publication, etc.) by then. The most you'd have is a so-so LOR. Is this your goal?

You are absolutely right which is why I had the same concern before interviewing there. They actually have three projects going on right now so hopefully I will be able to achieve something significant rather than a so-so LOR. They are actually trying to make certain deadlines and said I would get a poster, abstract, publication, etc. if I really take charge and can get things moving. The last guy stayed for only two months. I think from what I can gather that it's not your typical research position. They want and need someone who can take the initiative and push to get things done.

Of course that's not my goal, which is why I posted to see which would be the better move, research or the externship.

 

[ROBINHO]

You are absolutely right which is why I had the same concern before interviewing there. They actually have three projects going on right now so hopefully I will be able to achieve something significant rather than a so-so LOR. They are actually trying to make certain deadlines and said I would get a poster, abstract, publication, etc. if I really take charge and can get things moving. The last guy stayed for only two months. I think from what I can gather that it's not your typical research position. They want and need someone who can take the initiative and push to get things done.

Of course that's not my goal, which is why I posted to see which would be the better move, research or the externship.

When are u applying? This year or next year?
If u applying this year then maybe lets say u may be lucky to get a recoomendation letter(Just that)

If your target is next year...then I think u are in a similar situation as I was last year. This is my story...between March and May last year...I worked like crazy in the research and was extremely lucky to have 2 abstracts as 2nd author in an Intl meeting.

As u can see I had a fantastic start, coupled with working in a reputable institution with good data,...the application cycle is here and I only have one publication(in press) as 5th author. The past one year I have been busting my azz off on like 3-4 manuscripts and they arent anywhere near being published. I expect maybe 2 to be published next year and 2 in 2 years time.

What I am trying to say is that...sometimes dont believe this talk of...if u work hard u will publish. There is nothing like easy publishing. My 5th authorship that got accepted recently was submitted some 6 months ago. If u want publication, just bear in mind that they might come long after u in residency. If u want instant impact on your residency chances...I say externship

PS: To be fair, I have to admit that,apart from those early abstracts...I accumulated another 3. But like I said, the data was already there for me to write them. It isnt always like that.

 

[Buzz Me]

You are absolutely right which is why I had the same concern before interviewing there. They actually have three projects going on right now so hopefully I will be able to achieve something significant rather than a so-so LOR.

Honestly? If you haven't started the research project yet, and you're trying to get your application complete by this September/October...well it's just not going to happen. Poster/presentation deadlines for meetings are usually at least a month or two in advance. If you pound out some work right now you may get an abstract accepted somewhere...but it's a long shot. Have you even started reading about the potential research projects yet?

 

[neurosurg777]

When are u applying? This year or next year?
If u applying this year then maybe lets say u may be lucky to get a recoomendation letter(Just that)

If your target is next year...then I think u are in a similar situation as I was last year. This is my story...between March and May last year...I worked like crazy in the research and was extremely lucky to have 2 abstracts as 2nd author in an Intl meeting.

As u can see I had a fantastic start, coupled with working in a reputable institution with good data,...the application cycle is here and I only have one publication(in press) as 5th author. The past one year I have been busting my azz off on like 3-4 manuscripts and they arent anywhere near being published. I expect maybe 2 to be published next year and 2 in 2 years time.

What I am trying to say is that...sometimes dont believe this talk of...if u work hard u will publish. There is nothing like easy publishing. My 5th authorship that got accepted recently was submitted some 6 months ago. If u want publication, just bear in mind that they might come long after u in residency. If u want instant impact on your residency chances...I say externship

PS: To be fair, I have to admit that,apart from those early abstracts...I accumulated another 3. But like I said, the data was already there for me to write them. It isnt always like that.

Hey, thanks for the advice. It really helped. I am applying this year. They are currently working on three projects so maybe I will get lucky like you but it will probably go like you said. Everybody keeps on saying the same thing and I don't want an average LOR either. That's kind of why I'm torn. Obviously if I got all that done it would look better and I would have just stayed with the research but since you guys are saying it probably won't happen then I am not sure which will look better just as an activity.

1) research with a major university that has residency programs
or
2) working with a physician in the office and in the hospital they are associated with

I can see pros and cons for both. Like you said, the research won't happen in time to get me all those things, abstracts, presentation, etc. in time for it to be really beneficial for my application but at the same time the name looks good on my CV. However, my other option gets me to work as a physician keeping my skills up to date so that programs don't look at me like I have been sitting around losing all my clinical skills but it's with a no name place so I can see them being unimpressed with that.

Thanks for telling me your story. Having stuff published even after I'm in residency would be good as well as if I am as lucky as you but like you said I need instant impact so the externship seems like it may be the better choice. I am meeting with them on tuesday so I will see all the details then and be able to make a better decision.

 

[neurosurg777]

Honestly? If you haven't started the research project yet, and you're trying to get your application complete by this September/October...well it's just not going to happen. Poster/presentation deadlines for meetings are usually at least a month or two in advance. If you pound out some work right now you may get an abstract accepted somewhere...but it's a long shot. Have you even started reading about the potential research projects yet?

I haven't started it because I am still working on all the clearance paperwork (I've worked in three different hospitals and this has the most, it's crazy) but they already have three that they have been working on. They had a guy before me but he was there for only two months because he got lucky and got into a position somewhere so he had to leave. All I have to do is add my name to the stuff he was working on. You're probably right though. I'm more than likely not going to get as much done as I would like so that it really helps my application which is why I am leaning towards the other position. Yeah I have read about them and they have three going on right now, one of which is actually kind of a big deal. So it could be a good thing but like you said probably not in time.

 

[ROBINHO]

I think u have to be clear what kind of research is this?
If it is clinical and u will have contact with patients...then I think it is good.If the Professor writes in the letter that u have good communication skills, good history taking etc...then it is better than just going to observe somebody somewhere...becos this could have some hands-on component

And also how many MDs are u gonna have contact with? If u can have contact with lets say 2-3 and u can get them all to vouch for u going into residency...then I think it is as good as 3 months of observership to try and get 3 letters. Plus the advantage of possibly publishing which can help u down the road.

 

[neurosurg777]

I think u have to be clear what kind of research is this?
If it is clinical and u will have contact with patients...then I think it is good.If the Professor writes in the letter that u have good communication skills, good history taking etc...then it is better than just going to observe somebody somewhere...becos this could have some hands-on component

And also how many MDs are u gonna have contact with? If u can have contact with lets say 2-3 and u can get them all to vouch for u going into residency...then I think it is as good as 3 months of observership to try and get 3 letters. Plus the advantage of possibly publishing which can help u down the road.

The research is in anesthesia and it is clinical and I will have contact with patients. I will be administering any meds that are part of the research topic, using any equipment that may be necessary as well as obtaining consent and speaking with patients, among any other duties that may arise. That is what everyone is saying but that a letter like that is just so so and that publications, presentations, etc. are the real benefit in research positions and that it's probably not going to happen because of the amount of time.

The other position is not just observing. I have patient contact there as well. In fact I probably will have more contact at the clinic. They are treating me like a full MD and I am doing everything including simple things that I never was able to perfect in med school like drawing blood for labs. I am seeing patients, writing up their H&P's or progress notes, coming up with diagnoses and treatment plans and ordering any labs that may be needed. Of course all of this is under the guidance and supervision of the clinics physician.

At the research position it will be with one MD directly but since it's anesthesia at a major university hospital I will probably meet and have some interaction with the other attendings in the dept. as well as other attendings and residents in the hospital, especially surgery considering that's where most their time is spent. The clinic will be just one MD. I had more than four attendings, one of which was a program director vouch for me this year when I applied and it didn't work out so I am kind of skeptical of that. The publishing aspect though is definitely an advantage.